Pat Burke: Executive Creative Director at Special Group

Speaker A: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Over a Pint. I'm your host, Pat McGovern. Today we have another Pat on the show. We've got Pat Burke. Pat is the executive creative director at Special group out of LA. Pat is a copywriter and creative extraordinaire. He has 18 Super bowl adds to his name. Am I a little intimidated by all this? Yeah, you betcha I am. Um, um, I'm looking forward to this episode just to find out what it's like. How does he handle the pressure? But even bigger, I want to get from a guy who has been in the trenches now for a number of years just where this space is going to. If you take a look at AI, if you read any articles about marketing these days, there's a lot of disruption in this space, and I want to get Pat's view on where things are going. So looking forward to talking with him. Um, if the name Pat Burke sounds a little bit familiar, uh, on episode 181, I had his son on Sambirk, which he is the founder and CEO of Hale, which is basically the Sephora for men. And that's an interesting episode. So you've got a family of just freaking over achievers. I don't know what the holidays are like when they all get together, but I'm sure it's crazy. I hope you all enjoy this, this episode. It's going to be a good one. I just feel it in me bones. Thanks for listening. Here we go. Pat Burke, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Um, I'm going to be honest, Pat. I'm super excited to be talking to you. Um, last time we were together, you had mentioned you have done 18 Super bowl ads, which is just mind blowing. One, two. I had your son on. That's how we got connected. Sam Burke, who is doing something amazing. He's building, um, a business called Hale. He positions it as the Sephora for Men. I think this guy's on a rocket ship.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you.

Speaker A: You're doing amazing things. Sam's doing. Dude, what the hell kind of family do you have? I mean, what is it like around the holidays for you guys?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, um, it's a lot of boisterous conversation. Uh, yeah, no, it's. We're really proud of Sam. We're really proud of all our kids, and they're. We're happy that we raised them to be sort of like, independent, you know, Independent. We love Sam's entrepreneurial spirit. He's very different from me. He's A lot braver and, uh, um, just so driven and. Yeah, we're really proud of what he's doing. Hopefully it works out and then we can retire early. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, Pat, let's get into it. As I said, when you and I talked before in kind of our pre production phone call, you had mentioned you had done 18 Super bowl ads. I had been in the space a long time. You're the first person I've met who's legit done a Super bowl ad. That's not something you run into a lot. And everybody still watches the Super Bowl. It's a big cultural thing. Uh, just. Let's go top line. Just what is that even like doing a Super bowl ad? I mean, just let us behind the curtain on that, Pat.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's interesting. I didn't, um. I never set out in, you know, when I was in school or when I was getting into the business be like, that's my goal is to make cerebral commercials. You just, uh, you know, I worked in Chicago for a long time on. At agencies that had a lot of packaged goods brands or beer brands that, um, for them it was kind of an annual thing. So I just got really lucky to be working on some of these brands and, and get an opportunity to do it. And I think, you know, from a. From a really sort of base, you know, the starting point is just cool to work on something that everyone, you know, sees. You know, like, there's no. There's no, like, niche target audience. It's literally everyone in America and most people in the world. And so, you know, friends of mine who don't work in advertising and, you know, everyone from my parents to my kids to my kids, friends see it and uh, hopefully they like it. You know, like. Um. But, um, yeah, the process is. Is different. You know, we start a lot earlier. It's. It's a much longer process. There's obvious lot of pressure on it. Um, but, you know, typically, uh, it's different from brand, you know, by brand, but, um, brief in June or July. So it's actually like, you know, five, you know, five months after the last Super Bowl. Super bowl, we're already briefing the next one. Um. Wow. And yeah, it's a really. It's a long process because, you know, there's just. Because it's a bigger investment and, and it's. It's a lot of pressure on it. There is, you know, typically more testing and focus groups and sort of vetting it, uh, with PR folks and, and just, you know, if there's a celebrity involved, that adds a lot of time, obviously, because they have a lot of creative input. And so you have to build in time for that. So, yeah, it's a, it's a longer process. It's a lot more pressure. You know, we refer to it with all the cliches. It's a gauntlet. It's a, you know, um, you don't see a lot of your family for those six, uh, to eight months, you know, but when it's all, all done, it's, it's pretty cool. It's fun.

Speaker A: So Pat, if you wouldn't mind, just, you talked, talked a little bit about it, about it, but if you could just step it out like kind of by what happens you. So you said, you know, what is it? June, July, you start getting, you know, the brief starts happening. I'm sure you start going through ideas then just kind of, if you wouldn't mind, just take us through what is, what's, what are the different major steps that you go through?

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. I mean it's um, there's the, the client brief that comes in to the agency and you know, it all depends on what the brand's goal is and who, you know, what, you know, that's typically something that, you know, sometimes the agency will be involved, but a lot of times it's a business problem or it's, you know, if they're launching a new, you know, I've been involved in pitch, super, uh, bowl pitches where they were trying to launch a new product on the super bowl or um, you know, reinvigorate an old flagship brand. So, you know, every brand has sort of a different goal for why they're there. For some brands, it's annual and for them to be missing from the super bowl would be noticed. And so it's just, so the pressure is always on. But we get a brief, you know, from the client with the goals, uh, that they have for, for, for what they want to do on the Super Bowl. Typically they'll let us know if they want a 30 second spot or 60 second spot, like all the kind of nuts and bolts of it. And then, you know, the creative directors and the planners and the agency team will sort of start to dive into like, what the creative brief is going to be for the creative teams and what, what interesting insights and what different ways in and um, you know, sort of doing some market research and analysis and social listening and try to figure out like, what conversations could we tap into that will stand out on such a crowded stage. And, um, and then we'll, yeah, we'll brief creative teams. Um, usually, you know, mid summer to late summer and several rounds of, of work will come in and a lot of work. You know, it depends. Again, it depends on the brand, depends on the agency. You know, some agencies will throw all their teams at it and make it a big kind of competitive jump ball thing. Everybody wants to get in on it because it's the biggest, you know, assignment of the year. So a lot of times for creative directors, we're reading, you know, 30, 40, 60 scripts, you know, trying to find those, like the ones that really jump out.

