Customer Engagement for Successful Deals // With Josh Braun

Hey, everyone, welcome to Pit Stops to Podium, the Red Partners podcast, where we talk to execs who compete in one, taking their companies from high growth to high scale. My name is Brendan Tollison. I serve as a co-founder and CEO of Red Partners, and I'm delighted to have with me today, Josh Braun for this episode of Pit Stops to Podium. Welcome, Josh.

Thanks for having me. Well, Josh, this is a fun one. I was sharing a little bit with you earlier that I feel like I know you, even though we've never talked before, because I've followed your content for years now. And you inspired a lot of how we went to market with RevPartner.

So this really is a privilege and a delight to have this conversation. So thanks for coming on board. I appreciate the opportunity. Well, Josh, for those that may not know who you are, this is a platform for you to share a little about what you do today and maybe a little bit of the backstory for our audience to know how you got to be, you know, I'll call you a social media influencer or one that can really speak into the sales process.

Yeah, so I had been selling for about seven years, reading all the traditional sales books, and thought it was my job to talk people into buying. In 2007, I landed a meeting with one of our whale accounts, which was the Dish Network. I was selling for Jellyvision, which was a small boutique digital agency in Chicago. And that meeting went so well that we had subsequent meetings over the course of a month or so, which eventually led us to flying out to Englewood, which was Dish's headquarters, and actually pitching the executive team, my boss and I, Amanda Lannert.

And that pitch, while we were doing it, every executive was like nodding their head. And afterwards, Carol, who headed up Digital Strategy, told us that we knocked it out of the park. And we're like high-fiving each other on the plane on the ride home, thinking that this is going to be a monster deal. A few weeks later, I reach out to Carol to follow up for next steps, and she doesn't get back to me.

So I call her, I don't hear back. Call, email, call, email. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. And that deal never closes.

And I never find out why until a couple years later, when I see on LinkedIn that she got a new job, Hit her up on the DM, which leads to a phone conversation. And of course, on the phone call, I say, hey, what happened to that deal? And in a rather nonchalant, matter of fact way, she said, oh, we just did it internally. And then I said, well, how come you didn't let me know?

And I'll never forget what she said to me. She goes, I was afraid of you. I go, afraid of me? I can't even bench 125 pounds.

I'm like, what should I be afraid of? She goes, I was afraid you were going to try to talk me into going with you. You were kind of persuasive back then. And I thought it would just be easier to just not say anything and disappear.

And it was at that moment that I learned that persuasion backfires. There's a time for it, but it's not at the beginning of a relationship with a prospect. The goal is not to actually talk people into buying at the beginning. It's actually develop trust.

Because without trust, you end up being ghosted. Without trust, you end up taking a long time to lose. without trust, you sort of don't know where you stand. So I've devoted my entire career starting at that point into how to not persuade people, how to get them to lower the zone of resistance that people typically have around salespeople because they know salespeople have a vested interest.

And that's what I've devoted my career to since then. Well, yeah, I love this story, the power of storytelling, but also to take that experience and to not only learn from it, but ultimately to help others grow as a result of that. And it's a bit of a paradigm shift to your point, because it feels like most oftentimes what you're told is to be persuasive in sales. And you're saying you should, in fact, do the opposite.

And I want to unpack that further. That actually gets into our big idea. But before we do that, Josh, I'd like to take a moment to pause. And we do have a tradition here at Pit Stops and Podium, and that's to get to know our guests outside of work.

So when you're not helping sales reps, how are you spending your time? I like to bike, swim and run. I do these triathlons. I also enjoy playing the guitar and reading, listening to music.

What about the bench press? Have you picked that up yet? You know, it's a problem. It's a problem.

You can see I got to work on it. I got to work on it. Yeah, actually with triathlons, it's probably not the best thing to be doing in your spare time as well. So, well, that's fine.

Well, Josh, let's transition into what some of the things you were just talking about. When you said, hey, what's the right way to approach sales? You talked about how to teach them not to be persuasive. So, I really want to park on this whole idea of how to drive customer engagement to ultimately create win-win outcomes.

And maybe we should start really around this idea of why do people buy and why they don't buy? Because I think that will set the contextual layer as we move forward in the conversation. Yeah. So, the best way that I can do this is by telling a short little story that happens to be true.

