Next Level Careers - Danielle Finn, Director of the Indian Nations Gaming and Governance Program and Associate Professor-in-Residence at UNLV’s William S. Boyd School of Law

Speaker A: Welcome to the Next Level podcast powered by San Manuel, A, uh, series connecting you with the best minds in casino hospitality, tribal government and beyond. Enjoy the show. Hello, everyone. We have a really great episode and session for you today. Joining me is Danielle Finn. She is the director of Indian Nation's Gaming and Governance Program and associate professor in residence at the William S. Boyd School of Law at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Please join me in welcoming Danielle. Hi, Danielle.

Speaker B: Hi, Peter. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Speaker A: We are so excited to have you. Um, I know, like, our paths have crossed many times over the last few years. You're doing such great work and I'm looking forward to, to diving into it. I think everyone's going to love hearing your story. Um, so with that, let's jump into it. Can you give us your 3 minute origin story? You could go longer than 3 minutes if you want, but kind of like, who are you and where you came from and what brought you here today?

Speaker B: Yeah, my three minute origin story. Okay. Uh, Danielle Finn. I'm a citizen of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe. I'm Hunkpapa Lakota, I, Honktawan Dakota and Hohenakota, which means I'm all parts of the Ocehetisha Coe, the Great Sioux Nation of the Northern Plains area. And I got my law degree at Arizona State University's College of Law. Um, I got my LLM in Indigenous Peoples Law Policy from University of Oklahoma. Um, I am a sister, a daughter, a granddaughter, um, a, you know, a big sister to many of my students. I feel like I'm at that level. I'm an aunt. I'm, I'm all sorts of things. I have many, many titles and caps. But I think, uh, the most important thing, and it's kind of like a Lakota virtue, is just being a good relative. So I try my best to be a good relative. And that's kind of just my quick origin story. I am interested in law, and I've always been interested in law. Since I was really little. I used to watch Cops and Law and Order on the tv and I was like, I could do this someday. And that's kind of how I got into the legal field. Um, my dad was also a police officer in Rapid City, South Dakota. I grew up in the Dakotas. I'm, um, the daughter of a New, uh, Yorker. He's from Brooklyn and he's Irish. And then my mom is a citizen of Standing Rock and she's from North Dakota. Um, but I think that's my quick origin story. I'm full of interesting facts. I'm certified scuba diver. Um, I love to ski and snowboard. I try to stay active in whatever I do. But, um, my love right now, my love of life is educating the next generation of attorneys.

Speaker A: That is fantastic. Thanks for sharing that with us. And there's a lot to unpack there. And we're going to talk about some of those things here in the next 40, uh, five minutes or so.

Speaker B: Question.

Speaker A: Um, for you. At what point did you realize that your education and the work that you were going to do could, um, have a direct impact, real world impact in governance and tribal nations and gaming enterprises? Is, was that always your. When you started to study law? Was that, did you begin with that in mind or like, what kind of. At what point did you realize that's this is the direction I want to go?

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, so I think it was early on, uh, you know, even through childhood, uh, and I had, uh, you know, a grandparent on tribal council, uh, an uncle that was tribal chair for so long. And I got to see firsthand the little help that they had, legal, uh, assistance. Um, and I remember hearing, you know, my mom in the kitchen being like, where are the attorneys? Like, why don't we have somebody helping us? And I, I, as I got older and older, I would see that we didn't have, um, we didn't retain counsel or we would only have one. And they were overworked and over utilized and overwhelmed. And I always thought, well, if that's just my tribal nation, what about the others? And so as I grew up and I got into the, the world of tribal government more as a professional, I saw there's not enough, uh, attorneys that are helping tribal nations and we need them in all areas. And so I went into law school myself, um, and even then I looked around the room and there was not many, uh, law students. And ASU is known as the one that has the most like native law students. And even then I would be in sections where I was one or two and that was it. And that data really shows that that's actually the truth. Like the American Bar association came out in 20, um, so just four years ago that they said of the 1.3 million attorneys in the United States, uh, less than 0.4% are Native American. And that means less than 3,000 people, uh, of the attorneys are Native American. And so one of the 3,000, um, we need more than that. And I, and I've always known that since I was little and it was at that, like, moment when I started realizing, oh, this data is recognizing like what I'm seeing, um, and I was like, we, we need to do something about that. And that's kind of where I really shifted my career from, um, being, you know, in governance. I've, I still retained my position as a tribal judge, um, but I also. So I moved out of practice and now I'm in academia and now I'm teaching the folks that I need to help our communities the most. And so, um, that's why, I guess that's where I realized that my, my work has a direct real world impact, is that, um, now I'm creating the bodies that I've the need for. And um, I think that's extremely important. And we just need, uh, more people that get into tribal nations and tribal gaming.

