Should Private Equity Soften Its Image? (Why Investors Say Absolutely Not)

Welcome to the Private Equity Experience Podcast. Your backstage pass to the strategies, stories, and secrets that drive value in the PE universe. No filters, no fluff, just straight talk and expert insights to help you navigate the private equity world with confidence. And now your hosts, ed Barton, Rory Leaphart, and Emily Sander.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Blue. It emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: is it blue? Okay, I thought you were wearing eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Yeah, it's emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_160: a purple shirt for spring. Do you do seasonal clothing or are you just like,"If it smells clean, I wear it"?

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: Do I do seasonal clothing or does, does Rory emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: You, do you do, like, do you even th-, do you know what a seasonal color is versus a winter? eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: No, I, fuck, I, I take away, yeah, I, I ask Alexa in the rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Fuck no eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: the, what's the forecast?" And Alexa tells me the forecast is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I go,"Is it sunny?"'

Cause my office is all windows, so it's like all windows in here. And so rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: yeah, magnifying glass eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: degrees warmer than the rest of the building. So Alexa says it's gonna be like 70 or 65 and over and sunny, it's short sleeves. And if I have to wear a coat in the morning, that's fine, I'll wear it.

And then if Alexa says it's lower than that, then I go, "Okay, what do I feel like? Like, what's on the pile of clean clothes on the bed that I haven't hung up yet that I might wanna wear?" And that would happen to have been this shirt this morning, where they said, no, Alexa said it's gonna be 63 degrees and overcast. I was like,"Okay, so it's not gonna be ridiculously hot.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: So Alexa dresses you based on weather conditions and what's eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: Yes, but, but doesn't do like colors and that horse shit, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah, gotcha. It's kinda like Kirk Cousins, like he doesn't think about what he's gonna dr- wear, he just outsources that to his wife, and he's like,"Pick out my outfits and pack my thing," and God bless her, she does it. So that's why he has some of the, like, Kohl's special sometimes shirts eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Which is fine.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: and shorts. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: I, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: Dad mode eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: I'm - I get, uh, most of my clothes on Amazon rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. emily-sander_1_06-03-202: Amazon basics, baby rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: on Amazon too. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: Except rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Suits I've gotten all Bro- I've gotten new Brooks Brothers suits.

I spent up for suits'cause when I have to go to, into court, I'm like,"I can't look like a emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah. I do Amazon Basics, but not for clothing. I don't know. I do like rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: Like T-shirts and stuff, it's fine.

They actually have good T-shirts. You could go upscale on the T-shirts. They're like emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: I'm gonna buy you a Vuori T-shirt and you will never go back to like cotton, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah, those are nice. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: weird T-shirts. Yeah. Um, all right. Some rapid fire questions to get us into this episode.

Are you ready? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Let's roll emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: I'm gonna warm my, warm my brain up here. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Crank it up. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: If you could rename one everyday household item, what would it be and why?

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Oof I think I'd go vacuum dust sucker. Why? Obvious eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: was, I was, I was thinking of, I was thinking mops and I would call it a dripper emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Ugh, a dripper? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2: Ripper.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: How do you mop, bro? You're just letting it drip? You gotta mop rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah, you gotta suck that water back up eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: to s- to say I'm sliding the dripper emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: Oh my God. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Okay.

that. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: What rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: right. Yeah. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_160: a word that instantly sounds more expensive if you put the word artisan in front of it?

rory-liebhart_1_06-0: Everything that you find in like Whole Foods or something like that. Yeah. Artisanal bread. Artisanal, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: Pay more for that.

Mm-hmm. You're gonna pay more for that rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: yeah, maple syrup. Yep. Th- kind of along the same lines as Ed says.

Artisanal, um Clothing, I think, you know, could, um, could, could like emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: vegan clothing rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: could imply, you know, handmade, tailored, you know, that kind of thing. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Okay. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. That's a good question.

So much of that I feel like is pervading the world right now, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: If aliens landed tomorrow and had to rename Earth based on observing us for a week, what would they call it? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Boy eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: I don't know, what do you call an ant hill? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I mean, an anthill. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: I mean, when, when we're standing there looking at an anthill, how would we describe it?