So several years ago, I was in the mall with my wife and I did not need anything. We were just there. She was shopping or returning something. We were going to grab dinner at True Food, which is a restaurant of the town center mall in Boca.

And to just kill some time, I walked into a fit to run store. So if the store associate said, what brings you in today? What do you think I would have said? I'm just looking around I just looking around If she said can I help you What do you think I would have said No I good If she said we just got in these new Brooks sneakers and man, are they lighter than any sneaker Brooks has ever made, can I show them to you?

What do you think I would have said? Sure. Remember, I wasn't needing sneakers. So what do you think I might have said?

No, thanks. Not interested today. Not interested. But she didn't do any of those things.

She looked down at my sneakers. She said, are you a runner? I said, yes. She goes, are you training for any races?

And I said, actually, I am training for my first half marathon. And then she said, you've probably had a running gait test. And I said, what's that? And moments later, I'm on a treadmill in the store.

I could actually send you a video of this if you want to put it in the show notes. She freezes the frame as I'm running on the treadmill and she zooms in on my ankles. And she goes, notice how your ankles are over pronating when you run. And I said, so?

And she goes, well, the problem is if you run in sneakers that are not made for pronated feet, you increase the chances of getting plantar fasciitis and runner's knee, which can sideline you for your race. Sometimes plantar fasciitis can last anywhere from three months to like a year. If you'd like, I could take a look at your sneakers to see if they're made for pronated feet. And about seven minutes later, I'm spending $180 on new sneakers and insoles.

So from an outbound perspective, the moral of the story is no matter what you sell, people are running in sneakers today. And so what ends up happening oftentimes when people go to market is they pretend that people don't have sneakers and they're starting to sell their Brooks sneakers, which is why they hear all the time, I have a vendor for that, I'm not interested. So the magic superpower here is you have to shine a light on a meaningfully different idea about a problem that your prospect doesn't know about.

Otherwise, you're sort of a vanilla scoop and a sea of vanilla scoops. And that's where most outbound go-to-market messages fail because they're trying to sell faster Brooks sneakers. Well, I love that story. And I think it's really a powerful way to capture that idea.

And oftentimes you talk about that as this whole concept of being a red X, right? And so when you start telling, hey, if I'm a rep or manager and I'm saying team, we have to know they already have Brooks shoes, right? Or they already have some solution to Brooks or some solution to the running shoes. How do they, similar to that associate at the store, how do they take that same concept and apply it into their product or service?

I'll give you a concrete example. So I have a podcast like you do. Well, let me ask you a question. We've not talked before this, so let's imagine I'm calling you.

Hey, typically I hear that podcasters are using a couple of different tools to edit and promote their podcast. They're using like a Riverside FM to record their podcast. And maybe they're using like Apple Logic or Adobe Audition to edit. And then perhaps they're using something like a headliner or like a rev to sort of make little promo clips and add subtitles.

How are you going about editing and promoting your podcast today? What tools are you using? Is that a question or are you? That's a question.

That's a question. We use Riverside as our tool for recording. And then we use, I'm trying, Igor can probably give me a better answer on the tools we use for clips and promotional purposes. But there are two or three other tools we have in the portfolio.

What are those tools, Igor, specifically? Actually, we edit it on Premiere, Premiere Pro. And then we add subs using the script. And that's pretty much it.

So if I'm using Adobe Premiere Pro, that's how they're currently doing it today. And you mentioned a little bit about Descript, but if I'm selling Descript and someone's not using Descript, maybe they're using a Premiere Pro or Headliner or Subtitles. After I learn the current way, I have to have a hypothesis about the terrible, no good, very bad thing that happens if they keep doing it the current way. So if you're using tools like Premiere Pro, typically in order to edit a waveform, and Igor would probably know this, you kind of go into the waveforms.

if we made a mistake, and you got to edit the waveforms. If you mispronounce a name, you got to rerecord the name. It's a rather cumbersome process to remove ums and ahs. If you're using another tool to add subtitles, that's another tool, and that could also take substantial time.

And then if you're using another tool to make little promotional clips, like you have to go into a Premiere Pro and create separate clips, that's also some time. Now, with Descript, all of that goes away. with the script, you could edit a podcast like a Word doc. So after I find out the current way, I might simply say, have you thought about using a technology that would allow you to edit your podcast like a Word doc?