Speaker A: And so I love how you mentioned that it was, it was influence from your family early on. And in some cases, some folks may not have that exposure to that, to those conversations. So if you, if there happens to be a listener out there right now who is in a tribe that may not have exposure to, uh, an attorney or someone who's thinking through sort of some of the legal issues that you were, you were present for in the room with your, with your family and leadership, what would you say to them? How, what, you know, uh, what kind of inspiring words could you give them to encourage them to pursue it? Because, I mean, when you think to Your point, only 0.4% attorneys are native American. So that's very daunting, right? I mean, when you hear that, you almost feel like the odds are stacked against me. So what kind of words of encouragement could you give to those who are maybe thinking about it, or maybe your words today is going to inspire them to go. What sort of words of encouragement would you give them?

Speaker B: Oh, gosh, um, so many different words of encouragement, I guess. Um, one thing, um, you know, is, is, I mean, have the awareness, look around in your community and see like, what can be improved and how it can be improved. Start with that process. Because oftentimes things at even the lowest level can be improved, but they will need some sort of assistance from like, the legal side. Um, I think there's just so many words of advice. People in the communities, depending upon whatever community you come from, um, uh, for. For Native people, um, I. Education is extremely powerful for all people. You should all keep learning every day of your life. Education is such an asset. Um, my grandparents used to always say to me that, uh, education is your bow, your arrow and your Shield, which is a very Lakota way or framework of looking at education. It's the thing that's going to protect you, your community, um, and the things that matter to you. But also it can be your weapon and it can be your attack. And, um, you need that especially for your community because you never know who's going to come at you from different ways or how they're going to come at you. So, um, I also think first for young people, um, be the person that is taking the initiative that no one asked you to do something. Initiative is such a big thing to stand out. And it's like the rarest resource or source that I see in organizations. Be the student who sends emails and questions everything. Um, be the student that, uh, requests feedback for no reason. Because even if you think, oh, yes, I got it, um, request feedback because you could learn something even from that feedback. Um, I think in the world, especially in the legal realm, um, competence is expected, but initiative is really remembered. And so I, um, know when I was younger, I would take the initiative. Like, I didn't just recognize that my mom was saying this in the kitchen. I would just sit there and listen, uh, and be aware. And then I was like, well, how do I fix this? Like, what is going to happen? Like, what do we need? And that's kind of how I would start asking questions and I would start trying to figure things out. And, um, I think that initiative is really what kind of drove me into this field, but also could drive anybody into a great field. Um, but initiative is really important.

