Negotiating Your Worth: The Executive Playbook for Compensation

Speaker A: Go to them again. In the spirit of. I want to join. I'm really excited about this role. I don't want the compensation to be in the way. However, it's fair that I get paid what I feel I'm worth. The golden rule is being prepared to walk away. Hello and welcome to Mission 1, the Executive Edge. I'm Jared Marles from the UK, calling in from the UK and joined as always by, by my co host Dan Hampton over in Sunny. I said Flunny. Sunny Florida was what I was going to go with before the spoonerism came in. Hello, Dan. How are you doing?

Speaker B: Doing well, thanks. Uh, yeah, it's sunny, uh, the sun is on my face, uh, and nice and warm, uh, here in Miami. Yeah, it's great to see you. And also I just want to say, uh, thanks to the listeners that have been sending in feedback to us. Certainly appreciate that and, and hope you enjoy this podcast. Jord, what are we talking about today?

Speaker A: We are talking about, of course, the Art of the Deal, which is my patented new book, which I think is gonna shake American capitalism. Uh, it is. We're gonna talk about a theme that's often to Brits, that it's sensitive. Talking about money. We're famously a nation that doesn't love talking about money, but talking about compensation negotiations. Right. Like how do you bring up this topic in a search process? So we're gonna be looking at it from the candidate side to go first call or application about a role. Often the question comes up early, sometimes it doesn't. It's even more problematic. How do you handle that question later on and make sure that you're getting something that's fair, reasonable, what are the parameters you can ask for? And I think there's another topic where people can get very senior and sometimes they haven't had a lot of exposure to it. Right. They've stayed in. They might have only had two or three jobs in the last 10, 15 years. And it was through friends or whatever, they got the jobs or people, you know, ex colleagues or whatever. And they just haven't really been in a scenario where they're having to negotiate afresh and they're not sure what the rules are, what the norms are, might have changed. So it's a question we often get asked about or are asking people and I think we can cover it in some really compact helpful points to get people to the right compensation and get. Or not right, or like, you know, avoid going to the wrong compensation.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. This is. And to your point, I think people don't really think about negotiation or even attempt it early in the career. And they get to this point mid, late in their career where they're negotiating for the first time. You know, ideally it's not late in your career you're doing this, but at some point you're negotiating for the first time or you're thinking about compensation or trying to figure out how to push back to get what you want for a role. And so this podcast, this episode should really hopefully help you understand more of that, but it won't be all encompassing. But you know, again, from the candidate perspective, where do you begin, how do you began? And my advice would be before you even get to the call, maybe before you even thinking about the role, get a sense of what you're worth in the market, right? Get some data points out there, ask your former peers from other organizations, ask your friends that are in different places, you know, and get a sense of compensation looks like at different stages, at different asset classes in different organizations, different, you know, people, companies pay differently, different places and with weighted variables differently as well. So get a sense of comp reports, venture backed comp reports. You can use pave, you can ask for the best case, kind of getting real data from the market out there and uh, so you have a sense of what you're worth and make sure you have more than one data point so you're not weighted the wrong direction as well or have a false sense of, of, of what comp looks like out. What do you think about that, Jordan?

Speaker A: I think that's right. And again it comes back to common theme of these podcasts, right? We say do your research, build up your understanding of market context. And how do you do that? Again it is as Dan says, there's desk based research you can be doing looking at your industry. There is human intelligence based research. Being able to talk to headhunters are great asset, right, in that sense because it can be kind of awkward asking your friends what they're paid and other companies. Again, I think that's a very cultural thing though, to be fair. I think some cultures it's much more expected. Everyone knows what everyone's being paid, everyone's curious about it. Certainly in British culture it's kind of uh, a taboo subject. You never ask people. Well, you can ask intermediaries. Again you can ask HR friends, they might have sense, they might be able to see a wider range of compensation, um, uh, that you can have a look into. So getting that sense of what you're worth in your market is one thing. Dan, what about. Because a lot of people now are sometimes being poached to other sectors that they might not know. Right? There's new sectors. Hey, I've got a call from an AI driven company. How do I know what I should be being paid? Because there's kind of lunacy of numbers going around. You're hearing all these massive fundraisers the same time a lot of that money is getting spent on the models or the engineer or the consumption rate. It's not all profit that's being piled in. What are your thoughts on, let's say you know what you're worth in your market, but how are you going to think about new markets? Or what would you say about that?

