#385 How Do We Level the AI Fluency Playing Field? The 21 Days of AI Grit and Growth Mindset Challenge

Speaker A: Welcome to our Cureus Amalgam, the weekly podcast brought to you by the Antitrust Law section of the American Bar Association. Our curious amalgam explores the fascinating and increasingly overlapping world of competition, consumer protection, data protection and privacy law. Each week we bring you leading global experts on the most compelling issues of the day. Enjoy the show.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to our Cureus Amalgam. I'm Alicia Downey and the title title of today's episode is how do we level the AI fluency playing field? A conversation with the co creator of the 21 Days of AI challenge. Today, artificial intelligence or AI is everywhere. But the extent to which AI is being utilized and by whom varies a lot. Recently, a joint collaboration between the American Bar association center for Innovation and and the Commission on Women rolled out the 21 days of AI grit and growth Mindset Challenge, a uh, publicly accessible online tool designed to take on the gender gap in AI technology. It's a gap with major implications for the legal profession if AI driven innovation leaves big parts of the profession behind. Our guest today is a longtime leader in the Antitrust Law section and and one of the co creators of the AI Challenge. We'll hear about how the project came about and why the Challenge has something to offer not only to women, but to anyone who feels they are less than fluent in AI. But before we talk about that, I'd like to welcome my co host, James Hunsberger. Hello James.

Speaker C: Hi Alicia.

Speaker D: Great to see you.

Speaker B: Good to see you too. Would you like to introduce our guest and kick off the conversation?

Speaker D: Absolutely. Gabrielle Kohlmeier, uh, recently left Verizon where she went from antitrust AGC to market GC to global head of Legal innovation and emerging solutions. A role that included acquiring and deploying AI for the 1000 plus person Chief Legal Officer organization, the largest corporate legal AI deployment at that time. She currently advises firms and companies from Fortune 1/00 and M Amla, uh 2/00 to boutiques and startup on leading organizations, teams, client relationships and AI. She is also an officer of the Antitrust Law Section, serving as uh, Section Delegate to the ABA House of Delegates. Welcome to our curious amalgam, Gabrielle.

Speaker C: Thanks James. And thank you Alicia. As uh, someone who is relentlessly curious and a complete antitrust nerd, it is such a pleasure to be here with you.

Speaker D: So turning to the topic of today, tell us a little bit more about the 21 days of AI, uh, grit and Growth Mindset Challenge. Great title by the way. Uh, how did it come about and what was the role of the Antitrust law section.

Speaker C: So the origin story of the 21 Days of AI challenge is this confluence of seeing the huge potential of AI on how lawyers uh, can enhance their practice, especially lawyers like us in the antitrust consumer protection field that are dealing with massive amounts of uh, quantitative and qualitative data, years if not decades worth of records, um, and so much opportunity for technology, especially technology like AI to really enhance the practice from a professional lens, um, and beyond frankly. But also the other part of the confluence is this keen awareness of the pitfalls of using um, data like AI to and how often certain um, parts of our community is left behind. Um, when we are talking about AI as a commissioner on women, very focused on the gender um gap, um, a lot of focus on the gender technology gap, um, the gap of women in the profession generally. And what was clear um, that it was already coming was this gender AI gap. Uh, and as uh, the Commission on Women had been using this research um, around grit and growth mindset for about a decade to try to address the gender gap because it was a way to really shift mindsets and shift focus to something that encouraged um, change behavior and longevity. And the UM AI Challenge leverages that research as well as um, the big corpus of opportunity around AI to create this uh, practice of how do we really get people to think about AI holistically, um, to think about it not just what's the one thing that I'm being pushed to do, what's the one thing that um, seems like I should be doing to thinking about it in a broader space. Um, what are the tools that are out there? What are the implications of the tools? What are different ways of using them, um, and how can I use them to be the leader that I want to be? And so that's really what the Challenge puts together and creates in a way that is intended to be extremely accessible, extremely usable. Um, and just a couple of minutes a day to really build that fluency that we were talking about in the beginning.

Speaker D: That's a great overview and super interesting follow up question related to that. Who is the Challenge targeted to? Do you encourage lawyers other than women to participate in the challenge?