Speaker A: So having had that history and then also now you're working with students on a daily basis. So you're, you're seeing the next wave of legal scholars and leaders and attorneys coming out. Um, are you seeing, are you seeing that the traditional skills required for this role is the same? Or do you see skills kind of evolving? Or there are new sets of skills that the younger generation could maybe perhaps go, wow, I'm seeing this kind of migrate this way and to be better prepared, shoring up on new skills that weren't so needed before. Is there any sort of observations like that since you've kind of, you're still not kind of, you're, you're heavily involved in the, in, in teaching and coaching and mentoring the, the next wave. But also you just went through it yourself and have the real world experience. Is there any sort of insights into that?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I think, I think I'm at the perfect, perfect point in my career where I come from, uh, some of the generation uh, that didn't have a lot of things. Uh, they didn't have access to Google, they didn't have cell phones. Um, I kind of grew up a little bit in that era and then now I'm in the era of um. You know, they, they've had cell phones since they were little and they've had access to Google and Now they have A.I. um, and so I'm at this pinpoint in my career where I look at both sides and I see everything. But I think um, the skills and mindsets that like the next generation absolutely needs is digital fluency. And it's, it just, it's such an important thing. You absolutely need it. It's um, it's going to be the biggest mover and shaker for the, for, for the next. I don't even know how many years. But um, I also think uh, the next generation of, of leaders need to have um, the ability to hold firm in their identity. So over time in history, um, especially with Native people, but other, other groups across the United States, um, you know, their, their identity has been uh, moved and shifted, uh, based off of policies and based off of business and have whatever it might be. But this next generation is going to have to hold firm in their identity of who they are. Um, because investors will come at them, not always with great intentions. Uh, leaders who are insecure, uh, in who they are and what sovereignty means to them could uh, be making concessions that might not, that can't be undone. So I think that they need to hold firm in who they are and remember the history and, and really what it means to them to be who they are and their people who they are because challenges will be ahead. Um, but I definitely think digital fluency, AI, um, things of that nature are what the skills that are needed and then the mindset is to make sure to remember who you are.

Speaker A: You bring up a great point there. You know, understanding where you came from and bringing that forward with you as you gain these new skills and always remembering that so you can bring that back to your people. That's just, that's so powerful. Um, now the term governance kind of is kind of scary for some, for some folks and they really don't kind of understand maybe in the beginning how that kind of ties to, from classroom to reality to their personal communities that um, at their tribal communities. How do you help the generation that's coming in that may not be directly exposed to governance? And it's a big scary kind of topic sometimes. How do you help them navigate through that as Part of the programs that you're involved in, um, how do you help them kind of navigate that so that they can learn and process and help their community move forward in governance.

Speaker B: So, um, I think, you know, governance is, is the strength of, of the community. So good governance is going to lead to good policy and good community members, and, um, health and welfare and safety is, Is all going to be great if you have good governance. It's just the backbone of everything. Um, and I think that I would tell the next generation to not be SC good governance because, um, strong governance is just powerful. Um, I always say, like, when you look at, um, tribes across the United States and you look at their gaming operations, I specifically am always looking at, well, what is this tribal casino doing? Um, strong governance is not always loud governance. It's usually really quiet. It's, uh, something that they know is working in the background. And, um, a tribal casino that is thriving, um, usually has really strong governance behind it. Um, the casino doesn't save the tribe. It's the governance structure that does. And I think it's just the importance of why a tribal community, why an elected body, why this governance structure is powerful. And so I would tell that next generation, um, get involved with the governance. Learn the governance side, learn the ins and outs. Do they have a court system? Do they have their legislative body? Who's on their executive branch, who's on the team? Learn everything you can about the governance structure and how it operates because that's what's going to make a difference and really, um, show you how things can move forward. So, yeah, that would be a little bit about what I believe in, strong governance.

Speaker A: And so, like at a recent conference I was attending, uh, recently the topic of AI came up and, um, AI and specifically is tied to governance. Right. And there were some tribal communities represented in the room that were saying, you know, we don't have the resources to have out, you know, outside resources come in and educate us on all of the potential pitfalls that we need to consider as we consider our governance in AI what. What could you say to. To those who are in the middle of trying to put their arms around governance? To your point, right? It's like how you. AI is so new, but it could also be so scary and risky that it could pose a threat. I mean, overnight everything could disappear. If you're not. If you literally disappear, it could be. Evaporate in front of you. What sort of tips could you give to those who are maybe in the. In the thick of it or at the beginning of discussing how to approach the new world of technology like AI and setting up a governance structure like where you begin. Especially if you don't have the resources, unlimited resources that some, some tribes have because they're successful operations, be it in a casino or other, um, enterprises. Do you have any thoughts on how you could begin sort of that process with something new? Uh, like that?