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Hmm. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Hive mind, puny, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: the way eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: I'd be rory-liebhart_1_06-03-: Frenetic activity, you know, happening on that little bump of earth or terra firma eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: there's these little yahoos emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_160: I think they, I think the aliens would be like,"These humans have a lot of range. Like, they can do lots of good, cool things, and they can also do lots of bad, cruel things."

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: You're, you're giving, you're giving us a lot of credit. 'Cause these aliens, if they've gotten here, they're a hell of a lot smarter than we are,'cause we have trouble enough just getting a rocket to launch. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: uh, as we saw the last week or so with, uh, with the one with Jeff Bezos is blowing up down there in Florida. So, you know, from my seat, I, I'd look at it, if I was like one of these super intelligent fly across the, the galaxy alien things, I'd look at us and go, "These guys just run around doing a lot of stuff and they don't seem to, to make emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: Mm.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1: progress." It's kind of like, there's a lot of activity for not a lot of, for not a lot of results. I, that's why I'm like, what do you think about like an anthill? There's a lot of activity going on, but I just, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: of it there's these guys are running around.

I don't know what the hell they're doing. They're not carrying food, they're not reproducing, they're just walking emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Well, I think they are doing stuff, but maybe not to the naked eye rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2: species that's very good at extracting things emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: other emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Okay, just a few more here. rory-liebhart_1_0: replenishing.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: If you had to rebrand coffee without using the words coffee or caffeine or, like, energy, what is your marketing pitch? What does coffee do? rory-liebhart_1_06-03: Essential to survival. You have to have it.

At least that's how I think about it. Um- eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: the brow- the brown emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: The brown, ew, gosh. Brown elixir. When I was little, when my nephew was little, he used to call it wake up juice.

'Cause he'd be like,"Oliver, do you like rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: like emily-sander_1_06-03-202: orange juice? Do you want apple juice?" rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: have a child brand emily-sander_1_06-03-202: "Yes." And he goes,"And rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: cooler emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: daddy wants his wake up juice."

And I was like, that is hilarious. That's exactly what it is. It's eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: That's, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: wake up juice. Like, yeah.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: pretty brilliant emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah. If your life was a Netflix series rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: uh, you know, late afternoon it's more like stay awake emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Stay righteous. Yeah, there we go. If your life were a Netflix series, what would the marketing team name this season?

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh my God. Inflection point transition. Yeah. Yeah.

Midlife transition, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: 2.0 rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: I, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: I don't know.

I don't know. That's a hard one rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: 'Cause I'm one of those ants in the anthill just running around, not accomplishing much, but being very busy. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: I, uh, yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: So maybe they'd call it The anthill season emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: M- m- what, but you're trying to be more purposeful, aren't you? Like a purposeful anthill eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Yeah, I am trying to be more pers- rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: This time it's different.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: That's, that's actually a great one. This time it's different. I've only reinvented myself five times, but this time it's different emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: All right. So if pri- so private equity has been called everything from, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Boy emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: like, vulture capital, corporate raiders, alternative investments.

Does private equity need a rebrand? Rory, you brought this into our lives with one of your clickbaity articles, but it's a good one. Does, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah emily-sander_1_06-03-20: private equity need a little facelift? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Hmm.

Well, I, I don't personally think so. Um, but you know, certainly the author of this article, it was sort of clickbaity, but it, what it turned into being, and this, this article was on, I picked it up on Reuters, and it was, uh, titled"Private Equity Cries Out for a Rebranding." what it was wasn't like some sort of, some sort of a scathing, know, attack on private equity. It's more like, it was almost more like a history lesson of, of where private equity started, how it's and where it is today.

And some of the factors today are saying,"Hey, this is how this, this can be identified differently now amidst, you know, other businesses that have popped up that are almost adjacent to private equity." We've talked about some of that with private credit. so it was more just like a, a way to say,"Hey, it's changed over time. Maybe it's time to, maybe it's time to call it something different," you know?

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Yeah, I think the, the one thing that struck me in the article was the, the element that the hold times are much longer now, and the liquidity rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Seven years on average. That blew me away, actually. Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: was, I was almost...

And I, and I remember when we would talk to, like, private equity sponsors, we had a private equity sponsor at one of the companies both Rory and I were at, and they called themselves,"We're growth equity." You know, so we're, we're, you know, we're a growth equity firm as opposed to, like, just private equity. Private, private equity, I think, has gotten so large has encompassed so much that it's actually, like, going,"Well, it's stock market." Okay, that's nice.