Speaker A: Yeah. Do you, is that, uh, being an executive creative director now, Pat, and having gone through this, is. Is that a good way to just kind of operate? Is that just. Or is there no really good way to operate? And by that, I mean, is it best to have one team kind of working on it or. Yeah, let's do that kind of creative jump ball and see who comes up ahead.

Speaker B: There's pluses and minuses. I mean, and it's, that's on any creative assignment. Like, um, you know, on the one hand, if you, you give an assignment to one creative team, a lot of times they are so excited by the fact that they know they're going to make something they're not. They don't, you know, their chances are pretty much 100% and, and it's all on them. Sometimes teams will get really excited, be like, oh, this is our opportunity to do something really great. Um, but obviously like something with as much pressure on it as the Super Bowl, I think, you know, putting a few, a few teams on it so that you can get a few different looks and a few different voices in the room is helpful. Yeah, sure.

Speaker A: So sure.

Speaker B: I'm sure the teams would prefer to, to not be competing, you know, with other teams, but, but everybody gets a good crack at it.

Speaker A: So you go through, you've got a number of teams working on a number. A lot of ideas are being generated. At what point, Pat, do you bring in the client? Do you whittle it down at all? I mean to say, let's say you starting with, you threw out a number, like 60, right? You're starting out with 60 ideas. You whittle that down, obviously. But do you get to like, hey, we've got five here, let's bring the client in at five, you know, or is it like. No, no, no, we got two. You know, typically, like, again, that depends

Speaker B: on, um, the relationship with the client. And, and some agencies like to Put a big stake in the ground and say these are the two. And it also just depends on what you have. I mean, if you have two that are absolutely had, you know, like, so much better. And, and, you know, this is. It has to be one of these two ideas. And sure, you can go in and put that bigger, kind of bigger stake in the ground. But I would say typically we would go in with anywhere from five to eight, um, scripts. Concepts. Um, yeah. And that first round, and there's usually a couple rounds of creative review.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's where I was going. Yep, that's where I was going. So you've got a couple different rounds. How much testing then goes on? Do you get it down to 3? And then do you. Do you like, kind of. And then how do you test some of the ideas, Pat?

Speaker B: Very, very different by brand. Um, that most brands just have kind of a set process for it in place, especially kind of those bigger legacy brands that have been doing it for a long time. But, um, there's usually, typically with the big brands, there's both qualitative and quantitative research. So, you know, they'll, they'll do focus groups where they're literally just asking, is it memorable? Is it entertaining? Do you like it? Do you understand it? And then they'll kind of get a little bit more into the, like, quantitative research, where they want to make sure that the message is, is resonating clearly and that the right things are being played back by people. And, um, I mean, sometimes it gets, you know, I don't. I, I can't necessarily talk about specific projects, but I mean, um, some, some, some brands that I've worked on will test one day, and then we'll make changes and go back in the next day and test the same concept again with, like, slight tweaks to it. And that goes from scripts, scripts and storyboards all the way through something that we've shot and edited. Um, and we're, you know, weeks from the super bowl, and they'll test sort of a rough edit of the commercial. Um, and then if people come back and say, oh, they didn't find the ending funny, then we'll get that feedback and we'll go back into the edit room and try a different ending. You know, it's, um. It can get pretty granular.

Speaker A: I got it.

Speaker B: And

Speaker A: from your standpoint, Pat, you finish the ad, it's sent off, it's going to run right, you're done. You take that, you take that hit of oxygen and exhale. Um, how do you judge it? How do you. Pat Burke, how do you judge the work?

Speaker B: Well, like a finished spot, I. I'm always excited if it's pretty close to what we pictured. That's always like a thrill, you know, like, if it's the thing that you've been working on for six or eight months and you've had it in your head a certain way. And, um, you know, I've had a couple instances where the finished product is almost exactly what I had pictured in my head or me and the team had talked about all along. And when it gets made and it's. It lives up to what you. What you pictured and sort of what you had hoped. That's. That's always amazing. As far as, like, success, you know, we don't know until Monday morning if, if we did our jobs because, um, you know, we're usually pretty happy with the end product. I don't think I've ever been associated with a Super bowl commercial where when we shipped it, we were like, ah, bummer. Uh, that didn't turn out like. But, you know, we worked hard to make sure that it comes out in a way that we're happy with. But you, um. Can't play defense is a phrase that we use sometimes. Like, we don't know what the other brands are going to put on the game. And at the end of the day, it's. It's a. It's a PR event as much as it is an advertising advertisement, you know, or an advertising moment. And, um, if people aren't talking about your spot on talk shows in the days after the super bowl, it's. I wouldn't say it's a failure. I mean, uh, you know, it's just. But that's kind of the goal is, is you want to be part of the cultural conversation in the days leading up to the game with your teasers and your social posts and, and things like that. And then you want that PR window to extend with the kind of earned PR that you don't pay for when Jimmy Kimmel is talking about it or Good Morning America is talking about it. And, um, hopefully you've hit on something and that you get that extra PR tail.

Speaker A: You've been in the business a while. Talk about what has changed from like your first ad, your first super bowl ad to now. Right? Or most recent.

