PowerWomen Speak with Shiva McMahon

Speaker A: Hello, I'm Tinuja Randery, founder of Power Women Network, a network committed to developing the next generation of female talent and advancing women in leadership. Welcome to series six, episode four, 2025, of Power Women Speak, a monthly podcast about what it takes to be successful as a woman in business. We will be sharing career tips and tricks from our, uh, network of inspiring women leaders and discuss what needs to be done to address the gender problem in business. I'm delighted to be speaking today to Shiva M. McMahon, chief executive officer, uh, Petro Australis Energy. Before joining PAE, Shiva was executive Vice President for the international operations organization at Woodside Energy, an Australian energy company. She spent a significant portion of her career at BP primarily in upstream operations, served as CFO for BP's global lubricants business, Castrol, and held various leadership roles across the Gulf of Mexico, Alaska, Canada and the Middle East. Her governance experience includes serving as non exec director and shareholder representative on the board of Castrol India, which is listed on the Mumbai Stock Exchange. She was member of the REMCO Audit and Nominations Committee. She's also served on the boards of the Greater Houston Partnership, the National Ocean Industries association, and the Australian Energy Producers, where she chairs the Health, Safety and Environment committee. Shiva loves international independent cinema, uh, keeping fit, which often includes running, hiking and skiing, and of course, walking her dog with her husband John. And I can actually say Shiva and I are very good friends. And she's a founding member of Power Women Network. Shiva, it's wonderful to have you today on our podcast and thank you for making the time.

Speaker B: It's an absolute pleasure. Tanuja, we've talked about this for such a long time, but between your travels and mine, it's taken us a long time to get here.

Speaker A: You are quite the international citizen, I must say. I think we're going to get into that a little bit. Shiva, one of the questions I ask every single person who comes on this podcast, because I love tracking the pattern here, is what were those early influences or influencers in your life and how did they impact the choices you've made?

Speaker B: Well, I think I'm going to go with a trend, and it's most of the people on this podcast have absolutely, um, had this incredible in common, which is, uh, the role of my family, my parents, uh, to start with, I have learned very different things from each of them. They weren't the same from my dad. He was high on discipline. I learned a real deep sense of accountability and integrity from the start. You know, I'll always remember My dad saying, I want to fall asleep at night before my head hits the pillow. Um, that meant, you know, he wanted to have a clear conscience. He wanted every day to know he was doing the right thing. I grew up in Iran, you know, world of wars and revolutions and a lot of volatility and uncertainty. And that was something that kind of kept us grounded. And it's a big thing that I learned from him. And this whole sense of importance, of values and integrity and fairness became embedded in me from very early on. Um, and from an early age, I remember my dad always holding us to account for the choices we made, um, whatever they were, from little things to big things. You know, he always told us to think and then make good choices because they had consequences. Um, so it made us, uh, both my sister and I, very independent and accountable from the beginning. You know, um, my mom was very different as a person. She was the softer side. And I learned from him, from her, you know, the sort of how to care about people, about friends and friendship and doing things for others because you want to do them, not because you expect something in return. And that sort of, um, the mix of discipline and accountability, but with the softer side of the human side of a person, is what I try to bring to my style of leadership. Um, and sort of that culture of discipline and performance with a culture of care.

Speaker A: I love that. I really like that. You're right. There is really a pattern. It's quite interesting, whether it's godparents or grandparents or parents and this sort of mix and combination. I remember a story of my father, who sounds very much like yours, actually. And I always would go to him and say, you know, could I have this pair of shoes? Because, of course, that's what you thought about when you were 16. And he would say, yes, but what were your results, you know, in your loss?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And he would literally tie the two together.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And. And so I knew that if I delivered great results,