Speaker B: Yeah, education. Uh, so reach out, um, and ask questions to anybody and everybody. But you can always reach out to the Indian Nations Gaming governance program at UNLV's William S. Boyd School of Law. And we will point you in the direction of resources, um, whether it might be webinars or training materials or companies that maybe, um, could, could assist a tribal nation, uh, with their AI development. Um, but beyond that, um, getting out and very much like you said, you're at a conference, go out and listen to what other folks are doing, uh, because that practical knowledge is so, so important. Right? We can talk about, um, education and theory and how I teach in a classroom with PowerPoints and I lecture and um. But getting out and learning from folks like you pet, um, are in the thick of it, um, is the most important thing. Um, I would also just advise, uh, those leaders and the next generation, don't be scared. Um, I think we need to have the mindset and you know that this is something new, but this is something that we can harness and we can learn it and we can champion it. Um, and I think another thing is, um, I often see it on the web that you know, the AI is hurting the environment and it's hurting all these things. It's. You always need to look at the um, specific companies. Right? Not all AI is created equally, just like everything else in the world. So look at uh, who's behind AI, what company you're supporting, uh, what's going on and how it's being used. Of course, um, because you want to use it ethically. But um, don't be, don't be scared of it. Um, and I think truly tribal leaders and the next generation won't be scared of it because um, I always think our people are the most fast adapting people. In the United States. Native people went from, in a hundred years just uh, absolutely being able to navigate a new culture, a new system faster than most people can. Europe, um, was you know, around for thousands and thousands of years acting the same way. But then when it came over to the United States, Native people adapted so fast. So I know our people will adapt really quickly, uh, to digital fluency and we will hopefully champion it and be on the edge of the progress.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great point. Adaptability is key in being able to kind of use all of these resources. Thanks for pointing it out. I never knew that about the UNLV program. So I hope the listeners that listen, I mean, I learned something new. And if you're out there and you're curious about how do you get started or what resources, just reach out to Danielle. And I had no clue that you offered that. So that's a awesome, awesome, uh, thing to share with everyone. Um, so kind of talking about that, though, I feel like, based on your responses that you feel like there's a responsibility for you to carry, uh, and help the next wave of leaders come out of the program. What sort of responsibilities do you feel the educators specifically carry? I think most people just assume educators are responsible for teaching, you know, their students. And it's, that's only part of it, right? I mean, teaching is just one aspect of it. What other things? When you think about your career and education and what you give back to your students, beyond the teaching aspect of it, what other responsibilities do you carry?

Speaker B: So I love the word responsibility so much. Um, that's another quote, Peter, that comes to mind. Uh, in Lakota we say oyate ki ni PI kita cha lichem, which means I do it so my people live. It's that inherent responsibility for all of us to, to do it so the rest of us kind of can, can thrive. And that's like the quote that I live by. Every day when I wake up, I remember I'm saying, away at the kini picacho leh, I do it so my people live. And it's that responsibility. And I carry it very much like you said, through teaching. Um, so at the cross of academia and industry or practical experience. Right. Um, they both need each other. And at our law school, we are very much on that, that edge, that cutting edge belief that we need honest academics. That means you're, you're getting the PowerPoints, you're getting the knowledge, you're getting the theory, but then you're also getting the experience because you need that practice. Practice without theory is just repetition. Ah, theory without practice is just ridiculous. It's arrogance. Um, so I think the best way to frame it, um, is that you, you need to practice what you're learning. And, um, if you don't, then there's going to be tons and tons of problems. I, uh, always think of like, Indian gaming and where you're at, Peter. And I know you Know this, but um, the. It's. How do you do Indian gaming? Right? Um, you're making business decisions every day. I know you make this decision every day, Peter, but almost always those are also legal and sovereignty decision. So you're looking at it from different frameworks. And a general manager who doesn't understand, you know, the law, Indian Gaming Regulatory act, that's a liability. A tribal council member though, on the governance side who can't read a compact is kind of flying blind. They need to know what's going on. So I always push my students to kind of hold both simultaneously. You need to know the rigor of doctrine, but also you need to have the implementation skills. Um, at our law school we, we constantly take them on, uh, different experiences. Experiential learning is very important. So we take them into uh, the areas they need to, to know whether that's the courtroom, that's a tribal casino. Um, that's a m room where we're doing wills, trust and estate planning with elders. Um, we're doing it all because you have to give them, um, both points. This, this uh. It's our obligation, our responsibility to ensure that they're ready to practice and they're ready to do it. Um, well.