Speaker B: To your point, go ask recruiters in your network. We get asked quite a few times a week. I think, um, hey, what does the compensation look like for this? Or can you sanity check this offer for me? Yeah, I think you can go and ask if you're going to something innovative that's a startup that's raising money, you can get a venture backed comp report, you can ask talent partners, partners at different VC funds, they should have a good sense as well. Um, now understand there may be bias there if you're, if you're, if you're interviewing with one of the portfolio companies. So you know, get a, get a sense of your unbiased sources as well. But certainly leverage your network there, certainly leverage the data that's out there. It's becoming, you know, sometimes this data is hard to find because it's behind certain paywalls and they've made it hard to find on purpose. So try to leverage any data points you can.

Speaker A: That's a great point, Dan. I think again some of our listeners may have missed this sort of new rise of a role which is the talent partner within venture capital funds and within private equity funds as well. So again, some people might not be looking at that side of the market at all. But again, in some of these very high growth areas, so let's say you're looking at AI. There's clearly a lot of venture capital, private equity money and other asset class money going into these assets. And within those assets there are usually whole teams. Depending on the size of the fund, it could be one or two people, it could be a whole team of people. If it's a big international fund that will be dedicated, talent partners is often the type, uh, that they'll have. It might be some variations on that. And um, they will be seeing compensation and hiring across tens or hundreds of companies. Potentially and have huge access to data. Again, they're not going to just post that out there. Actually some do. Some partners have quite a public profile and they're churning out a lot of information. So get on there. Their LinkedIn threads or seeing their reports that they're pushing out because they, they're sometimes vested in, in sharing that information to build their own profile and the funds profile. But also it's quite a useful person to know within or because again they've got wide market context. So if you're a high valuable executive then they will want to know you and similarly then you can trade with that, hey, you're getting to know me, I could be relevant for one of your portfolio companies. How about that? You can also be an information source and a touch point for me to be a Santi check and get. I think that's. And again because that role is not a new role but it's certainly really increased I'd say In the last eight to 10 years I've seen it's a big increase in that function being hired and valued within Org. Uh, it may not be a part of your network but is valuable to understand. Dan, um, we're talking about how do you know this open face call was relevant for a pay increase? Right. Like sort of comp negotiations at your own place. Right. So researching the market. Um, let's say uh, you get the call from a headhunter as I'm sure you often do. Dan, I'm sure people always try to poach you to go work at exciting companies all around the world and they say, let's say either compensation doesn't come up or they ask you how much you're paid. What's your response to that? Because I think that's a common point where we asking candidates and sometimes it's a moment of oh, what should I say? I don't know, should I be very honest, keep my cards close to my chest or even like is it okay to ask about all the comp is. What's your advice in that situation?

Speaker B: Look, if I'm being recruited by um, another recruiter, I'm going to expect that they know close to how much I'm making and what the market value is. So there's a level of understanding that kind of goes on set there. Right. I think if you're being reached out to um, you know, good recruiter will know, hey, um, VP product here makes about this much money. A VP product at a series C stage company is going to make kind of this money. So they should have A general sense now you don't have to as the candidate share your compensation at all like you don't have to. It helps you later in the process or helps you certain stages of the process if you kind of give some, some understanding or some, some insight into what matters more to you of you know, maybe you need more cash for a certain reason or you need more, you know, whatever you can trade cash for equity, that kind of thing but you don't have to share it. And good recruiters generally going to have a sense of what you're making. You know, even without that data point we get later in the process it behooves you maybe to be more transparent around this thing or uh, around compensation I should say again, not required. But if you don't share anything that you may get an offer that isn't attractive to you because they're weighing more equity or more cash or more ltip. Whereas you, you know, maybe there's personal reason why you need more cash and you can trade that for a long term incentive uh, as well. So if you don't share anything, just expect you're going to be in for a lengthy kind of negotiation or multi round negotiation to get where you need to be in that part of the process is going to take a lot longer before you can actually start in the role. Do share is some things that will help get you where you get you to where you need to be. And always I think sometimes candidates come into this kind of not trusting the other side is looking out for them in terms of trying to give them a competitive offer. But I find more times than not that the company is actually trying to give them the most competitive offer they can. They just need to weigh it uh, appropriately that way.

