Dynamic Duos: Penn and Kim Holderness

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the final episode of season six of Own it from Women Lead Change. This season is all about dynamic duo, showcasing how these powerful partnerships shape leadership, growth, growth and impact, improving that we all lead better when we work together. Tiffany o' Donnell talks to Penn and Kim Holderness on today's episode. Pin and Kim talk about their time on the Amazing Race, how their relationship has grown together as they have grown as individuals, and the importance of showing their authentic lives on social media.

Speaker A: You guys, it's such a great story. It is just. I just have to ask, did you ever imagine with that very first Christmas card video what would happen?

Speaker C: No, uh, absolutely not. I. We really did put out that video, Christmas Jammies, in hopes of being hired by other companies. Like, we wanted other companies to hire us. Like, we would be behind. He's a brilliant videographer and editor. I would do all the marketing, social media stuff. Like, we really thought that was the plan, or at least for me, that's.

Speaker D: Yeah, uh, it was impossible to imagine because the space that we ended up working in didn't really exist yet, too. Like, you have. This is going back 12 years. Um, when. When we put that out there, um, YouTube was just becoming a place where people were expressing themselves artistically. For years. Before that, it was mostly just a library of home videos. But, um, you know, at about that time, Facebook and YouTube started really rewarding, um, that kind of, like, elevated home video. And so it was, um, it was the dawn of kind of a new age that we were very lucky enough to just kind of be part of the, I don't know, the jet stream of current that happened there. Um, and really, at the beginning, we were just doing it because we couldn't get our kids to sit still for a photograph. So we thought, okay, if we make it a moving video, maybe that, you know, they'll enjoy it a little more.

Speaker C: A talking picture.

Speaker D: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: And it worked.

Speaker C: It worked. And it's.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker C: It's. I. I really do think that we worked very hard. We had all these skills that we learned. We worked in local news, so we knew how to edit, we knew how to, you know, create content very quickly, all of these things. But at the end of the day, we were very lucky and that we put a video out at that particular time. It was so the week we put out Christmas Jammies, I think it has, like, 16 or 17 million views on YouTube, which, for, like, Mr. Beast is nothing. That's, like, at one hour on a Tuesday. But I think what Christmas Jammies had was it was a slow news week. Like, remember those? So it was on every morning news show. It was on all the late night shows. SNL parried it, parodied it. Um, so it became bigger than the Internet. And so. Because I think there was nothing else to talk about that week. So I don't think you could do that again because there's so much actual news to talk about now. But, uh, yeah, but in that week, that one week in December, I think we just got really lucky that we were able to capture that much attention.

Speaker A: Well, you're being extremely modest, because I think. I mean, that was a long time ago. And yet here you sit, you know. Here you sit. And I think, you know, I think the brilliance, too, and I'm sure our listeners, is why they know you. You're so stinking relatable. Like, you're able to tap into kind of like the Seinfeld about nothing. You guys tap into, like, stuff that we don't even consciously know we deal with, but we deal with it every day. And we're like, oh, my God, like, that's. That's me.

Speaker C: You know, I think that it is really a, uh, fun life to be able to go on a walk, look around at our lives, and just ask the question, is that funny? Because so much of real life is very funny. So in that way, I feel like, oh, uh, we could never be, like, real comedians because we really only make fun of ourselves. Like, I don't know what it would be like to write for SNL where you would have to, like, create characters and stuff. Like, we are the characters. Like, we're heightened versions of ourselves, but we're the characters.

Speaker D: Yeah. We got no business working for anybody else.

Speaker C: Like, I don't know if we could write comedy for other people, but, uh, just our life is, I think, very funny.

Speaker A: It's pretty great. So, Pen, when did you know. Was there a moment when, you know, you knew that, like, holy smokes, like, people are watching this stuff

Speaker C: Probably.