You know, you got like, what part of the stock market? You know, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: think private equity is due for a rebrand, but it's not a rebrand like private equity is, is, you know, the, the name I think has lost its, it's lost its precision meaning. It was much more targeted back in the, you know, they talked about the history lesson talked about, you know, Pinkus and, you know, kind of the, the, the, you know, KKR early days and, you know, LBOs and stuff.

And I'm like, yeah, it's, it's moved so far beyond that. Like, it's not past that, it's beyond that. It's, it's, it's like broader than that, that I think it's now become one of those private equity doesn't carry that much meaning really. It's really within private equity, what are you, what are you focused on?

And, and I think the way that with the longer hold times, with the, kind of different focus, the, the bulk of private equity now is really, uh, it, it's just not a sexy name, but you guys figured out already based upon Emily's questions. I can't, I'm not a marketing guy, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: you know, it's basically long-term semi-liquid growth capital rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: and it, you know, you- That's, that's not a sexy name, but...

And honest to God, but that's what it is. I mean, it's really gotten beyond this leverage buyout vulture capital stuff. It's really long-term semi-liquid. So it's not, you can't flip in and out of it like you can in the stock market.

But your return, because you've got a liquidity premium, is gonna be built in there. So you got your risk premium and you add a liquidity premium on top of it, which should improve your returns over general stock market returns, emily-sander_1_06-03-202: What's the liquidity premium? eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_0: targeted to growth. Yeah, liquidity premium.

So essentially what happens is you'll take a lower return if you have emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Okay eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: on your, on your money. So rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Just like a CD basically, you know eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Yeah. See, brilliance. CD will pay you a higher interest rate than a savings account usually emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Your money's locked up eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: account has less liquidity and the bank is then able to go,"I've got use of that money to loan it for that period of time, so I don't have to worry about kind of having to cover off a quick withdrawal."

And so as a result, you know, it reduces their interest, interest emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: So do you think like private equity could stand as an umbrella and then there could be subcategories? Or does the private equity as a whole need a rebrand? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: But rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: so big, uh, that I think there will always be differentiation within it, for sure. And maybe like, at this stage, maybe you actually have equity firms that specialize in like shorter term hold periods.

Like, we only do deals where we can do that. And, and, and/or you might even have - And I, I've heard of these, I've seen them that like they, they put themselves out there explicitly as like,"We're in this for the long term. emily-sander_1_06-03-20: Mm-hmm. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: we're here to hold a business for, know, decades even."

And, and that's - I've seen that happen with like family businesses where, an investor comes in and, you know, partners maybe even takes a majority stake with a, business and is just along for the ride for the whole, for the whole period. And so I do, to answer your question, yes, I think like under a bigger umbrella, like there is for differentiation in that category,'cause I think that's one of the pitfalls is everybody thinks that every private equity group is the same. Uh, what I kind of feel like this would take a little bit of a marketing spin is, yeah, lean into that li- like illiquidity.

Already - Everybody already that's familiar with it understands that aspect of it, value creation funds comes to mind, right? Like that could be something that, you know, if I'm actually like putting something out there to, to rebrand. So private equity universe, let me know your thoughts on this, all of you listeners. But like a value creation fund, which implies that what private equity does is to create value through, you know, operational efficiencies, financial engineering, and being in tune with the deal markets for M&A.

Like those are - We talk about those ad nauseam in our book. We've talked about those things many times on our podcast. That's really all it is, and some people turn that around to be, use the darker side of that notion of saying,"Oh, it's just, you know, job slashing, cost-cutting, capital." I heard locust capital emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh, man rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: this particular article that made me laugh my ass off.

Um, but like, but you know, just lean into the fact that, yeah, we are about creating value and we do it tangibly through these things. So, know, like I'm looking at that. I'm looking at like, let's say now that, now, now that, you know, in the future it's been signed to where people can invest some of their 401. I might look along these e- you know, you know, target date funds and other, you know, kind of index funds.

I might like throw, you know, 10% of my holdings into a value creation fund, whether it's domestic or international, and be like,"Hmm, that seems different than this other stuff that's just traded with liquidity and, and, know, easily in and out of positions." May- that might be a good diversification play next to real estate or some shit like that, you know? emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_160: I like that. I like your idea a lot, and it has a cool, uh, like easy to say name and acronym like VCD.

