Mary Wisniewski on Instant Payments: Why 24/7 Money Movement on the RTP® Network Is Reshaping Banking, Consumer Expectations, and Fintech Innovation

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Payments Nerds, the official podcast of the clearinghouse. I'm Greg McSweeney and I'm your host. This episode was recorded live at Fintech Meetup in Las Vegas back in early April. Fintech Meetup brings together thousands of attendees from banks, credit unions, of course, fintechs, technology companies, and payments experts as well. In this special episode of Payments Nerds, I spoke with one of the speakers from FinTech beat up, who is also a well known person and commentator in the banking and fintech space. Mary Wisniewski joined me for the episode to share her thoughts on what's going on with instant payments and innovation in general in the banking and fintech markets. When we recorded the episode, Mary was editor at large for Cornerstone Advisors. Since then, Mary has joined Atomic where she is now head of content. With that brief intro, let's enjoy the show.

Speaker B: Mary, thanks for joining me today.

Speaker C: Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's a treat to be here.

Speaker B: It is. Great. So I followed you for a number of years and you're at Bankrate, um, and now you're at Cornerstone now for three years. I can't believe it's been three years.

Speaker C: I know, I'm at a consultancy.

Speaker B: Um, but you're still kind of. You still have your reporting roots and you're still doing the reporting.

Speaker C: I will never lose. I hope I never lose them.

Speaker B: You do, uh, uh, the Money Isn't Everything podcast. That's a Cornerstone Advisors podcast. And you also do your LinkedIn, um, newsletter, finteching with Mary. So I read that this morning. It just came out.

Speaker C: Thank you. Yeah, I love to treat it like, um, an editor's note of a glossy magazine where it's like these are like these fun little things that happen in this world this month.

Speaker B: Well, it's like the page six.

Speaker C: Yes, it's the page six of FinTech. I gotta make it juicier.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, maybe you don't want to go there. So we're at Fintech Meetup here. Um, this is day two of the show.

Speaker C: Day two feels like day ten.

Speaker B: I know. This place is so spread out. You're walking all over the place. Um, what are you finding at the show? What's interesting and what's.

Speaker C: Well, I. The scuttlebutt, or all the conversations seem to be skewing towards Stablecoin. That's not so surprising. But that seems to be like, um, as people say, the shiny object that everybody can't get enough of. So it's having its moment. It's the main character. Um, but one thing that I found really exciting was I was able to uh, listen in on the open banking panel, um, yesterday. And so I was talking about from the credit union perspective of the, the data. Right. And like, um, of you know, wanting to be able to share it with fintech companies, but also like what's the burden on the credit union or bank? And of course it's like figuring out liability that I've always thought about and that's a known argument in the industry. But the twist or something I just hadn't thought enough about is the reputational risk, that side of the liability and like the encouragement of like when things go wrong, because they will go wrong, um, that the partner who caused the problem, they need to be like, hey consumer, it was me. I mean cue the Taylor Swift song. Like that's what. So I found that really interesting or like another dimension to a really long going argument.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean open banking has been uh, evolving and growing for years and it seems like we're at that point now where all the other partners are getting involved. And you're right, who holds a responsibility? What happens? Because things do go wrong.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So it's uh, I'm sure we'll be working through it. We'll be hearing stories about.

Speaker C: Hearing story. I mean that used to be my main beat at American bankers. So I remember like covering something about Capital One and like blocking data access at the time. And it was like such a big story and you know, it's just, it's the never ending story.

Speaker B: That's right. It just keeps coming back.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: So let's, um, you know, we're here. You were, uh, this is a payments podcast called Payments Nerds. So let's talk a little bit about what's going on in the payments world. Uh, we'll start with the obvious. Instant payments. Um, you know, we have the RTP network, we have FedNow, uh, and global Real time systems. And we've been talking about this for. This is another thing we've been talking about for years. Not as long as open banking.

Speaker C: No, not quite, but it's been there for a while. Yeah.

Speaker B: From your vantage point, are we at a tipping point yet with instant payments and uh, or where are we in the overall process?

Speaker C: It's always hard to tell where we are in the story. Right. We're certainly like, I'd like to think we're at a tipping point. Um, we're definitely more than we were seven years ago or whatever. But like has it fully swung? I don't know. I think it could always use more. Could always use more. I don't know. Do you think we're at a tipping point?

