190 / Nesrine Changuel: How Product Delight Drives Business Outcomes

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Yeah. Time is really flying. But it's really flying for you because you've been kind of traveling around the world promoting your book. Tell us. Oh, kind of just traveling around and promoting, uh, promoting your book. Delight.

Speaker C: Well, uh, it is a very intense experience. I mean I, uh, it was like a lot of discovery throughout the entire journey, like when I was writing the book itself, there have been of course, some uncertainties about how this would be perceived, how this will land among the product community. And you know, this kind of like a, uh, like a chocolate egg when you open. You have no idea. It was a little bit like that. What surprised me in a very positive way is that people perceived the topic in a very deep way and almost like quite personally. Of course it felt like the emotion that are in the book are speaking to everyone in every industry.

Speaker B: What did you learn from the product community about your concept? Were there things were like, hey, I. In the, in my next version of this book, I'm going to update these things or I want to expand on something.

Speaker C: Yeah. So when I wrote the book, I was highly and very much inspired by my own experience itself. Like I've been building products that are, um, globally used and loved by many people, like from Skype, the Spotify, Google Meet and Google Chrome. So to be honest with you, that shaped a lot my thinking, but also shaped a lot the content of the book. And the thing that I was a little bit worried about is like, how would that concept and how would that framework apply to other industries and other type of products? The type of industry that got interested in the topic has been extremely different and diverse, which was a proof for me that talking about emotional connection is a topic that is universal, but also like, uh, connect all industries together.

Speaker B: You are coming to Rochester soon for our, uh, ITX Product and Design conference. What can people expect from your workshop?

Speaker C: By the way, I'm really excited for this event to come. Uh, it's always a pleasure to teach this method. I've been teaching it at different places and different countries so far. And coming, uh, to the conference is a pleasure, of course, and it's going to be quite special because, uh, what I'm obsessed about while giving my workshop is I want to make it as much actionable as I can. Meaning that it's true that most of my talks are about inspiration because, like, I want to make sure that I inspire people.

Speaker A: Um, and then the second day of conference you get to be up on the main stage giving a keynote. Yeah, any, any sneak peek that you can offer.

Speaker C: I'M going to talk for the very first time about something I have not spoken about before, which is how to add the light in your AI products. So, uh, I've been very quiet about AI over the last couple of months. Like, I really believed in the humanization and the human asp. But now the product is the conversation. I mean, if you see how you're using Cloud or how you're using ChatGPT, the product itself is becoming the conversation itself. And so how can we add delight in these kind of experiences? That's something new that I'm going to be talking about.

Speaker B: Dan, we just caught up with Nezrin Shangal. She was on the pod over a year ago, right before her book, Product Delight, hit the market. She's been on an international book tour and learning a lot in the process.

Speaker A: Yeah, so much fun getting to catch up with her. And I'm excited we get to meet her in real life when she comes to Rochester for the ITX Product Design Conference, June 24th, 25th. Uh, she's going to be doing an amazing workshop and then doing a keynote on the main stage. She's got some really cool stuff coming out, so it's going to be great.

Speaker B: Yeah, first time she's talking about this topic. It's going to be awesome. We look forward to seeing you there. Hey, Nazreen, you're back. Welcome back to the Product Momentum podcast.

Speaker C: Thank you. I can't believe it's almost a year since we chatted all this podcast.

Speaker B: Yeah, time is really flying. But it's really flying for you because you've been kind of traveling around the world promoting your book.

Speaker C: Tell us.

Speaker B: Kind of just traveling around and, uh, promoting your book Delight.

Speaker C: Well, it is a very intense experience. I mean, uh, it was like a lot of discovery throughout the entire journey, like when I was writing the book itself. There have been, of course, some uncertainties about how this would be perceived, how this will land among the product community. And, you know, this kind of like a. Like a chocolate egg when you open. You have no idea. It was a little bit like that. And, uh, to be honest with you, I enjoyed every single moment of that from the launch date, like the date the book was completely out on Amazon, till, like, the other days and months that follow that. Because, um, what surprised me in a very positive way is that people perceived the topic in a very deep way and almost like, quite personally. Of course, it felt like the emotion that are in the book are speaking to everyone in every industry. So, uh, maybe that's what made the Success of the book itself.