That's like a, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: there you emily-sander_1_06-03-202: that's a good rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: think emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: thing to roll off the tongue. But I mean, there's so many things that can fall under the private equity umbrella. It's, it is getting kind of unruly. Like, I had a client just, uh rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Well, you could do like large cap private equity, small emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Long term, they're short rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: yeah, like, I mean, Blackstone would be an example.

They're a publicly listed company, and they, they, they're - I think they have$1.3 trillion under management, which is insane. Um, you know, you could invest in a large cap like that, or you could invest in, you know, a small cap that goes, know, heavy into high-risk assets, which would be interesting to think about. You know, like almost like a venture capital.

It's almost like rebranding some venture capital into private equity, actually, like a reverse branding. You know, it's like making a, a, you know, a venture play seem more mature than it really is, but it's still got maybe the same risk profile, which you'd assign the same risk premium to perhaps as a venture emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: and when all three of us were in private equity land with this one company, it was like valuation, go, like whole time, like hurry up and go.

And I was talking to this one client and they, they had a... It's technically a private equity firm, but their whole model is to find companies with, um, a small TAM where no one else wants to go in and just ride that puppy for like 15 to 20 years. It's like div- like growth, but like dividend plays and things like that. And I'm like,"That is not private.

That's not the private equity I was part of." rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: pitch deck some hapless analyst is making where they, you know, make up these gigantic fake TAMs to make it seem really big. No, you're purposely making it small as hell so you can, like, fit this niche profile. emily-sander_1_06-03-202: 'Cause no one else wants to go in.

That's their whole model. I'm like,"That is crazy. I've never heard that, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: me emily-sander_1_06-03: especially under the auspices of private equity." rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah.

emily-sander_1_06-03-202: Sweet. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I think the other cool eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: you get outsized return, right? Because rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_: basically you don't have... now have captured a, a market and are able to kind of spread your margins.

So that becomes the, you know, a- again, from a private equity perspective, it's like, okay, and again, look at the business I'm in. at 3X EBITDA. equity is buying these businesses, they allow folks like me to do the initial roll-ups, and then they go, "Okay, now we'll buy it at 8X or 9X EBITDA." Where in a tech-enabled services business like we came out of, they were buying at 5X revenue.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: you're, you're rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah, 15X even though, yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: 80X or 50X EBITDA," and this is like 8X EBITDA. But, and so they use that cash, they spin it off, and the TAM isn't, or it's certainly not a growth market, and the TAM is, you know, in some of these cases, the TAM's gonna be very small, total addressable market, for those of you that don't know what TAM is. But the, the, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: the...

If you own that market, and, you know, we've talked about on some of the, some of these podcasts where you have like the specialty fishing equipment, you rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: You own that market, you have ridiculous return on equity. You, you're, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Hmm?

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: a, you're a cash cow, and then you spin that, you spin that cash off, and it, like you said, Adam, it becomes a dividend play. It becomes a leverage buyout play emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: But see, like I always thought the dividend play was something that PE firms did not want to do. Like that was, that was almost talked about as a, like,"Oh, you failed to do rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Hmm, you're right emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: your investment thesis."

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: that's 'cause we were in a growth equ- we emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: equity as the, as the, the rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: their, their thesis was we want, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: the way we're going with this. Yeah. Yeah.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: three to five years, and we're gonna rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: the equity and managerial capabilities in order to be able to help your business get there. other private equity rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2: Exactly eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: what Rory's talking about. There's other ones that'll go, "No, what we're doing is we're gonna go... We're gonna buy this firm for 10 million.

We're gonna borrow 6 million of it or 7 million of it, and because you, you've got ridiculous like 40% margins, and we're gonna use the cash flow to pay off that loan, and now we get a two X or two and a half X, but very low risk associated with that, and our risk premium, and we were able to lever the, the equity. So we've actually got a fairly good, you know, fairly good return on it, on equity, maybe four X return on equity, three X return on equity, but it's just addressing it a different way."

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: And in Rory's name, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: we're still talking about value. We're still talking about we're creating something that wasn't there or couldn't be there without us in some sense.