Speaker B: yeah,

Speaker A: I could get whatever I wanted. It's awesome. Um, and

Speaker B: early career perspective, though, if I may add, sort of, you know, what. What kind of brought me to where I am, uh, in terms of the career influence, on the other hand, that's sort of me as a person. I think as I grew up, my biggest influencer was effectively my first sponsor. Uh, my only real sponsor, if you will, my boss. When I finished my master's degree, um, it was in the early 90s, and there was a recession in Europe. There weren't many jobs. There weren't many opportunities, especially as An Iranian passport holder at the time. And um, I remember having a call with my mom and dad. You know, this is the old days of, you know, um, no email, no mobile phones. You know, I, I kind of really didn't appreciate the, the sacrifices my mom and dad made. I kind of took it for granted because going to university and schooling wasn't possible for us in Iran, but it was kind of tough. But I remember in one of those conversations my dad says, you know, you got to go and meet with this guy. You know, I know you're trying to find a job. Um, he's, he's some, you know, know, distant relative. Anyway, he, he was a second cousin of my mom's and I had never met him. He was traveling for a conference to Paris. Anyway, I went to have dinner with him thinking nothing, nothing would come of it. I'm just trying to appease my parents. Uh, he offered me a six month internship at this research center where he was a director of the Program on energy in Honolulu, uh, Hawaii. Uh, but he said you have to be there in a month and you have to have submitted your master's dissertation. This was one month into me starting my writing my dissertation. I'm nowhere near finishing it. But he said, well, that's the conditions. You kind of get there anyway, given that there wasn't much going on in Europe and this was in Hawaii. I said, shit, I might as well go for it. And I did. And his name, uh, Doomfashiraki. And he's, he's, he's uh, well known in the energy industry and he's uh, he was incredibly generous with his knowledge with, for me at the time, he taught me everything about the energy industry. I remember he would go on travel, but he was constantly on business travel. And he gave me this pile of readings from, you know, from geopolitics to chemistry to refining, modeling to whatever it was. And then he would come back from his trips and, and then he would say, okay, let's go for a walk. And we would go on these long walks and he would quiz me on them or I would ask him questions. And it just genuinely, uh, it started me one in the, you know, understanding what the energy markets and energy systems were about, but also in terms of broadening my mind of, you know, how I've thought about everything I've done in a much bigger context and the impact on it, on, on the bigger world than just what that was. Um, so yeah, that was those, those are kind of the big influences that got me where I am. So he, the six months internship turned into a fellowship and he offered me a real job at the end of it, uh, which kind of got me started in the energy industry. And I've never looked back.

Speaker A: I did, actually. I was going to go there. So I'm super excited you brought up this point about sponsors because, and it's interesting what you said. Which is it, you know, he was the one sponsor. And I often talk to women and, you know, younger, um, you know, younger generation, both women and men, and they talk about how do I get a sponsor? And I always say, well, I'm not sure you can. I can just ascribe a sponsor to you. You know, you almost create those opportunities by doing the things you do and having the impact you're having and giving back to your sponsor. As much as that, does that resonate with you, like, you know, you finding the sponsor, what was it about you that he saw in terms of potential that said to him, actually, I'm going to go invest? Or was it just because, I don't know. Um, I

Speaker B: think initially he did a favor. Right. To my parents, probably. Right. Um, but, you know, that was the internship part. But within three months of being there, he offered me something way bigger than that. And I think, you know, often opportunities are there. The point is, do we have the wherewithal to recognize them for what they are and then do we do what we need to do to make them fulfill that potential of the opportunity that it is?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And I think this was one of those. I, you know, don't get me wrong, I worked very hard for him. You know, I was curious, I was interested. I recognized the opportunity he was offering me by sharing his incredible knowledge. He was a very senior guy. He put me in front of senior leaders of companies. In fact, that's how I got my next job when we decided to move from Hawaii. But it was an incredible opportunity. So I think you're absolutely right. Uh, the big difference that I see between sort of on sponsorship is where someone takes a real risk on you. Um, and, you know, it's hard to do that in some ways because you sort of associate your brand with that person. You put your own reputation on the line somewhat. And I, in this case, I think he opened up an opportunity for me. And yes, I demonstrated that I could perform and make good, uh, on the gift that he was giving me. And in other jobs, I found that it wasn't quite like this. So often it was my bosses, my previous bosses, if you will, I had performed for them. They would Become my sponsors. I had a track record and a brand that followed me, and therefore it was maybe a lower risk proposition for them. Obviously they had absolutely seen it and, and therefore it kind of made sense. It was something they wanted to help with and within the system as it was. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I think it's. It's not. It's something that happens organically much more than, um, than not having said that one thing I do, I having gone through it myself without formal sort of mentors and sponsors throughout my career, it's something that I really take to heart in terms of genuinely, um, taking actually a bit more risk. Taking a bit more risk on people. Maybe not knowing them 100%, but seeing those glimmers and all of that, I don't need to know the 100%, but if I see a few key things, you know, some of the, the passion, the discipline, the performance, the humanity, the how they do it, just having a glimpses of a few of those, it's enough for me to absolutely go fight for them. And, uh, and that can make a big difference for people.

