Ep 301 - From Hospitality to Household with Chelsea Ford: Ben Circosta on Turning Nonna’s Tradition into Bippi

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Principle of Hospitality podcast, brought to you by Principle Design, the strategic studio helping hospitality brands grow with purpose and creativity. In collaboration with Chelsea Ford, uh, CPG specialist and founder of foodpreneurs, this limited series from hospitality to Household shines a light on the founders who've taken their hospitality brands beyond the venue and onto retail shelves. Together, we unpack the ambition, strategy, and resilience behind scaling into FMCG and what it truly takes to grow into a household name. Enjoy.

Speaker B: Ben, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: No worries. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Chelsea, I'm really, genuinely excited to chat with you. You have built a very, very strong brand. Great product. I have it in my pantry and in my fridge. But anyway, fan girl, besides fangirling you, for those who may not know you and bp, tell us who you are and what is Bippy?

Speaker C: Thank you. Yes. Um, so my name's Ben. I, uh, I started a brand called Bipi about five years ago right at the start of COVID That was intentional. If it wasn't covered, it wouldn't have probably happened. I guess what we do at Bippy is create quality Italian experiences through our beautiful, high, uh, quality products that were inspired by my nunna Emilia initially. Um, and we've been able to, uh, develop that into a nice twist of Italian, both traditional and both sort of innovative range of products ranging from our chili, which a lot of people know us for, but we do Italian chili honey and sriracha sauce that Nonna wasn't making. But we definitely kept true with doing things like, uh, pesto and sugo. I have pasta sauce. So we've, um, we've got a whole range now. But when we launched, we were very much centered around chile. The word bippy was a slang word for chile, so that's where the name came from, um, where we're from. My grandparents were from Calabria, which is the southern or one of the southern regions in Italy. And they're very, uh, they've got a dialect there that's quite a slang dialect. Um, a lot of the probably northern Italians joke about how the southern Italians talk, but, um, my grandparents and a lot of Calabrians would pronounce the word pepperoncini. They'd shorten it to pepe. But then down south, they would pronounce the letters P with a B sound. So you probably heard some Italians, instead of the same pasta, they say buster. And it's the same with, instead of saying Pippi, they say Bippy. So they really strong B sound. And that's what I grew up knowing. Chili has been. Wasn't just like um, normal chili. It was capsic and anything was all. Was all bippy. So it made sense when we made a chili product to call the brand that it was catchy and has. Has a nice meaning to it. And I gu. The history is that I grew up. We grew. My grandparents migrated to Mildura which is a country town in Victoria. Uh, they had a farm there. They were farmers back in Italy as well. So it's a natural sort of progression to do the same here once they relocated here. And um, we always grew up around fresh produce. They were growing it and selling a lot of um, grapes and um, like sultanas, dried fruit back then. And then over the years as a lot of Italians do, massive veggie garden, uh, lots of fresh produce. Not just chilies like eggplants, cucumbers, tomatoes, oranges, all the citrus. You would everything. And then um, naturally at the end of, you know, the seasons there'd be excess amounts of fruit and then we would preserve them and pickle them or jar them or make sauce with them and in so many different ways that would last for the whole year and sometimes more. And that's what Nonna used to do with the chili. So that's where the product, the initial Italian style chili came from. It was her chili made with chilies from the backyard and homegrown olive oil too. Back in the day everything was all homegrown and the level of quality that you would get from that was second to none. And I guess as we create, recreated this product, it was all around trying to create that quality in not just the product but the feeling of it being homegrown and home style. And uh, that's where we saw an opportunity I guess in the market where there wasn't much on shelf that felt like that especially for you uh, know, third generation Italians, but just for people uh, that wanted to experience Italian food and that kind of quality. So yeah, that's the short I guess spiel on, on how we, why the brand was created. Yeah.

Speaker B: Thank you. And you know I um, will unpack all the amazing products that you have later and you know that are on shelf and we're going to talk all about that given the theme is sort of so called hospitality to household. Um, but that home style, you know, when I, I'm looking at it on my desk now, when I think about it when it's on my plate, the bippy Italian style chili hot approved by Nonna, like when I see that in, in irl on my plate or I sprinkle it on pasta or what have you. It does feel and um, this is a compliment. It does feel homemade. You know, it looks, it tastes it. Yeah. I think you seem to have nailed. Not seem to. You bloody well have nailed this intersection of homemade but super stylish brand and bravo. You really, I mean it, you've nailed it. You must be so proud of yourself.

