Best of MTC: Brian Collins x Chris Do Q&A Session - Recorded at COLLINS: in Brooklyn, New York

Speaker A: Welcome back to another episode of Meet two Creatives. This is a very special, exciting episode as I'm here with two gentlemen that are heroes of mine. Thank you guys for the. For the privilege of doing this. We have, uh, sir, Brian Collins here.

Speaker B: Hello, Rob.

Speaker A: And we have Chris Doe here as well.

Speaker C: Hey, Rob.

Speaker A: We have taken questions from the Internet and thank, uh, you to everyone who submitted. Thank you to Chris and the people at the Future, and, uh, Brian and all the people here at Collins. So we've taken questions from the Internet. I will pose the question and whoever wants to take it. If you guys want to go back and forth, I'm sure we'll figure out some sort of something, uh, here. So this is a series of questions. I think all of them are really great. This is from my good friend, from my very first job in design. This is, uh, Alexander Ortiz. Alex Ortiz. And Chris, he's a huge fan of yours. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna leave things off with you and seeing as you're our guest. They say fake it till you make it. How much of that is true and applicable when you are chasing your dream job as a creative? Go ahead, take it away, Chris.

Speaker C: I think people have a problem with that expression because they interpret it literally. Uh, the word fake. Nobody wants to be fake. Disingenuous. And I think that's where the real problem is. But I like that expression. I believe in that expression. Because before you're a professional, you have to think like one. You have to act like one. When you graduated school, you put your name on a business card, you start a business. You've not been a business person before, you've not done professional work before. And there's going to be a period in time in which your skills need to catch up to your ambition. And I think it's important for you to set your mindset towards building what it is that you want and then to manifest that into reality. And that's why I don't have a problem with it. But I can understand why people are like, will never fake anything and never over promise something, but the first time you do something is the first time you do it. And you can't get that opportunity unless you express that to someone and you communicate it to the world.

Speaker B: I have a problem with the implication that it's about deceit. We're in New York, everybody. So that's the sound of sirens. No, no, it's fine. Um, we're in lovely downtown Brooklyn. So that's the noise that you get on Cape Cod. We get birds and the waves here. You get police cars. Yeah. Um, I have a puzzle with the, um. I just. I don't like the fake it till you make it premise. Um, it implies that you are somehow phony or implies that you're, um, something deceptive in what you're trying to do. Now that said, uh, everyone has to start somewhere and you have to take a leap before usually people are ready to give it to you. So I lucked out very early when I was at Massa Art and I was given a project to do a freelance project for a company at the Times, huge called Digital Equipment Corporation in Massachusetts. I was living at my parents home. I'd not yet graduated from school, so I was living at home. So I rigged up a. I didn't want anyone to know that I was basically 21, although that didn't have a studio. So I rigged up a phone, put the phone in the kitchen so my mom would answer the phone. And I had my office in my bedroom. I had Alexa lamp, I had a drafting table, and I put all my supplies under the bed. And my mom would answer the phone. Brian Collins Design Group. And she would say, my ask is calling. And the person would say, it was Anne Morton from Digital. And she said, just a minute, Ann. And she had a little hold thing on it. She got. She was in the kitchen making dinner or like lunch or something.

Speaker A: Supper.

Speaker B: Making supper, dinner. And she goes, Brian's Ann Wharton from Digital. She's, um, on. She's on the call. I'm like, okay. And I would just pick up the phone. I go, hi, Ann. And she goes, your assistant is awesome. I mean, is that your. She's great. I've known her a long time. Yeah. So I was doing work for Global Corporation. I was 21 years old. And, uh, they were giving me a lot of business. And the impression that I had in the system gave the impression that I was substantial. So it worked. And then I was able to grow. And I had another person. And I had another person. You know, mom did that job for about a year, and then I eventually had someone who really did that job. So is that faking it? I didn't. I didn't. Like, I didn't.

Speaker C: Yes. The answer is yes. Brian. How is 100% deception? Your mom, your kitchen, my assistant. I believe that is what people are concerned about when they say, fake it till you make it. You did fake it, but you made it.

Speaker B: I. Well, she was my assistant. It was my office.

Speaker C: Did you pay her?

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cookies and Kisses. Well, let's just.

Speaker C: Did you 1099 her?

Speaker B: Uh, no, I did not 1099 her.

Speaker A: Oh my God.

Speaker B: Um, I had to show that I was a going concern.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: I didn't. And I, and other people were calling me and so, and I wasn't around. My mom would answer the phone. So it worked. Um, because I never wanted to be seen as a. Ever. I hate the word free. I never, I've never positioned myself as a freelancer. I hate the word why? Because it starts with the word free and I've never used that word. So I never wanted to position myself as a freelancer or a single practitioner. I always wanted to, ah, create, um, a group of people around me. It changed everything. I started that when I was 21. Wow.

Speaker C: Hold on a second. Your story just conflicted what you said about how you hate that. That term because it involves some form of deception.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Please explain yourself.

Speaker B: I didn't think, I think, I didn't think there was any deception. I honestly didn't. So if you m. I didn't. I just. She answered the phone, she said, brian. She said, brian Collins Design Group. I didn't say. I didn't see she wasn't my mother. She just answered the phone, right? And she said, this is Mary. And like that's. She said, she's awesome. I said, I've known her a very long time.

Speaker C: All, uh, right.

Speaker A: We have more questions to get to here.

Speaker B: So in other words, I didn't consider the seat. I considered. I considered it, um, convenient.

Speaker A: This is also from Alexander Ortiz, who is a huge fan of the future, and Brian as well. So, uh, as a creative, do you think it's more valuable being a jack of all trades or consistently good at one specialty? Brian. What? Uh, we'll let you take this one first.

Speaker B: I think this is a false question. I think it's neither. Or I think what you need to do is kind of put your head down, find out what you like to do the most, learn pretty early on if you're any good at it, determine, uh, what you like doing, and uh, what you're good at can make you money. And if you do those things, you just keep on doing that. And then in order to grow and expand, then you have to add other kinds of abilities. At some point you have to learn how to read a balance sheet. Some point you have to learn how to sell your work. At some point you have to learn how to lead a team of people. Is that becoming a jack of all trades? Is that just expanding what you Know, so you can continue to do what you like to do. Right. And I had to do all these other things because I, uh, wanted to continue to do what I do. Um, and so I don't. I'm, I'm good at a number of things. I think I started out as a solo practitioner. I got bored by that. I wanted to add two more people. I had three more people by the time I sold my company to my partner when I was 28. We were about 20 or so people. And you learn a lot in that process. So, um, I don't consider myself a jack of all trades, but I had to expand my skill set in order to do, in order to do the kind of work I wanted to do.