Speaker A: Two or three things, I think, to carve out of there, because there's a lot there which is very good. I mean, one that comes to my mind immediately is just this quote, because I think it really represents what you were saying, which is, uh, I think it was in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity. So the idea of encouraging people to look at a challenge as a chance of growth, right? And having that mindset. I think if I'm listening to you speaking, right, I'm thinking, right, the mindset of, you know what, I'm going to take the risk. I've done my little analysis. I'm not saying it wasn't, you know, in some way or managed set of risks that you took, right? Um, I like the person I'm going to work with. I feel like I like the sector. It's going down. Um, I trust this person. They've actually done some things for me before. I really learned from this person, et cetera, et cetera. But also this ability, just say, I'm going for it. What do I have to lose at this point other than learning at the end of the day? And I think that mindset also probably resulted, by the way, in. In you then not only seizing these opportunities, but then the opportunities multiply. So you get this domino effect, right? You take the risk, you jump into the opportunity, you solve for the trouble, then another one presents itself, and then you take the risk again, another one presents itself, and it really is like a. It builds. And I think my son told me the other day, by the way, Shiva, you of course, know him well. He said, mom, as he was thinking about this next role he's taking, he said, mom, you know, I. I think about it this way, like, will I look back and regret that I didn't do that? And I thought, oh, that's quite smart of you.

Speaker B: Something my husband told me many years ago. You always regret the things that you don't do.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And that is absolutely incredibly insightful of Varen.

Speaker A: Yeah,

Speaker B: it's so. It's so true, you know? Yes, yes, there is some, you know, you do have to take account. You have got to think about it a bit and balance the risk and reward opportunity, but nothing is for sure. And you always. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Right. So you've got to go for it at some point. And when you look back, what you take out of it is once you've got the opportunity is what you do with it.

Speaker A: Exactly. So tell me something. One of the things I also like asking on this podcast is when did it not work? Like, when you think back to your career. Talk to me about a moment when you may or may not have taken an opportunity or decided against it, or you took one. It didn't quite work out. Um, talk a little bit about that and what you learned from that situation. Because people think that people like us are just always, you know, it's always great.

Speaker B: And we all know that is so not true. Right. There's so much that goes on I would share, actually one of the sort of more sort of salient, kind of a bit of an aha moment, but also a big setback for me. Goodness. You know, in the energy industry, Iranian woman, I wasn't exactly kind of fitting the mold, you know, if you will. Um, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And, uh, like most women, I was a little naive that my work would get me recognized and all the rest of it, um, and would take me forward. And it did for quite a while. Right. Because of how I did and how I work, people wanted me on their teams, et cetera. So it actually worked out quite well for a while. But then at some point, I noticed that I would often get replaced. In my last jobs, we moved around quite a bit with two people or that somebody with a higher grade would kind of come in. And, uh, I went into this particular team where I noticed that I was the lowest sort of grade person. And it kind of, um, made me Think and then sort of get a bit annoyed honestly about it at the time. So, um, I remember sort of pushing to say, well, hang on, why is there this disparity? And um, wanted to understand what it would take to get the next sort of promotion. And, uh, I was sent on an assessment program and I didn't do great in that assessment. It won, obviously. I think sort of some of my, um, you know, frustration kind of came across probably. But also, as I said, I didn't fit the cookie cutting machine and I didn't hit it off with the assessor, who was very old school, had different values and style to me. So anyway, the outcome of that was that it was recommended that I don't get promoted. At the time, that really hit me because I was like, you know, what does that say about me in terms of what I believed in myself and my confidence? And, um, at the same time I was in the process of getting a new job, applying for a new job. Uh, it so happened that again, one of my, my previous boss was in that organization. He recommended I got job anyway. But typically, like a lot of the times when I had gotten jobs, you kind of get the job for at least six months or a year before you get promoted. You know, it's like a try before you buy kind of model was very common at the time for me at least. And um, so I went in and um, when I got that job, a lot of things change. I decided that I was going to, you know, I kind of gave up on that whole promotion thing at the time.