Speaker B: Um, we're starting to see it, um, we're starting to see a broader adoption from consumers. Um, and they're using a lot of different ways for a lot of different use cases. And we'll talk about use cases in a minute. Um, and we're seeing, uh, businesses try to adopt it too. And I think one of the things we're hearing is it's not just about the speed. Speed's great. Uh, but it's about two other characteristics of instant payments. It's um, 24 by 7 availability. Sure. So consumers and businesses can do that payment on a Saturday morning or a Sunday night. Like, oh, no, I forgot to pay. Today's the due date for my credit card. I got to do the payment right now. Or my, my utility bill is due today. I totally forgot. I can just send it out then and there. Yeah, we've all been there. Um, so that's the one thing. And are on the RTP network. Almost half the transactions are outside of normal business hour or banking hours. Right. So a normal banking day and all. Of course, if you really want to get payment nerdsy about, you have the ACH different windows and everything like that.

Speaker C: But there was a joke set at this conference. Uh, did you sit in on the payments panel that was on the phone?

Speaker B: I did.

Speaker C: Did you hear the yes, the ACH goes to the bar joke?

Speaker B: Yes, I did.

Speaker C: The joke was that the ACH goes to the bar and gets the drink the next day.

Speaker B: That's right, exactly.

Speaker C: But like that's after 4pm, right? Because you can get ach same day.

Speaker B: You get the same day ach. Yeah, but if you miss that last window, it's, it's then your drinks the next day.

Speaker C: I was like, oh, no, I've been too long in this world

Speaker B: Payments jokes. Yes, exactly. I did hear that one yesterday. Elena Casao, our chief client officer, she was on that.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So that was great. Um, so after hours availability to do payments is very important. And that's something that we would talk about, the speed. But it's that 24 by 7 availability,

Speaker C: I think, that's so important. It brings up something interesting that I heard. Um, there was like a more affluent product talking about how they'll help float, um, early paycheck to like, wealthier clients. So there was like, like I'll still call it Twitter sphere because I don't know how to Call it X Fear. I don't know, I don't know how to do it. But it was like, you know, oh, why, why? This is a silly feature for someone who has a bunch of money. But the point of it was why they wanted it was because like they don't want to pay their bills like on a Friday that's date night. They want to have the like Wednesday option to like move their, you know, get their money and move it around wherever it needs to go. So I'm like, oh, this is about like convenience. People's. Yeah, convenience and letting people choose their terms.

Speaker B: Right. And it lets people bank the way they want to bank, send payments away. Just like people will download the latest movie the minute they want it rather than, you know, back to the blockbuster days or, you know, order it and it gets, comes in the mail now they get it when they want it. Same with ridesharing. You get it when you want it. You don't have to do it in advance.

Speaker C: Still people want same day paycheck. Like, I still hear more like needs, needs and desires for like, don't make me wait.

Speaker B: And it's, it's interesting when you talk to younger, um, people, uh, joining the workforce now, maybe they're in high school, maybe they're just having their first, you know, part time job and they're like, wait a second, I, I just worked all week, work like 30 hours, let's say. Why am I getting paid next Friday? Yeah, like, why don't I get the money now? And it's, they don't understand it. And we understand, I mean we, well, we understand it, but we understand why it's like that. But really they're kind of right.

Speaker C: They are right.

Speaker B: Like, why is that company sitting on my money for seven days or ten days or maybe do you get paid every two week? It's 14 days.

Speaker C: I know. No, it's a while. And I remember like even years ago, people were like nervous like, oh, can people handle managing their cash flow if they're getting like every like payday every day or whenever they want it. But I'm like, yeah, I mean, uh, if they need it then, um, or

Speaker B: want it, it seems like it's there for me. I don't know if that would work for me because I kind of, I'm used to the, every two weeks I'm used to the flow. But for somebody else, like, if that's all, you know, you know, you'll learn to manage it efficiently daily, I think so hopefully see how that goes. Yeah. And one of the uh, characteristics uh, of instant payments is precision. You can kind of what we were talking about. You can make that payment anytime you want to up to the last second and have uh, that flexibility. You don't have to worry about windows closing. You don't have to worry about business hours. It's 7am M. On a Sunday, 2 in the morning, you wake up like I didn't pay this, I have to