Speaker A: That's awesome.

Speaker B: What did you learn from the product community about your concept? Were there things were like hey, I. In the, in my next version of this book I'm going to update these things or I want to expand on something.

Speaker C: Yeah. So when I wrote the book I was highly and very much inspired by my own experience itself. Like I've been building products that are globally used and loved by many people like from Skype, Spotify, Google Meet and Google Chrome. So to be honest with you, that shaped a lot my thinking but also shaped a lot the content of the book. And the thing that I was a little bit worried about is like how would that concept and how would that framework apply to other industries and other type of products? And so when the book went out, I've got and received a lot of feedbacks that actually related to the topic and related to the framework, even if they are completely from other industry. Just to give you maybe um, uh, an example of what I'm talking about. I was giving workshop about product delight to companies that build project tracking software for constructions and also gave the same workshop for companies that built software for baby showers list. And I mean the type of industry that got interested in the topic has been extremely different and diverse which was a proof for me that talking about emotional connection is a topic that is universal but also like connect all industries together.

Speaker A: I'd love to, I would love to hear more about that and you know, maybe just like what you've learned as somebody uh, who develops product, having suddenly having this exposure to kind of the broad world of software development. Kind of industry agnostic.

Speaker C: Yeah. So the first thing that I learned is that there have been a lot of misconceptions. Uh, when I started talking about the light a lot of people came for curiosity as well. Like what does this, this person mean with product delight? And they just didn't come with zero knowledge. They came with bias and misconception. And I realized that there are three key misconceptions that I noticed throughout different events and different like uh, um, community gathering and networks. The first one is that a lot of people connect the light to the aesthetic element. They think of the light as the confetti, as the design, as the Easter eggs and everything that, that are visual. And to be honest with you, this is very different from my own definition of product delight. Product delight is the entire experience is actually the feeling that user would experience while using the product. It doesn't have to do anything with the design itself or like the visual itself. So that's the first misconception. The second misconception is some people also connect the light to gamification. They actually think that uh, I mean if I add a lot of gamification in my product that would delight my customers. And I was there saying actually it's the exact opposite. I mean to be honest, if I'm scrolling forever on Instagram and I'm getting like a notification saying hey, you should probably use your time in a better way. That's delight. You see what I mean? So delight is about again making people feel good while using the product. However, gamification is about making people stay in the product which is complete different aspect. And just to finish with the misconceptions, I mean the third one which was very strong, a lot of people connected the light to B2C. And so uh, the fact that I ended up speaking in big companies like Miro or Atlassian and Those are like B2B product was a proof that we live in the world that people are also expecting their emotion to be honored in a B2B space. Uh, that's why like I've been talking a lot about B2H ah, which is business to human. And as long as the product is used by a human being then of course they deserve their emotion to be honored. And these are the key learning. I mean I learned that people are coming with misconception. I was really honored to try to at least clarify these and make sure that no again we need to build product that make people feel good.

Speaker B: Yeah, I uh, I'm going to cheat because Dan and I also like have a consulting responsibility. So like this, the idea of like making people feel good while using the product, but not necessarily making them like feel like they're in a game or achieving something with the product. And this concept of like B to H, I really love those. I want to know what were some of the barriers that you had to break down in order to get people to understand those concepts a little bit more at the level that you're trying to, at the level that you're trying to raise awareness to.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it was really important to speak product people language and give them the metrics that they all care about. I mean let's be honest, the concept of emotional connection is not new. Uh, when we talk about emotional connection, this is a very well covered topic in design. Um, designers know exactly what it means to build like emotional design. Uh, when it comes to marketers, the same like the very best marketing campaign are those who taps into users emotion. I Mean, think of Coca Cola or uh, Disney, I mean how they do uh, marketing and ads. It's all about emotions. The problem is that uh, most people who actually came to my talks, et cetera, they came with this concept of, I mean emotions are not our priority in our business and our strategy and our everyday life. So for me, I had that mission of making all those different functions talk the same language and uh, make sure that we achieve that goal of emotional connection. And so to achieve that, it was very important for me to evoke and talk about the metric that business and product people care about. And these are usually retention, revenue, referral. And luckily, and that's also proven by science and a lot of example, the light itself can double retention, referral and revenues. And so I think that was the thing that really uh, was more like eyes opening for those people and say, okay, I care about revenue referral and retention, so I should probably give it a try.

