Why most FMCG marketing is wasted with Mark Curry

Speaker A: More to Marketing welcome to More to Marketing, the podcast that explores marketing, product, business and everything in between. I'm your host Susan Walsh and today we are talking about how money foundations help everyday. Um, help everyday marketers make great decisions and in particular how you can actually look at what you're doing and, and make it make better sense and you don't have to be traditional about it. I'm very excited today because I have Mark Curry. Now, Mark is an Aussie and he is the founder of Savvy. Now I've got to say, if you haven't seen Savvy, you definitely have to check out the drinks aisle to check out what these are because these actually sound amazing. And I have to say I'm going to putting an order in right after this as well if not finding them in my local shops. It. What is it? It is a brand that has quietly challenged the FMCG M marketing and what is supposed to be done but not doing it that way. Which I'm very excited about. Talking to him now, his path has been anything but normal. He actually started out as a corporate lawyer and hated it. And because of this, while he was there he decided to do a complete different pivot because he had a passion, he found. He started studying nutrition and launched Savvy in 2016 as Australia's first nootropic beverage brand. He'll tell us all about what that means in a moment. What began in Byron Bay markets has grown into a business now stocked in over 700 stores across Australia and New Zealand, plus also a whole giant pile of corporate deliveries as well to add to those numbers. But here's what makes Mark's story more relevant and interesting for today. He didn't scale by following those traditional FMCG playbook rules. While most brands in this category doubled down on paying a huge amount of money for paid media or being retail driven growth, he actually chose that very different rule. He decided to follow his own rules and be more deliberate about choosing what he did. Now telling a bit more about Mark. He is an honorary fellow at UTS Business School and UTS Law where he studied and connected and loves to continue to be connected to the startup ecosystem. In this conversation today, we're going to be unpacking all those things about fmcg, what worked best and what tips Mark can share for us. Particularly, um, not using the usual channels and how you can work smarter, not harder when it comes to marketing, when you're actually passionate about it and you want to build something amazing. Hi Mark.

Speaker B: Hi Susan. Thanks so much for that introduction. It's quite glowing.

Speaker A: Uh, you made it very, very easy. I love it. And I have to also say, what awards have you won? Do you want to plug those as well?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, so we're the most awarded, uh, nutrition company in Australia at the moment, which is very exciting. We've won 24 separate awards, the most recent of which was the Telstra Best of Business awards. We won, we were in the finals in three categories, uh, for New South Wales. One of them we won. So we were the winner for New South Wales with them onto the finals in Brisbane. They put a lot of money into it. It was an, it was almost like a concert. I brought Savvy, doesn't have a large team, so I brought my wife, my mum and my dad. We're there in our tuxes and our ball gowns and it was a hell of a, hell of an evening. They had us in a five star hotel all week long, prepping for the big night, trying to impress judges. You had to pitch and do all the rest of it. So it was New South Wales takes on Queensland, takes on Victoria, etc. Etc. Um, upsettingly, the gentleman from Western Australia won, but I was the runner up, which was cool. And still, uh, being a small business and getting to that level, when it's a competition where between 20 and 30,000 businesses enter, uh, it's pretty cool to make the finals and win for a state, no uh, matter what size of business you are. And so this is now the second time we did this 2025. Previously we did this in 2023, um, when we were one of the first businesses ever to make it to the finals in a variety of categories. So it's. Yeah, that's probably the most recent large award ceremony is. There's been a few little other bits and bobs, but yeah, it's been quite cool.

Speaker A: No, and it testifies to how different Savvy is in your approach to it. So why don't you tell everyone a bit about you and how Savvy came about and what Savvy is as well, of course.