Speaker A: I think there's, it's a bit of art and science in this right as an end negotiation. So there are trade offs to different approaches and I would say that different nationalities. Again we work very internationally. I'd say some cultures almost will never give you any details. Some cultures will just say look, I like being upfront, here's what I make and make sure you're not wasting my time. And I think that's the uh, key point. It's about how much you're willing to trade in terms of your time and potential sort of upside. So if you do not want to share anything about compensation at all, then you run the risk, you get later down the line and you then get made an offer that's not compelling or even ballpark compelling. And we sell a lot of People. And that's often why people are honest. Right. I think most people start off thinking, I'm not going to tell anyone. They do that for a few recruitment processes. They get very frustrated. So they then go, so this, I'm going to say this is how much you're making. Just one check you're going to often want. Again we usually say yeah that's absolutely fine. We're talking about a 600k to uh, package plus some equity, uh, whatever it is. Right. So we get to a good place. Now again that's not to say that is always the right answer because again I appreciate people want to say, well I don't want to negotiate against myself and particularly if people feel underpaid or again they lack certainty about what the value is, let's say they're moving uh, to a different industry or adjacent sector or again, classically where I think there's friction is people moving between types of companies. So we work a lot with listed companies, we work a lot with earlier stage high growth companies. The way those two companies structure their compensation is different. And if you're moving from one sense to another, you might not have a good sense of what you should be asking for. Because if you're in a large listed company you're used to larger uh, higher base salary, higher fixed bonuses and then stock on top quite banded within that. Right. Whereas if you're going to an earlier stage company it might be much more equity driven in illiquid equity. The bonus might be more uncapped or like higher potential but higher risk. So it might be, look, if we hit big targets within the next three, four years then we'll pay you huge amounts of money. Right. Because you've driven huge value in the company. So that can be an area where there's a little bit of ambiguity about people saying, well I'm not sure where I'm going with this is what I make at the moment, but I don't know what to expect in another area and that's perhaps a separate point within it. So I would say to people, another thing we should mention is the law because the law is different. Particularly anyone who's listening to this call from the hiring side. Certainly in California, right, you're not allowed by law to ask people what they're ah, paid. Uh, in UK I'm aware of no laws that prohibit this at all. So I can ask people my heart's content. So you're having a sense of the law is useful. I think an area that can be a happy sort of Halfway place. If people get. Sometimes people feel a bit uncomfortable about sharing their conversation. Uh we suggest give an idea of like where expectations are. Look, I don't know where sure I am but hey just, I just make sure we're just way out. I could expect base salary that's going to start with a three or two or whatever it is. Right. And ah. Bonus in my industry is normally 50 to 100% range. I just want to check we're in the right ballpark because then they can say like oh that's really far off actually this is you know or junior role or something like that and you can, you can get out of there where you haven't actually necessarily uh committed to an area.

Speaker B: I just wanted to add if you are a candidate that has compensation variable that you need that is out of market dynamics, let's say you, you just absolutely need a bunch of cash because you're going through something personal and or you need a guaranteed bonus. You need something that is just non standard from a uh compensation. Usually it's super high cash based salary. For whatever reason it really behooves you to disclose that early to the recruiter so they can start one, start socializing that and to pull away from the process if they can't. If, if that can happen like if they can't meet your, your, your what your needs there are and you. So that way you're not wasting your time, you're not wasting their time in the process. And we've seen that before where you know typical uh role is going to pay around 300 base salary but candidate is stellar and for whatever reason needs 500,000 and they're willing to trade long term incentive but they disclose it early. So that way everyone uh understands what they're getting into before they, before they invest many hours in a process.

Speaker A: I think that's a great point you make that ambat life situation because again we see it with candidates who are sometimes going through divorces or there's family issues with kids in schools or your partners doing certain work, tax implications etc. So it might be a case of look, if I have to relocate for this job I'm going to need more money because it will mean my spouse can't work in the new location or take them 612 months to get ramped up. So you're not just thinking about hey I want more against what I'm making. But there's other elements there and I think go into it with the spirit we encourage our clients to have is if you see really excellent talent. Understand you're going to have to pay a premium for it because they're going to bring a huge amount of value that they bring. So sometimes clients can be more creative around trying to find a solution because if you're the right person, being upfront ahead of time can give them that option of okay, well I know this is the candidate I want, but I appreciate they're coming with extra costs and they can get their head around that ahead of time rather than being sort of surprised at uh, the end or having to compare some apples to oranges or without realizing it. What else, Dan, would we add to this or what else we're covering here?