Speaker C: pay it, I have to pay it, but I have to. I heard this here at this conference like oh, oh, I've been hearing this too. There's starting to be like a desire for like slow it down a little bit too like for like the riskier especially like the business transactions of like oh, this is a lot of money and I want to send it but I want maybe I want like a few more little barriers or friction or whatever you want to call it. I've been hearing here at this conference so you know like a very fintech forward. Just like it's because of all the fraud. Right. Like so like slowing down. I'm not saying that's the direction we're headed. Obviously it's not the direction we're at it. But like I think we're going to start seeing some brands say oh, in this little bit of friction is a positive.

Speaker B: That's true. I mean although we do have other payment rails for that.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: So yes, you know, uh, you're, if uh, you're doing large cross border payments you're probably going to do a wire. Um and there are lots of safeguards built into that. Ach is could be same day but it could be a day or two later. There are still checks. It could still write a check and it could take, I write a check,

Speaker C: but I write a check because my apartment has me write a check.

Speaker B: Right, exactly. Not because I want to, but if I have to.

Speaker C: Yeah. Reluctantly every time I order it I'm like uh, ugh, what am I paying for this?

Speaker B: I know I got a couple bucks checks. Exactly. Um, so that's an interesting point about slowing things down a little bit. But let's talk about the use cases versus the hype that we're seeing in the marketplace. Um, you know, you know there's a lot of fintech narratives, um, sometimes they don't match what reality actually is. Right. We're going to do this and everything's going to change. Um, where do you see the biggest disconnect today between uh, the promise of instant payments or what's going on in the market and what's Actually being used.

Speaker C: I don't know what the biggest disconnect is if I'm being totally honest, because I'm like, how are consumers thinking about. I'm thinking more of consumers than the businesses. Um, but, like, how do they think about it? And I think they think about it just like how you said, like, I have a bill I need to pay right now, so I need to do it. And so they would. They would see, like, oh, I can't do this right now. So that's, uh, a. So that's a problem. Right. Or m, maybe they don't want to pay whatever fee might be attached to it. So that could be a problem. So I think the disconnect would primarily show up when someone is having a problem and then the solution isn't the solution that would help them. Um, is what I think it's because

Speaker B: a lot of the solutions from third parties are. They're very specialized.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: They're solving a specific, uh, business problem or payment problem. But it may not help a consumer or vice versa, may not help a business because it's a earned wage access solution. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker C: Well, I think one of the craziest storylines when I learned about bill pay and how, like, some of the providers are writing physical checks on the back end. I think that's the classic example of disconnect between, like, you know, I'm not calling that hype. It's not hype because it's like, just something people want to do. But like, if, like, someone knew, like, oh, that's what's going on the backside and it's costing them good money to make it. So I think that's like the first thing that jumps in my mind of like, oh, this isn't. There's a mismatch here.

Speaker B: It is very. So I am. I'm a treasurer of a youth hockey club and we have an online banking platform that I use and probably three quarters of my payments that go out, I would love for them to go by ACH or whatever electronic means are available. And I do use Zelle now. They hooked up to Zelle. Um, but most of them, like the other party, does not have electronic capability. So I would put it into the system and a check goes out. Oh, gosh, it arrives here a week later.

Speaker C: Does that get annoying for you, like, to manage every. Because that. I guess that is something I find annoying sometimes. Like, oh, this person doesn't have this, so now I need to use that. And like, so that, like the juggling act of, like, what apps you need on your phone kind of thing.

Speaker B: It is, I mean it's all through the banking app. So it says okay, well we didn't find this other entity in the system so. Or they're not on Zelle, so you can. Well, we'll send a check. And so the bank is actually sending the check for me, you know, and which is great because I don't have to order checks and I don't have to pay postage.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it goes out like usually like a week later. They'll get it.

Speaker C: I don't know why this is coming to me right now, but I'm curious how pervasive are Oopsie payments? Is there any number on that?

Speaker B: I'm sure there is, but I do not know it.

Speaker C: We will find it later. Because I like, you know, I'm always looking at myself even like I recently and it was someone in the fintech world. I was scrolling through my, my TikTok and I accidentally, my thumb hit the bottom of it and I shared a TikTok, um, with a fintech person but it was like about like hair and I'm like this is weird. This is weird that I accidentally did that. So like I'm like okay, so that's with a TikTok. But certainly that happens in sending payments.