Speaker D: I mean, yes, in waves, right? Like, we definitely were aware of it when we put out that first video, because we were getting a lot of, you know, phone calls from people all over the world that we hadn't spoken to or heard from in years. And our email, uh, inbox exploded because we put that on the video and we put our address on the video, which we're just not dumb. Dumb. And people were coming by our house. So, like, that was like, okay, this is happening. Um, I think that, like, after that, like, built and subsided and built and subsided based on Kind of what we were doing. And then I think the next real, um, the real time, Next real time that we realized, okay, this, we're becoming part of people's everyday life was probably during COVID um, there was a period of several months where all of Hollywood shut down, all of New York City shut down. There was no live content, no entertainment, and the only things that were going out were people who were essentially putting it out from their own homes, including late night shows, live news broadcasts. And we kind of made a pact that we're going to put something out every day. We've got nothing else to do. Um, and we tripled or quadrupled our audience during that time. I think people felt, like, comforted, comforted by the fact that we were going through the same stuff that they were. And we tried to make it funny and fun. Um, um. And so that was when I think it kind of went from, like, making corny videos to, okay, I think that we're able to, like, make people laugh and also potentially, like, brighten their day a little bit.

Speaker C: No, I agree. And by the way, we have help. I always want to say, and I mean, Sam, who's sitting behind the camera right now, and Ann Marie. So, like, during COVID so we hired Sam. I think a big transition in our business was it was Penn and I alone for a long time, and I don't think our marriage was going to survive, quite honestly. So, so we, we needed to hire people because I, I, everybody asks, like, what's it like to work with your husband? Because we have people with us now that are the tiebreakers or they help drive creative decisions. Like, that has. That has kept us this, that's kept us in it. But we, um, hired Sam, who's sitting behind the camera and. February of 2020. Yeah, February. Yeah, it was February 2020. And. Wow. Well, we were about to leave for the Amazing Race, so we went on the Amazing Race and we were about to leave. So we hired her, saying, okay, here are some projects you can do while we're gone for this month. But she was supposed to be, like, in our house, which is where we work. She was going to be like, I don't even know what the original job description was going to be. Like, I kind of forget what we even hired her to do originally. But then immediately we came back from Amazing Race, it was Covid, and I was like, well, now we're going to send you videos and you're going to edit videos and do graphics and do all this. And they just like, she did yeah. And our team, like, we just. We were able to kind of shoot stuff. We were able to send it off into the, you know, outer space, and they were able to get it, edit it, post it. Like, we were able to do a new video every day because we had help. Uh, we had help doing that. And I think if we didn't, there's no way we would have had the endurance to do that. So I will say two things I think changed. Like, when I knew we were gonna, you know, when things had changed and, like, kind of shift gears was like when we were able to hire people and then during COVID kind of put

Speaker A: that to the test and made a

Speaker C: real business and made it. It made it a real business because. Not that it wasn't before, but I mean, we. I was a journalism major, he was a philosophy major. We worked in newsrooms. We did not and maybe still don't know a ton about growing a business. And, um, we. I think we have good instincts when it comes to our content, and we've made some good decisions. Um, but I think we still have so much to learn. But when we brought on people who are smarter than us, like, that is what. And it's a risk. Right? Like, we have to now, like, people's mortgage depends on us paying them. So it was a huge risk that we were slow to take, but it really. It had. I think that was one of the biggest impacts on our. On why we're still here.

Speaker A: Very cool. And you. You just talked about the Amazing Race very casually. Oh, yeah, we were on. We were on the Amazing Race.

Speaker C: Yeah. Because people do that. Because people do that. It's a Tuesday. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker A: People. So don't do that. And I was going to ask you what it's like to work together, running a business together, but at the same time, I might ask what was it like to be a team on the Amazing Race and like a victorious team on the Amazing Race because they're one sort of prepared you for the other, I have to think, and maybe even vice versa. Now, afterwards, I don't know what was.

Speaker C: You're very right. You're very right.

Speaker D: So we, um. Kim was a super fan and, uh, and Kim is a type A preparation type personality. So we went into it like something that we were, like, we not expected to win, but we went in there to win.

Speaker C: Um, and we went in there like it was a job.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like, this is a job to get a million dollars.

Speaker D: She. So she got me into the show. She helped explain all of the rules and then inside of that, like, a lot of the meta inside of that, because there's podcasts and blogs and, like, super fans, and she's one of them that you can kind of. You can understand what's going on and get a leg up in this race by knowing about that. So that was sort of her. But it made her feel good to prepare like that. I'm not, like a hyper preparer, but I watched and learned all that stuff. Um, the other. Like, we did two other huge pieces of preparation. We got in the best shape we could possibly get in because we knew that we were among the oldest couples who go on the race.

Speaker C: Um.