Speaker B: Yeah,

Speaker A: just cook on that for a minute.

Speaker B: It's changed a bit. I mean, I think there's, um, a little. I mean, you know, the obvious one is I think there's a little more focus on celebrities, on the game now, um, than there used to be. I worked on Budweiser and Bud Light for, for many years back in the 90s. Um, not to date myself, but, uh, you know, we used to, you know, those brands would fairly often win, quote, unquote, you know, win the, or win the ad meter and win a lot of the polls and get a lot of the attention without celebrities. And usually with a 30 second commercial opposed to a 60. And, um, that's changed a little bit. Although in the last couple years, you know, number one and number two on the ad meter were not celebrity spots. So I think you're seeing a little bit more of that come back in. But yeah, there's a, there's a bit more, there's more money spent now on. It was, it was expensive back then. Uh, it was, it was a big deal back then. But I feel like it's become, um, again, it's this big PR moment. And I think people realize that. And so it's a, it's very competitive to stand out on that stage.

Speaker A: That leads me to the question about celebrities. The question I have, pat, is why do you use celebrities? And I'm guessing it's because of that PR tale. But it seems, push back on this. It seems like many, uh, times, I don't know if these are any of your ads, but a lot of times when you watch it's like, okay, so, and so is in the ad. Did they need to be in that ad?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like, are they adding that much to it?

Speaker B: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: How do you. Yeah, how do you work around that? Like, or, you know, like square that circle?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, I do think, I think that's something. And you, you know, if you look, read on LinkedIn the morning, the morning after the super bowl, and it's just post after post complaining about the number of celebrities. And I get it, like, and in a lot of cases, they just seem tacked on. They don't seem to align with the brand at all. It's just celebrity for celebrity sake. And I understand that. I think when it's done well, it's someone that's in it that can help define what the brand is. It's someone who aligns with the brand in some way and that can help just a little bit quicker for consumers understand the personality of the brand. So if you're doing it right, I think you're finding people who are in it for a reason. Um, um, but I do think, I do think it is the PR tale and I think that's the thing that some people, when they're complaining about that, don't understand. And I wish it were different. Like, there's. There's ads that I see on the super bowl that don't have celebs that I think are just incredibly well written and really funny and, and just an incredible idea. But at the end of the day, they're not getting mentioned on Good Morning America, or they're not. They don't have someone on, um, Fallon that week talking about, hey, did you see my Super Bowl? Crucial. So I think that it is like, you know, but there's a huge expense to that. So you have to, like, do the math of like, whether that investment is worth it. But I think that the PR window, again, it depends on the concept. I'm not saying you have to have a celebrity in your ad to do well in the super bowl. Again. I, you know, I did one for Lays potato chips two years ago that did pretty well and had no celeb in it. And the last two years, Budweiser and Lays have done incredibly well on the game without celebrities. But if it's right for your brand and if it helps consumers kind of get a better idea of what, what your brand personality is, you. You are going to have a longer PR window that could be weeks instead of hours. And so that if that investment is worth it, it's just kind of something that you have to decide with your clients when

Speaker A: you. And, um, going back into time, when you're working on your first spot, you're thinking about that in either the 30 or 60 increment. Nowadays though, Pat, are you thinking about the creative just differently in that. Yep. Obviously you have to have a Super bowl spot.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: That's going to air on tv. So you're thinking about that. But it's like, well, how's this going to look on the socials and do we. How are we going to cut it this way? And how is your, like, just formatting wise and thinking about that is that change how you create, you come at a project creatively.

Speaker B: It, it has a little bit. I mean, I think that, you know, obviously, like, the different channels that it lives in, um, have changed since I started in the business. But, like, my very first super bowl campaign was, uh, a thing for Oscar Meyer, which had a, um, a national contest with kids singing the Oscar Mayer, uh, jingle and picking like. And so there was already sort of other. A bigger campaign around it. And I think even, even going back that far, and I'm not a young man, uh, but even going back that Far people understood that, you know, you need to try to make it. It needs to go beyond that 30 or 60 seconds on one NFL broadcast. And, um, but it's definitely changed. You know, like, the teasers are a big deal and social posts, social, um, content surrounding it. It's a campaign. It's not one ad.

Speaker A: Yeah, typically. Yeah. And so I want to hold on that for a minute. So those. The spot's going to air on the super bowl. But when are you typically done with like, okay, it's got to be in the can because we have to start the teases. We have to start doing the PR work. Like, you know, if you're starting. If you, if you're really starting in, let's say June. Right. With a, uh, with a. The, the brief. Are you done now in September? Like, things are pretty much wrapped up or how far in the year are you going?

Speaker B: Uh, no, it can go pretty far. I mean, and we've. I've had projects where we re. Briefed. The week of Thanksgiving had to start completely over. That was not a. I don't want to relive that. But. Yeah, um, but usually we have all that. The whole campaign kind of written and sort of concepted and all, uh, sort of. We have the teasers written and the social content written at the same. We're doing that at the same time as we're writing the 30 or the 62nd actual Super bowl script. Um, so that when we go into production, you capture all of those pieces as part of one production. Um, and we're usually editing them at the same time and finishing them and mixing them and doing the audio, like all of that in parallel. So you might have one edit bay where the super bowl commercial is being edited, and then you have another editor going in the next room who's cutting teasers, and then another editor going in the next room is cutting social posts. And, um, it's all kind of one part of one production, typically.

Speaker A: I gotcha. And Pat, is it. Is it. Is it the time that you just mentioned where it was Thanksgiving and you've got to redo everything. Was that a product of the creative just wasn't hitting or was the. Did the goal change that, you know, did something on the client side say, hey, you know what, we were going this way, we got to go this way for whatever reason?