Speaker A: I think uh, you said something there that or it really resonated me. Uh, the, the emotional connection piece. Right. And we have this concept of advocacy and like, you think about like your product, you've used that like you don't feel anything. You don't feel anything when you stop using it either. Right. Like, you know, but, but if you care, right, like, oh, this is great, like you're going to tell your friends about it, right? You're going to, you're going to pay for it. Um, so I think unlocking in that framework is just like, it's a really powerful message for me as a product person.

Speaker B: Yeah. I also love the way that the metrics that you're talking about really actually tie back to do. Tie back to business outcomes.

Speaker C: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that's, that's it, right? Just the whole, your workshop is going to go the whole, the whole gamut of hey concept to. We're going to, you know, create amazing business change. Um, just, just a small, just a small set of topics to cover in one workshop.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You are coming to Rochester soon for our itx, uh, Product and Design conference. What can people expect from your workshop?

Speaker C: Oh yes. By the way, I'm really excited for this event to come. Uh, it's always a pleasure to teach this method. I've been teaching it uh, at different places and different countries so far. And coming. The conference is a pleasure of course, and it's going to be quite special because uh, what I'm obsessed about while giving my workshop is I want to make it as much actionable as I can. Meaning that it's true that most of my talks are about inspiration because like, I want to make sure that I inspire people. I want to make sure that people get and get hooked into this kind of topic and at least give them the appetite to try it out for their product. But when it comes to workshop, we get hands dirty. I mean it feels weird to say hands dirty in delight, but uh, I mean let's use the term. So we alternate between concept, learn about the framework, the different steps, and then try out, try these concepts on group activities. And uh, it's funny because for my workshop, some people decide to take like a case studies, others decide to work on their own products so we can apply those concepts on their own product and get out of the workshop with concrete ideas of how you can add more delight in your own product. And that's completely up to the audience, how they want to practice and how they want uh, to uh, implement these concepts during the exercise sessions.

Speaker A: That's going to be a tremendous workshop. Um, and then the second day of the conference you get to be up on the main stage giving a keynote. Yeah, any sneak peek that you can offer. Um, I'm really pumped to hear what you have to say.

Speaker C: I'm going to talk for the very first time about something I have not spoken about before, which is how to add the light in your AI products. So I've been very quiet about AI over the last couple of months. I really believed in the humanization and the human aspect. But now the product is the conversation. I mean if you see how you're using Claude or how you're using ChatGPT, the product itself is becoming the conversation itself. And so how can we add delight in these kind of experiences? That's something new that I'm going to be talking about.

Speaker B: Well, we love being brave and talking about things and that you are going to bring a new concept to us for the first time. The keynote day is really my, one of my favorite days of the year. We get, you know, 200 people in the ballroom in the big space. There's a lot of moving around and we've got some new concepts this year. So uh, around like the way that we've designed the ballroom space. So we're pretty excited for that. But we really appreciate you bringing kind of like, like uh, a learning by doing method to your workshop because that's what the workshop day people are really looking for. Those opportunities not just to like learn directly from somebody, but to actively do something where they're either following a scenario or they're using their own experience or their own products against the concepts that they're learning. And it's a huge day for, it's a huge day for everybody that gets to attend. So really appreciate you being a part of that. And we're also excited to have you in Rochester, New York during the International Jazz Fest. So I don't know what your schedule is, but the streets will be shut down. Right. People will be outside having a good time over the weather cooperates this year, but it's going to be, it's going to be a great experience. Uh, one last thing that I wanted to touch on is as you are moving between different international audiences, right. Because you are based in France, right. You're going to be coming to the U.S. do you notice anything like any regional differences about the approach to product or the approach to producing things that delight people?