And then it's a fund where it's like there's, there's still the model and the container of we're raising capital, we have these different funds eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: it's, it's almost becoming more like, uh, and I... This just popped in my head, but it's all because of the two of you talking about it. Really, private equity is now becoming more like mutual funds. And rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: mutual funds, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: are invested in, in public equities rory-liebhart_1_06-03-: Exactly. Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: and, but it's, it's portfolios of that, and they're targeted.

There's general funds that invest in everything. There's targeted funds, S&P 500 or, you know, small, small cap technology or, you know, growth, growth gold or whatever. And then you, you've got... And, and I think private equity is, is as, as useless a term as going,"I'm in the stock market."

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: what does, what does that mean? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: It really has become that eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: gotten to the point where,"I'm in private equity." Well, what, what does that mean?

It, it's... I think private equity firms are gonna start positioning themselves and their funds, and have, like mutual funds do, and go,"No, this is a small cap growth equity fund," you know, or this, it may be a Blackstone fund, but they've got a bazillion little funds in there and it's a growth cap, a growth cap, uh, but it's less liquid, so you got a liquidity premium and you've got a liquid- You pa- you basically have to, have to get compensated for that lack of liquidity.

But that's... And, and they may be smaller investments and you're expecting a higher return because of the liquidity premium, but it's now targeted more in those, in those segments like mutual funds rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah, for emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: are there players or movements to try to define what new PE is? Or is that, is it the Wild West and it's like kind of scattershot and it's gonna coalesce to something over time maybe, probably, but right now it's all over the place?

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: it's largely coalesced rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_: certainly coalescing if it's... I don't think it's a scattershot, uh, anymore. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: No eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: I think that scattershot stuff went away probably 10 years ago, 15 years ago, if not longer. I mean, I, we've been, we've been involved in private equity, Rory and I, about 25 years now.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh man, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: So everyone is starting to use that mutual fund language and start, starting to talk about it in the same way, like within the industry itself eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: I, i- it was already moving kind of that direction. Like I said, uh, the private equity firm the three of us worked with positioned themselves as growth equity, weren't huge, and they focused emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: They were like boutique, B-E eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: four specific verticals.

Yep, four specific verticals, and they said,"We're, we only invest in these four specific verticals." They have a managing director for each, and they know that vertical like the back of their emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: And it wasn't just the vertical, it was like the characteristics of the firm leadership. Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: like a mutual fund. It, we, we invest in this, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: and if you want this ki- if you want exposure to this market, you invest with us.

And if you, you don't invest with us if you don't want exposure to this market,'cause that's all you're getting. And we, we should be part of your equity portfolio or your alternative investment portfolio, not your whole alternative investment portfolio,'cause we focus on, you know, things that look like this rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: is the motivation for a potential PE rebrand from,"Oh, people, the pub- the general public thinks we're vultures," versus,"We just want clarity.

Like, we want some distinction rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: You emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: in this big amorphous nebulous-" rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: thing- things like this tend to start with I don't know, how do I put it? Like, the biggest needle movers. This isn't probably something that's come up with, a really small boutique private equity firm, right? 'Cause they have their, they have their, um, their playing field for which they operate pretty well defined.

You know, uh, uh, naturally I think about like the Blackstones and the KKRs and the stuff like that. And one of the things that I think is driving the thought around this is the fact that this is now something available to like pretty much everybody, right? Like, so as we said, you can, you can invest in some of these publicly traded massive funds, but also you're trying to get 401k funds and, and individuals to put their money into these funds from their retirement account, right?

So like, know, accreditation rules, I don't know if those themselves are going to change, but like if, know, a company offers a 401k plan to somebody that's new out of college making 40 grand a year or something like that, you know, and they're socking money away into a 401k, and then every year when you're doing open enrollment, you get to choose the little funds you put stuff into. You know, like they want retail... The, they characterize that kind of money is retail money, retail investors, right?

That's, that's maybe in some ways, if you don't have to manage the day-to-day communications with retail investors, maybe some of the best money you could take'cause, you know, uh, bless, bless these folks, but not all the most sophisticated investors. So it's just like easy capital to manage. But like you're trying to demo- I hate to use this term, but it sounds... private equity investment to the masses, and there's trillions of dollars of that on emily-sander_1_06-03-202: Sounds like opium of the masses.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I know, right? Like I, I, I wanted to punch myself as I was saying that. Um, like it... But, but that's what it is.