Speaker A: You

Speaker B: know, I said, okay, I'm just gonna let it go. I'm gonna focus on what I've got to do and I've got to focus on what's in front of me. It turned out that almost switching off that frustration and obsession opened up and freed me up to really focus on what I could influence and what I could really make a difference in. And uh, this was my first proper team leadership role. And uh, you know, it so happened that it was a time of change in the business. I chose to actually take on a much bigger transformation of the business, which was kind of integrating into a much bigger unit. And uh, it made a massive impact. And with that I learned a tremendous amount about leadership and what I could do, which was, which was positive feedback and a boost to my confidence in. It created a, um, massive product program that got a much bigger impact in the organization, got adopted much more broadly, and it created that track record and brand of that transformational leadership and followership that can be created. And I realized at that time that I just genuinely need to just own my own path and not go with a system, not try to fit in the cookie cutter that there was and actually just follow my guts and, and go for it.

Speaker A: Uh, I love it. So many things there really, in terms of just not just trying to fit in, but really, really working on the outcomes that you want to drive. And thanks for sharing, by the way. I think it's super important that people can hear those, those, uh, vulnerabilities. Right. And, and then how you address them. The issue of imposter syndrome. All the things we've all faced all the time. Right. But I think this idea of, you know, focus on what you can control and influence and drive, and then that impact just drives opportunity often. I do agree with you, and we've all been through it. Right. The next promotion, the next title. Who do I report to? How big is my organization? Um, it's quite interesting, actually. Today, in the world that we live in, with the technology the way it is, actually the size of the organization is no longer important. Your title is no longer important. It's entirely what you're going to do with not only the technology, but how you're going to actually influence the world as a result of that. So it's absolutely correct. And I, I love what you're saying because it does just free the mind.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, you know, you don't just kind of kill yourself by saying, oh, my God, if I had only done that. If I couldn't do that, I hope I didn't say that. Should have said it better. All these things that really worry us. Did you always think that you wanted to be a CEO? A bit contrary to what we just said. Right. For a moment. But, like, did you have a plan on a page? You know, you were like, I'm going to do this in my life, whatever this is. Early on in your career, or did that just evolve?

Speaker B: Um, I think to a great extent it evolved. But what I would say after this experience, I did have a plan on a page in some ways, and I believe in it in terms of knowing your end game. And that might change over time, but it's not about this next job or next thing necessarily, but it's actually five jobs later, ten years from now. Who do you want to be? What do you want to be remembered for, if you will, as a leader? Who do you. How do you want to show up? And it did make me think, uh, about that plan. Although it's evolved over time and it might not have been as ambitious or at the time, certainly, it certainly wasn't presumptuous as the role of the CEO in it. Uh, this is 20 years ago. But it did give me the clarity of what do I have, what do I take to the next job from a technical as well as leadership and sort of, you know, soft skills, other skills that you take to a role and whatever it was, you know, five years, 10 years down the line that I wanted m. And what. Where you know, and talking to some people to see what are those key characteristics that those people have, what experiences have they had. And then as I was going through my career to be very discerning