Speaker C: Thank you. No, that means a lot because that's what our intention was to uh. And it really did start with celebrating that tradition of what Nona created and that, that Italian culture, that Italian food. And I think even back in the early days, like before COVID Before COVID but before Bippy, I was working corporate and uh, it was, you know, I really didn't have a passion in my work life and didn't really know where I wanted, what I wanted to do. And then this sort of opportunity popped up and then as literally within weeks of starting this, it just felt right. And I think it was that connection to heritage, the connection to my culture, my parent, my grandparents culture and the food and that, that home quality food. And I guess the. Even before Bippy, I would always write down on those recipes and I, um, was really interested and engaged in the details of why she would use certain ingredients, why she would do this instead of that and with certain seasonings or. Yeah. And the fact that she learned that from uh, probably her mother and her grandmother or her auntie. And it wasn't like she was watching uh, TV shows or YouTube or reading recipes online to learn this information. So um, I felt uh, it was important that. Collected as much of this information while I can. And God bless her, she's still um, she's still with us. 94 now. She's doing very, very, very well for 94. And uh, my normal as well. 99 now so. Or uh, 98. Yeah. Getting very close to the three figures. But they're um, touch wood, they're going well, but they've, they've grown and lived on um, homegrown produce, fresh produce, you know, not adding chemicals and preservatives to, to things as well. And I think that plays a really important role in their longevity but also creating that um, that sense, um, importance of ingredients. And when we, when I started the brand that was the real gap was every time I'd go through the condiments aisle there, everything wasn't either with Australian produce or had additives to it. And I knew that there was these jars of chili that were sitting in this cupboard for six or seven years and we'd open them and they would taste good. And I was like why, why is everything got additives in it in the supermarket? And um, once you sort of dig deeper into it and we look into it and there are ways that we can process it where we don't need to add that stuff and we can use Australian produce. It's a, we've got that much land here in Australia. So why are we not using like why is there pickled cucumbers on the shelf with cucumbers from Thailand? Like why is it not Australian grown stuff? And yes, price plays a big role in that.

Speaker B: I'm sure you have an opinion now about that in terms of why we do that particularly because you're in the pages. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So price is the, is the reason essentially. And um, you know there's big, big companies and big businesses that, where you know, cost cooks is important and find any little percentage wins here or there. But I think what they lack is the. Or what. And you know, probably at the time what the supermarkets weren't considering was the, the range of customers and there is a customer out there that wants to buy the Australian produce and wants to buy the premium and doesn't want the additives and is willing to pay a couple extra more dollars for that. Maybe it doesn't uh, sell as much as the other one, but there's definitely a growing trend in that, in that category in that area and for that customer. Um, so the timing for that that worked and then I guess the framing of the brand around that, like if we're leaning towards that and understanding that the customer's going to be you know, a little bit more premium, the brand needs to feel that too. And, and I'm sure we'll unpack it a little bit more regarding the brand but um, as much as you can probably hear like uh, the care and passion towards the product, I mean even more so with the, with brand and how important that is in telling the story to the customer. So it's a bit of a marriage of brand and product together to, to I guess create where we are today. But um, yeah, that's a bit of the backstory on it.

Speaker B: I'm so pleased that you joined those two because for me they're very much co joined twins, you know, or you know like twins I think is probably a much better way to put it because. And it's one of the reasons why last year I launched Bite Back Awards at so not. They're actually not about taste. They are definitely brand because for any product to survive it needs to have a brand behind it and have momentum and it's the brand that builds momentum. But of course, you know, I'm not selling medical devices so it needs to taste fantastic. But I'm curious just back to you personally for a moment. You worked with some pretty big brands as an analyst, Telstra and Holden for example, amongst others. And you've spoken about brand and you've spoken about product and you've gone really deep into heritage. And I, I heard you talk about, you know, you weren't necessarily fulfilled when you were in those places, albeit I'm sure today they've given you a lot of confidence around the numbers and that sort of thing because those businesses drill that rigor into executives. I certainly am very grateful for coming from the big end of town originally, even though my values stopped aligning with them because the training was so good. But I'm curious, you talk about the gap in the market. So many product driven people don't think about the gap. Are you saying that now, ah, five years in or were you able to identify that when you started?

Speaker C: No, that was important at the start. Yeah. Like when, I guess it was sort of, I felt like 101 starting a business at the time. It's, it's find something that's uh, not out there or there's a gap in the market. What is a gap in the market? Who is that customer? Those were sort of the base market research things that we did. And when uh, I say market research it wasn't, it was me just going in store, seeing what's around, seeing what's out. There wasn't much numerical market research or heavy analyst work. I think when I started it I was, I was a little bit less or probably a little bit more risk averse and not um, I guess coming from a corporate sort of jobs and analysts sort of jobs. You're almost training that way. And the, the ambition or the, you know, the, the big picture is like yeah, this, that'd be nice. But it's like, you know, what are the, what are the odds of this happening or what are the chances of this happening? It's like let's, or can we fit