It's like how do you get the most capital into your funds emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: the most cheaply, right? Like, so, um, you know, like the average retail investor is expecting a 5% to 7% return annually, right? Back in the day, you know, when it, like LPs in these funds were expecting mid double digits, like 15% plus generally, and that was being delivered.

I don't know. So the game has changed. It's more like we, we want the public to see this as a good viable value option to invest alongside of, know, um, in, you know, AI tech stocks let's say, for example, you know? Uh, so I don't know.

It's very interesting. I think, you know, who's... Is, is there anything actually organized orchestrating this? I don't know that there really is.

I think it was a really clever article and a very interesting thought That turned kind of a history lesson into like, where are we at with this today? Which really results in, you know, we're trying to differentiate ourselves from private credit. We're trying to, um, you know, get away from this notion that we're vultures and we're, you know, yet we still invest in private companies. So what do you do with all that?

How do you make that something that people can glom emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: By the way, when people say... Like, what have people said when you're like,"I am co-authoring and I co-host a private equity book and podcast"? What ha- what has like family, friends, colleagues, what, what's people's reactions? rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: The f- I, I, I'm being completely honest about that.

There - I get th-this like,"Wow, that seems incredibly complicated," or,"That seems really of my league to listen to." I'm like: No, please listen. Like, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: For you rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: is made for, this is made for you. And I also have people that, you know, even just last week, somebody was like,"I listen to every single episode you guys put out.

I learn so much." And I was like, emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Good. Oh rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: And, and they were being sincere. They weren't just saying it to me, you know?

Like, but, you know, I wish I would see, get that feedback on Amazon through all the, the reviews that we would be emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Drop us some reviews, listeners, please. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: us emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Yeah rory-liebhart_1_06-03-: Exactly. Let's get this great information out to the masses. But all, all that to be said is I think it still is a complicated term that intimidates people is my point.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: And what about you? eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: No, I think I, I'll go with what Rory just said. I think it's, there is an intimidation factor associated with it, and as they move to a more retail kind of attempting to bring in retail money, it does two things. One, it, it's, gonna continue to see asset inflow, which...

And it's tough to get big multiples on big assets. Big numbers are tough to rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: It truly is. Just look at Berkshire Hathaway. Today I was reading that they have like$313 billion of cash sitting on their emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: Man rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: And like they did a couple of$10 billion deals this weekend, and it's like that makes no dent.

You eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Yeah, it does make that. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: it's, I think it's, I think it does become more of a how do we, how do we... But again, the private equity firms, they're driven by assets under management and return, right? They, we've talked a lot about the, the compensation structure and the incentive structure.

So it really does become a, we need to simplify to attract that retail. also, we need to simplify our branding. We need to make the branding more intuitive and less intimidating. And I also think it is a, uh, and I'll go again, I'll, I, I now have become a believer in my own Kool-Aid on the, on the rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: It's only a matter of time when that happens.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: a, on a mutual fund thing, which is, which is, y- you know, I, I do think there, there's gonna continue to be a downsizing and a specialization rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: private equity that's going to be part of that retail positioning. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: And it's, and so for retail investors, which is really where the, the growth opportunities are for private equity firms today, is that now that, you know, 401Ks are open to, to pri- to private equity, it's gonna be the, you know, you can get exposure to tech private rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: you can get exposure to tech-enabled services.

You can get value, you value creation private rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: you know, this, we do the balance sheet thing and we do the operational excellence thing and, you know, we're not looking for super growth. We're actually trying to optimize this asset. And I, you know, again, if you look at someone like me, that those...

I'm not gonna wanna just dump money into something that says private equity. I wanna, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: wanna go,"Okay, what's the, what's the focus?" seen private equity rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: But that's how it was though back in the day.

It's like, hey, eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: it was. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: some, some like rich, rich LP was approached,"Hey, you want in on this private equity deal?""Whoa, I don't know much about that. That's sort of like ephemeral."

Like,"Yeah, I got a bunch of cash sitting here." It, it used to be that way, like truly. know, it's like this, this - Now it's just available, like you say, you know? And I think it's funny what you're saying.

What we're talking about here is it's just another, it's just another node to your, your, your mutual fund, um, you know, analysis, which is to say like what we're talking about here is figuring out how to create index funds of private equity for people to get their flavors. And it's like, if you really want to think crazy is who could start up a true equities market for private equity, like a true secondaries market where eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: a fund of rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2: it's...