Speaker B: Yeah, it was that. In fact, we, we and I. Yeah, I doubt I can get into the specifics of it, but we actually still ended up producing that other commercial that, um, it was a. It was a Brief, uh, sort of a. A business goal change. Some leadership changed. They still were really happy with the creative and ended up turning out great. And everybody was very happy with it. But what they wanted to actually put on the game, um, the goals for the brand on the super bowl changed significantly. And so they said, we would rather have this message out on the game. Can you guys turn something around quickly and get it on in time? And we did, so, yeah.

Speaker A: Wow. Okay, Pat, uh, I want to. I want to understand your process again. Once you get the brief and you're thinking about whatever you're thinking about had it, how do you start chipping away at the stone? Right. How do you start getting to something like, are you a guy who. You know, I want to know minutiae, too? Do you take a, uh, number two pencil and a yellow legal pad and start writing down headlines? Are you throwing a Nerf basketball back and forth with some buddies? What. How do you start coming up with and start generating something?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's a little bit of that. Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, it's better with other creative minds around you and sort of batting around ideas. I mean, first of all, you know, it's not just the creatives. It's the strategists. Like, having great strategists and the team around us, the account team, who knows the client's goals, and like, having. Coming up with a great insight together as a team, like working with really great strategic planners. Um, and then for me, I mean, one of the starting points for me is to take the language of the brief and to start pulling out words that stick out to me. Maybe rewriting, rewriting, sort of the, um, the unique selling proposition, where it's. It's called different things on different briefs. A lot of times it's just called the one thing. Like, as a creator, we typically look at a brief and like, in one sentence, what it. If. If consumers only walked away remembering one thing, what should it be? And so I look for that sentence, and again, it's different for everybody. I'll. I'll just rewrite that sentence a few different ways to see if I can come upon a new angle at it. Um, or set up words that sparks something. Um, so that's kind of one starting point. But yeah, I mean, the biggest unlocks usually happen when you get two or three creative people in a room, maybe more. Sometimes I don't like. For me, I don't love big brainstorm sessions. I find. Don't. I think they can help in unlocking insights, and I think they're helpful for certain marketing goals. But when it comes to coming up with, like, a. A creative idea, a concept for a script or something like that, I do better in smaller groups, but, um, that's just me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then just kind of bouncing ideas around, you know, laughing a lot and, uh, having fun. And, uh, that's why we got into this business, because it's fun.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, there's a kind of a saying when you're looking for a house. You just kind of know it when you. When you walk in. Right. Is that like that with. I think so, Ads, too? I mean, do you feel like. I know this is it? I mean, I just know it. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. A lot of times it's like, we call it, like, something that just is sticky or right away, you know, and like, it's easy to sum up in two sentences, and everybody smiles and nods and understands it. Or it's, um. It's got a hook that's just so simple and clear. Like when you. Yeah, I think that's a really satisfying moment in this job because you don't hit that point with every brief necessarily. You know, sometimes. And sometimes you just. Yeah, sometimes you just don't hit that moment. But, like, when you do, it's really. Everybody instantly lights up, and it's like, this is. And usually clients see it too, right away. You're confident when you go in that meeting that everyone who's heard the idea instantly gets it and lights up. And you're very confident when you walk into that client meeting that you have something special.

Speaker A: I want to flip the tables a little bit, Pat, and I want to get your take on, um, clients right? Because, um, creating good work takes a good partner, Right?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: What makes a good client? I mean, obviously there's going to be people who accept things, but is that the only thing? So, I mean, you've dealt with a lot of clients. I don't want to get into names. I don't want to point people, but, like, you know, this client was good because. And this client was challenging because.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Fill in the blanks for us.

Speaker B: I've. Yeah, I've been lucky that I've had a lot of good client relationships over the years. I think, um, what makes a good client is. Is. Is collaboration and treating us like a partner and not a vendor. Um, and communication, you know, and. And I. And. And I think, um. So it's a really good question. I think just understanding that we're, uh. If everybody has to have empathy, I think like, we have to have empathy for what our clients are going through. I think a lot, a lot of times, especially, especially creatives on the agency side, um, can get really precious and be divas. And that, that can be true that, um, we don't necessarily understand the pressures that our clients are under, the business pressures, beyond just the brief that we're working on and stuff. And so I think having us having empathy, but then also clients who understand that, you know, we're not just trying to be cute and funny and like that, that good creative. We honestly believe that good creative is going to break through and that no one's going to pay attention to your message if they don't see it. No one's going to remember, um, your RTBs if they're not paying attention. And so the reason creatives, I think, get excited about, you know, the best creatives and most of the creatives that I've worked with over the years are problem solvers. It's not that we just want to be screenwriters or artists. Like, we like solving a brand problem and we get excited about ideas that we think are going to break through. Um, so, yeah, just the partnership and collaboration is. Those are. And I've been lucky. I've had a lot of really great. And my current client on UberEats is. They're incredible. They're really good taste. Um, and when they see a great idea, they get behind it right away. Nope, I didn't say anything there that's going to get me in trouble.

Speaker A: I don't think so. I don't think so at all. Is it harder than Pat today, in today's day and age. Let me back up. You made a comment there about breaking through a creative, and it seems like that is the. That is the. The factor. That's the X factor. Like strong creative seems right now more than ever to me to be just such a, um, in one, a, um, big factor. But two, it's an. It's a precious commodity. I mean, it's just tougher and tougher to break through.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, and it's. Is it. Is that. Is that just. I don't know the answer, but is that just a. Clients are more just a little bit gun shy about, you know, kind of stepping out. Is it just the nature of the world right now? Just, you know, we're being pulled like saltwater taffy. Right. And, you know, in a million different directions? Or is it something else?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Again, you've been in the space a long time, Pat. I'd love to get Your take.