Speaker C: But if that wasn't a false question, Brian, and you had to pick one or the other, especially for someone starting out, what would you advise to them?

Speaker B: Become really, really, really good at one thing that you love doing and put your head down, um, and become unignorable at that one thing.

Speaker A: Do you agree?

Speaker C: I do agree. I think people who ask that question underestimate how hard it is to be good. They think you can put in a year's worth of study or a year's worth of practice and, and be really good. And it's difficult to be good. Forget about being great. It's just, it's hard to be good. My general advice for people is that early on in your career and you can take any route you want, but you probably accelerate much faster if you find focus to get rid of a lot of other stuff. I'm not even just talking about in the field of design, but the things that pull away your time from your craft. And you need to get good at your craft as you age and you mature and you move up in management positions in leadership roles. If you wind up running a company, you're going to want to develop new sets of skills because it's required of you now. And at this point in time, you're going to slowly morph and shift into a generalist because you need to learn business principles, you need to learn marketing, you have to learn strategy, client services, all that stuff. You have to learn. And so this is where you build up on a foundation where you're skillful and you know your craft and, and then you add to that on this really strong foundation. The thing that I admire a lot about Ryan is he's at a very high level management position, but he can get down into the weeds if he needs to and talk about the work and do the Work in ways that only someone who's practiced their craft can

Speaker B: m. The desire to become great is such a dangerous trap to fall into. When you're young, ambition is an important thing because it'll give you some measure. And you're usually benchmarking a famous designer, a famous artist, somebody who's seen before, oh, I want to be like him. And that's okay. Then you're ambitious. At some point you have to change the desire for an ambition into a vision. For something that puts you over the horizon, for something you can't see, something you see around the corner because you're stuck on an ambition. You'll meet that ambition and you go, what do I do now? I could not agree more with Chris. You've got to find something that you really love to do, something that pays you and become very, very good at that. Put your head down and do it every day. I've grown up with so many people who, um, they have cleaning companies, uh, or they have a small shop. I grew up with the Bellinos. And the Bellinos had a donut, had like two donut shops. And Mr. Bellino would get up at 4 o' clock in the morning and start making the donuts every morning. At five o' clock it was time to make donuts every morning. Mr. Baglino did that. He had two coffee shops. He put his kids through college. He made the best donuts. He didn't worry about doing great donuts. But he became famous in our hometown and he became a crucial part of the community. And uh, as children run, I think they now run it. They're the best donuts in town. And he took great pride in his work. He didn't want to become Ray Kroc. He wanted to run and make really good donuts. And um, um, he became an indelible part of the community. Do you want to have a goal for yourself? Sure. But you learn your craft by going in and doing it. Not just week after week or month after month, but like year after year after year after year. And that the only way you get mastery is by putting your head down and doing it for a decade or more. And you have to play a long game.

Speaker C: There's, there's something I really admire about Japanese culture in that it doesn't really matter what your station in life is. It's for, for them there's nobility in doing humble things well.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And I love that. Like if you're making French fries, just do the best job you can and, and master that, huh? That Craft. And like I said before, I think people today, because we're so used to instant feedback you, instant fame, fast fashion, fast food, that we think to achieve some level of mastery and skill, it's. It's an easy thing. And how do I know this? Because all you have to do is look at all the marketing that comes from companies that target young men, especially how to get results really fast without work, without. Without effort, without money, without skill or talent or discipline or discipline. It's incredible. And they fall for it. And so hopefully somebody's gonna listen to this and say, okay, you know what? It doesn't really matter what you do. Just get good at that thing. And it's gonna take a long time for you to get good. But once you acquire those skills, go ahead and start thinking about adding other things. And it's okay to then be more broad with your interests. And I think that's what makes you a more interesting person.

Speaker B: You can become famous very quickly. I've talked about this before is young people conflate fame with mastery. And it's a very dangerous thing. Fame is a spotlight. Mastery is the sun. And the sun rises and sets and rises and sets. Light goes on and off. And I implore anyone who's listening, who's particularly young, as you put your head down. Mastery takes a while. There are a lot of people who are very, very famous who are not very good. And there are people who are masters who are not famous. I would sooner be a master and be proud of the work that I do than be famous. But the thing about it is, it turns out if you put your head down, you become a master. A strange thing happens is people start to navigate to you because they know this guy or this woman is, or whoever they might be, they're really good at doing this thing you should call them. And what ends up happening is you. People start to find out that you're really good at something. And then when you open your mouth after doing something for 10, 8, 9, 10, 12, God knows, 20 years, when you open your mouth, you speak with a, ah, dazzling sense of authenticity and mastery. And in a way that no one else can touch. And that comes through every pore, every word, because you've learned how to do something really well. And then if you become excellent at it, what ends up happening is people start finding their way to you.

Speaker A: Do you guys ever have people that come to work for you and maybe like that you could see some potential and you can see that they're inevitable, but they have a sense of Entitlement. And how do you get through to that? Chris, I'll let you take the lead on this one.

Speaker C: This has not happened to me in a while because as we create more content, I think people get an understanding of our culture and the way we work.

Speaker B: You scare people.

Speaker C: Okay? You can say we scare people. That's fine. Uh, you know what you're getting, right? Um, but there was a period in time I had interns working for us during the summer, and there was a crop of five or six interns who were coming in. It was wonderful. There was this one person, uh, and she was asked to do what everybody else was asked to do, which is there is production work. And we were doing paper craft, which I get excited about, because to see someone, uh, like an artist, a master turner, sheet of paper into a sculpture, that is freaking cool. What I wouldn't have given to be in a room with a master and learn from them and actually get my hands dirty. I could tell this person in particular was just really dragging their feet and had a little sour face. And my. My creative director is like, what is going on with this one intern? And I had to do something, which I've never done before, because interns, we don't pay them a lot, but we do pay them something. I was like, I think I might have to fire an internal. This is nuts. And it's mostly because she was poisoning the batch of apples. And it was just like, I don't want this to infect everyone called into the room. I said, this is a really strange conversation. I've never done this before, but I notice and tell me if I'm crazy. You really don't want to do this work. It seems like you have a preconception as to the kind of work you want to do, and you've made your mind up that this is not what you want to do. And I looked at her in the eye and I said, I need you to tell me the truth right now. And she says, you're right. I don't want to do this work. I said, so here's the problem. Everybody's doing this work. And if you're saying, I'm not going to do this, there is not a place for you here. Do you understand? And she started to tear up, and she said, chris, uh, I'm going to work on this. And despite my instincts, I was like, okay, I'm giving you another shot at this. Less than a week later, I'm like, no, those are just words out of your mouth. You've made that decision. So we had to let her go. Just had to let her go. And so here's the wild thing. Many semesters later, she graduates, and I see her, and I was thinking, she's going to give me the old side eye. And, you know, I'm like. But she didn't. She came up to me and she said I was not mature enough. I wanted to just thank you for the opportunity, and I'm sorry I let you down. And to me, that's a sign of growth and maturity. But it's very rare that that would happen, that a young person would come in with certain expectations. I can usually spot them a mile away. And I don't want people like that working with us, you know? So here's the weird thing. I own the company. I take out the trash. I'll clean up your mess that you think you're too good for, because cleaning, uh, service is going to take care of. No, have some pride in your workspace. And let's try to keep things clean and organized. And I will do that. And I write your paycheck. I mean, I sign your paycheck. And if I don't think I'm too good to. Too good to do this. How dare you come in here and think you're too good to do this? I don't even get it.