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: which exists by the way. There rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Oh, there are, eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: that are fund of funds rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: like it's not really known to the masses, right?

Like, you know, what, what if I wanted liquidity and I wanted to buy secondaries in, in a, you know, bunch of private equity funds and diversify the same way I would with a basket of public equities? You could do the same fucking thing. It's just somebody needs to create the, the market, you know? the market.

I don't know. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: One of the top reactions I get when I say,"I'm doing this thing with, you know, former CEO and CFO, private equity," they go... They literally make this sound, "Ooh," like that. I was like,"Ooh."

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yes. Yes emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: if I, like, tossed a, you know, dirty fish in their face, they would make the same facial re- reaction. So it's like,"Ooh." rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I have a lot of people that promise to listen to it, but they're like, I think still a little bit intimidated, like, "I'm just not gonna understand that."

what I will say for us, this is worth telling our listeners, is like, people do listen to it or read the book, they're like,"Oh, light bulb went off. Now I get it." And it's like, man, if we could just get people to take that first bite, take that first hit, so to speak, you know, um, then they'd be hooked. You know,'cause it really is, it's emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Just one episode.

Just one episode. Do you, do rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: Right. Yeah. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: think that in the rebrand to become more attractive and salient for retail investors, they have to soften?

Does PE need to soften its image? eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: No. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: No rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I agree. No, I don't think so eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: think most people don't want...

I don't want a fricking soft image of my investment emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: You want a fierce, blood-sucking, greedy motherfucker eddieshizzle-wahoo_: recurrence, and I want rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: So I think it's, I think it's actually more a help me understand what I'm actually investing in. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. Exactly.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: me kind of rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: over this it's a rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: People don't want soft. They want - eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Yeah, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: at all eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: soft. rory-liebhart_1_06: investments.

It's not a... No eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: plays well, you know, we talk about the, the episode a couple episodes ago where, you know, where like the, the don't mess with our children's sports rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: They, they want soft, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: They do. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: the investor doesn't want soft.

equity folks, they, they're b- they're riding that balance between like getting, getting, you know, kind of regulated out of business and, and the public perception versus like our job is to maximize return for our, for our limited partners. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: No. People want that discipline, man, I tell you eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: of a, what's the job of a corporate management is to maximize value for shareholders. And then the issue becomes, okay, well what's value?

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: How much is, how much is, is quantifiable versus qualitative? And, you know, what social, how much do you need to have in social equity versus financial equity and those, and those elements. said all that, I don't want soft. I want someone who's focused.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: And that's really, for me, I think the, the private equity rebrand is more about like, here's the focus. H- you can understand what you're getting, what your investment's doing, we're focused and here's the focus and here's... You know? So I think it, it, it does...

I, I'm becoming more convinced, yes, a rebrand is necessary and it needs to look rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Why not? You eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: actual rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: it's time. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: How, how plugged in are like rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: It's like literally been like, let's call it this, like, I mean, you know, the author of this particular article put sort of the first private equity deal is 1901 when JP Morgan bought Carnegie Steel for like, what was it?

Like 400, 300, I have the note here, you know,$480 million, which actually back then was a crazy amount of money, 1901. Well, a lot of people put the, like RBJ Nabisco is kind of like the one, so let's just call it that one'cause it's, it makes it seem like we could do a 50th year anniversary of private equity, let's call it, you know, uh, rebrand, right? So you're in your fifth, sixth decade, like it's been roughly 50 years since the private equity deal one could argue. So yeah, it's time.

Let's do it. Let's put, we'll put, you know, put a marketing, uh, program around it and like, let's emily-sander_1_06-03-: America's turning 250 years old. PE is 50. These are milestones, people.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: I'm 47. You know what? Fuck. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: I'm older than private equity.

Yeah, so rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: You are, Ed. Ed, Ed emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: We need a T-shirt. I'm older than private equity. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: That is emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: We need a T-shirt rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I like that.