Speaker B: Ah, so Savvy is a nootropic brand. Um, nootropic is a, ah, word that means we use ingredients that have benefits for the way your brain functions and works. I know that sounds like a lot, but obviously it comes in ways that are practical and useful. So you're not going to have a product and feel like Einstein overnight. However, you might find you have less of those tip of the tongue moments that day. Your memory is a little bit better. Your verbal fluency is a little bit better. You realize those conversations went a little bit more than you wanted to. You focus for a little bit longer. What would often trigger you and be quite a stressful or anxiety provoking experience. You handle it with a little bit more finesse. So again, um, that's the kind of idea of how it works. In the same way that if you were to consider people in the physical realm and you took two athletes and said, okay, I give you six months to get in shape and one athlete was allowed to optimize their nutrition protocol, creatine and all these other different supplements and good high levels of protein. The other person didn't, um, unsurprisingly, the one who is utilizing supplements would have a much stronger physical. So savvy is that but for the mental. So how I came across it in the first place was when I was finishing the high school and I learned about the idea of there's particular ingredients out there. I didn't yet know the name nootropic that might help uh, with your mental capacity. And so for me in year 11 and year 12, that was extremely exciting. I could do more homework in less time, giving more time to spend with my friends and do what I wanted to do. But also it meant that I could also double down when I was studying for those final year 12 exams. Taking products that were natural, that were scientifically, sorry, at a scientific dose that would help out with different aspects of memory or function seemed like an obvious thing to do. So that's where my interest began. And then I continued on with university in the same way. And then I continued to learn more and more about these. And then eventually I ended up in uh, Australia's largest commercial law firm. And when I was in there, everyone is, uh, extraordinarily gifted because we pump out, or at least we did at the time. More lawyers as graduates than there are available jobs. So they can be very picky and choosy. Uh, I did, I wasn't just uh, my grades luckily because otherwise I probably wouldn't have gotten the job. I did a few other things while I was at university, um, which was basically just to almost hedge my chances of getting one of the good jobs. So I did competitions in negotiation, client interview, and I was lucky enough to win some of those. So having some like medals was helpful. And then also writing uh, particular um, essays that I did particularly well at and deciding to make them even bigger and longer and put them in the law journal. So things like that. So Anything I could to try and, uh, stand out. Yeah. Kind of bolster that resume. And so that worked to get into the actual job. And then from there I was suddenly around a whole just sea of geniuses and immediately just felt out of my depth. These people were very, very bright and very, very good. And in large commercial, you're either at the top and looking toward being promoted or you're at the bottom and fearing for getting axed. And so I didn't want to be in that situation. So I was thinking, fantastic. I have this like kind of secret little stash of ingredients that no one really knows about. And again, we're not talking massive amounts, we're talking small, minor tweaks. But it's, that's enough. Right? Small, little incremental gains over time is huge. And so that was eventually what became savvy. So over the next three and a bit years while working there, I didn't love it. It was definitely, um, something that allowed me to experience burnout, um, which I hadn't experienced before, which is not a fun thing to go through. Just a lot of consistent stress and anxiety and it builds up heavy cases of Sunday Blues and all the rest of it that goes with it. So I was playing with different ingredients which were these nootropics. And so I would buy them in bulk because there was nothing available that was a ready mixed, uh, amount. So I'd buy these in bulk from all around the world because annoyingly there wasn't a one stop shop import them in and I would have half a kilo here and a kilo there of all of these weird and wonderful ingredients. Uh, my roommate at the time, probably, if I wasn't leaving every day in a suit, would have thought I was a drug dealer because it did look a bit suspicious. And I had a few types of scales as well. So once every three months I would get a four kilo Tupperware container, meticulously, um, weigh every ingredient to the amount based upon scientific research, showcasing this ingredient at this dose equals benefit. And then I'd shake it all up and an 8 gram serve, or specifically 8.2 gram serve, which is basically a tablespoon, was the correct dose of all of the ingredients. And it tasted horrific, like terrible, terrible, terrible. But if you put enough cordial with it, it was palatable and that's what it was. And that sat in the corner of my office, uh, in a cupboard. And so every single day I would have one or two of these in lieu of having 10 coffees like everyone else or The Adderall, the Ritalin, the Modafinil, the Adraphanyl, the Vyvanse, which seems to proliferate a lot of um, large corporate environments who don't realize there are alternative ways to get through the day. And so stimulant. Yeah, yeah. And just words started to spread that there was this weird lawyer in level six who was making these little brain potions, um, or brain elixirs or whatever they would refer to it as because I just initially was just giving it to some of my friends or people because they'd always just see me with a, a glass that had this weird kind of cordial in it. I'm like what are you drinking? And then I'd get all excited. I'd tell them, oh look, it's this, it's this mixture of 22 ingredients and it's really, really good.

Speaker A: It's, it's like water from all these different countries and it's all natural.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm like getting all excited going this thing's called nootropics, right. So like trust me, just try it out, see what you think. Like you will have a better day. It's, it's like multiple coffees in one, but it lasts way longer. You don't get the jitters like you do from the coffee. You don't get a crash like from the coffee. You, you also kind of feel clear headed. It's honestly just try it out. Um, and then they would, and then they'd come back to me whether via email, popping back to the office or hit me up on the inter office chat and be like dude, this was actually really, really good. Like where do I get this? And they expect me to send them down to the convenience store or the health food store. And I was like there's nothing else like, like this. They're like oh, okay, but is there something similar? And then. No, there's, there's not. There's literally not. I wish there was. It took me so long to work out how to find this, what amounts of these ingredients to use. The research is sparse and random. And so to actually put this together, this has taken years and years and years of time and research. Like hundreds and hundreds of hours to finally put this together. I've then verified it multiple times with friends who are much smarter than me in the places of nutrition, neutropathy and so, and even neuroscience. So I'm like this, this works. But uh, yeah, you can't replicate it. Like I wish, I wish something out there did. Um, I'm not even positive that all of these ingredients are even allowed to be used in like Australia and food and beverages and what quantities because there's all this lore about it anyway, so I then thought that was a cool thing for a while, that these people would come to my office and like it would even be partners and like the top people from law firms and even like people who are here for an international arbitration conference, someone who I've read about, know from the UK and they're suddenly in my office asking for this special law, um, special brand potion. And so you're suddenly thinking, this is amazing. And then that email you back saying it's really good. And then you might be able to co write something together. And so as a little budding lawyer, I was all excited, but I also didn't want that as a complete career a B. I wanted to look for something else. And then one day it just occurred to me, these drinks I'm making, which everyone seems to love, what if I made these for a living? What if that became my thing? That I replaced the need for all of these stimulants people are taking all day long in huge doses that only make things worse. And I made something that actually helps people. And that's what I did. I was 27, uh, at the time I was probably not in the best position to start a business. I only had $17,000 in savings. I still owed the government about 40 or so thousand dollars on my law degree. Um, and that was it. So not exactly the best place to get started. But nonetheless, I knew what I wanted to do. So I quit my life as a lawyer. I started studying nutrition and I started working out. Ah, how the heck I'm going to do this? Um, and everything does take a bit longer than you expect. But I worked out a company name, set up a company structure, worked out the brand name, worked out the idea, the business plan, the basics, started putting all things together. However, I quickly learned that for things to really work, money really talks pretty loud. And so that was a huge challenge, trying to go out to places and say, hey, I got this idea, can I get this in a drink? And um, find a manufacturing facility, whether it was just on the outskirts of Sydney, wherever it might be. And then one of the questions they asked quite early on is what ingredients? At what dose? Where are you getting them from? What are you putting it in? Is it a glass bottle? Is it a can? What is it? And how much money do you have behind the idea? What do you want to make here? They want to Know what you have backing you. And when you say, um, oh, like, I want to do a smallish dose to make sure it works, like I was thinking maybe around like 20,000 or something. I thought that was a reasonable amount of money and I couldn't have been more wrong. Uh, basically the nicer ones would say, oh, great, um, we'll come back to you. The less nice ones would laugh and just go, mate, fat chance. You're trying to do something entirely different using ingredients no one even knows about. Mate, this isn't going to work, so see you later. And, uh, I'd also be called a time waste from time to time, which is lovely. But I persevered and kept going. And now, years later, we have 19 products. Um, on the bio side as well, we've gone from, we're now at over a thousand stores, which is cool. We do supply a lot of large corporate, uh, offices directly from tech firms, finance firms, law firms, accounting firms, which is really cool. Um, because that's obviously where I started. And so knowing that they're drinking, um, a product that's quite helpful is great. We've also split the whole range away from an all in one into something that is, one is aimed at uplifting and providing focus and energy, but for a much longer period of time than a cup of coffee and without the crash. And the other one is all about mental health, so reducing stress and anxiety and helping you to feel dialed in and calm. And, um, that's what we, what we do now. But the first couple years were, uh, they had to be unconventional because I didn't have the key that most others did, which was money.