Speaker B: There are no grunts at Collins. Everyone's a grunt. I'm a grunt. Baron's a grunt. Leland's a grunt. The creative directors are grunts. We all chop wood and carry water. Everyone here, if you don't want to chop wood and carry water, you don't belong here. I was taught how to draw Helvetica and Gaudi in a pencil and pen. Uh, uh, for a full year, that's all I did. In Marjorie Katz's class in Introduction to Typography, I was taught how to draw those typefaces. Then I had to inked them by hand. And then she would come, I had to present it to her. And she had a magnifying glass that was like a cartoon one. It was like a photo. She had a giant magnifying glass with a light on it. And she would look at it. And because she knew it, she was a typographer. She was, like, in her 60s. And she went around it and she would mark it up with a red pencil. She had to start all over again. It doesn't come below the baseline. The counter isn't right. The descender's off. And all I did for one, almost one semester was I, uh, had the second semester I had to write the word song S O S and then a G, the ascender G by hand in Helvetica and then in Gaudi, perfectly. And so when you learn how to do that, when you're 18 years old, what happens is that knowledge becomes physiological, it becomes physical. Because what happens is it goes from your hand to your fingers, to your hand to your wrist, to your elbow, to your arm, to your cerebellum. And so because of that practice, I knew how hard it is to design a piece of typography. Therefore, I also know the craft that's involved and the effort and the work that's involved into doing what it is, um, we do. So I can sense pretty early and by the way, I figured it out and I loved, I hated doing it, but I love doing it. Is Chris can teach everybody knowledge. He can teach people how to sell. He can teach people how to reconceptualize their careers and their trajectory. Chris runs classes now that are, that are where people subscribe to them from around the world about helping people reimagine their careers and then the skills that you need in order to support that reimagination. Okay, Chris can teach all those things. What Chris cannot teach is desire. It's not possible. You either have it or you don't have it. Desire is the thing that makes you stay and figure out what that kerning pair should be. Is that the right color? Is that the right word? Is that the right form? Is that the right way I should prepare that deck? Is the thing that keeps you going. Can it be better? You either have that desire or you don't. I can sniff that out. I'm like a heat seeking missile. And I can find out whether you have that desire or not. And if you have that desire, then all the shitty stuff, doing the paper craft, cleaning up a mess, they didn't even think twice about doing it. People just do it because they're looking for a larger value. They go, I want to do this. And they go, that's, oh, uh, that's a mess. I'll pick it up because I'm aiming for the bigger thing. So I have a good sense of when people have that sense of desire and they see themselves in bigger and larger worlds. So those are the people who we hire and we can spot them. They're rare, but we can spot them.

Speaker A: Kate Johnson. Uh, not Johnston Johnson. Kate Johnson asks.

Speaker B: Hi, Kate.

Speaker A: I actually have years of experience, but with little stuff. I'm now finally taking the classes and getting the Certifications to prove I can do things in Adobe. I will soon be looking to get a job with an agency. What impresses them?

Speaker B: I'm looking for people who love what they do, looking for people who are willing to be challenged. I'm looking for people who have three character, which is what? What do you do when no one's looking at you? Talent. People don't talk about talent. There are people who are talented and there are people who are not talented. And so I look for talent. Talent is people who can see the same thing everybody else does and pull a different pattern out of it. Everyone looks at the same information, they look at the same pattern, they look at the same context, and they find something in that that no one else has seen. We're all looking at it and they're able to see a pattern that no one else does, and they pull it out. So first is character. Second is talent. And the last thing is a desire. Do you want it and do you have that desire to really pursue it? Uh, so those are the three things. Desire, character, and talent. And when those things come together, it's dangerous.

Speaker C: What kind of question would you ask to discern character from somebody if you're interviewing them face to face? Here's my portfolio. They sit in a room with you.

Speaker B: I don't think they're a series of questions. I think it's a sense of how they greet you, how they talk about you, their level of sincerity that they have. Are they vulnerable as, uh, they talk about their work? Are they generous in talking about who their teacher was, who their classmates were? Are they generous in sharing credit? Do they talk about, um, the difference between being, uh, inspired, being influenced, and when they're imitating, are they conscious of how they navigate the world and making their work, and can they articulate it?

Speaker C: Before we started this podcast, there's a whole room of people here. A lot of them look like non native English speakers. As far as I could tell, they weren't. Okay. And so they're from other countries. Okay, beautiful. I'm speaking from my own life experiences here. When you're not a native English speaker and, uh, being Asian, uh, we tend to keep to ourselves. A little shy meeting the Brian Collins. I'm scared, I'm shaking, I'm sweating my hands. English is not, um, my native language. How am I going to break through? Obviously they did because they're working here. I'm trying to bring up a very real thing.

Speaker B: It's my obligation to break through to them. I look at their work and their Work is like, what is this? And I can see it. I can see it in the work. And then we have a conversation with them on the phone. And I can sense it in their energy. Sometimes their English is halting and broken, but you can always sense there's their enthusiasm. I can also sense that they desire it. And they really, really, in many cases, they just. This is where they. You know, I'm lucky. This is a place that they all wanted to work. And they approached us and we met them. And it was my obligation to make them feel like they belonged to mine, even if I didn't hire them. My job, when you come in this door right there, my job is to make you feel at home from the minute you walk in here. That's my obligation, particularly for people who are not from here. You belong is the biggest gift that you can give to somebody and that you make them feel like they're comfortable. You make them feel like you're there. I'm, uh, their peer. I'm not here. I'm not, you know, 30,000ft above them. I'm shoulder to shoulder with them. That's absolutely what we do. And anyone at this company who treats someone who walks in that door, who's trying to be in their career, and they treat them like anything that's anything less than we would treat the most important CEO or the most important celebrated artists or colleague of mine does not work at this company. We're privileged to have all those people come here, and you flip it upside down. And I talk to those people not as if they're loaded with potential, but you talk to them as if they are. I don't hire for their. I don't hire those people for their potentiality. I hired them for their inevitability. And when you hire people from their inevitability, the way you talk about them is very different. The way you talk to them. So you don't talk to them about who they are. You talk to them in the context of who they could become and who they will become. And it's a change of the entire dialogue. So I see those are all leaders 10 years from now literally leading this profession. And I see it. I've seen it again and again. So you taught. You treat them like leaders to be. That changes the entire dialogue. And then when they see that you see them that way, then lots of other things open up. Did I answer your question?