Speaker A: about

Speaker B: that next step or next job that was ultimately getting me closer to that end game rather than just go for the next. And several times I turned down actually promotions and opportunity where people thought it would be good for me to do that I would be really good at. But I didn't feel it was, you know, I felt, yeah, if I did that, but then the next one will be really difficult. It doesn't get me closer to where I'm trying to go. So it made me be much more deliberate about my direction of travel and genuinely taking ownership of my own career and my choices. Um, because often I had people, you know, some of them, I would call some benevolent, you um, know, uh, sort of thoughts. You know, I remember at one time when I had just moved back from Trinidad to the US I had been in the job for only, goodness, I don't know, we, you know, I don't think that even unpacked, barely, um, in the US and then something else came up and it was primarily in the uk, in London. And I know one of, uh, one of my bosses and I had, I always had in functional and line roles. I had multiple bosses. And one of them, uh, I heard had said, you know, no, she's just come back. It's just not going to work. You know, think about family, blah, blah, blah. It's not going to work. And it was fascinating. I went to his office and I said, you know, you've got to ask me.

Speaker A: Yes,

Speaker B: right. It's my choice. I've got. It may not work, but I've got to think about it. And he said, yeah, you got to be careful, you know, you, your husband, blah, blah, blah. And I. And I said, you know, we've always. You can't make assumptions about people's choices and there's no right or wrong in that. At the end, I ended up taking the role. I Said, but here's what it's going to take. My husband stays where he is. I'm not going to move him again, but I'm going to do the commute, which I did for about three years, and it worked out and it was fantastic. It was a great sort of opportunity for me. But actually, again, the system was of a sort of a different mindset about, uh, the timing of the choices that as a woman, I should make or not.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I love that example. I think this is probably why we got to know each other. So lots of reasons for wanting you to have taken that particular, you know, move. I do remember when we, uh, and we talk a lot, just informally, about this kind of thing, and I remember when you were moving between the CFO role, which you had, let's be honest, built an entire brand around, delivered great impact around, loved it as well. And in that role, you saw so much about what was happening within businesses. But then I remember when you made that very purposeful decision to go to Woodside. Well, at that time, not Woodside, but, you know,

Speaker B: and.

Speaker A: And it was because you said, you know what? Tunisia. I really need to get to that operational side, because otherwise I'm not going to, you know, three, four, five years from now lead a business in its entirety. Right. And you made that very difficult decision, by the way. Um, and then you had to go to Australia, which was. I remember thinking, oh, my God. Uh, and then coming back from Australia. And, you know, but I think. But it was such an adventure for the two of you as well. Right? I mean, in fact, I love to kind of get your sense about that, you know, in terms of the role of international exposure, different functional role exposure, central versus field. You know what I mean? Like, do you think those were some of the characteristics? I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Sorry, the question's not being asked. Right. Were those some of those characteristics that you were referring to earlier when you were watching these people that were real role models in your life?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, it is something that I genuinely believe is key for people and women especially and minorities overall to think about earlier. Um, I think, you know, on one aspect, I would say, as I said, take opportunities when they come and jump on them. Um, I think getting that. One of the things I wanted, at the point where you're referring to, I did want to see myself in a very senior business leadership role. And honestly, at, uh, the time, I'd already started thinking, you know, actually, you know, even. Even longer term, I Would like to make a difference around the boards as well. And, you know, as a woman, you know, get to chairmanship, say, I knew I had cfo. I wanted to actually do the operational side and the CEO kind of roles to prepare me now for that next thing that I haven't even got yet. I always say to my teams, there's no one road to Mecca, right? It's not one path. We've all had very different experiences. But I do think, uh, having the openness and the international, uh, exposure, the mobility that we've had has broadened our perspective. My perspective, to understand different cultures, to understand different way of working things that would motivate people in the UK or the US Even. UK and US are quite different. Definitely did not work in Trinidad, for example. You know, it grows you, um, you know, new muscles that you didn't know existed in you as a leader about, okay, how do I now figure out how to motivate, how to excite people, um, to do that next step? I'm a massive believer in building trust. It's foundational to any, uh, sort of team and leadership experience. And it takes time, but to do that, it is, um, it's. It sort of opens up the opportunity for people to do a lot more than they might have otherwise. For you.