Speaker B: that into the pipeline or do we

Speaker C: have that or something? Yes, that's right. But also just like, you know, you, it's a risk at the start so you want to make sure that your educating, it's an educated risk but also that you're not risking absolutely everything at the start. And I think I uh, started as a side hustle so I was still working for, you know, almost 12 months before. Once I had the. Once Bippy launched, before I went and quit that job, went full time into it. But I, I felt like personally I needed validation that, okay, this is, this business is going to work or this business has got it here. So when I started it and looking at the market, it was. I didn't probably go as deep as what I should have, but I definitely went deep enough to see that, okay, there's no locally made Italian chilies on the market. There's nothing that's branded around it. There's a, there's not much education around this type of product. So there's a whole white space here that we can create a brand around. And it's very niche. Like, and that's, I think, what makes it stand out. Like if it's not niche or it's not unique, it's um, you know, it's kind of someone's already done it or it's a trend or. Yeah, you need to, you need to find the right mix, uh, of that, that white space. But it's definitely, there's definitely a targeted approach at the start. And I wouldn't have done it if, you know, there was another one in the market already. And, you know, we're pretty lucky. Ah, when I say lucky. When we got into it, we realized why no one was making it locally because it is such a difficult product. Our fresh Italian style chili is such a difficult product to make and for the. From like a food safety and shelf stable point of view. So once we. And at scale, like it's well and well and good to make a batch at home, cut up de stem your own chilies by hand and do all that. But trying to do that at scale is extremely difficult. And now Fire Museum, we know that there's not many globally that do it. So we're in a very small, a small, small, uh, pocket of that style of chili obviously since we launched and you know, there was a big trend towards chili oil and now there's, there's heaps of chili oil brands out there. Um, no one that's anywhere near ours, just because of the texture, the flavor, the difference in the process, which also makes it, um, you know, still unique in the market and it's hard to replicate, which is a bonus for the product. Depends how far you step back. But then even since then, we've launched a range of different products that there are other things in the, in the market and where we're putting our twist to, with our brand. So that Sort of changes over time. But definitely when we launched it was very much about being unique and the only one that in that fit the premium, the brand, the product fit.

Speaker B: You know you spoke about niche and I agree with you that niche is really important. You've got to differentiate and even if you have a so called niche or smaller audience, but if you can sell more to them than, rather than try and go, you know, inch wide, mile deep as the Americans say, um, and be a commodity, it definitely is the way to go. And I'm in complete agreement with you. However, I would also challenge you to some degree. Do you think this is still niche?

Speaker C: So not as much anymore just with the, the amount of brands out there that are um, I guess incorporating chili, whether it's chili oil or from all the different regions around, around the world really. So now it doesn't feel like it's as niche and I think that's going to happen. Right. But I feel like at the time it definitely, there wasn't much out there like um, you walk in through especially an independent supermarket. Now it's like you'll see probably 20 brands. Right.

Speaker B: Whereas they're not necessarily Italian, they're mostly Asian, aren't they?

Speaker C: That's right. And that's where. That's what was sort of our benefit was that we were. The only other Italian ones you can buy are ah, uh, imported ones. So no one's using Australian produce, no one's making it here. Uh, and a lot of that Italian stuff is what's definitely been shipped on a boat for three or four months but they produce it seasonally. So the big difference is that in Italy they've only got three or four months worth of fresh chilies that can be grown. So they're making it in that period. They're holding the stock, they've got three shelf life, they're just holding that stock and then as Australia needs it, they're shipping it to Australia. So sometimes that stuff's been in a jar for over a year before it's actually on a shelf here. Whereas the fact that is that we're very lucky in Australia that we've got a climate up in Queensland in uh, Western Australia that can produce chilies all year round. So we can continuously make this product every week, which we do, and then that product is on shelf within four to five weeks and you know, in customers homes. So they're getting a really fresh product. If we were to have it sitting there for a year, it wouldn't be as fresh. It would still taste nice. As the white stuff from Italy can and does. But the, it's a point of difference in the, in the product taste as well when you're comparing with those direct competitors from Italy. But the other thing, and it sounds, it sounds weird because it feels like this is something they could change. But the brand, it's the brand that there was no one from Italy that had a nice brand and no one that really stood out from a branding point of view. A lot of the imported brands aren't doing the marketing here that you need to do as um, a startup FMCG brand as well. So yeah, we've got a lot of benefits being in this local, in the local area especially that we can really emphasize brand and build that story and connection that those competitors can't. So that was our point of difference with them. And then there was the point of difference with the uh, you know, the Asian style oils or the other chili oils that weren't Italian. So we kind of had a niche on product with them and then we had a niche on brand and you know, a little bit of provenance with uh, with the Italian ones. So yeah, if that makes sense.

Speaker B: And when you started, um, I imagine you were doing countertop tests and then you went to co manufacturing and now you've brought manufacturing in house. Is that, is that correct, Ben?