Speaker A: Exactly. And I think that that's the key here. You started off with a passion. You had $17,000 in the bank, you had a formula you knew was winning because you had so many people coming to you. And then not only were they enjoying it, they were taking the effort to actually tell you they enjoyed it. So that's even higher than just saying I liked it. They've actually gone to the effort to tell you that too. So you knew that you had an audience that was trialled and tested, that wanted this and you believed in it and went for it. It's a shame that, um, there isn't more locations for startups to attempt to make these products and that you went through a lot of those conversations. Yeah, the marketing money part, what did you do?

Speaker B: So innovation isn't great. What's amusing is a couple years ago, one of the ones that early on rejected me, uh, reached out Saying if I actually need a new manufacturer and if I consider switching my business to them. And I couldn't hung up the phone any faster. Um, I was tempted of course to throw some, some choice words their way but I thought no, I'm just going to rise above and just hang up block, I don't need them. And that was kind of it. So in terms of getting started um, I still recall the feeling when I had left law, um, I luckily could move back home with my parents so very grateful they took me back. They could have said no and that would have made life a lot more challenging. I, I think they thought it was going to like a mental health breakdown so that made it easier. So when bills um, were less of a concern I could actually focus on getting a part time job to try and bring some money in. Whilst also so I was working at a tutoring company same thing I did at university whilst trying to start the basics for savvy. And so that was my entire life. I wasn't really going out during the week or on the weekends. I became a little bit of a recluse. I try and see friends here and there for like a walk or a coff but anything that had a cost, dinners and nights out, no thank you. Wanted to spend everything on trying to get ahead for the business. So when eventually I saw the very first pallet turn up, um, it was interesting seeing all of your net worth to date and also being fully aware that you're probably fifty plus thousand dollars in debt at this stage because I did have to ask for a few extra dollars here and there from friends and family to try and pay for that first order. Uh, it's scary. Very uh, very scary. But the very first sale I had was actually the, the uh, truck driver. I'd completely forgotten. The transport industry also needs a product just like this that is a all in one product that not only will help with giving you a bit of a boost for energy but will also help with mental performance and with focus and will last longer than tea or coffee or caffeine alone products, energy drinks um, or Yerba mate or whatever the thing might be at the time right the, the Coke Zero in the afternoon. It's the reason that works is there's caffeine in it. Um and so we took a different approach and explaining that the very first time was actually kind of surreal. The guy said what is this? And I, I was tempted to start telling him it's a mental performance drink with 22 ingredients meticulously dosed and then I thought, no, he doesn't need to know that. Um, and so I just explained it is a really healthy, natural energy drink with way more stuff than a regular energy drink. And you get way more benefits and it lasts longer. You don't get a crash. Um, and the guy just said, cool, can I get a box? And then what was really beautiful is at a fortnight later, ah, I got a call from the same guy. And then he kept popping back over, um, every week to get about five or ten boxes from himself and his friends. And I thought, this is a market I never thought would exist. Um, in the meantime, I was going to all of the markets I could, so local markets in almost every separate suburb. Some are better than others, but, yeah, you keep turning up. Yeah, I had my very, um, cheap trestle, uh, table from Bunnings, a very basic tablecloth. Everything was done on the cheap, um, because there wasn't much money. Uh, and then it was just trying to sell the product everywhere I could. I was trying to utilize the network I had. So, so because you don't have money, you're forced to be creative. And I realized what I do have is a huge network of people on LinkedIn, a lot of corporates that I know would love the product, people at university who I know would love the product. And because I tested their MVP minimum viable product whilst working at my law firm, I knew it. It already worked well when it was just powder. Now it's the finished product with the convenience of being in a bottle. And I managed to make it taste reasonably okay. Um, and I can explain it in a much better way. I knew this would work. So then that became. The next thing was popping into the city consistently and trying to sell it the very first amount of drinks I could only afford to make 11,000 drinks. We managed to sell out in five weeks, which was really cool. I, uh, had a beaten up old Honda Jazz, which was a hand me down from my dad because I didn't have a car, but now I did. Um, I had his old car when he didn't want it and I would put down the back seats and I would stack the car with drinks and I would literally be flying around parking and loading zones where you get 15 minutes for free. Perfect. Um, and basically I had rented a trolley from Kenneth Hire and I'm wearing footy shorts and sneakers and not even a branded shirt, it's like a T shirt and it's running around dropping off drinks, uh, to people in different law firms, accounting firms, consultancy firms, etc. And it was great. If, uh, they wanted to do a cash sale, Hooray. If they wanted to do transfer, um, me. Either way was great and we flew through the product. But one time that I found particularly amusing is I bumped into, um, as I was running to one particular firm. I'm there with my trolley. Just imagine I'm there with my trolley. I'm wearing footy shorts and, like a T shirt and I have four or five brown boxes on a trolley and I'm walking up to this office and then suddenly I just hear Mark. And I look over and it's this barrister who, the last time I saw, I was instructing solicitor on a case with her, just before we popped into the Supreme Court, I think was the last time I saw her, like a year and a bit earlier. So she's just thinking, what on earth is what? He's now a delivery driver.

Speaker A: Were you wearing, like, the sneakers and the shorts and just a shirt running?