Speaker B: I mean I think we can talk about trends as well in terms of what we're seeing along this, along these lines. And look, I mean if you're listening to this, this is a one uh, off podcast episode. Uh, but you really could be, could talk about negotiation and offer some compensation for you know, an entire day, you know, longer, many episodes. There's a lot to learn here so please dig into this more especially if you're going through this or reach out to us if you have any specific questions. But in terms of like what we're seeing from a trend standpoint or what to expect if you're moving to a high cost of living area, expect higher cash. I mean typically companies are paying premium from a cash standpoint for people in San Francisco or New York or London, you know, that kind of thing. Like if you're in a high cost living area, expect your base will go up from a cash standpoint, retraining cost of living expenses there. I think also expect to return to office if you're changing roles to achieve a higher compensation. But maybe you're in a remote role. This interviewing with new companies are probably going to ask you to return to office. That started that trend is really happening even for people that are in remote, remote roles today at ah, existing companies that they're at they being asked to return to office. So factor that in as you're thinking about an interview process or switching roles today. My last one I think would simply be if you're interviewing with a startup and you're getting, you're negotiating with a startup, you know, they're going to want to see that you're invested in terms of the equity offering as well and not trying to trade your equity for higher cash necessarily that could give them a uh, especially early stage could give them a negative signal there that you're not as invested in the long term success and you're more of a mercenary. Uh, higher for the uh, driving cash and their burn rate higher, which is not exciting to them.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think. And um, we've seen it with Dan on the other side. Again, sometimes it depends where an organization's at. I think if they're very early and uh, the equity is very unproven in the value, then certainly people want you to come and say take a part of that risk. It's a sign of intent and belief. Do you think this is a, uh, successful company to come? If a company is a little bit more advanced, so they're already highly profitable, but still privately owned, I think people can be more flexible on the equity side because sometimes the owners are saying, look, we believe in the equity so much.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: If you want to be paid in cash. We had a client who was nine figure revenue, very profitable. And the candidate, for various reasons said, actually, again, lifestyle reasons said, actually, I need more cash than equity. Client was happy with that because they're like, great. We want to keep all the equity for ourselves because the cash is worth less to us in the long run than we think the equity is. So it can be a stage element and a risk element. That's a way up there. And uh, I think that also leads to a point we talked a little bit here about. We talked about how do you think about compensation before you've got the call about a role. We talked about compensation. When you get the call about a role, when you're thinking about the end of the role, it's also worth highlighting. Get real clarity on the structure. We often say the devil is in the details of these offers. And again, there can be just a lot of complexity within that. It's kind of simple. If you're going from One Corp, I work for a client who's in credit cards. And if you're going from one to the other. Right. Like they're similarly set up, big listed blue chip American companies. They had very similar, uh, comp models. It was probably pretty interchangeable to. You went from one to another. Right. That's not very difficult. Um, as I said, if you're going to a different geography, you're going to a different stage of growth, different size of company, different age of company. All these things will probably mean there's nuances and elements that are going to be different. And again, you can think about them at the end. Uh, but it's worth thinking about getting ahead of that as well, a little bit or understanding particularly when you're being presented with a, uh, compensation uh, packet. We'd advise people try and receive that offer from the person who understands the detail. We tend to push our clients to. We're always happy to communicate offers to candidates. And it can also be really powerful though and useful to have the person like the cfo, whoever it is who's like the person who understands all the detail of an offer, uh, on that call as well. And you can ask for this, right, or you can ask for as a candidate as a follow up call. If you take an offer from anyone who can't explain the whole offer. Uh, I get it sounds sort of intuitive, but again, sometimes people just go in Stewart on themselves or try and Google it or chatgpt it. Like go to say I need half an hour, I need 20 minutes with your head of compensation and performance review or whatever or your CFO or whoever it is in the company. Who is the person to say, okay, walk me through the scenarios. Um, tips around equity. Again we see people go wrong on this is ask people to show them the models, right? Like what does a good exit look like? What's the timeframe? What does a bad exit look like down the park exit look like? Okay, what are the assumptions that go into that that have to make that happen? Again, I think people just go wrong. We do a lot of very smart people who are used to solving things is they just go away and try and do it themselves and they get themselves into a bit of a pickle because they sort of say, well, I don't know, or they feel a bit embarrassed as though that's something they can't ask about. It's like, well be really brutal in saying, well, what's the worst case scenario here? What happens if you don't hit those growth? What's underwater? What's that situation look like? So that can really help you understand because actually often through those conversations you end up getting a lot more confidence in every experience. It's like when you don't know, you feel that fear when you actually go into the numbers, you suddenly go, wow, I can make, I make 6 million in three years. And that's kind of credible, right? I could do that. A reasonable exit. I believe that we can get there. Okay, there's risk, but that suddenly sort of lights it up. And then we actually see the flip sometimes from candidates go. Who are very cash heavy in the start, uh, of conversations. By the time they get to the end, they're suddenly saying, actually no, I would like more equity here because I think it's a no brainer once you Properly understand the trade off. So build that knowledge and just grab hold of any opportunity to keep gaining that knowledge.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And let's, I mean we kind of talk more about that scenario. So if you're a candidate at the end of the stage, you're getting an offer, ideally it's from the hiring manager with the CFO or somebody that could explain the valuation of the equity. It's really powerful. If the hiring your future boss is presenting the offering and giving you a real sense of how much they'd value joining the team there. Let's say you're getting the offer. You don't have to give an. I mean it's self explanatory, I mean it's probably obvious but you don't have to give an answer on that call. It's behooves you and them. And it's totally fine to take a couple of days to go offline to consider, consult with your family, mentors, you know, whomever out there. And as you're coming back and you have things to negotiate, make sure you're doing it all in one go. You're asking for all of your asks in one go. Right. If it's, you're not just going through, well actually I'd like a higher bonus. And then they come back and they give you that and then you're asking and then you come back and ask for uh, something else and something else go come back with all of your asks in one. And when you do that, we often see candidates often but we've seen candidates make their whole negotiation about the compensation for the role, their whole, their whole interest about the compensation for the role. Right. If you're coming back and expressing the things you need to join, also express your interest in the role and your excitement to join the team. You're excited to embark on uh, the challenges that they're facing and help solve these things and excitement to be with the company for the long term as well. And that goes a long ways too.