Speaker B: But I think, um, yes, to kind of all of that. I think like we have to remember, and all of us in this business have to remember that consumers are actively avoiding marketing. Like, they are active, like, and even we do it. Like, I don't, I don't, I can't hit skip ad fast enough when I'm trying to. And so, um, you know, gone are the days, you know, gone are the days when consumers have to watch your TV commercial in order to find out who killed Junior, you know, like. And so I think, um, I kind of think that like in, at this point and uh, this is, might be a controversial statement, but I don't think there's such a thing as best practices. I think that's one. Like that phrase to me is like, by the time we had, we as marketers think we have figured out, you know, how to reach a consumer, they have figured out how to avoid us yet again. And so instead of doing that, in which I just think a lot of legacy brands are stuck a little bit stuck in this model of like, you know, trying to figure out how to sort of force their message into consumers mindsets. Instead of trying to show up in a way where consumers are interested in it and want to interact with your brand and the successful brands do that, they show up in a way that consumers are like, okay, you get it, um, you're cool. And what you have to say is relevant and interesting to me as opposed to how fast can I hit skip.

Speaker A: To that end, Pat, I'm gonna. Let's, let's leave. Uh, let's move off of, off of Super Bowl. But I want one final question for you on that is what's the thing that like, people really don't realize about a Super bowl ad? Or what's the one thing that's like, you know, when you're at a cocktail party and someone's asking you about it, it's like, yeah, you wouldn't believe this. And it might be something that's hard, it might be something that's super easy. I don't know. But what is that? What is that?

Speaker B: Um, well, if it's, if it's the. You wouldn't believe this thing. I think a lot of times people don't realize how long the process is, which I know we already talked about. I mean, that's typically something that people are surprised about if, if they're not in this business is just how long the process is. Um, I think the thing that some, some brands, in my opinion don't understand is um, the, the thing that I've mentioned a few times, and again, this is just my opinion, is that you have to kind of treat it more like a pr. A PR moment than an ad. So I think there's a temptation. Well, I hope I don't get in trouble for saying any of this, but I think there's a temptation sometimes for. And I've never worked with any of these clients, but just from what I kind of see from some, some super bowl ads would be, oh, uh, this is the most eyeballs I'm ever going to have on, um, my brand. So I want to load this up with selling message. Um, I want to load it up with RTVs. I'm going to put my app demo in there. I'm going to have this. And you know, maybe, maybe they're seeing returns on that. I hope they are. You know, I don't, you know, I, I would never judge a brand that I, or a project that I wasn't involved in because you just, you're not along for the ride. You don't understand the goals and. But to me, um, you have to be even more simple with your message at that moment because look, look what you're competing again. I mean, it has become this, like, entertainment, uh, night, you know, where, you know, it's, it is branded entertainment. It's sponsored entertainment. And like, you, you can do that and basically become wallpaper in something that no one remembers because you're sandwiched in between, you know, Jennifer Lopez and, and some commercial with, you know, so, so if you don't, if you're not being talked about and you're not being remembered and noticed, you know. So I think that's just the temptation is like we're spending all this money load that commercial up with, with too much information. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a, like a, a selling proposition and that you shouldn't have an insight. You should, you should have one very simple insight and you should deliver in a way that people are going to be excited about and remember and talk about with their friends the next day, you know. Cool.

Speaker A: Pat, let's switch gears a little bit. I want to talk about agencies just in general. Um, where are agencies at, at this point? Like, ah, where, where are, where is their kind of. Where is their footing? Is there mooring is. Is. I'd love to get your take on. On. On just.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And agencies in general.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's changing really fast. I mean, I spent most of my career in large holding company agencies and then, um, you Know, probably seven, seven or eight years ago I left uh, to go to an independent agency in Chicago called Hydai which still really good friends of mine. The partners there are amazing, the people that are amazing. Um, I left there recently to move to Los Angeles to come to special group which super excited about and happy about and again people are amazing. I, so I, I'm still, you know, just a few years I guess into sort of the smaller independent agencies. I prefer it personally and I think that the, the, the communication with clients is, is streamlined and the, it's very refreshing for me after being part of kind of really large slow moving agencies with processes that are kind of like barges that don't maneuver very quickly and can't turn very quickly. I, I really enjoy kind of the nimbleness and just the personal relationships that we have with our clients and, and direct contact with them and then direct contact with leadership between sort of the creative teams or the more junior, junior talent and literally the owners of the agency, you know, sitting right across the table for me. So I think that for some brands that that industry is moving in that direction. I think that some brands are finding that that model fits their goals uh, better. Um, what's happening with the holding companies is crazy right now and I don't know if it's good or bad. I'm not, I'm not at any of them, you know, obviously. Um, but it's sad to me that that's some big names that. I mean I think three, three. Um, but the first three agencies that I've worked for, possibly the first four agencies that I work for literally no longer exist. Uh, J. Walter Thompson is gone. DDB is gone.

Speaker A: Um, that's crazy.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's, it's sad. Uh, you know those are like storied, kind of, you know, burn back, you know.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: But there must be a compelling business reason for why that happened. I just, I don't see it.