Speaker C: I don't think it's a matter of country or like a cultural aspect. It's a matter of maturity of the company that I want to talk about. So yes, I was g. Giving talks and uh, uh, workshop at different level and different like industry from different uh, stages and maturities. And what I noticed is that um, most companies that are quite mature and they are very well established struggle to add delight rather than like those that are like a uh, more in a startup phase where they want to add that delight concept as soon as possible and uh, build that brand and personality that will immediately connect with people at the emotional level. Uh, at least that's what I noticed so far. Even if I still believe that whether you are mature or not, there are some concepts. I mean I developed a framework, I spent a lot of uh, years working on that framework to make sure that it's actually actionable for all industries. Even if it's easier when it's built from the start. I mean think about Slack or like uh, those companies that were born with delight in mind. Of course this will help a lot with the adoption and retention. But if you're established, you're already like in a good state because you have a good uh, customer base and you're already successful in your space, but you need to stand out in order to maintain them. And so that's why it's not because you're establishing that you should ignore the light, but rather in order to keep being established and like be. Keep being successful, you need to add those uh, element of delight in your product anyway.

Speaker A: Almost like companies that are you know, kind of starting up, they're, they're delight native if you will. Yeah. So I'M curious with that. You mentioned that this, the struggle, uh, you know, of a large established company bringing delight in. What about the tension of a company, right, that that's building a product they're building delight in and losing that. Like, how do they make sure that they maintain that focus over time and don't become a large company that's kind of lost delight as one of their core principles?

Speaker C: Well, uh, in my case, I had different way of building delight, whether at Spotify or at Google. And both experiences are extremely different, by the way. For example, at, uh, Google, I had a very special role where I was actually the product leader for Delight. I know that very rare company do like a, uh, higher. An entire job and an entire team for building the light. But for me it was a special moment where I really had to focus on that, make it my own priority. And there was no priority conflict. So let's not think too much about that. At Spotify, on the other hand, I was a regular pm sitting on a backlog on fire with so many priorities conflicting with each other's. But that did not stop us from always like challenging ourselves and having a special look at the roadmap and say, is there any element of delight in my roadmap? Not this quarter. I should definitely catch up and make sure that this doesn't remain. And I want to make sure that I will bring that delight in a regular basis. So what made Spotify successful and what is making it successful, or other companies, by the way you might think of, is the fact that they think about the light as a continuous way. It's not like sprinkling joy on top of utility from time to time. It's about having it as part of a culture. I mean, I call it today the culture of delight. So pushing your employees and your teams and your product teams to make sure and think about delight and also even challenge their roadmap and ask, are there elements of delight in your roadmap? If not, I mean, don't punish them, but at least show that you care because this is how you establish a culture of delight. And so, uh, whether you have like a complete dedicated delight role, in that case good for you or not, there are still always options to think delight and think emotionally within your product.

Speaker B: Yeah, I really like the concept of building delight into your culture. And Dan, I like the reference of like delight native. You know, we hear so much about AI Native and being built for speed. Can you also be. Can you be built for speed and also have delight built into your culture? And how do we balance the two of those? I think that's going to be a big part of product development moving forward. Um, you as when you come to Rochester, right. People are going to be excited to see you. What's the best way to approach you at a conference?

Speaker C: Well, I'll be around, um, with two days, so I hope. I mean, we'll see if I will be wearing pink. So it will be easy or not. But for the first day, it's going to be mainly the workshop. But, uh, I will make sure to be, uh, like for all the networking events, they will, uh, be able to reach out. And of course, the second day, I'll be there for the keynote. There will be a panel, so I think people will easily, uh, get to me and I will make myself, uh, available for that. In the meantime, even before the event, if they want to reach out for questions or requests or whatever, they can reach out on, um, LinkedIn. That's the easiest way for me to answer all your requests. And I'm very, very much looking forward for this event.

Speaker B: We are very excited to have you. Dan is campaigning for us to be the ones to intro you on the stage. So be prepared for our shenanigans before you, before you get up there to talk. Uh, but we're so excited to see you in Rochester. Thank you for being with us today. I cannot wait.

Speaker A: Just congrats on your book tour and all the work you've been doing following up. Yeah. Publishing a book, writing a book super hard, then having the book get out there is even harder.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I don't know if our people know that there will be books as well during the conference. So, um, maybe, I don't know if we keep that surprise. It's not a surprise anymore, but there will be books.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for being with us today.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's always a pleasure.

Speaker C: Thanks.