Speaker A: That's a great point about not dragging it out. Right. Because I think that wears people down. There's a lot of goodwill from a hiring manager, from the client side, from the hiring side to, to get you a deal that's you're happy with, excited about. If you keep chipping away then that over uh, multiple rounds of negotiation, that's going to wear down and there is this sort of sense of momentum. Right. Because there might be other stakeholders behind that who you're not interacting with. Say like is that not done? Are they still asking Questions about that. Are they really serious about joining? Right. You don't want the chairman saying I thought you hired that CMO or that cpo, like what's going on? I thought it was done. Oh no, they came back for another thing. Okay, well we got to move. I've got to start mentally thinking about what this, if the negotiation is successful and they can start to move on. So I think that's a great point. Do uh, it in one. And also the point about taking your time, I'd be very. Again, we work with some excellent, hugely successful companies. They don't put pressure on people to accept deals quickly. I don't think I've ever had a client who's really gone down that route. So again, you sort of read about it. I know there will be people who put pressure on or try and try and ramp it up to say yes. I would personally always say, actually remember your power. So hard to hire really excellent people and get excited about really excellent people in this market. Right. Your value, they're huge value. And if a client is, should be, I think some good client behavior is somebody who's really trying to say like what do you want? Let's get this done properly and let's make sure you're staying for like three to five years. And because we've set it up the right way, at least that's the kind of attitude which I say is a green flag if anyone is sort of putting too much pressure or trying to play too hard ball. Again, we don't see it with our clients, I have to say. But I think it does go on out there. I think it's sort of like maybe at the more mid level there's a little bit more of a look, a bit more of like a tough ball type approach uh, to negotiations. But we would say that's a little bit of red flaggnosis of a weak position. And actually it's very good to push back against that because again the negotiation is in some way also the start of the working relationship as well. So I think I'd also encourage people to feel it's sort of an exercise in how you're going to work with these people. Can you talk about issues openly? Can you be honest in sharing information? Can you have a disagreement and then find a resolution through that without resorting to um, time bound threats or anything like that? Again, there's a limit to that. If you're taking three, four weeks and you're still not coming back, then that's too long. But I think you know A week or you know, around that is a good time to get to have a look and have a think.