Speaker C: I sure do James. Um, and so do my co creators and everyone around. So one thing to note is um, this challenge is officially under the auspices of the Commission on Women and the center for Innovation, um, of the bigger aba. The Anti Stress Section has been an amazing partner in helping create some of the content. Um, and that came out of the section having this AI task force with a lot of engaged members, um, who Were trying to figure out what are other people doing with AI, what should I be doing with AI? And um, a number of the members of that task force helped create some of the content that goes into this. And that's why this section is officially noted as a partner and contributor to this. Because there really was skin in the game and um, intellectual brilliance that was contributed by people in our section. The other part of who was really involved in doing this, we had an amazing advisory board comprised of uh, people from academia, from nonprofits, from defense firms, plaintiff firms, um, all over, um, some of them not lawyers but technologists and um, ah, adaptive leader specialists around how do we really get people to engage with this type of learning? Um, and so what came out of that was a challenge that really anyone can do. And when I say anyone I mean I made my 10 year old and 13 year old do it. So um, I think that it is for men, for women, for non binary, anyone really that is trying to grapple with. I feel like I should be doing more with AI or I feel like I want to understand more. Um, and I also really see it kind of like when you go to a gym and you can adjust the workout to whatever level you're going in as. So it's made to be very accessible for people that feel like they really, really don't know enough to people that have a lot more experience. But you see these different ways of um, ah, using AI tools, um, that you can level up your game as well along with just different thought points that help you gain broader perspective um, that everyone who has done it has said it's been extremely um, helpful just to feel more deliberate and able to take part in conversations not just using the tools themselves but around policies around how should they be used. And I think that really is the goal because the goal isn't have everyone become AI, native AI first, but to have everyone have enough of an understanding to be part of the conversations around the tools.

Speaker B: Okay. And for those who can't quite visualize what we're talking about, basically what has been created is um, it's a website, um, within the ABA's own website. It's publicly accessible and of course we'll be supplying the link. But um, you can also just search for 21 day AI challenge and you'll probably come uh, across it. And for every day there's m, uh a little bit of description about what the focus will be on for that day, some links and resources, some exercises to perform with your favorite AI ChatGPT or other uh, AI, um, platform. And then you can think about what results you got and um, how it might apply in your own daily life. So it's definitely not just for lawyers, for sure. Now within the field that we're in, antitrust and consumer protection law, and uh, of course within the section, the mission includes data privacy law, those substantive practices. Do think there's a special need for people like us to become AI fluent just because of the nature of our work?

Speaker C: I really do, Alicia. Um, and one of the things that drew me to antitrust in the first place was that it was this opportunity to really dive into the fields that, um, we are, um, advocating for defending against, um, whichever lens we're taking at. I know when I started out, um, I learned more than anyone would ever want to know about fiberglass insulation and false teeth, for example. Um, and I think a lot of the issues that um, are big issues. People are grappling with, um, around market power, information asymmetries, opacity. Who bears the cost of things like algorithmic harm goes to AI, um, and understanding how that actually, um, how it works, how it is used. And part of the thing that makes the challenge more holistic is creating more of this framework that um, allows you to see it from different lenses, um, and different ways in which it could be used and where it could be going. And really, um, the end of the challenge ends with a question, because we're clearly not at the end. And I think one of the things that's interesting around AI is that people who felt they were expert, um, maybe five years ago now we're all saying we're definitely not experts anymore. It's too fast moving for anyone to be an expert at this point, which I think is an opportunity for everyone to really be part of it. But because it has such an impact across all industries, across um, all of these different market forces, participants, um, it really is a benefit for everyone to not just have a conceptual understanding and this theoretical understanding, but really to get down into it. So that as we're counseling clients, as we're also thinking about our professional, um, obligations from an ethical standpoint, um, what does that mean when we're looking at, you know, when we're using these tools in different ways? And whether you're using them or people you're. You're working with, your associates, your partners, your clients, um, understanding what people might be doing with them I think is really critical for us to be operating at the top of our game, but also in a really professionally responsible way. Um, so part of the Goal of this challenge is to do that, and I think no better place than in the antitrust and consumer protection section of the world.