Speaker C: You did. So you make them feel included, invited, belong, welcome like they belong.

Speaker B: Inclusion and belonging are two different things. And it's Easy to have inclusion. Oh, come on in. It's another thing to say, what do you need? How can I help? And it's often helping them answer questions that they don't know how to ask yet. M. Uh.

Speaker C: And through that, maybe the universal language is designed then. So with their sometimes broken English design, your ability to make them feel like they belong, you can discern this is Collins material or this is not.

Speaker B: I can figure that out pretty quickly.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: Even if they're speaking in broken English. Actually, it's called a gift. It's quite a gift to figure out broken English because their language is powerful.

Speaker C: Yes. So you brought up something else. I want to just highlight it. Uh, I think I heard this sense of self awareness, so that when I'm talking about a piece of work, I'm not going to pretend to you this is an original thing. This is heavily inspired by this. And for them to know that so that they're not trying to push something over you or pull something over you, they can't.

Speaker B: Because I've studied design history now for four years.

Speaker A: They see the library and they're like,

Speaker B: you're sitting in a room with 5,000 books, uh, you know, the album catalog. And, um, I have a dangerous photographic memory visually. And so I know, like, I've been looking at. I chose to become a graphic designer at 10. So I've been looking at graphic design now for a long time. So I understand antecedents and I know what they're referencing. So I try to get them to understand. I try to have a conversation about what are their influences, what do they want to make, what are they inspired by, and when they can start to articulate that, um, or speak to it, that's when I get excited. Sometimes they can't. But I know that they're pulling from interesting things. And if they're broken English, I'd sooner hire someone who's from another country, whose work is dazzling, who can't. They can't quite figure out how to talk about it, but they can absorb a brief and make amazing stuff and help them figure out how to bring that muscle and bring that creativity to life here. Because that ability is rare. Learning how to speak English, you can figure that out. Learning how to present your work, you can figure that out. But the ability to absorb a brief and create something that was not on the brief, that's transcendent is so rare that I, uh, that when I find people like that, uh, I'm like, so their English is broken. So what everyone, most people who came to The United States. Their English was poking. To work here, you need to know your skill in typography. I will not hire you if you don't know how to work with typography. I won't do it.

Speaker C: Why is typography so important? Why is it a telltale sign that they can design or they can't?

Speaker B: It's language. And graphic design is meant to be understandable in many cases. Red. And if you don't know how to current a sentence, if you don't know how to, like, organize a page with words on it that has contrast and meaning and hierarchy and sequence, you learn that. Generally, if you've gone to a good design school or you have a knack for it, um, uh, we need that here. You need to know enough of that. We can refine it. We can, but you have to have the fundamentals. You don't have the fundamentals, you don't get in, you don't go to the next level. You've got your typographics. If someone has great typographic skills and they're bright, they can do it. Um, they know how to use typography, um, really use typography in a way that sings. And then they are adept at color and adept at image making. And they're smart and they. And they read Give me. And they have the desire. Give me that. And they can go almost anywhere. I had a kid who studied typography since 14 years old. He showed up in my office, he was 17 years old. He designed an entire book mimicking what he'd studied, mimicking the work of Massimo Vignelli perfectly. He was 17. He understood the rhythms, scale, contrast and grid. I was blown away. And we hired him as an intern at 17. Talk about desire. He said, I'd like to work for you. I said, okay, when you're in New York, show up. And he cried out from my assistant Katja, that I was going to be in the office one day and he showed up at 9 o' clock and he said, I want a half an hour with Brian Collins. He waited in the office and then Tatya said, brian's not open until like 2:00'. Clock. And I said, take care of him, get him some food, get him breakfast, get him lunch, and I'll see him at 2:00'. Clock. And he showed up and he showed his stuff. And I said he was amazing. And I introduced him to the other creative directors. We hired him as an intern. But he took his own initiative at 17 to show up, took a flight, came to New York sat in my office until he wanted to do it and he had the stuff. So that was talent, that was desire, and turned out to be character as well.

Speaker A: This question from Mark Savant, uh, is, I'm assuming that's how you say that. What impact does the metaverse have on the design space? So, Chris, I think you'd be good for this.

Speaker C: I think sometimes it's a little dangerous to jump on the latest buzzy words, and sometimes companies with a lot of influence will drop terms and all of a sudden everybody's attuned to this because they're the whales and we, we kind of follow that. I, uh, talked to a brilliant woman from Australia. She explained to me what the metaverse is, and so I'll reference that conversation. She said, somewhere between the physical and the digital world is the metaverse. It's the digital. Okay, so just smash two words together. So that's very broad. And so to me, if we, if we look at design as courses, um, of like this is Herbert, I think Herbert Simon, who defined design as taking, uh, courses of action to go from an existing state to preferred state or condition. Then designers can look at this space as opportunity. But it's just another canvas, it's not just another playground. And if you're a well rounded, smart designer in the truest sense, not just concerned about form and colors, but you're really trying to solve a problem, then this is just another opportunity. That's all it is. And it's important to be aware of these things, but not always be the person chasing the latest trend. Oftentimes what I see people doing is they weren't, they didn't catch the current opportunity and so they just keep chasing one thing after the other. They never get good. They miss all trains because they're, they're just, they've got, um, uh, what is it, this squirrel syndrome.

Speaker A: That's all.

Speaker C: That's what it is.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Right. A ferret. A ferret or squirrel. It's just like the next little thing and you're just chasing one thing after the other. I'll tell you a little cautionary tale.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: And I just want people to think about this. I, I used to, um, be right. When I got to school, I was freelancing as a designer at one of the hottest post production design companies in la. One of the hottest. Like everybody that wanted to do work worked at this one place. And they were on, I think, Santa Monica in Hollywood somewhere, right. Company called Novacom. And then Novacom, um, caught wind that Dreamworks was opening A campus in Marina Del Rey, Mar Vista area. And all these companies that wanted to be associated with them started to uproot and move their offices across town to the west side. And so here's something they didn't know. That the proposed office for Dreamworks was on some protected land, the wetlands. And a lot of people protested there. We do not want you here. So these people uprooted, moved their company to be close to something that never actually materialized. I'm not sure that that was the beginning of the end for them. But this once beloved company that was doing beautiful international design work fizzled out within a matter of years to a shallow core or hollow core version of themselves. And I feel like sometimes when we're talking about NFTs, the metaverse, or whatever, the next thing is going to be, it's like we're just chasing that Dreamworks.

Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. It's shiny, it's new, it can be distracting. However, it's also full of promise. The Metaverse has been here since Lascaux in France, when we discovered that those cave painters were actually creating those images in the wall. So they were designed to be, uh, activated by light. Do you know this? What they discovered only a few years ago is that when it put light and they brought candlelight down there and they moved it, the images flickered. What they were is very early animation. They're trying to replicate what they saw in the real world inside a dark cave, away from sunlight. It was purposely put in the back of a cave where there was enough sunlight so they could activate this metaverse. They wanted to create the outside world. We're not quite sure what the ritual was, but it was an attempt to recreate reality synthetically. This has been. We've. It goes to Greek drama, it goes to something that's on Broadway, to the movies. We're built for the Metaverse. That's one of the reasons it's so compelling. We can drop any of our, uh, sense of reality instantly if the story is good and we're convinced that something interesting is happening. Thousands of millions of us around the world, billions of us, go into movie theaters, we suspend all disbelief, and we go to Valhalla. We go to Middle Earth, uh, we go to the, uh, Marvel Universe, we watch Batman, we watch a movie from the 1930s. Watch. Well, what's a story where suddenly people break into song and don't think there's anything wrong with it? And so we live in the metaverse. All this is, is the most recent iteration of something that human Beings already do, which we like, creating synthetic realities and it's very easy for us to live within them.

Speaker A: That's perfect. We're going to keep moving along here. You guys are doing amazing. I love it. Moussa, Hachemi, what's the best thing to start with as a beginner? Of course, learning new skills is a must. But how can someone avoid to be stuck in this phase? Is learning soft skills and other business related stuff necessary from the beginning or will this be confusing more than helping?

Speaker C: I hear a couple different questions there, Moussa. One is, is there such the thing as too much learning? And there is a time to apply your learning. And there's another question in there, which is, do I need to learn business skills while I'm learning design skills when I'm getting started? And Brian, we were talking about this in your blue lounge in the loft.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And you said something to me is like, I am done with graphic design, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I'm here to transform people's businesses. And if that's what you're looking for, I might be your person.

Speaker B: And I use graphic design in the service of that.

Speaker C: So for me, when I was in Design School 20 plus years ago, I ignored all the business stuff. I ignored the marketing stuff because I just wanted to be a designer who made forms. Like uh, a form maker. That's what I really wanted to do. And so I kind of tuned out in those classes, uh, maybe to, to my detriment because as soon as I started a business I was in deep trouble because I didn't know anything about marketing, sales or negotiations. And it was a lot of trial by fire. So I think if you can imagine where you want to be after you graduate, what your timeline might be that might inform the kinds of things you want to learn now there, there probably is such a thing as becoming an information hoarder that people can become addicted just to learning. And you become an academic before you actually do the work. And if, if that's what you want to do, then by all means pursue that. But if you actually want to get in the field and practice the craft, you got to get your hands dirty. You got to go make something. You have to create artifacts of what you've learned. That's how we, at least I'm imagining I was speaking from Brian. Like how we can tell you know what you're doing. Like when we see the beautiful use of negative space and your choice of two kind of unnatural pairings of two different typefaces. But you make it work and you make it sing. And at least for me, if I look at that and said, I've never actually thought of using Bembo that way, that's really cool, you know? Or you've made Helvetica feel like this, uh, this classic typeface, um, that feels romantic to me. And I didn't think you could do that. And you've done a wonderful job. And the only way that you can do this is you actually have to make something. So I think it's important for you to, especially if you want to create a business, to learn business skills to some degree so that you're not out there in the world and just trying to figure it out after the fact. And if you want to impact businesses, if you want to design businesses and not just design graphics, then, yeah, I think you need to think about those things.

Speaker B: Let me build on what Chris said. You've got to see design beyond just doing type combinations or color combinations or finding the right illustrator or choosing the right image or developing the right code or making the motion work. That's a very. That is the foundational things that you need. That's the craft. But you're. If you see yourself as a designer, you have to define design the way that like. Or you're going to find your own definition of design. Mine has been design is not what I make. Design is what I make possible. That puts an orientation on both the output, which is images, graphics, animation, websites, environments, architecture. But it also, but it puts most of the emphasis on the outcome. What do we want to make happen? If you're a designer, you have to see, I think you talked about intentional change. Then you have to see your ability to work in designer, in business as a design problem. And if you want a career, you have to figure out what's the context that you're going to be working in. And so you have to figure out what the map of the territory is. And if you don't want, if you don't want to succeed as a designer, then you'll ignore that. It's part and parcel of the same thing. For the most part, as a designer, you'll be working in the context of business. And so if you ignore it, you will hobble yourself. So you have to see the understanding of business. You have to become, in my mind, you have to become too fluent in two languages. You have to become fluent in your craft and how you create work. You have to become sufficiently fluent, fluent to talk to a client about the meaning it has on the, on their other company that has, uh, Hired you. It's your obligation to make them understand your value. It's not their obligation to understand yours. If you go into a company and you constantly hear the clients don't get it, the clients don't get it, the clients don't get it. That's it. That's at a company that doesn't get it. And they will not be in business for long because they think it's the. It's the. It's the obligation of the client to understand what you do. Clients who CEOs and founders, they didn't go to study Comparative literature. They didn't understand Introduction to Color Theory. They studied supply chain management, finance, operations, economics. They are absolutely not fluent in what it is that we do. And so how can we. Are you fluent in economics?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Are you fluent in supply chain management? They don't assume that you are. Why should we assume that they're fluent in the language of design or brand? They're not. So one of your obligations is to make sure that you build a bridge with them that's a common language so they understand the value that you bring to the conversation. If you can't defend your value, you'll never be able to defend your salary. If you can't defend your salary, you won't be able to put your food on the table, period.

Speaker A: This is from Brando Vazquez. He says, if you could start your career all over again, which skill would you learn?