Speaker B: I mean, my advice, a week really, like don't take longer than a week to come back. Unless for some reason you're being held up because there's some legal information, you're having a lawyer review it, that kind of thing. And you're communicating that back proactively as well. If you take longer for a week than a week and you're dark and no one can hear from you, they're just going to assume you're leveraging their offer to, to secure another. And that's not a good way. Even if you make this part awkward, that means you're, you're joining in an awkward way as well. And that's just not the right foot you want to set off on.

Speaker A: And that's such a good point, Dan. So to come in because it's so, so good. Again, we see this a lot with people. They're negotiating another offer and rather than just say that, they say nothing, do not do this, do not take what just. Again, even if it's update is no update. You know, update is I'm going to look at that this weekend. I'm not gonna have a chance before then. So look, you're not gon hear me for three days, but that's why that's positive, that's firm. Um, that's clear. Just sort of. And again, I don't know why people do this. I think it comes from some deep rooted fear of not wanting to upset someone or they think that if they say nothing to you, they can come back two weeks later if the other thing doesn't fall through and just still get the job. It's such a risky strategy because if somebody goes quiet on you for a while, the assumption is they're not interested, uh, they've got another offer. Uh, and they're also kind of bad behaviors. Right. Like a bad actor. Right. Again, I've seen this more than I'm surprising amount from people. They just go quiet, just say, look, I've got another really good offer. I, uh, like both companies. I'm honestly just considering between the two, people can handle that. Again, in some ways it could galvanize the other party to make it even better off. Or it could be very much in your interest. Yeah, okay. You might say there's some risk of they walk away, but I would certainly say the risk of them losing interest from no contact is much higher than the risk of them hearing that other people want to hire you and you have a high value in the market and that their offer wasn't good enough that it's made it a no brainer because then they can ask questions like what would you say yes to? And again then they might become more competitive or they might sort of start to say like hey, well what can you say yes to? But that's a positive progression rather than the sort of the uh, ghosting. I don't know if it happened in dating or work first but I hear that ghosting on the apps is a big thing on the dating apps. And don't ghost on apps apps and don't suddenly don't ghost in executive hiring, uh, processes.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Uh, I think I do dating advice as well Dan. That's why just broadcast podcast, separate mission one dating advice podcast.

Speaker B: I'll tune in. Uh, not that I need it but

Speaker A: uh, Dad's a happily married mass.

Speaker B: Yeah but I want to hear the advice you would give out. I uh, think it would be uh. Okay, so look, let's make this separate podcast. But seriously, if you be mindful of the things you are signaling back to your potential employer in this part of the process, they will remember how you operated. And it's not just going dark or ghosting and a timeline, but it's also maybe asking for non standard things that aren't. Maybe uh, a startup can't afford, um, you know, executive coaching, first class plane tickets, some egregious high cash compensation that's just going to kill their burn rate. Even for early stage startups, if you take a long time in the process to come back, that also signals something to them because they're trying to move fast, they're trying to beat out competitors trying to gain market share. So just be mindful of the team you're trying to join and the culture that they are in and the environment you'd be joining and make sure that you're a fit because you also don't want to join and be the wrong hire for them. Or you're right. I think that's um, uh, that sets everyone back as well. Right. So think about the place you're trying to be and the offer you need to stay and be happy and retained and it behooves the company to also give you an offer that's going to keep you happy and retained so you're not recruited out of there as well and so trust that there's goodwill out there. Uh, for the most part, maybe some companies are predatory, none of our clients, but trust that you're in good Hands. Let's talk about Canada negotiation. So you're a candidate, you have an offer, it's not perfect. You want to join the company, you need to express what you need to join. What's the best way of going about this? What's the best way of thinking about a low offer? What advice would you give here?