Speaker D: Gabrielle, you've had quite the impressive and diverse range of experience throughout your career. In that experience, what do you think are some of the most useful things that users can take away from doing this challenge?

Speaker C: I think one of the biggest things is that people are in such different places with AI We've got, even with um, people like the members of the antitrust section, where we have so many brilliant people from law students to lawyers and economists. Um, but you have people that are really engaged and yet they could be at very different points in using AI. And I think for some people that may be because of, um, just the challenge of getting started. And I think this really helps with that. Okay, I keep putting it off and there are so many other things that need to get done first. This makes it so manageable. I think the other thing is I need to consider all of the different potential ramifications before I really dive in and use this. And this tries to break that down for you, um, into very manageable pieces. Is so that you feel comfortable making the decision of how am I going to use this? Not being forced into it, not shying away from it, but having more of that calibrated confidence around how am I using this? So I think the most durable takeaway to me really is that idea of helping build towards calibrated confidence and agency so that you then get to decide how am I going to be using this tool and how am I going to be part of the discussions around how it is being used.

Speaker B: Do I have to do the whole 21 days? Everybody is so time starved these days. Can you get, um, benefits from doing just parts of the challenge or maybe even spreading it out over a year, however long it takes?

Speaker C: 100% Alicia. And certainly didn't build the 21 days in 21 days. And um, I don't. I think I know less than a handful of people that actually did it in 21 days. I also know, um, of a number of professors that will pick one or two days and do those in their class and um, people that will use, um, them in team meetings, you know, and pick one or two. So it's very adaptable. You can go through really easy to see what do the um, 21 days really consist of. The first week is really around, you know, kind of getting your feet wet, thinking about things holistically. Second week are different Personas that you can be thinking about. Your, um, AI partners As from coach to marketing, best friend to research, um, assistant, um, and then the last week is really, how do I use this As a leader? A leader of myself, a leader of a team, a leader of a law firm, leader, uh, of the section. Uh, so I think whatever feels like this is going to be useful to me, do that and then see if you want to go do the rest of it. Obviously there's benefits to building towards that.

Speaker B: All right, well, that's good to know. Uh, has anyone been keeping track of how many people have taken all or a portion of the challenge? Uh, have you received any feedback from users?

Speaker C: We received a lot of, um, feedback, um, which has been great because it allows us also to think about how we adjusted new, um, partners that we can partner with who are doing amazing work trying to build AI fluency in other realms. Um, the other thing that's exciting is that we, um, applied for a very large grant, um, through, um, the um, Aspen foundation, um, and have moved forward to the peer review stage of getting that grant, which really allow us to build out more of the technology capabilities, more of the ability to, to capture everyone that goes through that while protecting everybody's privacy and, uh, really doing it in the most responsible way possible, um, but also creating more engagement and ability to connect different people. Because I think the biggest piece of feedback that I've gotten is that people want to have ways to do it with others. And so obviously you can do that with your thumb, with, um, anything that you arrange on your own, with your office, best friend, with your neighbor, whoever that is. Maybe the D.C. bar is doing a grit cohort. Um, the Kentucky Bar is considering that as well. So there are a number of different groups that are using this to create that kind of connection. But we'd love to be able to do that, um, as well as have a much more robust technology infrastructure. This is based on, um, what the ABA has available because we wanted to get it out and really serve the membership. Um, and so the feedback has been positive, um, and we are really looking forward to build on that and eager for more of it for anyone, um, who does participate.

Speaker D: So if people are interested in doing the challenge and they really want to prioritize the things that will get them the most bang for their buck. If we follow the rule of three and you could recommend only three of the exercises, what would they be?