Speaker A: Yeah,

Speaker B: yeah. I think it's. It does open up something for you when you have a broader experience. Um, it touches on diversity. I'm sure we'll touch on that as well. Because it's all one thing to bring diverse teams together. You can multiply the impact that you have. And I've done it so many times. I think it really has a massive impact. But in order for people to, you know, diverse team, to genuinely fulfill their potential, there needs to be a culture of trust so that they can absolutely bring everything from their diversity into the table. And I think that has, um, helped me see what could be possible.

Speaker A: I agree. And I actually think a lot of people think trust equals consensus or agreement all the time. And I actually think, you know, trust is actually based on so many different things. Right. It's also having that ability to challenge openly a culture that allows you to speak up, disagree. Um, a culture that allows you. Doesn't matter what age you are, what tenure you are, what grade you are, whether you're male, female, or other, you know, diverse profile, you know, that you can actually feel like you could have a word, have a say, have your voice heard, you know, and certainly I've experienced cases where that wasn't the case. And, you know, Trying to make sure that as leaders we able, we're able to do that is super, super important. Right. Um,

Speaker B: I think that's spot on. Uh, you know, we say you gotta be able to have scrappy conversations. Respectfully. It's part of that building of that trusting environment. And, uh, you know, you don't, you can't hold grudges on that basis. You need to be able to, you know, it's, it's challenging ideas and thoughts. It's not, it's not people,

Speaker A: it's

Speaker B: not attacking people. And being able to create an environment where people can fully be themselves and bring different ideas and question other ideas or my ideas. Having that humility that sometimes you're wrong and somebody else knows way better is actually really important to building that fundamental thing that is a trusting relationship inside teams. Uh, uh, that really helps. People want to run through walls with you, actually, because they know you've got their back as well. Uh, and yet, let's have this scrappy conversation. And you choose a direction and ultimately you move on together in an aligned way. Um, but you've got to hear it all out and you need to close the loop. If you don't choose something and somebody feels strongly about it, you can have that conversation. Consensus is not actually, you can become paralyzed by consensus sometimes.

Speaker A: And I know we only have a few minutes left, so I had, um, a couple more questions, but maybe just to dig on this one a little bit more, because I think it's important. What tips or practical things have you learned? And it sounds like very much part of your leadership style, um, to be able to create that inclusive environment like, and, you know, I know this is. There's no rocket science here, and it's not one magic bullet,

Speaker B: but

Speaker A: what are one or two things you would say that are things you do as a leader that help you achieve the trust, the accountability, the challenge, the ability to speak up, all that stuff we just talked about.

Speaker B: Goodness, it is a massive question. First of all, from just from pure experience, uh, I've always found the teams that I've had that have had diversity and diversity in any shape. One of my early sort of roles was diversity in terms of people's experiences. Geologists and geophysicists in a commercial team. Right. As well as engineers and finance and commercial people, bringing that creates something different. It multiplies. You get 2 and 2 and you get 15 out of it. That is pretty important, I think, um, having the humility to know that you've never got to stop learning. You've got to be curious, people are super generous with their knowledge and, and their insights. Be humble enough to learn it. I think it's Steve Jobs that said it. Um, there's no point in employing super smart people and then telling them what to do. You actually employ them because they can tell you what's the right thing to do. Right. And that is something I absolutely believe. Uh, if you are the right, yes, you can have high standards. That's sort of table stakes. That performance part is the table stakes. But when you build that culture of trust, which means, um, people actually seeing you walk the walk, people seeing you support them, going out of your way to help them take obstacles away for them. That's the biggest job of a leader, is to solve problems for people who are trying to get something done every day, um, and having their back. When something happens, it's learned from whatever happened. Things do go wrong in any business and it isn't about who did what. It's about, okay, what happened, what did we learn? How do we go about never doing this again or not letting this happen to anyone else again? Yes. It's not a personal thing again. I think all of that creates that culture of trust and ah, it's just important to just be human. Recognize all of these things are part of being a human. You make mistakes, people make mistakes. How do you move on? How do you learn from it?