Speaker D: Um, and then we, uh, we went to marriage counseling, um, which is for

Speaker C: the Amazing Race, just for.

Speaker D: Right, right. That was something that. But it just happened to be right around that time we were going, like, with. It was actually our pastor at our church, and it was super helpful. Um, we didn't have a bad marriage. We had a good marriage, but we wanted a great one. And there were all these tips to, uh, communicating that that came up literally every hour, maybe every minute that we were on that show. Because the Amazing Race is. It looks like a race. It's really a relationship show. And they build in all of these pressure points to try to test relationships.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker D: And for that reason, anytime anybody gets in the tiniest little fight, they bring all seven cameras who are on the race right in your face. They put in these, like, sound effects, like, bam, bam, bam.

Speaker C: M tv. Right when they're fighting. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: And they. They blow. Uh, we saw it personally. They blow it out of proportion. There were some relationships that got strained that were accurate, and there were some that they'd blown out of proportion.

Speaker C: I don't think they blow it out of proportions. That's where I. That's where you and I differ.

Speaker D: The people who get in arguments will tell you that they feel that it's blown out of proportion. Um, we. We never got into an argument. We're getting into one now, which is a lot of fun.

Speaker A: Um, and we are here for that. Right?

Speaker C: I mean, it's a TV show that

Speaker A: is based on music.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. It's a relationship show. But if you don't give, like, if you fight and you bicker, they're going to use it. So that's not out. That's reality.

Speaker D: True.

Speaker C: M. So I think if you give it to them. So I think that's where we went in as partners, knowing we would rather stay married than win a game show. And so we learned just we were going to be each other's biggest fans and we had to ask this question. And again, we talked about this in counseling. Like, how do you want me to talk to you? Like, how should we communicate when things are tough? Because it's really easy to communicate when things are great.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And when things are great in your life, super easy peasy. Um, but when things are going sideways, how do we talk to each other?

Speaker D: And sometimes it's surprising. Right. Like, so Kim told me when we were prepping, don't say you got this, because that in my head sounds like you're failing.

Speaker C: Well, I mean, so, uh, why would you, uh, when you say you got this, this means that I don't got.

Speaker D: Some people like to hear that.

Speaker C: I know did not.

Speaker D: Like, that's, I guess that's a specific thing.

Speaker C: But like, I hear when you say you got this, it's because I don't got this and so I don't want to hear it. So if I'm struggling, it's just like, you're doing, you, like, not even. You're doing great. Like, I'm here, Take your time. You're amazing. Like, right?

Speaker D: Yeah, but that's easy. Like, I, I don't mean harm when I'm saying that. I had no idea that's what she's hearing, but it's that kind of like hyper over communicating that you do in preparation. And that meta communication about like how you communicate, that was, it made a huge difference.

Speaker A: Wow. And Kim, I'm so with you. Like, if somebody ever says that to me, I know that they see me with one foot over the cliff and they're like, you're not going to like, let the other one go? Even though I want to let the

Speaker C: other one go, I want to, I want to actually jump off with both feet.

Speaker A: And you see that I want.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker A: See, once again, it's just the everyday brilliance. Um, you know, here's what's also, I think a great story about you because you're super honest about all kinds of stuff. I mean, there are some people online where everything's, you know, wine and roses all the time. Um, you guys are super real and just what you talked about, I mean, always learning about each other and better ways to be together. Um, I feel like whether that's a marriage or a workplace or any, any type of long term relationship, I think you're interesting to hear, interested to hear what you think about this too. But you've got to be like, open to allowing the person to grow and change and evolve. And like, not get in the way, but rather be like, hey, I want to go along with you. I might not be like, I'm not, maybe not doing the same thing, but I'm going to be here and like, be really interested in you doing that. How important has that been for you guys to, to grow together after all this time?

Speaker C: Another thing we learned in counseling, like, our primary jobs are to be like the witnesses to each other's story and to be the hype for each other's story. To like, go alongside and just be the biggest cheerleader, not, not intervene or direct. Um, and it is. I have loved to see Penn has. He is the best. He is so good at learning things and he is so good at changing his mind, like, have. Being open to have his mind changed. And he's just so open. So I've learned about that and something he said the other day because I, I pulled him to my dance class recently, I'm like, you're gonna come to my dance class? And he's like, great. And he said, you know what? I really want to put myself in spaces where people, uh, look and think differently than I do. I really think I need to challenge myself like that. And I was like, that's amazing. Like, this is like a new version of my husband. Not that he was ever trying to avoid those spaces before. He's like, no, I need to make a better effort to hang out with. He plays tennis with a bunch of 50 year old white men. He's a white man. He's like, no, I need to do a better job of hanging out with people who are different than me. I was like, that's amazing.