Speaker A: And I got a, I got a thesis. I want to throw it out to you and I'd love to get your take on it. And that is. We're going to see, we're already seeing a shift but the world, the agency world is going to be divided this way. And I'm calling it the Barbell theory. On one end of the, on one end of the barbell you've got the big players. They're going to be around for obvious reasons. They're working with global clients. They need to have global clients want to once an agency that has a big footprint so those will exist. Will there be as many of them? I don't know. But there will be these, these, these, these whales right on the other end you've got really small, nimble shops and I'm talking about anything from two people to ten like that size.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And I think both the big ones and the large ones are going to do very well for different reasons. In the middle is going to be a struggle and that is unless there is a kind of a maniacal focus on a, on something. It's either a vertical, it's either, or a demographic or something that sets it apart. That's the theory that I have pat poke holes in it. What do you think?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's interesting. Um, and I don't know that I have enough insight into all of those different sized agencies. I do think, um, a place like where I'm at now and where I, where I left in Chicago at high dive, like when they do well, they grow and so a place that, you know, I think I was the 10th, 10th full time employee at high dive and when I left, I want to say we were close to 150 people. But I think that they, I think that the, if you keep the focus on what made the agency great and, and you build a culture around something that everyone understands, everyone who's involved understands, whether you're a strategy based agency or a creative based agency or a client service based agency, if everyone understands m it and feels like they're a part of it and is excited to be a part of it and you can keep that, your own agency's brand, uh, intact and the culture intact, then I think you can grow and you can keep what's great about the agency. And I think that that growth and the work that you do will just keep attracting the right kind of clients because they'll see the work that you're doing for, you know that I think clients are looking for agencies that are working with other clients like them, not obviously in the same category but like, you know, they don't seek you out if you're doing the kind of work that they don't want to do. And so I think the, I think there's a way that you can grow from a small to medium sized agency and still keep what's great about and the reason that you were, you know, the founders founded the place and what they were trying to create.

Speaker A: So let's hang on that for a minute. Again, you've got a, you've been a number of shops, you've seen things. I m Don't want to use the term best practice because you say, hey, that's not, I don't even know if that works anymore. But what are things that like, you know, make a good shop a good shop? Obviously it's the people, but it's got to be even more than that. What are things that you've observed? It's like this is what you got to have. You owners or who's ever running the place have got to be like just bulldogs about this or this or what are those intangibles. Right?

Speaker B: I mean I think to me, to me again it comes back to culture, um, and creating. And it's not like there's, there's no one right culture for an agency. So you know, the founders of the agency kind of set that culture and then hire the uh, the people who fit that culture and can get excited about it. And I think like, I think having everyone feel like they're a part of something special, um, is the key. And then as you grow, how do you make sure that people still feel like they're a part of something all the way down to the junior level, that they feel like they have a real impact on what the agency does and where it's headed. And um, I think if you can do that regardless of what you build your agency around, again, you could be a strategy based agency or creative based agency. You could be an agency that specializes in comedy or you can be a social agency or um, you know, pharma agency. But like everybody can kind of understand what the agency stands for and what the agency culture is. If everybody there can sum m it up when you ask them, then I think you're, you're going to be okay in.

Speaker A: How is that done? What have you seen as being successful tactics that allow that to happen to the degree that it can.

Speaker B: Leadership. Yeah, I think just um, involved leaders. And that's hard. I understand too because they have client relationships to look after and there's a ton of pressure on the people who are responsible for all those employees who make the culture of an agency. And um, you know, there's a lot of pressure on, on that. So it's, it's having, making the time to, to lead and um, for the people who work for you to feel like you're accessible and that you're someone that they can go to, to. There's someone that they can talk to, there's someone they can learn from, there's some, someone that they can call a mentor, um, and then just communication within the agency so that Again, just checking back in fairly often and making sure that everybody feels like they're part of something and that they understand and that they can sum up in a couple of sentences what your agency stands for and what the culture of that agency is. And, you know, communication is key. Just, you know, checking back in to make sure everybody's still. Still on board.

Speaker A: I want to talk about you, Pat, and just kind of understanding this is a demanding business. You're. You're on a lot. You're. You're now an executive creative director, so you're training people, you're helping, mentoring, etc. But from your standpoint, how do you. How do you keep the. Well full? Like, uh, how does Pat Burke stay. Stay creative and stay, like, in tune with, hey, this is what's going on, right? I mean, we get to a point where it's like, who's that rock band? What song is this?

Speaker B: Well, yeah, that's like, yeah, I just text my kids when I want to know what's going on on social media or with pop culture. They're like, hey, explain who this person is to me. Because I think we're reaching out to them for a cameo on the spot. Um, no, I mean, I think. I mean, any. For any creative. It's always important, I think, for it. Well, I mean, for any of us, not just creative people, but I think it's important to, like, have interests outside of your industry and not be in a monoculture. And so, like, having interests in friends outside of the industry, like, you know, it's. It's really helpful and grounds you to, like, go to a bar with people who have nothing to do with advertising and realize after a few minutes that, like, oh, that thing that I was really worked up and stressed about all day, it's really not the end of the world, you know, so. And then just, you know, hobbies and, um, I think it's important for creative people in particular. I think it's really good to have another creative outlet, something you do. You know, I know writers who are also painters. I know. You know, I'm a musician, not a great musician, but I play a few instruments, and I think, um, those kinds of things make for better creatives.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: If you're just stuck in the world of marketing and advertising all the time, you're not going to make very good work.

Speaker A: What do you give us? I want to know. A Day in the life of Pat Burke. And I know you're gonna. I know. I know what you're gonna say. Every day is gonna be different, but by and large, you get up at what time. What time do you get to the office?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, you know, do you block out time for, like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm still gonna work on my craft. I'm still gonna give me the brief. I'm gonna do a couple headlines just as, you know, just to keep the talent there. Take us through your day.