Speaker B: Just like. Yeah. So, um, yes. So she just asked me, what are you doing? Like, um, what's this? And the funniest thing was, I was actually so happy to tell her. Not only was I not remotely embarrassed, I was proud as hell of the decision that I'd made. And whilst she's there, uh, in her gown and her wig and with a few fanciful people around her, I was there going, you look. The law thing. Loved. It just wasn't for me long term, what I'm doing now, I'm loving, I'm actually happy. And I do want to get it out of bed in the morning, which is very different from the last time I saw yourself. These drinks, by the way, amazing. For focus, think like a coffee or something that lasts a lot longer, but it's actually good for your brain. Filled with ingredients your brain actually needs to thrive. Um, I'd love to try and get a boxer away, if you're interested. And then she said, how much for what's on the trolley? And I said, I'll look, I could do a deal for you. And then she goes, great, can you just bring that to my office? And. And then just let me know what I owe you. And I thought, absolutely. So I trolleyed that off to her chambers, got the car, moved it to a different loading zone, so we didn't get a ticket, and then did the original delivery I was already setting out to do, and I was like, this is cool. So people were surprisingly supportive, but it's not just because they were trying to be nice. The product worked and it was unique and it Was different. And I was terrible when it came to marketing and sales and trying to explain, explain why it worked or how it worked. Uh, even the design was, was very, very basic. Like, Susan can tell you, I'm holding up on like a webcam. And it's, it's, it's pretty average, but stands out. Exactly. It was out and it was making sales. And so once I sold the first 11,000 units, I didn't have a part two. So that was the next part of like, oh, good. What I do now, though, um, because I'm still getting like texts and emails and LinkedIn requests and the other stuff going, hey, mate, can you bring five boxes around next week? Can you do this? Can you do this? Hey, I gave this out to my friend who actually now owns 10. And I'm there thinking, I don't have any more boxes, man. So I was like, cool, I gotta set up like an email list with like a waiting. And it was quite cool thing. I'm now, I've now leveled up to be onto that next thing if it's actually a working business. So then I set up a proper, now fully functional website with an email system where I could actually hold on to people's details and send them information once the product was out. And then I went to that next level and then it slowly went from there. Um, so, yeah, that was one of the channels I expected would work and I hope would work, but it was a bit different because no one had gone direct to corporates before. So that was amazing. Um, surprised me how well it worked. But beyond that as well was the, the original truck driver and his freight buddies. Um, and realizing this is great. And he kept telling me, I never actually got around to doing it, um, to go out to some, like, certain yards where there's a lot of shipping, um, places and just go, mate, if you explain this, you would get 10 times as many orders. And I always thought, that's great. And I didn't do it with the original, um, drink, but I did in the future. And that also became a market I didn't expect. So what I learned was don't turn, uh, even though your business plan might be pretty clear to say you're going to do this, then this, then this, don't be afraid to pivot and if it's working great, throw your business plan in the bin and just start doing the thing that's working. Um, I adapted and changed consistently. People would, uh, eventually say to me, hey, look, love the product because it's really good for helping you to focus. But I don't like that it has caffeine. Could you make one without caffeine? That just helps with the focus aspect. And I thought, sure. And that's the reason why we have the two separate split brands now. And they both sell really, really well. Interestingly, the calm, uh, sparkling range in the drink format and the calm bars outsell the energy products.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: So more people want products that reduce stress and reduce anxiety and help them to feel a bit more dialed in and focused more than they want energy and performance and mood boosting and more kind of, uh, anything that's going to get them pumped up for the day. People are more interested in something that's going to help them to feel more level. And I think that's pretty cool.