Speaker A: And so the program at UNLV is. It's a, it's a relic. When you uh, when you think about the history of the, of the institution, it's relatively new and so uh, having. And I see a lot of the activities you guys are doing and I love it because you're getting it out there front and presence. Have you found that the general student community and population has formed uh, more of an awareness of uh, sort of the issues in Native country and um, are they, you know, kind of inquisitive? Are you finding that the overall total, it's having impact beyond just the program or, you know, what kind of experiences and learnings do you have there year?

Speaker B: Ah, absolutely, yes. So the program was uh, founded in 2020 thanks to a large gift from the Hobby Tom of Samuel Nation. And um, you know, the charge was to, to get folks interested at the law school in, in Indian gaming and governance. And uh, within the past three years that I've been on board, I can tell you that it has grown. And it was originally just a handful. Now we have, have almost 40 plus students in the program, um, that are all very soon to be attorneys. And with these legal minds in the universe, they are there to defend and protect, uh, and uphold tribal sovereignty. And um, it's a beautiful thing truly. And um, When I think about it, how did it grow? Um, it really grew with, um, just basic things like talking to students one on one saying, hey, I think you should take. I think you should take my class. And uh, then I would say, I think you should take this class. And I would pull people in. And then soon they were like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna bring my friends. And um, one thing to just an example that I think is just absolutely wonderful is we, uh, do the tribal law practicum, which is an alternative spring break course where we take the students to Yahaviatan, where they get to meet with the great folks, uh, there. And they get to meet with tribal, uh, leadership, governance structure. Um, and then those, those that are championing the. The gaming, like you, Peter, and they come away from that trip just absolutely impressed and absolutely astounded at what can be built and what can go on and how they can be a part of it. They didn't think that they could be a part of something like this, uh, be a part of, um, you know, something that's meaningful, truly. And um, so when I interview the students afterwards and I get their course evaluations, they all tell me, I never thought this was a career path for me, but I 100% see what I could do now and how this could be such a benefit to a people, um, to employees, to everyone. Uh, this is a benefit to everybody. And so I think that the impact is completely measurable just in the three years that I've been here. And um, honestly, it's an inspiration. I think that this is, is. It's beautiful for me to see the next generation of young legal minds just getting out there, excited about, um, helping. Helping Native people, helping our people.

Speaker A: That is amazing. And uh, that's a lot of work, by the way, to get that going. Um, so can you talk to us a little bit about how do you balance all of this? M. You mentioned scuba diving, but I'm guessing you're not doing that on a weekly, right? I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. And you, you are, um, that's probably a vacation a few times a year type thing. Beyond scuba diving, is there any other sort of, you know, how do you unwind and stay grounded and then, you know, recharge your batteries? Is there anything in particular that you enjoy doing?

Speaker B: Oh, yes, there is so much. I am, um, a. An avid dancer still. Um, so I still powwow, dance and competitively do that. Um, I think, I think, um, I get massages regularly. Self care is a big thing. And I'm all about self care and try to make sure that the students see that I'm taking care of myself so that they take care of themselves down the road, um, and have a great example. But I really believe that when I come back to the culture, like I said, I wake up every day and I say, oyatiki ni ka ta cha lechem. I do it so my people live. That's my reminder to keep going every day. So your cultural values are. For me, at least, that's how I center myself. That's how I, um, I recharge, I keep going. Um, I stay connected to my community. I think that's really important, that whole remember where you come from thing. Sure. I'm a Lakota that lives in Las Vegas, but I still keep in touch every day with my people back home. So that's calling my cousins, calling my friends, calling elders, calling all of the grandmas and grandpas. Um, I call everybody and I talk to them. Because that, uh, connection, that relationship is still who I am, fundamentally. And I want to make sure that, you know, jobs can come and go, truly. And, um. But your people will always be there for you. And I. I really believe that my culture is what centers me. So I go home, I dance, um, and I. I do everything possible to stay connected. So that's kind of where I try to balance the work life. Um, but truly, I don't feel like I'm working most days because. Because I love what I do, and I love the students, and I love all of the people at this law school. I have a great dean. Dean Grunwald is fantastic. You can't have a good program if you don't have a good leader. And she's someone who pushes me out there, and I can't thank her enough. So good support is also there for me. So I don't feel like I'm working most days.