Speaker D: Yeah, well, those are very nice, kind words. Um, it did take me a while to grow out of the first thing she talked about, and I'll tell you why. Uh, you know, the part about. It's my, my most important job is to be witness to her story and to be her hype person. Right. That is, it got hammered into my head from the time I was a very young man that it is my job to be Prince Charming and rescue people who are in need. Like, that's the, that's the epitome of being romantic. That's how everybody falls in love in every Disney story. Right? And so I've got to do whatever I can to put myself in that position. Um, not realizing until much later on in life, and I'm sure this realization takes longer for most men, that, that that's not a real true connection. That's, um, that's that's someone stepping in and keeping them from being able to figure it out themselves. Uh, uh.

Speaker C: And.

Speaker D: And so as soon as I learned that, and it took a little bit of humility and rewiring, like, I noticed a change in our relationship. Like, I noticed that we got closer.

Speaker A: Wow, that's so true.

Speaker C: Yeah. Like, our daughter does not want to be saved.

Speaker D: And so there are times, though. So. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker C: No, no.

Speaker D: Well.

Speaker C: Oh, those are times I want to be saved.

Speaker D: You say, uh, you actually say.

Speaker C: I'm like, the feminism is leaving my body. I would like you to carry my luggage. I would like you to take out the trash. I would like you to save me right now. I would like you to do this for me.

Speaker D: That's our code for it. Like, the feminism is leaving my body. I need you to.

Speaker C: I need.

Speaker D: Charming.

Speaker C: Charming. Please carry my bags. Um, but I witnessed this. My daughter, too. Like, she does not want to be saved. And Pen and I both have an issue where we. We love her. You know, we have two kids, and she's our oldest, and we love her so much. We want to make her life, like, we want to do the thing where you, like, make the person you love's life easier. So she's on her, like, first, she's going to work at a restaurant. So first day in the job today, and her shoes weren't fitting, so I was like, oh, let me give you these, like, heel insert things that I put. She's like, no, I'm fine. And I'm like, okay, good.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker C: These are your feet. Yep.

Speaker A: You're good.

Speaker C: And it's like, I have to realize that, like, no, she just wanted to say that her shoes didn't fit, and that, like, a very basic solution was one that she was just not open to hearing.

Speaker A: So it's like, okay.

Speaker C: Right. Have a good day. Yeah.

Speaker D: That's for your next podcast on, um, like, living with a college kid when they come back from college.

Speaker A: Oh, I can't wait.

Speaker D: Which is wonderful. Which is so great. So great having her here.

Speaker C: She's doing great.

Speaker A: Oh, of course you love. Of course you love having her home. It's. I always say it's just sort of nature's way, though, of you being okay when they leave again. Because if. If you're like me, you know, I thought, oh, my gosh, you know, the last one's leaving. It's empty nest. It's this chapter, how am m I going to do it? And then I figured out how to do it, and then they come home, and it's so great. And. And then it's like, okay, so, you know, we're. We're, uh, we're grown ups and we live our own lives. And I think it's probably time that go back to that because it was super fun and.

Speaker C: And, uh. Yeah, I know. I know where I think that we're going. I'm going to. When my son leaves, I'm going to like, fall into deep despair for a little bit. But then I think I will. We will really enjoy. I think we will really enjoy empty nesting. Um, I can't wait for those videos.

Speaker A: I really can't. Because that is like a gold mine, you guys. As empty nesters. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker D: I mean, just going back and forth between vacationing in Alaska and crying in the middle of the afternoon. That's. Yeah, perfect.