Speaker C: Uh, not quite. We actually we start. We've always manufactured it ourselves but we um, we explored co manufacturing and um, the possibilities of when we was trying to grow out of our home kitchen and into the next facility. Uh, obviously that was, that would come with you know, a fair bit of capital investment and um, machinery and all the likes and we'll see what was out there. Even just as a backup solution if you know quantity, uh, the quantity required increased and we could uh, go through someone and we had a lot of difficulty finding someone that could not just fill, uh, not just make the product but actually fill into glass jars was difficult. Hot, hot fill as well. Yeah, it was tricky where we. After this is in Australia, sorry afterwards when we've. You can find manufacturers globally that can help with this sort of stuff. But like I mentioned, the product is very, very difficult to make and the costs associated with that were just going to blow out. So there was no way that we could find someone that would even give us the time of day. Once we started explaining that each chili had to be de. Stemmed by hand because there's no machine out there that can take a stem off a fresh chili yet. But that was the biggest, uh, it was like no Way. No, that's, you know, the labor costs involved with that plus their margin on top of it. So it was just a quick answer for us that it's like, all right, let's uh, once, you know, we knew that Woolworths were interested and we could drive some volume that we're going to definitely be able to grow this brand, let's try and do it ourselves. And yeah, that's when we went down that path. But in terms of the tabletop tests at the start it was very much blind taste testing with, without and the. I've got a very distinct memory of like the first time we had about five or six other chilies there that were imported or um, local at the time. Um, and then I had three or four different slight variations of, of ours and the variations were just like the amount of salt or vinegar in it. So on the oil ratio and some slight things that Nona never really measured when she was making it because it was just by. So I needed to lock that in. And there was four of ours, six of the others and I had um. It was just family and friends, but it was completely blind. Taste tests all randomized and they didn't know who was, who's or what was what. And all 10, all uh, 10 people chose the four that I made over the six, like 100%. So that at that time was like, okay, well I think taste wise we're better than everyone else. If all 10 are saying it and they couldn't, they could clearly tell that it tasted better.

Speaker B: Great validation.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And you can do that to people outside of family and friends to get no bias and stuff like that. But if it's set up so that they don't know the difference, then um, it should be okay. So it turns out to be. It was.

Speaker B: So you know, when I hear you speak, I think about all the aspects of building a good solid business. You know, operations and finance and marketing and sales. We've really talked about a bit about touched on brand. But I want to go deeper and we've talked a bit on um, operations. Before we leave operations, I just want to understand for our listener what your manufacturing setup is. If you're willing to share what you do manufacture given the challenges and also maybe mention how many stockkeeping units you have and if all are manufactured or produced by yourselves.

Speaker C: Yeah, so about three years ago we moved from or three and a half years ago now we moved from the home kitchen we to uh, where we are which is a. It's about a 300 square factory that we built a kitchen in. Um, it was new at the time and I guess what will be useful for people looking for places and depends what you're manufacturing, but finding a place that's got um, the right amount of power, the right amount of gas, the right amount of um, you know, the right water connections, the grease trap, all that stuff that generally when you find in a commercial property they don't have, they'll have some elements of it, but you can. And not many have a grease trap really built into it unless it's a prior food manufacturer. So little things that you learn along the way that are important. We're lucky that it was a new build. So we were able to put that stuff in before we, before we built the factory. But then we could build our kitchen in and we're leasing the premises, lacing the shell and then we built the actual kitchen inside so that we could purpose built it. And um, at the time I uh, did it some training on lean manufacturing and figured out the best layout for the products and more so for the chili. What's that? Sorry?

Speaker B: Did you kai san it at the time?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, sure. To a little. Not probably as deep as I could have, but enough to get uh, it started. And at the time we were just producing the chili and I think our lift tape. So it wasn't a lot of products and it was very much centered around the chili. And as I mentioned, there's not a machine that can de stem a chili. So we had to. In our process we wash and we get chilies fresh from farm, like fresh chilies that you would buy from the supermarket. We de stem them. So we've gotten four or five people in there every day taking stems off chilies. Yeah, it's, it's quite incredible. And then, then we've been able to automate some steps of the process, you know, crushing the chilies. Um, we cook the chilies in these big steam jacket kettles that can hot fill the product. Um, and initially when we moved into the factory we were still filling by hand, which you know, I'm sure many of you listeners have experienced. Um, you're limited to how quickly you can do that and you need people for that. So that was the first big backlog we wanted to try and find a solution for. Finding a machine that could hot fill our product was incredibly difficult. Uh, we went through about eight or nine different machine trials before we found one that was made in Germany. Because of the sensitivity at that certain temperatures being hot filled and piston fillers crush and move product around. It was just changing the color, changing the texture and there were so many challenges to it. But we eventually got there and we've now got a sort of semi automated line where it can be filled and we cap and then it labels and then we cut it up. So there's a, um, definitely big improvement from the home kitchen, but we're still a very semi automated where we need to go through and destem all the chilies. We're still putting the caps on the jars. So there's elements to it that are where we're not quite fully automated yet, but where as we grow and as we sort of can, you know, afford to invest in that machinery. But we're at a point now where our space is very limited. We've built up, you know, we've got 16 products, about to be a few more. So we're going to have and you know, we've got, you know, pallet space.