Speaker A: Isn't that great when you found your passion? I mean, it sounds like you found your passion. It's evident in the way you speak and how you talk about what you're doing, that it's. It's really, truly in here and in your. In your heart and coming out. And that's so. That's so beautiful. Um, for those who are seeking, you know, there's people that are trying to get their careers going and trying to find that. That passion that you found. Um, what do you say to them? I mean, I. You've mentioned some great things already. Is there anything you haven't mentioned? Yet maybe perhaps, uh, a real world experience that you encourage them if they don't already have it. Try this. It could be in tribal gaming, maybe not. But is there anything for those trying to find their way and everyone's journey is different. How do you uh, walk them through this?

Speaker B: That, yeah, I tell them always to go with what you like, what do you love? Um, and that can be anything and everything. So I just. This is so great that you asked this question, Peter, because I was just a, ah, student needed help on their personal statement, their, for their law admissions essay. Um, and they were like, what do I write about? And I was like, well, write about what you love. What do you love? Um, and why is that important to you? And that's really how I think you find yourself and is what do you love? Um, do you love, you know, dubstep music? Do you love, um, you know, cooking? Do you. What do you love? And then go from there and you can find out what career path because you should love what you do, do what you love. Um, because that's what's going to be a part of your life for so much of your life. So find something that you are passionate about and then from there start, start analyzing it. Okay. What could I do in that career that I love? Um, or why do I love it so much? And how it could be related to another field, um, that you could yourself in. So if there's a time where you feel like you need direction, always go back to what you love because that's what's going to point you in a good direction. And for me, as you can tell, I really love my people and I love, I love my community. So this is how I serve them and I feel so good about it.

Speaker A: That's fantastic. And I think very great advice. I oftentimes get. People come in and, and they want to talk about, you know, they're hoping, I think that I give them, do these five things and you'll move on in your career. And I think they're taken aback sometimes when I go, well, what do you want? You know? And they go, what do you mean what I want? I want a promotion. Like, no, no, no, really, what do you want? You know, and then I expect I go, I don't want to hear the answer now because that would mean you didn't give it thought. I go, go and take some time and, and think about it and on your time you'll know when you have the answer come back and then we'll talk about it. And then the next Step of your journey I think will make more sense rather than. I oftentimes find that, you know, a promotion or a title, that's a construct that somebody else created. That may not be what you want. Right. So don't chase someone else's kind of vision. Chase yours. But until you ask yourself that question, you don't know. Right. So that sounds just like what you're saying.

Speaker B: Well, I also think, too, they did the right thing. They came to you. Peter, I think mentors are extremely important. And so they're obviously, you know, when they come to you, they're seeking mentorship. And I think mentors give you knowledge, they give you direction. They can't tell you the answers, um, you know, and, and help you with, you know, every opportunity in your life. But mentors, they can totally, you know, help in, in different ways. So I think, think that's important with the step that they took is important. Always seek people who have interesting careers or seek out people, ask questions. I know, um, I'm very open. Peter's very open to people coming up and asking questions and us trying to help find directions and, and places and ways to help folks. But, um, that was good that they, they approached you. I would say that's a good step for sure.