Speaker C: First, I would learn communication, like public speaking, rhetoric. The ability to use words to communicate, to influence, to persuade, uh, to elicit an emotional response. And it's strange because for a long time I ran away from that because I. I'm a visual person and I thought I could hide behind making images. And, um, there's probably a popular belief when I was going to school is if the work's good enough, you'll have to explain it. And I kind of lived with that for a while. And so I would make my presentations as short as possible. This is the work. Here's the problem. Here's how I solved it. And there was like a running joke because the Europeans were very well spoken, despite English not being their first language. And they would add so much context to it. But their work sucked. So we were like, you went Euro on us, didn't you? You know, that was the joke. But then now looking back on that deeper history with culture, with art, with architecture and photography, I think they grow up in it and they absorb it through their pores. They're able to speak about it if the Work ethic matched that. I think that would be a deadly combination. And so I think for me, if I had to go back, I would study communication.

Speaker B: Being able to articulate. To be a articulate advocate for your, uh, thinking is imperative because if you can't do it, no one's gonna sell your ideas. No one's gonna advance your career. It's up to you. The idea is like, step off the cliff and the universe will, you know, lift you up. No, it won't. You fall flat on the rocks. Yeah. It's absolutely up to you to learn how to be an advocate for your point of view. No one's gonna help you with that. We try to teach that here. Um, Collins is as much of a school as it is a, ah, graduate program, uh, in like, liberal arts and design, and also puts in a little bit of the Muppet steak Manhattan. Um, but I push people out to speak all the time. Chris met me in Egypt was the first place we met. And I brought a member of my team. A lot say, and he'll probably say later, um, who. I convinced him to come with me to Egypt. He was. He did not want to speak publicly. He hated it. He had anxiety about it. He felt uncomfortable, um, on the stage. I said to him a couple months before, hey, I've been invited to go to Egypt. I've, um, got enough of a budget. Do you want to come with me? And he goes, sure. So I said, great. He agreed for coming with me about a month before. I said, you have to talk on stage. What?

Speaker C: What?

Speaker B: What? You have to talk on stage. What do you want? I don't want to talk on stage. Do you want to come to Egypt? Do you want to go along the Nile? Do you want to go and visit the pyramids? Do you want to walk through at midnight through the Egypt Museum in Cairo? It was, yes. Then all you need to do is go on stage for 20 minutes. I can't do that. Then you're not going to go to Egypt. He goes, he went on stage and he was great. Now since that time, I haven't been able to get him off stage because he turned out Chernobyl turned out to be hyper eloquent. But that's my job as a leader, is to push, push, uh, people, you know, and, and so being able to speak publicly about your thinking is really important. Being able to write about it is, Is really, really important. I'd agree with Chris. If you can understand how to give verbal form to your, your ideas and your ambition, then what ends up Happening is other people will follow you. And Chris is example of that because he has like 6 million more followers than I do. He's really, really fucking good at it. There are very few artists who are particularly eloquent at articulating what it is that they do. If you can do something and explain how you do it and why you do it, uh, you can kind of carve your own path.

Speaker C: If I remember correctly, Brian H. And part of my ignorance, I didn't know that much about you before. I saw you in an electric blue suit and your designer glasses and your white quaff of hair. I'm like, who is this guy? I don't know what he said. I just need to find out about him. And we started talking and it wound up that we. Did we go to the airport the same time or something.

Speaker B: Egypt.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. In Cairo. Right?

Speaker B: Cairo. Yeah.

Speaker C: I just like. Brian was making a scene just by the suit he was wearing.

Speaker B: It was.

Speaker A: He's a fashionista.

Speaker C: He is.

Speaker B: You're a designer. If you're gonna show up, you show up.

Speaker C: He was the male version of the Devil Wears Prada.

Speaker B: I would. Oh, my God. Yeah. The question is, what do you want to learn first?

Speaker A: Right. You go back and do it again.

Speaker B: That. Yeah, that, uh, the second thing, which I learned later, um, put your money away and invest it. Learn how to invest your money. What I've done, it's irrelevant. But what you want to do is if you have much money, if you can live on half of what you make and put the rest of it away so you don't touch it for 10 years, you'll be amazed. You will be amazed by what you have in the bank. It'll blow you away. Don't buy toys. Don't buy silly things. Put it away.

Speaker C: So, uh, here's another way to understand what Brian just said, which is to live as modestly as possible, to not chase after the external trappings of fancy, uh, clothes, cars and things. You don't need to put your money into a smart place. For me, the number one highest return on investment of your money is into self development.

Speaker B: Yep. Couldn't agree more.

Speaker C: Because whatever you put into yourself, you're going to 10, 100x that. Probably the second best place to put money, in my own experience, is real estate. If you can save enough to buy some real estate, we've done really well. Um, so we were really thrifty and tight at the beginning, and we put money. We own two buildings, and those things are worth way more than what I paid for. Them now. And it's a good financial cushion. Why would you even want a financial cushion? Because that is what I guess some people would technically call F U money. So when a client you don't want to deal with and they're just holding you over the coals because you've got rent and everything to that's hovering over your head, you're going to say yes. You're going to make a lot of compromises yourself, uh, and things that you don't want to do. And one insurance against that is to have some financial cushion to fall back on. So you can say, I decline. I'll just tell you a little story here. We're invited to this agency to work on a really large car account. It was literally a million dollar project for a website. I was very excited about it. So we came in. We were one of several companies that we're talking to. And I got the funniest vibes from the people in the room. Some of them started to, uh, offhandedly make some racial jokes about Asian people. Their client was an Asian car company. And I was bothered by this. I was really bothered by it. And at first I thought maybe just one person, but the fact that they're all going along with the joke meant this is institutional racism. And me being, uh, an Asian American, I just could not work with them, despite how much money was there. I didn't say anything. My belief is you're a professional all the way. You decide that you don't want to work with them, they don't get to decide that. So get in the car. My executive producer and one of my producers, we're driving. He knew he's not Asian. He knew it was bad. We drive away and he's, uh, like, chris, so what do you think? I'm like, I can't believe you're even asking me that question. This is an absolute no. He goes, you do realize, and I agree with you, what we're walking away from. I'm like, that job was never meant to be ours. I don't want to work with people like that, period. Not in this day and age. Forget about it.

Speaker B: You don't need to.

Speaker C: So we said no. So sometimes your beliefs do have a price tag, but I can make that decision. And people are going to say, you're very privileged to make that decision, but that's by design. Because if you live modestly and you save more money than you spend, you're going to be all right. That's why you want to do that.

Speaker A: All right? So a Lot of these questions have been based on, you know, entry level applicants. And that's amazing. That's what I'm looking to do. I know that that's, ah, you know, in part what Chris is looking to do, among other things. But what about advice for people that are listening to this and they're, and they're on a different part of their career. They're looking to, you know, navigate difficult experiences with clients, changing expectations. Uh, Brian, I'll let you take the lead on this, but, uh, when things get difficult in working with clients or, you know, maybe just something got weird somewhere along the line, how do you go about handling that?