Speaker A: And how about every week is spring break. Like, you can go with crying in

Speaker D: the afternoon because we miss our kids.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I. But I have to, like, I. I'm with you. I. I really feel like even just around. We live in North Carolina. Even just like going to those places in our own state, like all this place. Apparently there's like a lot of cool waterfalls in North Carolina that I've ever seen. And just being able to be like, you know, we should do. It's a Tuesday. I mean, not that we're retired. Like, we aren't retired, but like, we could go. We don't have a basketball tournament to go to. We could go see these waterfalls that are a legend in our state and we'll.

Speaker D: We'll balance that. Like, hey, we need to hike up to this waterfall with. Hey, babe. There's some television we haven't watched in these last few years on our. On our couch.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. You all are, uh, you're going to have an absolute, an absolute blast. I can't wait for that. And not only that too, but like you said, the basketball tournament. Suddenly it's like you don't have a spring concert to go to or. Uh, yeah, I mean. And of course, of course you wouldn't trade any of that. It's like the best. It's the best. And you did it.

Speaker D: No. So this was our first May sember with, uh, a kid with a driver's license and another kid in college. It was in college. It was piece of cake. It's crazy.

Speaker C: We didn't. Yeah. And normally May is like this really crazy time of year for parents. And it like, wasn't crazy. And somebody gave me the best advice when we had our daughter, which was if you show up in every, like, really show up. Ah. And not, like, to every game, but just like, you're very intentional. Um, and you show up for your kid in every single stage, you're ready for the next one and you're not really, like, you can't be sad for the one that's over because you get this new version of this new person. And I found that to be so true that, um, you know, people like, oh, don't you miss going from, like, band recital to dance recital? This. I'm like, no, because I did it and I took all the pictures and I have so many videos and I did it and I remember getting home and like, oh, crap, we didn't make anything to eat. And now we have to order pizza and it's nine o' clock at night. And so it's like, I've already done that. And so. And I did it well. And now it's time to sit on the couch.

Speaker A: Yes. And don't. Don't stop the pizza. Or my personal dinner favorite cereal. Uh, we can do that now. We can do that now. We just have cereal. And you know what? You have your own cereal.

Speaker C: And I'm going to have my own

Speaker A: cereal and I'm going to use almond milk.

Speaker C: Um, I am. So I. When our kids leave, I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know that I'm going to cook much.

Speaker D: So the last time, like, the first time we realized our kid had his license and, like, drove away and there was the two of us sitting around, we were like, what. What are we going to.

Speaker C: What are we.

Speaker D: So we, like, we played chess and ate cheese and crack and neither of us know how to play chess. And we didn't cook a nutritious.

Speaker C: No, we did not. We had cheese and wine and, like, some pepperoni slices. And that was. I know. I'm like, and we can do this. We didn't have a vegetable. There was no vegetable.

Speaker A: It's so great. So great. I can't. I am so happy for you. I cannot wait for those videos. I do want to. I do want to touch a little bit. We talked a little, little bit about this stuff. But when we. You guys don't shy away from real life and the challenges, the good, the bad, um, anxiety. You've talked about burnout, you've talked about your book. ADHD is awesome. All you can be with adhd, get it done and have fun. That title is. Yeah, I think anybody who lives with that really resonates um, you know, is that hard for you or is that just very intuitive for you to just tell it like it is?

Speaker D: Uh, I don't know that I'd be able to do it any other way. Um, it's at least not sustainably. Um, like, if we're going to spend 12 years on the Internet talking about our lives, um, people are gonna originally, you know, they're gonna figure out where the BS is unless we keep it real. I think that's probably right.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that in a very

Speaker D: way more refreshing too.

Speaker C: Yeah. In a very weird way, it helps me process things by creating something. So I think even if we didn't have these pages on the Internet, I think a version of me would being, being, try to create something out of it. You know, I, I, it for my version of anxiety. Like, that is what helps me, like just creating something out of nothing. Um, so that is why I, I, it's just helped me process to be able to talk openly about it. And what it's happened is it's created a really amazing community of people that if either they can sympathize with it or they've walked it themselves. And I have to say, the comment section is a joy because people offer encouragement, they offer feedback, they offer new ideas. New ideas. And it's really, I think, has created like a really cool, authentic connection I, that I feel with the community, um, which is, you know, the Internet can be a very hard place, so to have like a very safe space in the Internet, which I hope we've created, um, it feels good.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. And it's connection. I mean, that's, you think about, that's how we make connections with people. I just, yeah, kudos to you.