Speaker A: It is. It's. It's courageous. And, um, you know, I try to tell them it's okay, you can breathe, you know, everything's fine. I'm not, I'm not a scary guy, you know, um, they don't believe me sometimes. But, uh, but, you know, I, I like it when, when they understand that, look, we're just two people talking. I'm here to help. Um, now being. That being said, are there misconceptions you find that people may have about, you know, what you do? Like, you know, ah, when you have students maybe coming into the program or inquiring, do you find, like, there's a common misconception or, you know, things that you need to clarify that you maybe you want to share with the listeners today that you can help maybe clarify that for them as well?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I think the biggest misconception is that, um, tribal gaming is kind of less, um, than commercial gaming or they think of, you know, Las Vegas casinos as better than tribal casinos. And I'm always like, whoa, full stop. Let's talk about this. This. Um, I always say they are completely equal. In fact, you know, as we know, the industry is pretty split in the United States. It's tribal gaming, commercial gaming, stuff like a 50, 50 split there. Um, and they're powerful. I was like, have you let me take you to a resort called Yamava. It's, it's five stars. This thing is amazing. You know, it rivals better than those in Las Vegas. And so I tell everybody, like, you know, that's the first misconception, like, whoa, let's change that. This because they're powerful. And I always say that, um, tribal gaming oftentimes has better and higher standards than commercial gaming. Uh, and so that's the first misconception. And then on the governance side, they usually think that uh, the governance structures are in the dark ages, that uh, tribal leaders or tribal council members, um, are, you know, still, still writing with uh, with pencils and papers. And I'm like, no, uh, our, our leaders are, are so intelligent. They are, they have been for years and, and years and generations. We all have this seven generation mindset. You might think that we're just in a meeting sitting there. Um, but really our people. And I know I'm speaking for myself, I think seven generations ahead, I'm thinking, well, how is this going to affect people down the road when I leave my position or um, things of that nature? So I always think those are the two misconceptions. Is the governance that we're kind of still as tribes in kind of the dark ages or the, the older ages, um, and that we are not capable of progress in every way, but then also that our gaming is less than. And I'm like, no, not at all. Um, we are powerful in each realm. Governance and gaming, those are just the biggest misconceptions.

Speaker A: Yeah, I find it interesting. I was just looking at, um, there was an industry report that comes out every six months or so that details the number of slot machines, um, by category. Right. And the total number of slot machines in tribal gaming is actually greater than commercial gaming. As of like I think it was February when the last report came out and I found that interesting. Wow, look at that. It's actually more by slot machine count. Right. So you could take all the, you know, opinions out of it. The fact, that's the fact. I mean assuming that, that you know, I'm taking this report as, as fact. Um, that's the best data I have and that demonstrates over time and you can see over time the increase is coming. And so uh, I kind of chuckle when I hear that as well. Um, I also uh, find it kind of ah, difficult to explain because they don't understand it when I mentioned that we as the business. I think people hear seven generations and they think, think that, that only applies to the government. Um, but no, we are also invited to think in that way for the business. Um, it's business. But at the same time, this is to support a community and have a community, tribal community, thrive for many, many, many years. After we leave as staff, we're just here visiting as visitors. And so to have that thought process of how do you apply generational thinking to business is foreign to folks. And that's a really great point that you made. That's the lens that you look at it even in your program. So, um, I think that's a fantastic insight. Um, uh, let's talk a little bit about your scuba now. Yeah, I mean, I was very curious. I wrote that down. How did you get into scuba? What was sort of, uh, what was sort of the inspiration there? How did you discover that activity?

Speaker B: I was in law school. And I, um, won't lie, peter. Reading, reading 100 plus pages every day of law really can do something to the brain. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I need a break. Um, I need to learn something else. And I can't learn it from a book. And so I thought, well, what can it be? And, um, I think it was just fate. It was like an ad that popped up on my social media and it was like, come learn scuba diving. And I thought, why not? And so on every Saturday and Sunday morning for a couple weeks, I would go to the pool and I'd get all suited up and I would learn every part of, of scuba diving. Um, and then from there, I just fell in love with it. I mean, water is so interesting and so peaceful. We use it every day. It's a part of our body. Um, but I think being submerged in it and then having to remain calm when you're that so many feet down, um, it's peaceful. But it's also kind of challenging because you have to problem solve. Like if water gets in your goggles, you have to flood it with, with what? Your, your app, your breathing apparatus. Like, there's so many intricacies to scuba diving. Um, but it's peaceful and, um, it makes you appreciate water even more. Um, but also it's so fun. It's great exercise and I, you know, you can scuba dive so many places. I'll be honest, I've never scuba dived anything that interesting yet, Peter. I've done like, lakes and rivers, um, nothing like the Galapagos yet or anything. I can't wait to do that someday. But, um, and it's definitely something that I needed to go away from law school. Um, and that was my way. And now I just, I love it. I'm still doing it.