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Speaker C: for the couple of pallet spaces for the stock, a pallet space for the cartons, you know, the jars and everything that. So it takes up a lot of warehouse in space every time you launch a new product.

Speaker B: So, uh, you've just launched Vodka Suga Vodka, or you say it with your

Speaker C: Italian accent, Vodka Sugo. Yes, we're, um, very excited about that one. We launched our initial, um, sugars last year and the idea was to recreate what when I'd go to my nuns for lunch on a Sunday, she'd cook the, you know, the beautiful Saul that's been cooking all Day and the smell and the flavor, the flavor and, and just with the her ingredients. So we um, we managed to do that at scale and that was, that was a long process to find. Like, again, going into detail with the ingredients and really finding the right tomatoes for that was difficult. But we, we did some sourcing trips to Italy to find the best ones we could find that worked, that tasted as close to the nunnas as possible.

Speaker B: And uh, because I must admit that is one thing we don't do that well in Australia. Tomatoes compared to southern Italy.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's uh, yeah, it's, it's a bit of an annoyance for me because it's like I'd love to use local tomatoes but the taste is just not there. And I don't know if it's um. In Italy they've got a lot more regulations on what they can spray and pests there compared to here, it's different. So I think that impacts a lot of the flavor because we, um, we used to make it with our own tomatoes that we would grow. But it was, they were organic, they were chemical free. It was all pretty, pretty clean. And you could really taste the flavor of a homegrown tomato. When you go and eat a tomato that's from a farm in Italy, it tastes like a homegrown tomato Here in Australia, which is incredible. But they're very, very strict on what you can spray and what you can do over there, which is why you go to a fruit and veg grocery in Italy, it literally tastes like you're eating homegrown fruit and vegetables. And it's just ridiculous and all shapes and sizes. Whereas here we've got, and this is another pain point of mine is we've got ridiculous strict standards that our farmers have to subject to, not just, not just domestically but a lot of them to make enough to live, have to export a lot of their fruit and vegetable standards. They've got to last in a container for two to three months, depending on where it's going. So of course they're going to need additives to it to help that. So before I go down that, that rabbit hole. Yes, important that we um, got a good tasting tomato that's, you know, it's 85% of the ingredient of the rest of the, um, the product. So it's got to taste good. The olive oil you add's got to be good. The basil, the chili, whatever we're adding into it. Yeah, the classic sugo. If you haven't tried that one, that is my noonda's um, sauce to a tea. So I recommend that one that's probably the pick of all the products that we've got just because it reminds me of my noona a lot. And then, um, this year we've added the uh, vodka sugar to it, which just launched, which we're so excited about. It's such a delicious product and it's like got the creamy texture when you cook it up and the velvety, it's kind of the, the sauce that you got people coming over. It's like you cook the vodka so you like. It's a bit more entertaining, more so than your everyday sauce like the classic might be. Um, so there's a bit more fun to this one and um, we've got a whole marketing campaign around that too, which is cool.

Speaker B: I love how um, you can appear. One can appear this amazing home cook with your product. Um, and particularly with now with the vodka Sugo, you know that as you say, you cook it up for friends and it's just that, I don't know, maybe a little bit more exotic or special, something like that. I don't know.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's just, yeah, it's a bit more fun. It's a bit more, yeah. A bit more dangerous. It's a bit more exciting. Yeah, it's got vodka in it so it's. Yeah, it adds to the party feel or the date night feel. Depends on what's happening. But um, yeah, it's, it's definitely a cool product to do.

Speaker B: So besides Nonna, Amelia, uh, who else is in your business? Ben?

Speaker C: Uh, so I'm the, the only owner of the business. Uh, I've got my parents who definitely help a lot in um, the day to day function there. They're uh, still, they've got other jobs but they definitely help out from, from time to time. Probably one day a week they definitely pop by and it's very much like a Italian family business where everyone's sort of involved in everything or chipping in, in everything. But um, outside of that I've definitely got a great team of staff that we've been able to build over the years. So as we manufacture everything, I've got a production manager that manages a lot of that for me now we've got a team of seven or eight in there. Was being able to build out the sales and marketing team now too. So we've got three or four there operations. We've got one, one or two there too. So it's slowly growing.

Speaker B: If you don't mind me, um, drilling into That a little bit now five years in three roles. What's the difference between the roles for the sales and marketing?