Speaker A: That is really interesting. And there's something you've learned over time. And you listen to your audience saying, we love the product, but we want something that can be more soothing for us because we don't want to feel on edge or excited or energized all the time. And, and we were talking before and um, having like the energy one in the morning and then when you have that three o' clock little munchies, instead you have the calm, which gives you the, the energy you need and the mental calmness you need to go with it to finish the, have a nice set off to the evening. And um, what were you saying about um, I'll let you talk about what it does overnight with your body.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. So, um, we have at one stage I started to make a whole variety of different products. It started with a singular drink and then it made a few flavors of the drink. And then I spanned into coffee because people were saying, I love coffee and I love your drink, but I can't replace my morning coffee. And I thought if, if you can't beat them, join them. So I worked with a roaster in Australia where we get actually good quality organic fair trade coffee. I would then add ingredients to it. So now I suddenly had like a super enhanced coffee which I literally called super coffee. Um, and then I renamed it Focus coffee later because I realized the reason people love it is coffee, uh, they know gives them energy, but it doesn't give them focus. So I thought, well, ours ah, is focus coffee because it does give you energy and focus and it lasts 50% longer and you don't get a crash. So that was the kind of thing by adding these extra ingredients, which is again why it's cool. Like having one coffee or having the other isn't Going to make you a superhero, but you get more benefits out of it. So, uh, again, why would you not want to have the one that has more benefits? That was always kind of my, my thought process. So then beyond the coffees, we then moved into, uh, we had an opportunity, actually, with Kohl's, where it was a pilot, a pilot program. I'm not sure how we came across there, Jess, but. But it was cool as heck that we did. And they wanted to put us in a bunch of other health brands in a few stores around Melbourne, some of their big flagship stores. Coles is from Melbourne. Um, and. But they said I need to have a few extra products. What else do I have in the pipeline? Because to get in, I couldn't just have some, some drinks and some coffee and some more. So then I frantically made some bars and I made some greens. Um, I wanted to kind of do like an ag one, but better. One that actually works for energy and one works for calm. So, yes, it has all the same base ingredients that you, that you see on the shelf. The broccoli, the spirulina, the alfalfa glass, the chlorella, blah, blah, blah. But beyond that, it would also have the, uh, energy one at least would have green tea and L theanine and vitamins and other ingredients. Panaxgen, sangridiolosia. Uh, things that are great to have for energy. So it replaces that morning coffee or that mid morning coffee or lunchtime whatever. But then I also made one that's calming, which has ingredients like Cassandra Berry, California poppy, vitamin B6, B12 and vitamin C, magnesium, magnolia bark. So things that are really good to help your body to up, uh, regulate a neurotransmitter called gaba, which is like the calming neurotransmitter, like a handbrake for your brain, slows those racing thoughts. But also something that helps to regulate cortisol, which is the hormone responsible for stress and anxiety. So getting those two things out of control at a scientific level is instrumentally important. And that's what our calm range does. So having a greens powder that does that was great because it's a huge amount of really, really nutritious fruits and vegetables and algae that are dehydrated. And most fruits and vegetables and algae are, unsurprisingly, mainly water. So when you dehydrate them, you get a super, super concentrated powder. And so one table. So one teaspoon was equivalent to around one kilo of fruits and vegetables in terms of orac value. And so I would often, in the afternoon and evening have one or two serves of the calm greens because I loved the idea of a product that's going to allow me to feel calmer and then at the end of the day that's great, that's going to lead to more restful sleep, that's going to allow me to get to sleep earlier, stay asleep for longer, and also recover in a much better way. But beyond that, getting all of those antioxidants and anti inflammatories in my body, irrespective of how good the food I was, um, that day with what I ate, I loved the idea of like a little like cleaning crew going to work that night, so wake up the next day feeling a lot more refreshed than I otherwise would have. And that was one of the key things about the greens. But it was probably also a, um, little bit of a shiny ball, making a bit too many things, getting up to 19 products. It sounds cool, but like it's also, it's a lot to manage. So currently we're in the process of culling. So the process at the moment is what's working the best, paying attention to that. Why is that the case? Starting to do some market research surrounding it, working at the experience that people have from it, what they like, what they don't like, and then double downing on what's working well and then removing what's not working as well, or making changes, whatever needs to be done. Because every single potential bit of effort, energy, utility, time value, money that could be spent on something that has much better returns for the business is more worthwhile doing. So if people naturally gravitate more to the collagen, uh, nootropic bars, which is like a super healthy protein bar, but with all of these added ingredients more naturally than they will to the greens, then it would make sense if organically that's going to happen, just to try and spend more time and energy selling the bars. Because that's what people tend to go for and reach for first. Every time I spend money on the grains, I'm not getting that ideal return. So I've started just to um, move into that area. I'm not necessarily going to cut things, but when I say cull, it means in terms of the amount of attention and money we're putting behind ideas, um,

Speaker A: it makes sense because you're using research and data to back it and, and that's the, the best way to do it. You're listening to consumers, you're seeing what the trends are you're looking for, where the opportunities are and gaps in market. It makes sense.

Speaker B: But I have absolutely.

Speaker A: I have to say one of the things I love about your approach when it comes to discipline versus experimentation is that you chose with your products not to do what every other product range is doing with ingredients. Do you want to talk us through that and how you are very unconventional in that approach?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So a lot of brands early on tend to focus the approach on, let's make the product as cheap as possible and sell at the highest available price. Just considering consumer. Consumer surplus. Basic economic theory. Right. And in order to do this, um, also spend other people's money. A lot of people kept saying to me, mark, your idea is really smart. You're a smart guy. Don't spend your own money, spend someone else's. However, they oversimplify it, right? It's not as easy as going, yeah, no worries, guys. Who wants to give me a million? Um, not an easy process. You end up losing a huge chunk of potentially the entire direction and the scientific integrity of what you've built. And so for me, that was too much at stake. So I didn't do it, at least not until later when I knew I would be able to be more investable and control things better. In early days, it didn't seem appropriate. Plus, I also had imposter syndrome. Being like an ex lawyer comes nutritionist. So now, um, I've gone well over the top and I now have quite a few credentials in nutrition and, uh, neutropathy and health science and food science, which is great to have. Weirdly, a lot of my peers and a lot of people who run nutrition businesses do not have any understanding of nutrition, which is bizarre. But the actual thing about the ingredients that was interesting is ingredients cost money, functional ingredients cost money. And then also the other aspect which people don't often think about, if I'm putting in a really high quality ingredient like Panax ginseng or Rhodiola rosea, uh, into a product and they have a huge amount of benefits in, uh, their own right? But they taste terrible. It just tastes like I'm adding dirt to a drink. So then I need to then spend all of this additional money on natural ingredients to try and remove the bad taste and then spend more money again to try and make it actually taste nice. So if I'm trying to make a lemonade flavor, I need to first remove the unpleasant taste of the added ingredients and then add more healthy ingredients to try and make it taste yummy. That ends up costing a lot more. So therefore, what A lot of manufacturers and other people tend to do is they put in a tiny percentage of what you actually need to get the benefit. And I think that's extraordinarily uncool. What's worse is the ACCC in Australia and other little places don't seem to be as excited to jump on top of misleading and deceptive advertising claims, which is a shame. There is. The nutrition industry in Australia is rife with ridiculously under dosed products that do not work at the dose which the ingredients are in there, they're sub therapeutic, they simply will not work. But they make all of these exciting fanciful claims. However they cannot back it up, which is a shame. Um, I wish Australia did what New Zealand did with a brand called Arepa where they asked them to prove the effects of their product. They couldn't. And so they got ripped apart for not being able to substantiate their benefits. They made all these claims that their product will do ABC and they said, great, prove it. What ingredients at one dose and what science you're relying on, they couldn't do it. They got ripped apart. And I thought, wonderful, that's what you get for being a bit cheeky. However, in Australia that's not happening as much, which is a shame. And it allows for the nutrition industry to run rife with low quality products and also people and consumers to lose their trust, which is very important as well in the industry. So very often do I explain the benefits of the product and people go yeah sure mate, whatever. I just get hit with that. Yeah, I don't know about that mate, but the cool thing is is it works. And then I go, trust me, it's based on science. Try it out, see what you think. And what's beautiful is seeing them time and time again come back going, yeah, wow, this, this is really cool. This is unique. So, um, a lot of the, uh, people fall into the trap because it costs a lot more money to make a good quality product than it does to make an average quality one. And somewhere along the lines, especially if there's investors and financial people involved, will people say why would you make a product that has a cost of goods of $1.50 or $2 if you're only selling it for six, that's not a very good margin. We don't want that. Instead, make the product for less than a dollar please and sell it at 650 or 7. And that's annoyingly what a lot of products tend to do, which is a huge shame because they lack scientific integrity. The Product simply doesn't work. And if you look at most marketing and websites on products in drinks, in powders, uh, pouches, bars, I'm talking all different areas of nutrition. I'm talking products that are meant to be helpful for hydration, for beauty, for energy, for calm, literally across the board. But they rarely ever talk about their ingredients at the dose they're using. They'll say, oh, it's in here. Yeah, that super amazing grant you've heard about. It's in here. But they never talk about the dose or where they source it from and why that dose actually is ideal. Because that's the difference that we do over at Savvy, is ever since day one, the whole formula is based on 512 clinical pieces of evidence. That's why it took me 18 months to get that first drink bottled. I was doing a lot of scientific little work because I wanted people to ask, hey, how do I know that 6 grams of rhodiola Rosier in the drink is enough? I'm like, Great, here is 62 studies that back up that dose as efficacious for the claims that I'm making. And then people think that's pretty cool, and therefore we're off to the races. And most product. Some products do the right thing. And so I'm not saying, um. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say nine out of 10 products are pretty average, which is a huge shame. But there's still quite a few that are good. And I like to. I love that because I've kind of found my tribe in that respect. I went to a huge amount of networking events in the early days of Savvy, because again, that had to be the. When the traditional playbook of money doesn't work, you got to find your friends. And more often than not, I found all of these kind of fake charlatans type people who are just making products that don't work and it's crappy, and they just care about money and they don't care about health, even though they're making a health product for a nutrition company, which to me just seems bizarre. If you don't care about health, like, get out of the way, like, hold my beer, like, I'll do it. Um, but unfortunately, most brands just see it as a means to make money. And, uh, so while I'm out there passionately trying to actually make a difference to people's mental health and mental performance, which puts me in the. In the minority, but then you find other people who are also in your minority and you bind together extra hard because you realize that most people in your industry are just there to make money and they're marketing companies and they don't care if the product works or doesn't work. And what's worse is when you confront these people and explain, hey, you're claiming all of these fanciful things for health and people are going to buy this product and spend all this hard earned cash and not get the benefits. Don't you feel bad? And their response is usually it is like, I don't care. M. And I'm like, dude, you suck.