That could be some cool... You know what? We haven't even begun to talk about the kind of cool merch we could create, you know? We could put some emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Some PEC rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: cool shit out there.

emily-sander_1_06-03-20: private equity experience swag eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: 1988 would've, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: RJR Nabisco rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Got liquidity, question mark. Like, that's like a T-shirt. No, we don't actually have liquidity eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: you guys have not seen, and I, I have not been able to find this emily-sander_1_06-03-20: Sirens.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Wow, somebody's dying in emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: Oh my gosh eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: It's a emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: You wanna, wanna mute yourself there, Barton? Are you, have you got rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: it's my place here in Bellevue that's doing that eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: to understand how - I want them to know what kind of a hood this is here. Um The, uh, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Dude, the mean streets of emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Talk about soft.

Yeah. Oh my gosh rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh my God. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: I rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh my God. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: The, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: the... rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh man, I love Anacortes. Oh God eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: if, if folks haven't seen it, I have not been able to find this movie. I had a VCR tape of this rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: Peace.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: I, and, I don't know, I, I don't know where it went. Well, I do know where it went. It's, it was lost in a flood. Um, but the, uh, the rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Aw, RIP.

eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: movie is Barbarians at the rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh yeah, I've read the book eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Well, the, the movie was rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Was it? Oh, dude, I gotta watch it then. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: James rory-liebhart_1_06-03-: actually a crime that I haven't seen that, to be honest with you eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: James Garner was, is Efros Johnson. I mean, it rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Cool.

Maybe I'll watch that tonight. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: A- a- rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: gonna eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: I rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: do that. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: find it streaming, I can't rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: No? Oh, man eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: mean, it is, but it is an emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: Is it on YouTube?

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-20: You've emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Like you can buy stuff on YouTube sometimes. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: Yeah, it's emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: No? eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06: either. I, I've rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: All right eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: over.

I, and I'll look again because I would, I would commend to our, I would commend to all rory-liebhart_1_06-0: Listeners, where can we find Barbarians at the Gate eddieshizzle-wahoo_1: Barbarians at the Gate, the, the emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Yeah. Also, eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: it emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: also you'll need to find a VHS player 'cause I don't have one of those laying around. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-20: I happen to emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: No, you do not, Ed.

Why do you have a VHS player? eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: does maybe sometimes I don't get rid of things. So rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Well, people have phonographs still, you eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: yeah emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: We love phonographs. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Yeah.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: we like the talkies. We like sound with our movies. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: I'll, I'll have to throw my laser disc on. No, just kidding.

I don't have a laser disc. Never did eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: it looks like according to my Google machine, it looks like you can currently stream Barbarians at the Gate for free on Roku emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: Oh, Roku. All right. There you go.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Okay. girlfriend has emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Roku and Tubi and f- m- like Freezee or free- like all these different fr- eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-: Hubie. Yeah, but rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: got James Garner, you got Jonathan Pryce, Peter Riegert, rory-liebhart_1_06-03-: Jonathan Pryce, great actor eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: going right back to, you got, you know, Jonathan Pryce is, he's badass. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Yeah eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: then he plays Henry Travis.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: No way. I'm totally gonna do that. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: it is, it is rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: All right. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-0: worth rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: never seen you this excited about emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: No, this is...

Yeah. Okay eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-2: It rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: other than the two of us eating a five-pound burrito emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: What year was this movie made? eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: Um, 1993, 1994. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Okay.

I was eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03: time I was graduating from rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_16: I was barely a teenager. My goodness. emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_1: All right. All right, we're in.

rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_1: go check emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_16: Do we wanna try to rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: the Gate. You'll learn a emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: wrap up the topic or just end with Barbarians at the Gate? Go watch it rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026_: Oh, man. Uh, I think the wrap up here is, yeah, we're right for it, you know?

So get a lobby going. Let's get some momentum behind emily-sander_1_06-03-2026: Value Creation Fund. I really like that rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2026: Hey, listeners, let's launch PECS itself. Let's be the flag bearers for the new private equity emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Yeah rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: we're doing this.

The three of us are going to represent the masses in this initiative. We are, uh, democratizing private equity for everybody. Make it understandable. Make private equity simple again.

Let's go the whole thing. Value creation funds. Yes emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Boom We're gonna wrap it there. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-202: Nice.

emily-sander_1_06-03-2026_: Bye. rory-liebhart_1_06-03-2: Thanks, Sam. Cool. eddieshizzle-wahoo_1_06-03-: Bye If you enjoyed today's episode, please like, share and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.