Speaker A: Well, that's great. And I think that just kind of speaks to sort of your curiosity and you're like, oh, I saw this on my feed. I'm going to go for it. And despite it being challenging, you just jump right into it. Now you mentioned, uh, you haven't. I was going to ask you the follow up question was what was your favorite dive spot? But it looks like that you, you're aspiring to, to dive the Galapagos. Is Galapagos on your number one on your list or is there another.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Spot.

Speaker B: No, that's the number one for sure. I think so. Yep. Um, like that or. Well, like, I know the Great Barrier Reef. That's a big, that's a big one. But, um, I think. Yeah, I've never been to Hawaii yet, Peter.

Speaker A: I know.

Speaker B: This is wild. I know. Never, um, been to Hawaii. That's on my bucket list. And I think doing Hawaii would be cool. But the most interesting is just like the, off the shore of, off the shore of California in the ocean. Um, things like that. There's nothing too, too extreme. When I tested, they took me to this lake in Arizona called Lake Surprise. And there's no surprises in that lake.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker B: It's very boring and safe. Which is why I think they take students there to do their, their scuba testing. Um, but yeah, so that's kind of. Have you been, are you scuba certified, Peter? Have you been event scuba diving?

Speaker A: I have not. Scoop. I'm not scuba certified. Ice. Um, I don't want to say I snorkel. I snorkel while on vacation from time to time. Let's just say that I'm like vacation casual snorkeler. And uh, but I do, I, I find snorkeling to be fun. But when you get to a certain depth, you know, I, to your point, it's not easy to remain calm. So that's why I've never taken the leap to scuba. Because I'm like, I'm not certain I can, uh, I can be calm at that, you know, certain, uh, if I go deeper than what a snorkel can get you. Um, so I don't know. You know, it's in the back of my mind, I think about it and when you mention scuba, uh, I'm like, you know, for a split second I thought maybe I should do it. Then I started thinking, oh, my God, then what am I going to do when you can't See anything, you know, and all you see is the light up top. I mean, that's gotta, that's, uh, gotta be tough.

Speaker B: Yes. It's fun, though. It is really fun. It's challenging, but fun in a good way. You, I think you would like it. I think you like challenging and fun, so you should try it, Peter.

Speaker A: Okay, I'll write it down. I'll write it down. Um, okay, so we're coming to the end of the show here. Do you have three tips that you could provide to anyone who would want to take their career to the next level?

Speaker B: The first is the initiative. Always take the initiative. Like I said, I think that's the most important thing that you should do early in your career. Um, take initiative, uh, reach out and build relationships. Relationships, I think, are extremely key. If you are good at building relationships, that means you are full of other great skills like communicating and listening and understanding. Um, so initiative, building relationships, and staying grounded. I guess as we've wrapped up this, this whole conversation, I think that's the biggest thing that has made me, uh, who I am. And I, I feel I'm successful in where I've been in life. And I think, um, staying grounded is, is, is a, the number one thing, whether that's spending time with family, your culture, um, with the earth, water, um, what have you. I think staying grounded, taking the initiative, and building relationships, those are my three advice for someone.

Speaker A: Well, that's, that is fantastic. Danielle, thank you for sharing all of that with us today. Um, I think, you know, one of the big takeaways I had related to staying grounded was earlier when you described that, you know, your perspective that the law could be your bow, arrow and shield. I think staying grounded to who you are and where you came from, that just kind of, of wraps it all into your line of, uh, your line of work and how you help the next generation succeed. And we really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your perspectives with us. Um, thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Check out more episodes@thenextlevelcareers.com.