Speaker C: Oh, that's like asking which of my kids would I pick? James? Um, however, for this group I would definitely. I think it's day six that is one of my favorites I'll be honest, because it's around data and research. And I think a lot of us, especially because we're dealing with LLMs with a lot of text, we've used AI to summarize a lot of our massive um, cases that come down, briefings, things like that. Um, and so to me the learnings around oh, I can use it to parse data um, in these different ways was eye opening and really exciting and I feel like my fellow antitrust nerds will really appreciate that as well. So I would recommend that one. Um, and then I really love um, the focus on how can I use this for um, my leadership. And there's not even one specific day that I would point to. I'd say, you know, just scan through and see which one you want to use. Because the other thing about the challenge is that it includes um, really amazing thought leaders in this space. Some of them lawyers, some of them not people like Ethan Mollick that m, a lot of people may have heard of, um, but a lot of others that have done really robust research, um, around leadership, around AI, around data and uh, so we call those out as people that you can follow on LinkedIn or their research things that they're publishing because I think so much of it right now on how do you stay fluent, um, ah, is figuring out who to follow, who are good voices that have interesting information and then you know, going down the chain, um, and I think on the leadership side it's been immensely helpful to me just to be able to prepare for challenging conversations with the C suite with um, external um, stakeholders preparing for pitches for all kinds of things where you know, a lot of times you don't have that ability to do that back and forth. And so thinking about, okay, I'm not going to AI for the truth, I'm going uh, to it to prepare myself to be able to be my best um, self when I show up in a certain space. I think is a really incredibly um, useful way to use this tool. And the challenge sets out a number of different ways that we heard from others, um, that they were using it and really wanted to share with the broader community.

Speaker B: Well, it sounds like the resources as part of the challenge, anyone who goes to the website, you'll see there are links to books, there are um, comments from uh, some of the thought leaders in this area. Um, it's a very, very rich set of resources. So I'm m sure it is hard to pick uh, only a couple as your favorites. But I'm not sure it's so dramatic as choosing among your children. Gabrielle, really. Now, final question for me. Um, you know, not a day goes by in the legal profession that we do not see an article or a headline about the misuse and mistakes being made with AI by lawyers who are submitting things to courts. Hallucinated cases, you know, terrible arguments, poorly written, um, you know, really amounting to, uh, you know, almost an abuse of the court system. Um, and with. With no real excuses other than I didn't review it before it went in. Um, is there something in the challenge that can kind of address that problem and get lawyers in particular to think, you know, more clearly about their duty to make sure that what comes out of the AI isn't just total nonsense?

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, very well put, uh, Alicia, in terms of the current situation that, you know, we really do see a lot of, uh, media around, because I think that we're trying to make it a warning sign, right? Like, you have to review what you submit to courts. You should be aware about these hallucinations. And so there are, um, days that are devoted to some of the pitfalls of AI and why is there hallucination? One thing, for example, that a lot of people are not really aware of is that a hallucination is not actually a bug, um, of AI It's a feature of it. And it's never going to be in a state where there's not going to be any hallucination, which should give us a certain degree of job security. We need to remain in the loop, because what we submit actually does need to be, um, factually correct. And so we do have that continuing obligation. Um, but I think, thinking, understanding, what is it that you're dealing with? You're not dealing with a source of truth. You're dealing with a really useful tool that, for a number of different reasons, is going to have these certain results that we need to be aware of as we are practicing and upholding our duties to the court, duties to our clients, um, having our reputation intact around being a lawyer that submits things that can be counted. Um, but I think the other thing is that so much of what I see in terms of those kinds of submissions feels very much like overwhelm. And this is really where the grit and growth mindset part comes in as well, because those are tools to help ground and help deal with some of that pressure of overwhelm and provide perspective. And so I think the entire challenge is built around. This is not, um, Actually, the full name is 21 Days of AI, a grit and Growth Mindset. Challenge, because there are many things that are telling you how to use AI and the Grit and Growth mindset part is really how do you stick with it, how do you have the right mindset around it and how do you use this, um, accompanying what I think all of us hope to have as a very ethical and trustworthy practice. And the more that we understand about that, about the tools, the more we can use it. And then we can also decide when not to use it. I think that is just as important as knowing things, uh, that it can do. But when are the times when I really don't want to use it in this case?

Speaker D: Thank you very much. Uh, that's super interesting. Are there any similar related projects in the works either within the Grit and Growth framework or under the ABA center for Innovation more generally?