Speaker B: When you run into some troubles with clients, the best thing you can ever learn, if they come to you with a problem, do not defend your point of view. Ever. Make, um, that go away. Don't get angry. Certainly don't get defensive. What you want to do is listen to them actively. You want to repeat back to them what they told you. You do not want to say, well, this happened because of that and this and you didn't do. They don't give a shit. They literally don't care. Your job in that moment where they're telling you how disappointed they might be about an, um, outcome or something you were supposed to do, you didn't do, or you have a different expectation of what was supposed to happen. You have to listen to them and then you have to repeat back to them what they told you. Then you have to do this, which is really hard. You have to expand on what they've said. So if they said this problem was because of A, B and C, and you listen to them and you say this problem, you tell me, is because of A, B and C, and I bet it's also because of D, E and F. You have to expand their range of concern. If you don't do that, they will not think that you are listening to them. Your first job is to have great compassion. I hate the word empathy. Empathy means, you know, you walk around in another person's shoes. It doesn't mean you care. Empathy, uh, is too objective a word. You have to compassionate with what they're going through. If you can't have compassion for your clients, you, you do not deserve to have clients, period. You have to. Even when they're at their most difficult, they've hired you. Your obligation is to figure it out. Unless for some reason they've been abusive, they're mean, and by every definition they're horrible. You have to try to find a way to figure it out because they've hired you. And you have to expand on that, probably to repeat it back to them, then they will listen to you. And it requires you to be generous, requires you to be absolutely vulnerable. And you have to be willing to take all the blame when they raise that up or they bring something up. And only then will you be able to move the ball forward, take responsibility for it. Even take responsibility for things that, you know, you might not have done. And they're angry about it.

Speaker A: Right, that's my next question.

Speaker B: It will diffuse their anger almost consistently, and you'll be able to start a new conversation. And later you can come back around and say, you know, you were a little rough on me on this, but if you don't do it in that moment and really listen to them repeat back what they have said, 1, 2, 3, and then expand. 4, 5, 6. That's how you defuse a situation. Do not defend yourself. First. Listen to them.

Speaker A: Yeah, Chris.

Speaker C: I'm not Irish, so I don't have that hot blood. So I try to be as objective as possible, even when I know the clients are 1000% wrong.

Speaker B: You don't get a temper, Chris. No. Jesus Christ. Get your Irish shop door. Hang out with me for a couple days. We'll find.

Speaker C: Takes a lot for me to get that upset. And I've been upset before, but I've always thought about what is going to serve me, the company, the people who, who've taken, uh, some kind of risk to join our company, what's going to serve us best right now. And for me to flip out, it's really not going to serve anybody. And it's also just, I think, a sign of maturity and wisdom. And as you get older, you're not so gung ho about every little thing and every little offense, uh, whether real or perceived. And I think it's what served me well when I was running a company, working with clients. There's an obligation here to work with clients and solve the problem. Solve the problem. Clients don't speak your language. You speak theirs. Uh, it's one of those things where you as Moses, you go to the mountain and we work together. Now, I can harbor all kinds of horrible feelings and whatever, but I'm going to try to work through the problem. I think Brian said several things about taking responsibility. I mean, it takes a bigger person to take responsibility for things you know are not your fault. I mean, saying it's my fault, when you. It is your fault, it's just being honest. But to step in and say, look, I don't know where this went wrong. I'm going to take responsibility. What has happened here, what has transpired, uh, that is creating this place now where you're feeling this way. And what Brian also said was, is there an opportunity for us to get this back on track, or has that ship sailed? Mixed metaphors there. Realize that. And let's get, let's get it back on. And usually that is all people want. They just want to be seen, heard, recognized. So. Okay, all right. Okay, we can do this. And I think the problem here is that a lot of creative people are afraid of any kind of friction at all.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And so rather than bring this thing up, which they know the vibe is funky because we're really good about feeling the room, but they don't say anything. The clients are thinking, are we on the same page? Are we on the same plane? Can we see eye to eye on this moving forward? And they're probably writing you off right now. So it's better for you to speak about these things, to surface them, because once you do, the toxic energy in the room will start dissipate. I find that whenever you speak to a problem, whether it's with your team, whether it's with a potential client or an existing client, that starts to bring everybody from a, uh, from an eight or nine on the, on the crazy scale back down to a three or four, and we can rebuild from there. And I've used this many times when projects have gone sideways to bring it back on track. And I find that young people, when they know they screwed up or they know the clients are misbehaving, they just don't say anything. And the problem doesn't get smaller, it gets bigger.

Speaker A: Why do you think that that is? Why is that fear there that stops people from being able to advocate for themselves before, uh, it's too late. And did you guys ever have a time where you felt like that was something that you struggled with?

Speaker C: Well, I think many creatives, especially early on their career, are still looking for their footing, their inner confidence. And we tend to look at the world so much like the clients have all the power and we have zero power. And so we readily just give it away. And so if the client's upset, we just pretend like, okay, whatever, or there's an issue, there are too many rounds of changes, or they're not looking at our presentation and paying attention because something else is more interesting to them and we don't say anything. So we cede power. And if you just think about it as a Relationship goes on. It only gets worse. It never improves. The best it's ever going to be is the beginning when you're in your honeymoon stage and everybody's on their best behavior. So it's important, I think, when establishing dynamic between yourself and the client, that you. You have a good accounting of yourself by, by being confident, having some self respect, and being able to raise these things. We also think some. We have magical thinking that if we don't bring up the problem, it will just go away. We just ignore it. It tends to lead into passive aggressive behavior. Right. We know that in any kind of relationship, for example, if you have a friend who's like, hey, yeah, uh, Rob, um, I'm gonna hang out at your house. You're like, well, I didn't really invite you. I'll just spend the night here, just one night. You're like, oh, all right. But my wife might not like that. Uh, and you don't bring it up. And he just keeps eating at you and eating at you. A week into this relationship, you're like, dude, we can't even be friends anymore because you're just taking advantage of me right now. And I'm hearing it from my wife every single night. So if we had just said, look, I'm uncomfortable with you spending the night here. I got to check in with my wife. Uh, not because I'm not a man of the house, but we're a partnership, and you can't just drop in and say that at random. I love you like a brother, but I need to run it by my wife because I want there to be harmony here. So just chill for one second. We'll. Let me find out. And also, if you're gonna stay here, it's gotta be just for one night. Are we cool? And then all of a sudden, it's not so bad anymore. We have to learn to speak to our fears and speak to our concerns. And you had asked this question before about if we could all go back in time and do one thing over again. What was that one thing? Communication. That's kind of where I'm leading with this.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've got one more question, and I promised my friend Alex that I would go back to him. So I thought this was a great question. And I would love to get this in here. Hi, Alex, by the way. Uh, Chris, we need to give a proper shout out. Uh, we're sharing. By the way, Alex, we're sharing a microphone, but Chris, give a proper shout out, uh, to Alex, who is one of your big fans.