I'm going to presuppose that you've actually heard of this thing that I'm selling, but I'm going to create contrast between what you have and what you want to stop doing. But to answer your question I got to know at a very crispy or detailed level which is what I was saying I was naming the tools Are you using like Riverside I got to know the current way and what the problem is with the current way What's the potential problem? It might not be a problem to the prospect, but I got to have that hypothesis.

What is the Achilles heel of the current way? And from there, we're going to simply ask a question to shine a light on what's possible. You guys have probably considered using Descript and no other tools. Like, I'm going to ask Igor that right now because I'm kind of curious, Igor, why he's using...

Igor, you've probably considered just using Descript only and not Premiere Pro. Now, watch what I'm going to do. I'm going to shut my mouth and let Igor answer. Yes, I did.

But I usually do a little cleaning up on the audio before using Isotope. And sometimes I have to use Audition to edit the audio to do some cuts that we need. And I don't feel that Descript allows me to work on the audio with the options that I need. Let's just pause for a second.

Look at how much different that is than the traditional sales approach of. The reason that I call is to share this breakthrough tool with you called Descript. It turns out, guess what? Igor is familiar with Descript.

Why? Because he edits podcasts. It's the same thing with your prospect. No matter what you're selling, even if it's commission software.

Now, it's possible that I know something that Igor doesn't know about the script. Because I might say, hey, Igor, when was the last time you looked at the script? Today. Today.

So if there's no problem and there's no delta and we can't solve that problem, there's no reason for Igor to want to switch fully over to the script. However, sometimes there is that delta and the person doesn't know what's possible. But in this case, there isn't. So there's nothing to sell here.

But notice what I didn't do. I didn't pitch anything. I'm coming from a place of inquiry. I'm thinking like a scientist.

I'm going to presuppose Igor is not a moron. And I'm going to get a lot of information from him. Igor is not a moron. So that's good.

But yeah, I like the idea. To your point, have a hypothesis. You need to understand and know their current, have an opinion and know what the tools are for those specific categories. and to be able to shine a light to your point of current state, may it's desired future state or potential problem.

And I would imagine that shining that light probably helps from an objection perspective. So in this example, Igor mentioned, hey, I looked at today, so scripted is not necessarily a great tool for me. But when you're working with clients and you understand what those objections are and you know the future state, you're able to actually attack that in a much more effective fashion. So I don't believe in the word objections.

Okay. Let me tell you a little bit about why that is. because objections is this word that makes you feel like you are a trial lawyer trying to overcome an objection. Salespeople, when they hear that word, there's this visceral reaction of, this is something I have to overcome.

Persuasion. Igor using the script is not an objection. That's the truth. Yeah.

That's not an objection. When someone says I'm using something for this, that's not, I'm using running sneakers. I have Brooks running sneakers. That's not an objection.

That's the truth. But what happens is salespeople think, I got to overcome that. So I like to call this a different word. And again, I'll just tell a short two-minute story.

Most resistance that you hear on a cold call is because of what the salesperson is saying before the resistance comes. Because if I were to say to Igor, I got this new product called The Script, and it's a breakthrough in editing podcast, he's going to say, I'm not interested. because he already knows what it is. He's already using it.

But if I were to say, hey, Igor, I know most people are using a couple of different tools. What tool are you using? He's going to answer it like he answered it. He's going to say, well, I'm using this and that.

How's that been going? When was the last time you looked into the script? Maybe there's an opening there or not. Here, I'll give you an example, Brandon, of this in clear, you know, crystal clear way.

And we haven't rehearsed this. You just answer it how you want to answer it. Brandon, the best flavor ice cream in the world, bar none, is pistachio. Don't you agree?

No. Okay. Now watch this. That's what a salesperson would call that an objection.

They're disagreeing. Now watch this. Brandon, I know that the most popular flavor ice creams are vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry. What's your favorite flavor?

Chocolate. But it's very difficult for Brandon to say no. Yeah. And what salespeople do is they come at prospects with statements like that all the time.