Speaker A: Like.

Speaker B: And what's worse is then I'll make complaints to whatever food authority I can or to like, consumer watchdogs about the misleading and deceptive conduct by making claims they can't back up. And then nothing happens. It just gets a bit frustrating. So you kind of end up just going, you know what, stuff it. And you play your own game and you try and be careful about what you say. I've previously called out certain brands and I've received cease and desist letters. I've been threatened to be sued by, um, Nestle because I kept talking about how that espresso capsules, um, aren't great for the environment. Like foil and plastic capsules aren't good. And in Australia, like, it's actually factual. Yeah. But what was really funny is I had an infographic saying how our coffee capsule, it has inside it's organic fair trade coffee. Theirs is not, um, we added nootropic ingredients. They do not wear a double shot, which makes sense because most m Australian coffees are double shot. They're a single shot. So you'd actually have to use two of those. Most people don't realize this. Um, and then beyond that as well. Our capsule is made of sugar beet and sugar cane, which means it's fully biodegradable and recyclable. You could throw this in your compost and 10 weeks later it will disappear and disintegrate. Which is beautiful because the insides, which is coffee and herbs and plants are also great for the vegetable patch. Whilst theirs is plastic and foil, which takes lots of energy, um, to get out and actually create and then doesn't biodegrade for about three to 500 years. Not good for the environment. Anyways, they reached out, um, with a five or six page legal letter, threatened to sue me because they didn't like that I mentioned that because they wanted to point out that their aluminium pods are actually considered an E metal, which is an environmentally sustainable metal because it can be endlessly recyclable. And they have a program where uh, you can recycle their thing. And um, I looked at the program and it had like aluminum bikes and stuff. And I was just like, I, I feel we're clasping at straws. But I also didn't want to upset uh, an enormous thing like Nestle. So whilst I was tempted to hold up the legal letter to uh, on and go live on Instagram and tick tock and the rest of it and go look at these bastards, but then I was like, I better not, um, I'll wait a few years and talk about it on a podcast.

Speaker A: It's, it is interesting. Like even, um, currently, if we're talking just general products, the plastic straws, I'm sorry, but those paper bamboo things are, they fall apart. You need to be given three of them probably to actually get through your drink to actually use a straw. And what do I do with it when it's sloppy and wet? Do I throw it in the recycling part? No, I can't. I've got to throw it in the bin because it's disgusting. And no one says you can put sloppy wet things in recycling bins.

Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Plus a lot of people don't realize the paper cups which seem, uh, eco friendly, actually have a plastic lining on the inside. Um, so there's plastic in so many different places. So whenever they make a change, which seems kind of good, I'm like, is this an actual change which is productive, or is this just an annoying greenwashing thing that everyone needs to kind of pay for? And more often than not it is the latter. One thing I could touch on on beverages in Australia, which irritates me a lot, is there is a return and earn scheme. Make my. I'm going to make myself extremely unpopular here with any governmental bodies. But let's talk about the facts. So privatized waste disposal companies are actually the ones making money here. Companies will have to pay 13 or 14 cents or roughly around that amount her beverage they make, whether it's in a glass bottle, plastic bottle, can, etc. There's different rates depending on different, uh, products that you make. And then I'm paying that to a privatized waste disposable company. Uh, and then they may, when it actually gets recycled, provided whoever does the recycling with 10 cents, then you just kind of wonder, is this just an example of greenwashing? When you have state government saying, hey guys, I return an EARN scheme incentivizes recycling and this, that and the other. But they forgot to mention that the entire thing, it's funded by beverage manufacturers being charged an additional chunk of money. So then privatized waste disposal companies can then earn that money and it ends up in the exact same place as it does if you just put it in the yellow bin. And the other like unforeseen aspect of it as well is how many people are actually doing that A and then B, what do you think happens to the price of products when you charge the manufacturer an extra 13 or 14 cents? Jerk. And they, they do, they do they make it an extra 50, um, cents more expensive.