Speaker C: I just, I'm no good at like, if, if we met in person. I am really no good at small talk. I hate a cocktail party. But if you want to sit there and trauma dump with me about, like, something, I, I am in, I am your girl. And to the point where it's like I, I get awkward because I will, I will say something that is way too much information for a person I just met. And they would be like, okay, you know, we're in the south, so sometimes people are there for it and sometimes people are clutching their pearls. So, um, I just would rather hear about who you really are and things you've struggled with and things that you're excited about than to sit there and chat about, like, the next vacation you're taking. Although interested, I'm interested in your next vacation. But, like, yeah, I just would rather know the real person, I think.

Speaker A: Kim, I think that's. I mean, I don't know you. I feel like I've known you forever. I think everybody feels that way. You make people feel that way. I, um, think that's the journalist in you, too. I think reporters have, um, a unique sense of. That Everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And like, we're with people. I say we because I did it

Speaker C: for a while too.

Speaker A: But, like, you're with people on their worst day. You're with people on their best day. You realize that everyone's just trying. Everyone's just, like, trying to do their thing, and everybody has their stuff and. And you. You like stories.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, you're kind of mining the stories. You want to know.

Speaker C: I just want to know about, uh, you. And I could tell you were. Used to be a journalist. You asked really good. You're a very curious person. You can tell.

Speaker D: So I'm. And I'm curious, too. I'm sorry. Because I've gone 51 years without knowing what this means. When you say you put on your pants one leg at a time, does that mean that you're, like, very methodical about things or, like. Because when I like to lay on a bed and put both of my pant legs on at the same time, so what does that say about me?

Speaker A: Uh, uh, maybe. I don't know. Okay. I, uh, feel a video coming on because I don't know.

Speaker D: I've used that term not knowing what it means, what.

Speaker C: How I interpret it is. We all do the same thing.

Speaker A: I got it.

Speaker D: Okay. So the fact that I don't put my pants on.

Speaker C: We all. Except for Pen.

Speaker D: I got. That's why I'm confused.

Speaker C: Do the same thing. I like you do.

Speaker D: You sit down like ladybug. Upside down. Like a turtle upside down. Like on my butt. Because I don't. It hurts my back when I try to do it.

Speaker C: It's very tall. And, you know, I just realized you sit down to put your pants.

Speaker D: Yeah, because I put them on two legs at a time. That's why. I don't understand.

Speaker A: That's so interesting. I just mean it's like the unsexy stuff. Like, we all do the unsexy stuff. We all do, like, the. You know what I mean? We're all so the same. Like, more the same. We are.

Speaker D: And this is not a sexy looking thing that happens.

Speaker C: We are all the same. Except for Pat.

Speaker A: You lost me at the ladybug thing. That, that is a visual person.

Speaker D: A turtle. Like, whatever. Yeah. Like just.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: Turtle is a better example.

Speaker C: Yeah, maybe.

Speaker A: Oh, you people are so funny. I can't wait to see you in person. And I know we are. I know our whole, um, community is going to get to see you. I do have one official question I have to ask because it's called the Own it podcast. I need to ask each of you what you believe the other's superpower is. So, Kim, what would you say is Penn superpower?

Speaker C: He has so many. Oh, man. Okay, I'm gonna do one. I'm gonna do one for, like, work, like public facing work. And then I'm gonna do one like, uh, private, uh, and work. He can write a song about anything and give him three minutes and he can come up with a song for you and it'll be brilliant and funny and it's, it's like, it's better. Like, it's so funny that now with AI, people are creating things so quickly and like, faster. I'm like, pen is faster than AI and he's better. So he is chatgpt song maker. And, um, it's, it's hard to really, for people to get perspective on that because you see it on the Internet. Um, you're like, oh, that could have taken him a month, but probably took him 30 minutes. So that is a real life superpower. I think privately he is really good at forgiving and getting over things. Like, and I think that we, in a relationship, you are, you are gonna say some things you don't, you're going to do some things you shouldn't. And he's, he just like, we have a conversation and then it's done. And my built in operating system is to hold a grudge, so I can't hold a grudge if he's not. So it's really. I, uh, think if I were, I don't think I could be married to anybody else, but if I was married to somebody else, like, it would be a problem. So he just gets over things so quickly.

Speaker A: What a wonderful thing. That's a great superpower, Pen.