Speaker B: I mean, yeah, I'm sure consumers, businesses make mistakes with payments. And you sometimes you do hear about the big corporations make a six figure, seven figure error kind of news or eight figure. Whoa, that's pretty cool.

Speaker C: Let it never be me.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Um, and they have to wind it out and get it back or unwind and get it back. Um, which is interesting though with instant payments it's RTP and Fed now those are, they're final like if they go

Speaker C: through, if it's irrevocable. Irrevocable, big word.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And there, I mean if you're, if I send you $100,000 by accident, you'd probably.

Speaker C: That sounds okay, I may never see you again.

Speaker B: Right. But, but uh, if there's a way like I would contact you, like I send mistake, your bank would say okay, it's a mistake and they would give it back. There uh, are, there are procedures to do it but work when it comes to um, uh, scams and things like that. That's where banks are being very careful with how they're allowing businesses and consumers to send instant payments because they want to avoid the scams and the fraudsters or out there are trying to you know, impersonate partners or other people, uh,

Speaker C: play to Time sensitivity and what they

Speaker B: see in, what they see on other payment rails. Right.

Speaker C: Yeah. I've been hearing a big scam is like the crypto ATMs and like going after people's parents to like go use this crypto ATM and then they lose all their money in that.

Speaker B: So that's crazy.

Speaker C: It's just really awful.

Speaker B: That's crazy. Um, let's move on because we can, we can go down, I can rewrite

Speaker C: you all kinds of locations.

Speaker B: Um, I think a while ago this been back to your bank rate days, you were talking about the identity crisis in banking.

Speaker C: Yeah, I like to talk about the identity crisis in banking because it, uh, feels relatable.

Speaker B: How does that show up in payments? And if so, how?

Speaker C: Well, I think it does as an extension or like, you know, it always goes back to like, excuse me, am I dumb pipes? Right. Isn't that the thing? So like that happens in payments. That obviously is happening banking. And it's like, do you want your brand to be known or are you okay being like sort of the hidden brand making, making it so. So I think these are all like the existential questions that had been invading banking, financial services and as extension payments as well, because as it becomes more invisible, like what, uh, what does that mean? How do you build, how do, how does brand building change?

Speaker B: That's true, that's true. I mean there are a lot of different payments capabilities that don't have a brand.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. So the identity crisis. Yeah. In payments there are all of these different functionalities that banks and credit unions are offering, but there's no brand on them. It's just different ways to pay. And maybe they don't need a, um, you don't need to brand it as something.

Speaker C: Yeah. Not everything can be a brand. Not everything needs to be a brand. Um, but like for the creators of these things who want it to be a brand, I would say that's a profound existential question. Right, right, right.

Speaker B: You're building, you're launching a new company. It's a lot of the companies here at Fintech Meetup, they're launching these new solutions or solutions that will help financial, uh, services companies do different things and they want to put a brand on it. But oftentimes the FI doesn't want a brand. They're like, oh, I like that functionality. Don't need. We don't need to call it this cool thing. We just need to call it a faster payment or a different option and they just throw it in. So I don't know.

Speaker C: Yeah, because you don't want to go either way. Yeah, it could go either way.

Speaker B: Um, and this is a great, you know, this thing about branding, um, and the different functionalities that are being offered now by all sorts of uh, fintechs that are out there. You know, it's um, it's these functionality and these tools that are in the background, right? Embedded finance, invisible checkout and all these payment tools that are out there. Um, where do you see the industry going with that are there? And I guess more importantly, are they at risk of losing their identity by being embedded into third party sites? Whereas maybe it is you're bank taking care of the whole process but you don't know that. You're just like, I got this job done easily.

Speaker C: I think the institution has to decide. I think the brand name might not matter as much. Like you don't need to. It depends where you're going for, right. And what bet you're placing. Um, it's if you're trying to grow and the way to grow is to sort of be on the back burner if you will, because you're in somebody else's experience, that's worth it because you're getting customers, right? And you're growing, you're, you're growing. So like that works. Um, if your proposition is like, oh, I am really wanting um, people to recognize, you know, my branch even like that is not, it's not going to be like a great thing. Right. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's, I mean really, you're right. It depends on, it depends on your.