Speaker A: Same with anything else that goes up. Like another example is transport, um, costs with uh, petrol prices that's all going to eventually go back to the consumer to pay more because those companies aren't going to just wear that, they're going to pass it on.

Speaker B: And they do pass it on. Like the second it happened. At one stage I had one of my freight companies saying there's a 57% fuel levy. Um, it was like in the height of it with diesel. And so at the time I was not overly excited because I had 19 pallets of drinks that were just made in Melbourne which I need to bring to Sydney and something that would normally cost, um, I forget what the price was, but it was up by quite a few thousand dollars.

Speaker A: But they, yeah, they charged that 57% increase, which is ridiculous.

Speaker B: Yeah, they just passed on. Everyone's passing it on. And then the same with even the little like transport companies, the Aramex, the couriers, please, even Auspos, uh, they all just dumped on the pricing to consumers. So it hurts uh, when whenever there is any type of change to the prices of creating something that's not worn that's passed on. And so people wondered why prices of all different drinks and beverages went up dramatically a few years ago. It's because the government imposed a stupid tax regarding recycling which isn't properly done if it was done like it's. It's very loosely based upon a European system which isn't done correctly. So be sure anyone is done correctly. But if it was correctly done they could go ahead and actually look at the m. Um, the barcode scanning. Manufacturers own it. As in like the actual infrastructure is owned by the state governments or the federal government. However do it states probably simpler and then work out how many items were sold. So say it's uh, Nippy's Iced Coffee and they sell 50,000 in New South Wales in that month. Great. Charge Nippy's iced coffee, the 50,000 that was given back to the people. Um, and then that seems reasonable if 50,000 people got 10 cents per Nippy's carton and then Nippy's pays the that cost, maybe even plus a small percentage, not 40% but maybe an extra like 5 or 10% admin fee. That is a nice circular um, system. And they probably wouldn't feel this need to dramatically increase the price. But when you're told you must, um, you will be paying an extra 13 or 14 cents on everything you make whether or not it ends up giving someone 10 cents. That's when manufacturers go, well this is unfair.

Speaker A: I could definitely talk forever. Uh, on that topic I have thought,

Speaker B: oh, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of little examples. Sorry, I probably got a bit heated there at the end upon something that's not that relevant to the rest of the savvy stuff. But yeah, small things. Right.

Speaker A: Well let's talk about something that is more close to home and something that's more about you. I ask every guest this question, what brand, any brand in the world best represents you and why?

Speaker B: So it's a good question because you're kind of tempted to go with like a small fun little brand or even mention your own brand and go, oh well, savvy, because it's my story and

Speaker A: um, I'm happy to do the cheating.

Speaker B: No, no, no, I want to go with them. So one that I've always admired uh, has been Google. So huge they're now obviously enormous. Right? But they weren't always this large. And what's cool is ever since day one they've kind of believed in like openly providing uh, so many people with a means of getting information which is really, really cool. Beyond that as well, places that work with um, Google or for Google, they've always been kind of pioneering the concept of looking after the employees mental health and wellness and allowing that to be a driver of productivity. So some of their office spaces have like scooters and skateboards. There's rooms for games and arcades and playing and ping pong and table tennis. But there's also like little places you can have a nap and they've also got free food and free drink like delightedly.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And like that. Things like that has helped the reason why we sell to so many corporates because others are thinking, well look at the Google example. Their employees love working there so they're happily working the extra half hour, hour a day and the quality of work you're getting out of them per hour goes up dramatically because they enjoy work, they're in a good mood, they're having fun. And I think of that example as opposed to me depressed as hell, looking out across Sydney Harbour, but unable to leave the office, not loving my. So it's a very different, uh, approach and it works really well. So more and more businesses following that Google example is great. So I'd say that's probably the closest to, um, me into what I've tried to do, which is the idea of looking after people's mental health and wellbeing and putting that first and allowing everything else to flow from that. Because I think if you're consciously putting the right stuff in, similar to some of the old school, um, quotes of Food is medicine and you. And to go on the Nutrigan angle, you only get out when you put in, which I know seems hilarious because it's such an unhealthy cereal, but it's very true in terms of if you're eating phenomenally well and you're putting the right stuff in your body, you are going to get more out of your body and more out of your brain. Which means there's less chance of issues coming up, there's less chance of disease and more chance of you feeling good and energized and great every day. And that's why I find it wild that so many people have such unhealthy diets and don't even realize there's so many much healthier options out there. Which is one of the key reasons why we're pioneering this industry of nootropics, which is an ever growing industry, because if people start looking after their brain early, they get more results out of it being nicer, happier people. And that's the kind of beautiful idea of the ripple effect, right? If more and more people are doing that, suddenly everything starts to get a little bit nicer, uh, a little bit better.

Speaker A: I do love that and I do see the synergies of Google versus yourself in our conversations that we've been having. So thank you so much for sharing that.

Speaker B: Thanks, Susan.