Speaker C: No, I mean, really, you can go through life so much easier if you really, like, truly get over things. Just get over it and. So hard, so hard. It's so hard. And he like, if you truly are sorry and make an apology, he's like, okay, great, we're done again. That's. And that's literally it, um, never going to bring it back up. So that's a superpower yeah.

Speaker A: Great. Good one. Okay, no pressure.

Speaker C: Pen pressure.

Speaker A: Superpower.

Speaker D: I've always said this. Like, there's an actual superhero who has the same power as Kim, um, and her name is Mantis in Guardians of the Galaxy. Um, and she's this, like, she's an empath, and she can, like, basically can just tell what everybody else is feeling just by, like, being close to them and picking up their vibes. Um, she has, like. And this is a great skill as someone who's part of a family, as part of a relationship, as part of a friendship. She. She feels everything coming from the people around her, and it makes her, um, an obviously very caring individual. I'm sure sometimes it. It's. It can be so much that it can, like, cause her to, like, overload. But it is an unbelievable skill that I've never seen in anybody else. Um, and for us, it. It helps. It helps move us forward as a family, um, and as a husband and wife. Um, because you know so much. So much communication is hidden in non verbal, and she can just read it out pretty quickly. It's a good thing I'm not very good at. Or that I don't lie much. I can't lie much. I shouldn't lie much. Um, because she. She can. She's about as close as you can get to a mind reader of anybody out there. And I. It's. I'm telling you, I think it's fantastic. I hope it doesn't overload her too much. Um, and then if. If you want, like, another fun one, She's. She is, um. Uh, she's the best dancer on the planet. Like, she is the best.

Speaker A: We didn't even go into dance class. Like, when you sort of getting casually dropped that. Oh, yeah, Took him to dance class.

Speaker D: What? Yeah, she's really good. She doesn't have to try.

Speaker C: That's not true. I try.

Speaker D: She's like. And. But at anywhere, like at a party, um, at a wedding, wherever it is. And she doesn't need, like, alcohol to start dancing. She'll just start dancing.

Speaker C: My kids saw a video of me at a Christmas party, and I was dancing and they were like.

Speaker D: How drunk were you?

Speaker C: I was sober. I had not a sip.

Speaker D: We drove home.

Speaker C: I was like, I had to drive home. Not a sip. Yeah. So I just look drunk when I dance. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's a good. Do you have a favorite move you're known for?

Speaker C: Um, no. I mean that Pen loves, um, the Running Man. He loves a backspin. He's really good at break dancing. I don't know, do I?

Speaker D: Back, like, back when you were, like, a Division 1 dancer, you had a couple of good kickball, change, turn, kind of break it down.

Speaker C: He likes to make fun of.

Speaker A: I'll just say you did. Just so you did. Because it's a great.

Speaker D: But she's. You guys, she's really good.

Speaker C: Like, and you guys, it's really.

Speaker D: Follow, uh, follow us on Instagram and in our stories. Every time she goes to a dance class, there's a little clip of her dancing.

Speaker C: Every time.

Speaker D: But you should do it every time because it's amazing. Yeah, she's really good.

Speaker A: Okay. Okay. We're inspired. Pen and Kim Holderness, you are just. Yeah. Such a treat. Such a treat. And thank you for taking time out of your busy lives and video production and family, uh, all of that, to just have a chat with us. Really appreciate it and cannot wait to see some of those dance moves in person.

Speaker C: I. I am so excited to meet you in person. And just, like, I think, I mean, I know that's not what we're there to do, but if there's some sort of, like, dance situation, we can. We can, we can. We can make it happen. You can make it happen.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: We just have to have, like, a moment. We have to have, like, a dance moment now. We won't make it weird. We won't make it weird. Just like, just a little bit dance

Speaker A: or we will, which is fine, too.

Speaker D: You know, they're going to make it happen now. Like, that's going to.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: See Pin and Kim at the Leadership Conference 2026 Quad Cities on November 12th. Register at wlcglobal.org ready to grow as a leader, the Elevate Leadership Program helps you build confidence, strengthen your voice, and lead with intention alongside a powerful network of peers. Apply now at wlcglobal. Follow Womenly Change on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Please give us a rating and review on Apple Podcast. We appreciate it so much. More information and tickets can be found@wlcglobal.org.