Speaker A: Again, it's a, it's a common situation, right? Like it's one you hope. If we followed the advice before, we hope we haven't got there. Right, because you've been clear about your expectations, there's been good communication, et cetera, et cetera. But let's say you've got to this point now where you've received the offer and it's disappointing. Our advice is be honest and I think that's a good place to come from. It's good gravitas place to come from. And be very clear in your reasons of why you're disappointed. Again, whether it doesn't offer you the kind of upside you are hoping considering, let's say you're going to a C level role from a VP level role. So you've got an expectation around. Well, I thought there'd be this kind of uplift or again, maybe you're being expected to do something like relocate. So you said, look, this is a lot of personal, personal energy, whatever it is, right. You're going to have reasons that back up that disappointment and go to them again. In the spirit of I want to join, I'm really excited about this role. I don't want the compensation to be in the way. However, it's fair that I get paid what I feel I'm worth with and this is going to make me happy and make this decision easy for me. So I think be honest in that communication. Again, you can use intermediaries. Again if there's a headhunter involved, they can be a good sounding board and get advice from say like, hey, I'm not happy. Like be as honest as you are with them and trust that there's like a little bit of ah, a firebreak between you and them in terms of like the emotional side. They can go back and say, look, they're not happy and you know, but that takes it a little less personal. Perhaps reduce that risk of a personal conflict. If there isn't though, again, I think it's just about. You can just be very sort of objective about it. Uh, and you must be as well, you must be because again, from an employer point of view, they don't want you joining. You might say, yes, but Then in a year's time somebody else gives you a call and offers you more and then they lose you. And you know, there's a lot of time and energy waste for you and your employer, your future employers. So it's really good to get upfront and I think just be unafraid and very calm and confident in saying that that's for the client's own good as well. So I think having your data, uh, being clear and always with every negotiation, the golden rule is being prepared to walk away, right? And again, we're on the other side of this. We want people to say yes, but actually we don't want you to say yes and then leave in six months time, right? It's always the worst case scenario for everyone involved. So I think any negotiation you've got to be prepared to walk away and say look, I'm uh, not going to accept this and then see, because it might be they can't afford you, right? Like it might be after all, all this, they still can't afford you yet. Because again, it's better to say no then because you never know. In six months time they might say, look, actually we've just closed load more deals, business is booming, can you come back in? We really need you and actually we can up the offer or whatever it is.

Speaker B: That would also add to that. If you counter and they give you what you want, you must say yes. If you say, hey, look, I have to have this really high compensation or this additional equity and the founder goes to the board, the compensation committee, whatever, and they get you what you need, you can't then say no or renegotiate. You have to say yes because you're asking them to spend clinical and social capital to get you to get you where you need to be. You're asking them to spend time and put their neck on the line to make this happen. So if you counter and they give it to you, you have to say yes.

Speaker A: My opinion, I think, uh, that's the point, right? It's don't counter, uh, unless you're in that mentality again, maybe something terrible happens or there's various reasons, but probably if you're going to say no at that point, you should never have asked to the counter and you will look very bad. You're going to burn a lot of bridges in that scenario. So again, if you got some doom feeling of like I should never have asked for a counter again, be honest and get out of there. But, but don't really avoid being in that situation. Don't put yourself in that situation in the first place. That's a great. And we tend to end this, Dan, so hopefully you've got some tips there from how to handle think about compensation outside of an offer or outside of a hiring process. How to think about that first call, how do you bring up and when to bring up compensation? And then finally we talked about the business end of it. How do you think about negotiating that, structuring it, understanding the offer, uh, that you're being made there?

Speaker B: Uh, I was saying there's a lot there. Thank you for tuning in. If you have any questions or if there's anything you want us to go more in depth on, you can always send us a note or a message on LinkedIn. If there's a lengthy, meaty topic, maybe we'll cover that in a subsequent podcast. Or we'll just give you, uh, an answer directly as well. But appreciate any questions or thoughts. Uh,

Speaker A: that's another episode of Mission 1, the Executive Edge. If you found this valuable hit, subscribe and leave us a review. It helps other professionals discover the show,

Speaker B: have a question about executive hiring, or want to share your own experience? Reach out on LinkedIn or visit Mission1IO podcast. We read everything, and your stories often inspire future episodes.

Speaker A: The Executive Edge is brought to you by Mission One, where we specialize in placing senior leaders at tech, entertainment and AI companies. Learn more at Mission1io.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening and we hope to see you again soon on the Executive Edge.