Speaker A: I'm gonna do just a quick wrap up and then you can let me know if there's anything I've missed. So I've absolutely loved the conversation today with Mark and Savvy in regards to how to actually start a business when you don't have a lot, but you need, but you have that passion, you know, people love it and it's one of the problems that a lot of potential startup people have, they're entrepreneurs, they know they're onto something but they don't have that big capital behind them to back it because they're part of the little people with great ideas. It doesn't mean you can't try and you can try as hard as you, you can in certain ways. In this particular example, Mark was so fortunate that he could every day afford the ingredients to make it, make it up based on all his research to then have his test guinea pigs around the office. I love that idea that you just test on people around you, get them to do word of mouth for you and then it grows organically so that people come to you. And I think that's one of the key things. It's that MVP moment. Can I make something to test it to see if my audience will love it and if they love it enough, they will come to me. I don't even have to go out to them, particularly when I don't have the money for marketing. And that seems to have worked fantastically in this example and it can be used in yours as well. If you believe enough in it, that passion comes out. We see and hear that from Mark today and everything that he does. But if you've got no money and you've put all your money into that product and it's coming, what could you do? And one of the things that he did differently compared to the normal playbook is I can't afford all those meta ads, I can't afford to do giant billboards on, I can't afford to have a giant influencer etc or brand ambassador or whatever you want to put the money into. But what I could do have, I have a network and I can be creative with that network. I can go out and talk to people I know already from my test and learn in my trials that corporates really benefit from this because they can work harder, do more, not get the crashes, save money, be able to enjoy the product as well and get a huge benefits from it, from the nutritional value too. So why not go out to my network of corporates? I'm a past lawyer, I know a whole pile of people, I've got a whole pile of ex clients and people connected to me. And that's what he did. He went and started reaching out and that human touch makes a huge impact in marketing because you hear that passion, you get to hear how it's worked, you can ask questions. And he also knew the target audience, which made that a little bit easier for him too. But of course there's always going to Be surprises along the way. Surprise is, oh, uh, truck drivers, they need to concentrate. That's what my product does. This will help them. They won't have the crashes they get from caffeine and everything. So you always have your door open to have pivots where required, even from bringing in a new segmented audience you didn't think might appreciate it. Also during it is what next? What, what will happen next. I need to do that. I didn't think of one of the big ones here was an email waiting list because people were so excited about what was coming next. A new bar, a new flavor, a new whatever it was. So having that surprise as well was good because that's a quick fix. It doesn't take long even just to get an Excel spreadsheet up and running and get people just to email it to you. But always remember to follow through, even if it's just a light communication saying it's not quite ready yet, but we haven't forgotten about you. Check out our website. Always remember to keep doing those little touch bases with people, even though it's going to take a while for whatever they're interested in to come to life. Another great way to do marketing a bit different is go where the audience is. The truck driver example, go to the yard, go there and actually let the people test and taste it and try it and then buy a case of it. That makes a difference in your audience. So, uh, yes, you can go the markets, yes, you can do all those things. But if you go to where you know your audience is and you know you've got people there that are friendly for you, can maybe speak for you, that will make a huge difference. And that again goes back to know your audience and pivot where needed. I also love that as part of his journey, data and research became key when it came to expanding. Listening to your audience, listening to what they are willing to spend their money on, no matter if it's powdered or ready made, so that you know what will work when you put it out there. So you're less likely to have that high risk. It's more of a lower risk when you're going out. But to be honest, all of this is about, in this example, building trust with this brand. This brand in particular is talking about we put these ingredients in at uh, the right dosage for you. Do a taste test, know the difference from another product to what we've got, a coffee versus this. You will notice the difference because of our ingredients. We don't hide or shy from that. We Put in the real benefit. I think that's a key differentiator here. Know your product differentiator. Talk about it, talk about it with authenticity. Be passionate about it too. And people will hear this and understand this and be willing to give it a go. And when they have that one go, as all the examples we've heard from Mark today, they'll come back and ask for a case. Not one bottle, but a case. So that's why the power of marketing helps you here, because you're doing the. You're actually claiming a benefit and you're following through with it. And that's when people will grow businesses and people will switch because of learning and getting that trust factor up. Mark, have I missed anything?

Speaker B: No. I thought that was a great summary, uh, of everything. Thank you.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, I would love you to share with everyone how people could get in touch with you and follow your journey, please.

Speaker B: So the website is great, which is savvybeverage.com Alternatively, you can find Savvy Beverage on LinkedIn. Or myself, Mark J.T. curry on LinkedIn. Also Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. But probably the simplest way to get started is the website because everything is hyperlinked there.

Speaker A: Fantastic. And you can find all the stockers as well there. So you can go try it yourself.

Speaker B: Yeah. So interestingly with that, we actually took that down. So any stock request, just shoot a message. Um, one of the team will go back to you very quickly with where and when. And the rationale as to why is because we have quite a few products out and sometimes stores will have just the boost drink range, the calm drink range, and the coffee. But then it turns out that person really wanted to try the greens and they're furious that they drove 10 minutes up the road to whatever store it was to find out they didn't have the product they wanted. And of course, uh, more often than not, that's. That becomes my fault because, um, they're a bit irritated that it have it and so. And maybe that store was out of stock that week. Maybe that's just something that store just doesn't stock because it's a small little store. It could be a multitude of reasons. So I thought the safest thing is, uh, I know the data of what each store has and so when I know what the customer wants. Oh, uh, I really want to try out the calm bars. Great. Where do you live? What's the suburb? Fantastic. Go to any of these 17 stores, they have.

Speaker A: Fantastic.

Speaker B: And then you can just feel a bit safer that they're going to get what they want. Um, it was simpler when we only had a few products because each time you're in a store they have all of those. But once you have quite a few, uh, you need to almost just validate the request to ensure and it was too complicated putting all that information online. So we just thought let's just take the easier option here and just take it offline. And then customers who want to try it out, we'll send them into stores.

Speaker A: Perfect. So anyone who wants to try anything in particular, shoot that email through and they'll get back to you really quickly and you'll know that when you get there. Again, another brand promise. See, their marketing is behind brand promise, making sure the experience is great and they'll get back to you and let you know where you can go. Everybody else, thank you so much for listening to this podcast on water marketing. Don't forget to listen for more future fabulous guests. More to marketing.