Speaker C: Yeah, it depends on your goals. Um, but I think I've been hearing like sponsor banks are um, coming back after taking quite a black eye. So that shows me that there's a um, appetite to be hidden player kind of thing.

Speaker B: Sorry, uh, sponsor. Oh, okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. Mhm.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, because that one that took. There's been some consent orders, some notable consent orders that I would think would scare the industry. But uh, it looks like there's more players getting into the space.

Speaker B: It's a different, different world now. That's for sure. That's for sure. Um, I know you're a storyteller, right? Um, that's what you, your career has been built on and you, you put a lot of things that are kind of wonky sometimes and techie fintechy, uh, into relatable stories for, for people. What do financial institutions need to do, especially around things like um, new functionality or fraud, um, to help their customers avoid fraud without getting them, you know, totally freaked out About I'm never picking up my phone again.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, you know, I've been seeing like, you see this more from the fintech side, but it's like the app, you can like click parts of the app to show like, oh, is the bank really calling me? Is this like, is this a true call coming from, from the bank? So that's, that's not like a common thing, but I think that's like an interesting thing.

Speaker B: What is that?

Speaker C: It's whatever technology is being used. It's helping them know if they're being like spoofed here, like if, if this is the bank, um, or not the bank. So I've seen this more happen in the uk, um, than the us so I think.

Speaker B: So how does that work? So if the, the bank is calling

Speaker C: you, if then someone not from the bank is calling, fact check that through the bank app, um, which I think is really interesting. But like, in terms of general education, doesn't work. The tab on, um, you know, like, these are your fraud. No, that doesn't work. But nobody reads it, Nobody reads it, nobody reads it until there's a problem. Then it's like, oh, we're. This is like, this is what I needed before.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. Now that I'm reading it, that's what happened to me. Oops.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's not, that's not a good thing. But, um, and this is kind of unusual example. Well, Charlie is a neobank for the older adults, but they did sunset. But the founder went on TikTok, um, and again his audience is like over 62. But he went on TikTok to share, um, scams that he was seeing, like, happening and he was getting a lot of views on it. So I think there is, you know, everyone thinks fraud. Well, the industry is like, this is really important, this matters so much. But like everyday humans are not thinking about this message. Although maybe that pendulum's swinging a bit because of how chaotic the world is right now. But, but I do think like there's opportunity to, to just create sound bites that are more interesting about fraud. Um, that could be useful to, to consumers, um, to members, to customers. Um, but it can't just be like the Listicle article. It needs to be like a bit more engaging or like newsy. Like this is the fraud thing of the day kind of thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And with all customers, it's getting that information to them in the way that they can, that they want to digest it and it's, you know, you're talking about, you know, TikToks for, you know, the over 62 crowd. Yeah, well, they're probably really cool TikToks, but nobody in his demographic was watching it.

Speaker C: But maybe the kids were.

Speaker B: The kids were. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: Hey, mom and dad, check this out.

Speaker B: Yeah, you can't do this. Don't do what? This app right here. Yeah, so, yeah, that's interesting. Um, I want to wrap up on kind of a forward looking question.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, you know, payment trends, things that you're seeing, things you're hearing. What's underappreciated right now. What do you think is going to change? Um, the way banks, credit unions are dealing with their customers. Or maybe you can take it the other direction. What is overhyped at this point?

Speaker C: Maybe I'll take it both directions. But the first thing I wanted to say is about the frickin penny. Because I'm obsessed with the penny. It actually caused like some commotion here. And I don't mean about the penny ending. I mean, like, um, there was a. Like, I blogged about this for Gans, who Panker. Um, but like, wasn't there wasn't a plan to like, how, how do, how do we handle it when there's like, do we round up, do we round down? Um, you know, how does the bank give the business customers, like, exact change? And it was just, it was like a lot of unnecessary hurdles. So I think that story was underappreciated. And now that we see more attention on checks and, you know, eliminating more checks, I think it could be the same problem. Clearly these things are going away and like, for good reason. But without like a, a bit of a forward, uh, looking, like, how does, how does it work in the awkward. Yeah, like this awkward middle. I always call it the awkward teenage years. Like, there's something needs to happen. You can't just say, boom, you're, you're gone without there being ramifications. So I think it was underappreciated that depending the penny need have a plan. And I know what that sounds like in a world of like, again, to go back to the front of the conversation about stablecoin, et cetera. So that's like, you know, cutting edge. I'm talking about the penny. But like, things that have been around forever still cause problems.