Speaker C: Oh yes. So um, we've got a marketing manager and a creative lead as ah our marketing team and then we've got a, I've got a business developer BDM who's a sales manager I guess in a way and he manages all the um, independent our ah, food service and our direct accounts. So pretty much everyone excluding Coles and Woolworths and um, any export stuff. So which has been and I'm sure a lot of founders or how it generally works for a lot of them is that you start the business and you're doing absolutely everything and then as you try and delegate things away you know you're finding people that can take over a lot of that load. So uh, our independent market and food service market is super important for our business. So bringing in someone there that had um, some really good experience and was able to take that to the next level for us was what we found. And Corey's his name, he's an absolute gun. So we're very glad that he's part of the business being with us for about a year. And then just recently we restructured our marketing team to, to have that, that mix. I think we got to a point where we uh, have people commend us for our marketing, our brand but I was spending a lot of time on it and as our brand's growing I'm um, sort of across so many different areas it was just hard for me to give it the true time it deserved to actually I guess lift the game a little bit and not so much be a uh, the startup anymore but be more of an established uh, business from a marketing sense. So bringing in two people that have got more experience and are better at the day to day marketing than what I am and then I can just compliment them with the brand and the creative side a little bit more. But that mix of having someone that's uh, and you know marketing so vague in where you can go. There's the creative side but then there's also the performance side and trying to drive online sales, trying to bring people to your site, social media and all and all the, all the fun stuff you can do on there. So it's very, it's a lot of businesses that create their own product probably neglect it initially at the start just because they're so focused on, on the product. But um, I think it's so important and there's obviously you don't have to do it internally. There are external people that could support with that sort of stuff initially. But I think it needs a lot of attention to get the brand off, off the mark. And that's how you know if you're not doing any, any marketing. It's. And it has happened before, some brands have done it without much marketing but it's very, very difficult. You need um, yeah, you need to invest in it I feel.

Speaker B: And often there's, you know, I often hear comments uh, to me when I talk about you know, what's your growth goals and people will talk about certain growth goals but there is no marketing to support those goals. And so it's very hard for one person, the founder or even if there's co founders to do all that heavy lifting. You might be able to do the door to door sales with the indies maybe. But then in terms of building brand, which you've spoken a lot about and I'd like to pivot to that, that's a very different skill set. So when you speak about brand and your brand is very clean and it's bloody consistent, I mean seriously, again you should just be uh, highly proud or commended because the consistency is off the chart. If I met you when you were working in Telstra and you're an analyst. I don't know, I didn't know you then. Like I don't know. Would you have, would it have been obvious to me that you're so obsessive about these sorts of things where, what, what goes through your mind with regards to your brand? Because you speak a lot about it.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, I guess I learned at more uh, specific. Probably both Holden and Telstra they were over obsessive about brand and um, obviously these guys are corporate successful brands. Obviously uh, Holden didn't, didn't make it through and unfortunately that was sort of out of their control. The Holden brand's still strong though. You know you look at people that follow that brand, they're you know, they're advocates and supporters.

Speaker B: I was gonna say advocates.

Speaker C: Yeah, so it is. And they're as well as they're so focused on brand, they're so, so customer centric. Like everything is about the customer, everything. And it's um, that's very much the foundation of our brand was around creating a brand that's really focused on a certain particular level of customer. And uh, you learn like building customer profiles and all that stuff and getting the detail in that is really important like understanding who you're talking to. Like not just females from 18 to 30 narrow down to like where. What do they do? Where are they viewing their content or what do they like? And you build out multiple of these profiles. And you really got to understand that first, who are the people that are going to be buying your product? And then you develop a brand from that. And because that's. You want to develop a brand that's going to resonate with those people, um, and how that looks, how that feels, how that interacts. And then, yeah, being. Being hella consistent around that and making sure that your Persona or your, Your feel speaks to whatever your values are that you've created and staying true to those values over a long period of time. And that's why. That's what big. Every big brand, not just Holden and Telstra, although Telstra is probably not as much loved as what Holden is. But it's still.

Speaker B: But Telstra is very good at building brands still.

Speaker C: That's right. That's right. It's got a, it's got a core DNA that, that people, you know, they know why they go there. You expect the same thing from them every time. So. And that's what you need to do as a brand. Soon as you deviate from that, you can, you can lose those advocates or you can lose those core community, every brand, and especially these, this stage, this day and age with social media, building that community and that brand is so. And that cohort of army of followers, like, that's where. That's where the value is. And you can see it in any brand that's been successful through social media. They've just got a crazy amount of followers that are, uh, super dedicated to the supporters. It's like, um. Yeah, it's, it's crazy what you can build. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, wasn't expecting us to talk about advocates, but you've mentioned it a few times. And it's such a good thing that I. That you're talking about that. I think it's worth unpacking for a moment. And that is when we think about loyalty and you know, clearly I'm. And, uh, not so much educating you here, but, um, I want us to just build this out for our audience because people think getting Instagram followers is a priority, and it may be, if that's the strategy, but to, uh. When we think about loyalty and building loyalty and people becoming advocates, which, which is really the ultimate. Where they're going to speak about you when you're not there, recommend it to their friends and, and like you referenced. And you know, for those in Australia who understand the Holden and the Ford competition, In terms of cars back in the day you spoke about the Holden advocates. That really is the goal, isn't it? That people will almost pretty much do anything that Bippy produces, buy anything that because you are uh, consistent, do what you say you're going to do, obviously have fantastic products, they're totally relevant to them. They're built for your customer Persona. I want you to say more about who your base is as well there by the way. So this is such an important thing for brand owners to wrap their head around getting to advocates, not just followers.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's that um, you mentioned it there, the word of mouth, like if you can find those customers that telling people about it, like that's so much more valuable than what you can do, what you get on social media and you can do word of mouth through social media too. That does work. But obviously through day to day conversations you've got people over, oh, have you tried this chili? Or have you tried this chili honey? And that, um, we get so many customers that have told us that's how they found it. Like they've been told by family members or they've been told by someone which speaks volumes to the products but the brand as well. Like that's, that's exactly what, what we're aiming for. And it takes um, it takes time that doesn't happen overnight.