Speaker C: So I already let the cat out of the bag that, you know, we've got these grants that we're applying for that will hopefully allow us to broaden, expand, um, and continue to iterate on this. Um, the center for Innovation has a wealth of resources around how AI is being used. The kinds of tools that exist, um, so highly recommend checking them out. Um, there are different things like an AI Summit coming up in May. Um, um, that is being done through the center for Innovation. Um, so it's one of a broader toolset, toolkit of different, um, offerings to help everyone really meet the moment that we're in in this time of um, a lot of noise. Um, but hopefully what the center for Innovation mission and women, this challenge can do is provide some signal, um, so that it does allow you to um, lean into the moment in a way that is most aligned and helpful.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Gabrielle. That's been a great introduction to this 21 day challenge and listeners. Again, the link to the webpage will be available on the episode webpage for this episode. Or you can just uh, enter 21 day AI grit and growth mindset challenge into your search engine and uh, hopefully it will pop up. It is on the American Bar association, uh, website, so please check it out. Stay tuned also for the new enhanced version that may come out in the next couple of years if uh, that grant comes through. Gabrielle, before we let you go, we'd like to do something we do with all of our guests which is to get to know you a little bit better as a person, uh, outside of your professional life. So can you tell us something interesting or unusual about yourself that has nothing to do with your work?

Speaker C: Yes. So, um, I've shared with a couple of people lately but my current passion is ballet, which I never did as a child or, um, until the last six months. Um, and I have found it to be an absolutely delightful practice. That is the one thing that I do where I only focus on that and don't have antitrust and AI and other things going on in my head because otherwise my very strict French teacher yells at me and I tend to fall over. So, um, I have been really leaning into that, enjoying that. Um, you also get to wear lovely pink ballet shoes. So many benefits, um, but not something that, um, relates to my professional life in any other way.

Speaker B: Well, I've done adult ballet once a week for over 20 years, so welcome to the club. And yes, it's a great thing to do for yourself. So keep it up. Uh, and then the final thing we'd like to do is play a little game we call the Curious Hat.

Speaker A: And now it's time for the Curious Hat.

Speaker B: The. The rules of the game are very simple. I'm going to ask James to draw a random surprise question out of our virtual hat. So take it away, James.

Speaker D: I picked my favorite number, which is the number seven. And the number leads to a question that's very fitting and appropriate for this episode focused on learning and self improvement. The question is, tell us about a teacher who had a major influence on you.

Speaker C: Oh, I love this, James. Seven is also my favorite number because it happens to be my birthday number, so appreciate pulling that. One teacher who had a huge influence on me, um, was my third and fourth grade teacher. I grew up in Germany, so she was, um, German American. So she was kind of like the Miss Frizzle of Berlin, Germany, um, at the time where she would take us on adventures and she would make garlic popcorn for some reason, um, at least once a week, and then teach us something that was far outside of the realm of what third and fourth graders usually are learning and maybe where my initial love of, uh, nerdy things, um, originated.

Speaker B: Did you say garlic popcorn?

Speaker C: I sure did, Alicia. Another thing that was very, um, unique and different. Not my favorite at the time, but I think she was cultivating minds and palettes all at the same time.

Speaker B: Wow, that sounds wonderful. I'm glad you were able to give her a shout out.

Speaker D: Uh, yeah, that's fantastic. And I didn't also didn't expect we'd get a magic, uh, school bus reference, but as one of my favorite shows growing up. So really fantastic, uh, with the Ms. Frizzle reference.

Speaker B: Thank you, James, and thank you, Gabrielle, for a wonderful episode. Thank you to listeners. Tune in to next week's Our Curious Amalgam.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of our Cureus Amalgam, a Competition, Consumer Protection, Data Protection and Privacy Law podcast. It is produced and shared around the globe by ABA's antitrust law section. The opinions expressed by the participants in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent their employer or other organizations. If you like what you heard or would like to become a member of the American Bar association, please check out what the Antitrust Section has to offer@ambar.org antitrust. You can learn more about our podcast at our curious amalgam.com if you have comments, suggestions, or podcast ideas, please reach out to us at podcastourcurious Amalgama. Until next time, thank you for listening.