So resistance often happens because of what the salesperson is saying. Look, resistance is also a natural part of the sales process. Look, if I go to the dog park, I have a little dog, and I expect there to be no poop in the lawn at the dog park. I am going to be very disappointed.

because the nature of a dog park is poop. If I go to a family-friendly restaurant and I expect to have a romantic dinner, I'm going to be disappointed because the nature of a family-friendly restaurant is loud kids running around and parents ignoring them The nature of sales especially outbound is resistance because it a salesperson and everyone knows salespeople have a vested interest The nature of sales is prospects ghosting you. The nature of sales is you're going to lose deals that prospects said you would win.

If we go into sales not expecting those things, that's like going to a dog park, not expecting there to be poop. But if we go into sales thinking, my objective is to not only serve, but to move in harmony with the nature of sales, it changes everything. Surfers don't look at waves and say, that wave was rejecting me. Good and bad waves are all part of the same experience.

We just want to take it as it comes. And when you have that mindset and intent, prospects can feel it. They don't feel the push. I call it dropping the sword because salespeople come and they bring a sword and they try to overcome objections.

I mean, if you're selling an iPod in 2011, the people that are running with portable music, they're already using portable music players. So if someone says I'm using a Diamond Rio 300, the traditional sales approach is I understand how you feel. Most people that were using a Diamond Rio felt the same way. But what they found was when they moved to an iPod, it was so much better.

And that's going to create resistance versus I'm using a Diamond Rio 300. Smart move. Those guys pretty much were first to market in the portable music space. They kind of invented the wheel that makes it easy to skip songs.

What's been your experience with the Rio? How's it been going for you? And then you might simply say, hey, I know when that device came out, It has 32 megs of memory, which means it holds about 30 minutes of music. How are you dealing with that when you go on your longer two-hour runs?

Are you like listening to the same songs over and over again, or are you changing them out like once a week? You've probably looked into the iPod. Well, I have, and it wasn't for me. Oh, it sounds like the value wasn't there for you.

Or what's the iPod? You see, it's a different approach. You're thinking like a scientist. You're sort of moving with the ocean versus fighting it.

Yeah, there's a lot of impact there. I like the challenge on the idea of objections and thinking of it more as resistance, I think, is the way that you would turn that. Putting the sword down and really coming, walking alongside the prospect. and to your point, the scientific method, whatever you want to use, but just a way of showing curiosity and trying to help them see the problem as opposed to telling them there's a problem.

It allows for that, I would call it more of a dialogue versus a monologue and you ultimately have that ability to help spotlight it and ultimately help them see a better future state because you've earned their trust to your original point. I want to make one subtle difference and this was really beautifully illustrated with Igor. So when you think it's your intent to talk everyone into buying, what ends up happening is I would try to convince Igor to get rid of all his tools and just use the script.

Yep. If there's no problem, your solution has no value. Yep. So the idea here is it's not your job to talk everyone into buying.

Your job is to shine a light on a potential problem to see if that problem resonates with the prospect and to be curious about how they're responding without actually attaching yourself to any desired outcome. It's almost like you're sort of, there's like an indifference about it. I mean, I'll sort of illustrate this, you know, one more time. And so this is, so for my business, I'm a sales trainer and coach.

Hey, Josh, and I get calls like this all the time. We'd love for you to come out and train our team. The traditional approach is, well, let me tell you about myself. I've been in sales for 25 years.

I've worked with companies like Snowflake and HubSpot and Zendesk. I've written a book. I got a podcast and I can surely help your team. That's sort of traditional approaches.

Let me tell you how great I am. If you're indifferent, you might simply say something like this. what's motivating you to want to look at a trainer now? And then you might say, you guys have been individual contributors.

It looks like you sell into HR, specifically benefits directors. Wouldn't it be easier and less expensive for you guys to train them versus bringing someone like me in? I'm expensive. Right?

It's sort of like it's an indifference. You're not so needy. You're kind of an equal stature. You're going to make them work for it a little bit.

versus the traditional sales approach, which is I better sell you on me. Yeah, I like that a lot. Well, Josh, I could listen to you all day. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

For our, in your best indifferent approach, what's the next step our audience can take if they want to learn more about you, your coaching, training, or just some of the content that you put out? LinkedIn's good. And then my website, joshbraun.com.

All right, Josh, really do appreciate the time. Like I said, let's definitely stay in touch and our audience I'm sure will be reaching out to learn more from you. Thanks, Brandon. Thank you.