Speaker B: You know, it's a compound effect, isn't it?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it takes a lot of time. But you have to be consistent with it. Um, your products have to be consistently towards it. But I think having a, like and you know the reason why a Ford or a Holder customer goes back because they just know what they, they're going to get as well. Like it's not just the passion towards or loyalty towards the brand, it's you're going back there because what you're going to get and for us we really focus on that. It's like, you know, if you come in your Bipi, you're going to get quality, you're going to get authenticity and you're going to get connection. Especially if you're Italian heritage. That's what we're driving towards. So every product that you have of ours, that's what we focus on and uh, making sure that we stay true to that for not just first five years but in 20 years time, that's going to be compounded over 25 years. Right. So that's how I look at it. It's very much a long term play. Obviously the more that you can invest in different forms of Marketing and brand awareness all depends on the budgets you've got and how quickly and the velocity you might be able to do that, which is what a lot of brands do. Well, that, uh, are driving pretty quick growth. But I think that's by far and away the key to building that, that loyalty. Customer base is having what your core DNA is or what are you, what are you trying to give these people every time that they engage with your brand. And that will get you. It should get you on the right path, definitely.

Speaker B: I mean, we could talk a lot about, um, loyalty and advocacy and I know we don't have you for too much longer, so I want to get in some other questions, particularly with numbers attached to them, and, um, give our listeners some meat on the bones in terms of how you've done all of this. But just by way of example, with Telstra, it wasn't advocate C because they love that brand. It's advocacy often because there's no other choice. And it's not that kind of advocacy that we're speaking about today, right?

Speaker C: That's right. 100%. But you still would go there. There is a slight perception of quality over the competitors, though, and that's what they lean to. It was. A lot of the marketing things was around Telstra was like anywhere in Australia you would have connection with Telstra, whereas all your other competitors you wouldn't. So it was like that kind of. Even though that's probably not 100% accurate, but it was, it was. What they leaned on was that it's reliable and more reliable than the competitors. It's better quality than the competitors. That's why you're going to pay an extra, uh, you know, $10 a month. So that's. And you know, as a, as a telco, you are very limited with what you can do because. And it was funny when we would look at that like NPS data, which is like the Net promoter score, which they were so like corporates just froth over. It's crazy how much they, they prioritize that like the customer feedback side of the level of, um. Sorry, where are the. If someone, um. Telcos have got one of the worst Net Promoter scores in most industries because you just don't expect it to ever go wrong. And when it goes wrong, like m. It really ruins your day. Like, you know, Internet cuts out, your phone's not working. It's like it's the end of the world. But if a tel. If a telco is doing its job, you're never, oh, uh, thanks, Tel. Strford. For doing a great job. So it's. It's a tough. It's a tough one. Absolutely.

Speaker B: It's very tough gig. Yes. But let's not feel sorry for them. They're making. But yeah, I don't definitely. So 12 SKUs, did you say earlier?

Speaker C: Uh, no, there is a few more. There is 16 now, actually. Uh, yeah, yeah, more. 17, including the Suga, the Volkersugal now. So. Yeah. And um, yeah, I think you asked me before as well. We do. We do manufacture all of those. So as we're bringing in a new product, we sort of assess whether or not it's something we can manufacture one with the capabilities that our machinery has or we can do with our people, but also the impact of that product on our capacity and like the opportunity with it and how that that product takes off. Is it going to impact other products?

Speaker B: So you mean cannibalization?

Speaker C: Uh, no, just from a, ah, production capacity point of view. Um, yeah. Making sure that we can actually manufacture it in house at a high quantity. Quantity, yeah. Cannibalization is probably a different conversation when. Depending on the type of product and how that would work.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because you have some sister products, Right. For example, hot chili, extra hot, or you know, um, within your range. Well, let's just go there before I let you go. How do you consider your. Your new product development pipeline when you know there are products within your range that could take out another one, be replaced? Just explain what you're thinking, is there.