Speaker A: Shiva, thank you. I do have one final question for you, but feel free to add a couple more thoughts, um, in terms of what you'd leave our listeners with. But the one I'd love to ask you is what is the best advice you ever received? And I guess the contrary. What's the worst advice you ever received?

Speaker B: You know, this is a funny one. Probably this is the, you know, best advice and worst advice in one. Because at the time I thought it was the worst advice, but actually, um, it's turned out to be really handy and I actually think it was probably one of the best things that anyone told me at the time. Time. This, this was pretty early in my career. I, we, you know, um, BP went through a merger takeover with arco. I came from arco, smaller US company into bp. And um, you know, the, um, the process of the merger was very extended. One, it was all took over a year and a bit because it was going through competition, review, et cetera. So it created a lot of uncertainty for people. And I remember one of the first meetings we had with one of the, the seniors at bp. Um, uh, you know, we're asking about, uh, what's this sort of what are the next step? When will people know what happens to them, etc. And this guy said, uh, yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty and you have to learn to thrive in ambiguity. And at the time I thought, what a not answer. Ah, you know, it was kind of, um, you know, I was very young and I wanted a, you know, black and white, clear cut sort of direction. But it struck me at the time though, and it stayed with me, uh, especially in my industry. It's a volatile industry. It's very dynamic. You know, in the different geographies, you know, there's always a lot of uncertainty and a lot of changes and a lot of cyclicality and, and uh, it's just massively helped me learn to adapt and make decisions in the face of uncertainty and volatility. But appreciate that I can only influence what I can influence.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And then go after those and genuinely make much better and faster decision not to become paralyzed in the sense, uh, in the, in the case of uncertainty, which is almost like a. That's the only constant in, in my world, in our world has been change. That's the only constant I've had. So therefore it's allowed me to make better decisions, understand what I can influence and what is that? What is a good outcome and, and be much more flexible to think about scenarios and therefore be able to read those little, um, you know, little signposts that may not be loud beacons, but they're little glimmers of something and then be able to be much more responsive. When you've thought of something already as a possibility, then it's much easier to pivot and adjust and adapt and um. So, yeah, whilst at the time I thought it was a really crappy advice, I've. It's really served me well in my, in my world.

Speaker A: It's a great one. It captures so many things you've said throughout this podcast. By the way, Shiva, from taking rests to continuous learning, leaning in with your sponsors, trying new things, new countries, new functions, new roles, to thriving under ambiguity. Uh, taking that feedback, calibrating it. Ah, figuring out what you want to do with it. Gosh, so much to unpack here. It's been a phenomenal conversation. Thank you, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're somewhere wonderful, I'm sure, in the world. Um, and honestly, this new role you've taken, I'm super excited for you and I think there's just so much that's going to come both from learning, uh, more learning, uh, and I'm sure great outcome. So thank you, Shiva.

Speaker B: Oh, thank you, Tanuja. It's been an absolute pleasure. If I were to say one thing, I think as you. As you become a senior leader, everyone sees the whole. That performance edge. That's the piece. You got to work hard. All of that, to me, is a given, but I think what I would love to leave everyone with is that human side, which is just as important. And a quote from Maya Angelou, that, again, has just been really fundamental for me. Uh, I learned at first in a safety and operations sort of world, but actually, it's so much bigger than that. And it is about people always forget what you said to them, but they will never forget how you made them feel. So as leaders, just remember that, uh, and go and be bold and curious. Uh,

Speaker A: I love it. It's a great place. It's a great place to start. Thank you so much. Seriously, Shiva, enjoy the rest of the summer, and I

Speaker B: look forward

Speaker A: to catching up with you. I'm sure in September, somewhere in the world.

Speaker B: Can't wait. Looking forward to it.

Speaker A: Take care. Ah.

Speaker B: Bye.