Speaker B: That's true, but. Uh-huh. Other countries have gotten rid of their pennies, right? Yes.

Speaker C: Canada was apparently a better example of how to do it right.

Speaker B: Okay. So I guess businesses just have to plan ahead and be like, okay, if there's a tax attached to this, I just have to realize I have to price my product.

Speaker C: Yeah. When you see like paper signs at the retailers, like, oh, you know, penny pennies. This happened during the pandemic with the coins because they just weren't circulating. There's always a lot of coins, but like, it's just like that circulating girl

Speaker B: sitting in a big jug in somebody's room. Yeah.

Speaker C: I heard this one wild story where someone raided a fountain to like collect the coins in it. I mean, you know, stunt or whatever. I like it. It's beautiful. It could be in a movie.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is that going to be your next project, making a movie about pennies?

Speaker C: I would do it. Don't tempt me with a good time. Yes. For all you come fund my penny movie.

Speaker B: That's right. So, okay, so, um. So that. Was there another one.

Speaker C: Underappreciated.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Over.

Speaker A: Over.

Speaker C: Hyped. I still think we're over. I think. I'm not saying we're overhyping stablecoins. I don't think. But I think there's always the risk of like the newest thing gets so much attention and I just.

Speaker B: Shiny object.

Speaker C: Yeah, Shiny object problem. There's always. It's always. It's over. It always seems overhyped in the end, looking back at least.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think for stablecoins, obviously there's. There's a role for them. I think in a lot of ways they're still looking for, um, the use case. Right. There are, um, things like instant payments domestically in the US that solve for some of the things that stablecoins can do. Right. 24 by 7 instant payments. Well, we have that. Uh, and you have it in a fiat currency so you don't have to worry about moving it from stablecoin digital assets to something else. So I don't know.

Speaker C: We'll see. Because you're hearing rhetoric of like stablecoins are better than instant payments. Yeah.

Speaker B: So in certain cases right now, if you're looking cross border 100%. I think that's right. That may be changing. You'll be hearing some stuff from.

Speaker C: You don't see his face, but it's almost a wink.

Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. So there will be more to hear about that soon, I'm sure. Elena, our chief client officer spoke yesterday, kind of teased that a little bit in her session. About one leg out.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so we'll see how that goes

Speaker C: over the next two months.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I want to close. Um. This has been a great conversation. Lots of fun.

Speaker C: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: One question we always ask Our guests here on payments Nerds, uh, because we're payments nerds at heart, is what makes you a payments nerd. So I'm going to ask you what makes you a payments nerd.

Speaker C: I think I revealed it when I re quoted the joke about the ach bar. I think that just shows my cards. Right?

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: Or.

Speaker B: Or your car. You're still talking about the penny, so.

Speaker C: Yeah. And like, even I shut down. Bankers don't want to hear about that. Just like, God, this is so exciting.

Speaker B: That's great. That's fun. Is there anything else we missed? Anything else that you're working on that.

Speaker C: Well, uh, yeah, just doing my podcast, dropping it every month on Money Isn't Everything. Early stage fintech ideas for that. Um, and we'll be having some research out that showcases some of the voices of Cornerstone leadership on some of the things that we think are the boldest bets. Um, in bid came for the year.

Speaker B: Interesting. Mhm. That's pretty cool. Well, uh, everybody, um, thanks for listening today. Um, Mary's podcast is Money Isn't Everything, so be sure to tune into that one as well. That's a good listen. Uh, and so on behalf of Mary Wisniewski from Cornerstone Advisors, I'd like to thank the audience for tuning into today's podcast. And if you enjoyed today's episode and you want to hear more about payments or more about what you're doing in your podcast, you can find them on, uh, Spotify, Apple, uh, um, probably share a couple other platforms as well. And you can find payments nerds as well on the clearinghouse.org homepage. Simply search for payments nerds in your podcasting app. Thank you. And that's all from this episode. Uh, from Fintech Meetup. Have a great day.