Speaker C: Yeah, there's. Even before we get to that stage, it's got to go through. We have a bit of a, um. And call it a matrix or a guidelines on the boxes it needs to tick. And that's very strict to brand. So, uh, every product that we release needs to fit in our brand guidelines like it would be. Um. And you know, we can loosen them or tighten them as we want with a full controller of that. But how we see it, it's. It needs to have an element of Italianness to it or it needs to have an element of chili in it and it needs to fit in that. That realm. Like, we can't be releasing a product that's not Italian, that doesn't have chili in it and it just wouldn't make.

Speaker B: You don't do anymore.

Speaker C: We do, but it's got chili. The chili olive tape with. That's the one we do.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So that's sort of as we develop it, but then it's got to fit through those. That DNA. Right. It's got to have the quality, it's got to have authenticity to it. So. And then one of our values that we have in our business is tradition without fear of innovation. So coming up with new things that we can innovate that fit. Fit the Italian board, but also would probably make some Italians a bit upset. The traditional ones that, uh, you know, this isn't what you do, or this isn't what you do. This isn't the way to do it. But that's what we're. Why we're breaking. Breaking the mold a little bit and can, you know, we need to be different from those brands. So that's important to us too, as we're creating new products. Yeah. So taste and quality is a massive factor as well. Um, we want. Every time we create a product, it's not. We don't want to think short term, we want to think long term. The longevity of it. There needs to be opportunity in that market for it as well. So we'll do that.

Speaker B: How do you quantify that today?

Speaker C: Uh, a lot of competitor research, the data that we can get without having to pay exorbitant fees for and trying to see where that is. But there, ah, are, you know, we also don't want to be copying like other. Just because this flavor is doing really well. We don't want to copy. We need to make sure it's authentic and new to us. And I think what we've. One, you know, thing that we might not have done sensationally since we started was just sort of really identifying the impact of the. How the products sit in our whole range together and what categories they sit in. And a, uh, lot of it was more based on the taste of the product. And let's get it out there, see what people think. We've been, you know, definitely we sit in two or three different categories now. So, uh, telling that. How do we tell that story in every single store? We're obviously with supermarkets, quite restricted with independence. We're a little bit more flexible with how we can position the products on shelf. So that's definitely been a challenge to. To navigate. Now that we've learned from a bit of that and modifying it a little bit, we can be a little bit more strategic in that development.

Speaker B: Uh, can you give me an example of that without giving away your trade secret so people can understand exactly what you're talking about?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, Casey, an example is our chili honey. Right. That, um, m. That, uh, isn't going into the aisle next to our chilies in the supermarkets because, uh, supermarkets don't want honey in spices or sauces, they want honey in honey. So our honey jar, I'm not sure if you've seen it, but it's quite skinny, you know, would have one or two facings in the.

Speaker B: This is not the honey, but it's a similar bottle.

Speaker C: It's the same. It's the exact same bottle. Yeah. So that would sit in the uh, in the chili honey or the chili. The honey section. Sorry. So instead of that we opted for. There's a specialty food section which is where most our products are in the uh, in Bullnuts where we can have the chili honey. We can have next to the sriracha, next to the olive tape all together where it tells a bit more of a brand story. In an independent store, we've also got that flexibility as well where we, the store manager can kind of change it and they can make the moves based on our recommendations, whereas in supermarket they just can't do that. They're very strict. They've got their policies on what products need to go where and it limits our ability to do that. Like, uh, our brand sells, sells best when you've got all of our products together in one spot, which is. Tells, it tells a story of what we're doing a little bit more. It's gotten. Ever since we've launched the pasta sources, which is a whole new category, not condiments, so that's been difficult to do. But if we get enough facings with the pasta sources, it still tells its own story there as well. So, um, yeah, launching in whole new categories or launching whole different areas does come with a lot of different, different challenges. But if we still tick a lot of those boxes that we had from brand, product, taste, price and all that stuff, there's still opportunity there. It's just um, you're just limited with how you can uh, or the flexibility you've got.

Speaker B: Thank you. Look, we've got time limitations, but honestly, what a guest you are, uh, what an experienced entrepreneur. I, um, know you won an award for entrepreneurship. Didn't even bring that up. But you have, you bring such sophistication to the Australian Challenger brand market. Uh, it's an honour to talk with you. Where can people follow, support bppy Ben and also connect with yourself.

Speaker C: Yeah. Thanks. So they can, uh, Absolutely. Through our website you can uh, find all our products there and, or in um, most supermarkets around Australia, which is exciting. But uh, if you want to connect with us, definitely follow us. Journey on Instagram and TikTok. We've got a lot of stuff happening on there, which is cool. And then me personally, LinkedIn, I'm pretty easy on there to connect with and, um, conversate with if you've got any questions or want to catch up for a chat or anything. So always happy to help.

Speaker B: Amazing. And, uh, see you soon.

Speaker C: No worries. Thanks, Chelsea. Much appreciated.