Speaker B: Um, it's. Well, yeah, every day is different. And then since moving to Los Angeles, it's certainly changed because my commute is quite long. So, um. But we're, you know, we're in the office typically three days a week. I go in a little more than that, probably on average, but, you know, often, like, today I'm working from home, and most Mondays and Fridays, we work from home. Um, I have to get up a bit earlier if I want to, like, get a run in and still get to the office on a Tuesday or Wednesday. Um, it's a pretty early morning, but, um, it depends on, you know, how busy we are. I mean, super bowl time is crazy, so fall and winter, the hours are pretty crazy. And then, you know, might ease up a little bit in the spring and might have a little more free time. Um, I do set aside time for. Right. I don't like to necessarily write on the briefs where I'm the creative director because it seems like, you know, competing with the teams that work for me. But, um, I do some side writing. I write for some magazines and, um, yeah, that kind of thing. And a little bit if I feel like I need, like, a little creative outlet. Um, yeah, I mean, commute. I try to, you know, it's pretty long commute. We moved to the east side of LA and our offices in the west side. So I spend a lot of time in my car, but I try to use that time to, like, call, um, home, listen to podcasts. I'm relearning Spanish with an app.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just trying to do that in the car. And, um. But, uh, in the office, it's. Every day is very, very different. There are days where we're just kind of heads down in our laptops, concepting, um, or I'm reading scripts. I'm just working with the creative teams. And there are other days where it's just a lot of client meetings and client interaction, um, which is obviously important.

Speaker A: Yeah. And are you with clients quite a bit in your role, Pat?

Speaker B: Yes. Uh, physically, not as. Yeah. But like, on zooms. And. Yeah, we have client interaction almost daily, I would say, or a couple times a week. Pretty much. And we do, like, we will still travel, I think. I think it is important to sort of like, like in the old days, you know, get on a plane and go spend some time in the room with the clients and work through some problems together. I think that's really productive. So we'll do that a bit as well.

Speaker A: Um, Pat, I can't leave, uh, this conversation without getting your take on this little thing called AI. I'd like to just understand how you're thinking about it and how you're using it and just thoughts on, like, how's it going to impact the business?

Speaker B: Yeah, and that's the big question. It's everybody's question. I mean, I think it's. I mean, so far, uh, it's been a tool to help the creatives. I, I think it's. It's been a helpful tool. Um, I think I see kind of writers and creative teams using it as a way to maybe come at an idea differently and to get through maybe a writer's block moment or, um, here's a. Here's a way at it that I hadn't thought of. But then they go off and do the writing and come up with the concept themselves. You know, I don't, I don't really see a lot of our teams relying on AI to come up with the ideas. Um, it has helped, I will say. You know, art directors and designers make. Can make really beautiful presentation decks much faster, and it sort of, sometimes that helps kind of sell an idea that maybe would have been difficult to try to, um, create with a Photoshop comp or, or to try to describe in a paragraph. They can kind of, you know, I think at times it helps sell through ideas because you can kind of create a visual deck that really gets pretty close to what you have in your head. So I think that's been. That's a good tool in production. You know, we're using it a little bit. We're starting to use it more in production. It's, uh, I think it speeds up some processes. Uh, I think it changes a little bit. It's starting to change what can be done on smaller budgets, which is. It's cool and interesting. So, you know that when you used to have sort of limited time or limited money on a project, it really limited, very much limited what you could do and what you could deliver. And I think, like, it's changing that in an interesting way. Um, so, yeah, we'll see. You know, it's. We've had, We've had, uh, hits and misses. With it, as far as production, we've had some struggles with AI and, and then we've had some successes. So it's. But it's getting better every day and it's here to stay.

Speaker A: Do you, do you feel that with AI in and let me again, let me back up, Pat. One of the things I've noticed from talking to a lot in the, in the marketing field is just craft at speed. You talked about presentation decks and putting that together. That's a great example. What may have taken, you know, in the past two weeks, three weeks, I don't know, a period of time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You may be able to get there in a couple hours.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Right now your ability to call the client back and go, hey, you know that conversation we had at 10:00 clock this morning?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I got something for you at 1. You want to jump on? Is that a good thing? Is that help sell things in faster? I mean, or is it not?

Speaker B: I think it can be. I mean I think it, it has helped us, you know, um, fairly recently, I would say, where we had to pivot quickly with, you know, on a certain idea and, and just help, you know, as far as the decks and presentation materials, I would say like, I think it's a handy tool. I think it's limiting and it all, it all still, by the way, it all still kind of looks a little AI so sometimes those decks are kind of creepy looking. But like if you're really trying to like help a client team or even an agency team, envision what you have in mind. It instead of. I think I would say the art directors are pretty happy with it because they're not there until midnight trying to Photoshop one comp, um, to try to sell an idea that they're really excited about, you know. So I think it for in those situations, I think it's a handy, it's a very handy tool. But there are definitely limits too.

Speaker A: We're going to wind down Pat, but I got a couple other questions for you. Um, you were in Chicago, you spent a number of years, you're a Midwest guy. Fair.

Speaker B: I am, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, okay, well, you're talking to a Brewer fan, so I'm going to cut this short. But you're Midwest guy now you're in la. Talk about the differences there. When you got to there, it's like, oh, okay, this is a little bit different. Yeah, it might be good, it might be bad, it just might be. Something's like, oh, that's interesting. But any, anything of note?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's I have a lot of friends in the industry who had moved from Chicago out here, and they all stayed. Uh, so that told me something, you know, and it can't just be for the weather. I think it's. I think it's interesting, the production, uh, this is obviously where production is based. And so I think there's. There's something interesting about being closer, tied in to the production community as the people who are coming up with the ideas. And so, like, just even having those relationships with the actual directors, editors, you know, the creative people are helping bring the concepts to life. Like, we used to fly out here for production and we would spend a week, a week and a half maybe at most, and then you fly home. But here you're. You're kind of in the heart of it a little bit. And so I think I feel that a little bit, you know, and there are great agencies here, and so there's a really great base of talent, um, from creative talent here. And so there seems to be, like, an excitement in this town, not that it didn't exist in Chicago. I love Chicago. I will always love Chicago. It's always going to be home. But, um, yeah, it's. It was kind of an interesting, um, buzz around the industry here, and I think a focus on creative and craft at pretty much every agency. I don't think agencies can survive in this town unless they're. They have that focus. Um, so that's. That I'm enjoying. Uh, I find it interesting. Um, it is a. A whole new community of people. I mean, by the time I left Chicago, I feel like I, I knew, you know, a lot of people in the ad community there, and we had a pretty tight community. And so it's. I'm new here and nobody knows me, but it's. Everybody's. Everybody seems nice so far. Basically all these people have come from other towns anyway. Like, nobody's actually from Los Angeles, so there's plenty of Midwesterners here too.

Speaker A: You know, that's, um, you're the executive creative director, um, which, which is saying something. It means you've got the chops, You've been around. You've. You've. You've got, uh, the battle scars. But as we talked about a little bit earlier, you're not, you're not doing the work. You're overseeing a lot of the work. You're trying to provide guidance. What are things you like about it? What are things you miss from just being, um, a normal writer?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I miss it a lot, and I kind of Whine about it a lot, I think, with some of my friends. But I got into this industry because I wanted to be a writer, not a business person. And the sort of higher up you go, the less writing you do. Um, so I miss it. And it's one reason why I have other creative outlets, um, and. And at smaller agencies, like where I'm at now, or, uh, independent agencies, like, there's. There aren't a lot of sort of rear echelon generals. Like, we still have to get in there and do creative work, which I like, you know, um, we still get in there and write. So that part is great. Um, but I do miss sort of. If I could just go back to being a writer and do that. I think it was a little more fun. But, um, but I do really enjoy, you know, I like the client interaction, especially when we have clients, like, like the clients that we have who are just like really great partners and great people. And I do like, um, sort of working with the young talent. I really like that part of it. Um, hopefully they like working with me. I don't know. You know, it remains to be seen, but, like, I think like, the mentor, mentee relationship and sort of like, um, seeing young creatives who have worked for me for a number of years start to, like, come into their own, find their own voice, so they're not trying to, like, replicate mine or some other creative director's voice, but, like, find their own voice and like, find their own success. It's like, it's really rewarding. And I'm seeing a little bit of that now. Some creators that I used to work with in Chicago who are, like, really kicking ass and doing amazing things, and I'm just really proud of them.

Speaker A: So, uh, rapid fire here, Pat. Uh, your top two, three ads, like, damn, I wish I would have wrote or created that one. What are those, man?

Speaker B: Um, I have always loved, um, the Snickers Betty White commercial is a classic. I love that one. I loved, uh, the Volkswagen Darth Vader, um, the Force commercial is incredible. And I was. And I worked on Skittles a bit, but before that, just the work that that brand did over the years, um, at Chia, I believe it was mostly a Chia, but like, um, there's a Midas Touch commercial where every time everything the guy touches turns into Skittles. It's still. Every time I watch, it makes me laugh. Uh, yeah, I would say those are. Those are close

Speaker A: two to three clients that you would love to work with.

Speaker B: I. I've worked with a Lot of my dream clients, you know, I, um. Well, it's a tricky one. Um, I'd like to work on. I'd like to work on Apple, I think. Um, it's just interesting. It's different from anything I've done before. I haven't done a lot of. Of I've done tech, but not. Not sort of on that consumer side of it. Um, I love Liquid Death. I love the work that Liquid Death does. It's incredible. Every single thing they do is amazing. Um, yeah, and I would like to do more work with my current client, UberEats.

Speaker A: Fair enough.

Speaker B: And then suck up to them.

Speaker A: Pet two to three books. That's like, yeah, these books really hit home and do a good job talking about advertising or the creative process or

Speaker B: whatever, you know, I don't. I'm going to admit that I don't really read a lot of books about this industry. I think, hey, Whipple Squeeze, this was a great one that I read back in the day.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: I just. Yeah, I don't know. I have this kind of aversion. Not aversion, but, like, when I come home at the end of the day, I don't. I didn't even watch Mad Men. I was just like. Like, this is what I do for a living. And when I'm gonna sit down and read a book, I don't usually read about advertising, if I'm being honest. Uh, other than, like, I do. I do still look at the award shows just because it's good to know what other, uh, brands, especially in other countries too, other cultures. So, like Creative Arts, you know, the one show, you know, Uh, I do still pay attention to that stuff.

Speaker A: Pat Burke is the executive Creative Director at Special Group out in la. Pat, God bless you and thank you for coming on. I really, really enjoyed talking with you.

Speaker B: Oh, thanks.

Speaker A: I enjoyed it, too. How do people find out more about you, more about Special Group? Whatever you want to promote? Sir, the mic is yours.

Speaker B: Oh, um, this hour probably sums me up pretty good. You probably don't need to know more about me, but, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm on LinkedIn and social Instagram and so I don't really do Facebook, but. And Special Group, we have offices in, um. I believe we're in eight cities now, but it's an independent agency. Um, uh, we have two offices in the U.S. we have Los Angeles and New York. Um, really amazing team. Really growing team. Um, look us up. It's, uh, it's a. We live up to the name. It's a special place. I really enjoying it so far.

Speaker A: Pat Burke, anytime you want to come back on, the mic is always open. I appreciate you, buddy.

Speaker B: Thanks, Patrick.