Speaker C: Hey, Alex, what's up? Thanks for asking super smart questions. You're so smart.

Speaker A: You carry this episode.

Speaker C: You carry the entire episode with your. Not one, two, but your three questions. Yes.

Speaker A: I think there's like six in there. But he's a go getter. That's why I love. That's why I gravitated towards him. He's got the desire that Brian talks about. All right, last question. You guys have been amazing. What's the most effective and polite way to follow up with companies that you've applied for if you get no response? I get this all the time from YouTube creatives. I've sent out a million things. No one's getting back. I'm not even asking for a job. I'm just asking for them to look at my work or something. Dealing with no's. You know what I mean, Brian? Go ahead and take it.

Speaker B: We said no to someone about eight months ago for an important business role at this company. It was a strategy. And there was another candidate who we thought had a much more expansive view of the opportunity. And he had a lot more, um, experience. We hired that person, and we heard from the person that we turned down, and he wrote us a letter. It explained why he wanted to work with us and why he was so disappointed and how he saw our company because he'd interviewed with a number of people, he did research, and he built a metaphor for us, a business metaphor that was connected to a story. It was a two page letter, maybe two and a half pages. It blew us away. We all read it and we said, I think we missed something here. Not only did this guy understand a metaphor, not only did he give it an understandable metaphor. Look how brilliantly he writes, we missed something. We went back to him and they said, would you be interested in. In opening up this conversation again? He said, yes, and we hired him. Had he not taken the time, clearly that that letter was a few days of work. You don't write like that. But he believed in. He really wanted to work here. And we got this letter. Uh, he sent it to Lee and I sent it to me. I'm like, holy cow. Uh, and, uh, we got back on the phone with him, and he's been delivering like gangbusters. So the power of a letter, in that case, it was a strategy role. So the power of language rather than the power of communication. Again.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Made us re evaluate him. Uh, I said, I kept on saying no to Diego Segura, like, I'll call you. He sent me the video. I want to do an internship. I want to do that. And he kept on. He was persistent. He found out from Kachit I was going to be in New York on a Friday. He showed up, showed up at my door, and I could not, not, um, pay attention to him.

Speaker A: Um, I sent you like seven, seven things and then you randomly text me.

Speaker B: You've got to be very careful because at some point you just go, okay, this person's lost their mind right now. In your case, um, I like you. And you're charming and you're eager and you're up good looking and you're kind, um, and you're enthusiastic. And so all of those things in my mind, when were, were great you. There is no rule. I'm not. I can't give you a rule about what you should do if you don't hear from back. If you've written somebody three times and they haven't gotten back to you, they will never get back to you. That's it. Uh, then you just have to, then you have to move on to the next thing. Yeah, but, uh, I would do it once. Once. Like they might have missed it. Second. They might have missed it the third time. If they don't get back to you, it means that they don't want to get back to you. So move on to people. How do I say this? Don't chase, be chaste. Don't try to twist the arms of someone who doesn't want you. It's silly. It's a waste of energy.

Speaker A: Chris, I'd love to hear you on this, man.

Speaker C: There's a lot of different ways to answer this question, and it depends on the nature of the relationship. If you're talking about wanting to interview someone for a podcast, there's an approach. And if you think you want a job with Brian Collins, because this is going to change your life, there's a different approach. And we don't want to say there's one answer to all of these things. And I love watching cinema. And there's a line here. I hope I don't screw this up from desperate measures with Andy Garcia and Michael Keaton. Michael, uh, Keaton's a psychopath. And, you know, uh, Andy Garcia's character is trying to save his boy by getting a kidney or something donated by Michael Keaton. And there's a scene and they're looking at each other and goes, do you want to know where you end and where I begin? He's talking about his determination to see something through. If this is the love of your life and he or she says no a couple times. You don't just walk away and say, well, I gave it my best shot. And that was that you take a different approach. And the best approach is to really look at the eyes, look at the world through the eyes of the person that you want to catch their attention. Like what matters them and what versus what matters to you. Personal story here. Uh, I bought my mom, uh, like a Mother's Day gift, and I bought her a pan. And she looked at me, she's like, what are you trying to tell me? You need to cook more for the whole family? And I was like, I don't know, Mom. Because I never really spent time to think about what my mom wants. And it's a whole different thing. Like, most people give gifts to themselves and not for the other person. And so if we look at that, what Brian Collins wanted to see with that example was show me how strategic of a thinker you are. And I think the door to Brian's heart from a strategic point of view, it's a well thought out story with a metaphor that taps into maybe mythology or something like that. And that's how you win his heart. And it's going to be a different thing if you're applying for the design role. You got to show Brian really great typography, you see. So there are different things and we have to be very nuanced. The problem that most people take is they take a very broad approach, like a shotgun approach. Yeah, I tried this with this company. I'm going to try the same thing. And basically you're signaling to the other person, I don't really matter. You don't really want this gig, whether it's a podcast or it's a job. So for you, if you're going to send a message to someone and you want them to be a guest, sit down and think about this. I have a friend, very successful man, lives in Taiwan. He makes a lot of money convincing very notable celebrities, uh, designers, top level, 1% of the creative people in the world to agree to a deal. And he, he sits there and he works on this thing for three to six months. He creates a custom book, he prints five of them, and he has to figure out, how do I get this in the hands of the decision maker. And he's figured out you go through the system, and when they open that book, he has 10 seconds for them to say yes or no. So that's a lot of thinking, a lot of design, a lot of research into getting them to say yes. And that's how much it matters to them. Of course, the deals are worth millions of dollars and. But those are the stakes. Somewhere between doing the very minimum. And that is your answer.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: It's a better answer than mine.

Speaker A: They're both good.

Speaker B: No, that's a better answer. Because if you're crazy about something, you're really. And you believe you deserve to be there, and they're just not seeing it, then you keep on doing it. You just keep on doing it like you don't know how good I am. I need to be there. That's what Diego did. Like, you don't know. He kept on showing up and showing up and that. Now that kind of. If that's what you believe, if your heart is set on that, then you just keep on doing it until late. Until you have a conversation.

Speaker C: Jim Carrey said something that I just love. He says, I'm insane. I have this insane belief that I can manifest anything into reality. And Diego won you over at some point, right, Brian?

Speaker B: He won over me and he won over my staff.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because I have to. Because what happens is I get really excited about people who, um, are self. Are sort of self propelled.

Speaker C: We admire people like that.

Speaker B: Love it. And I have to make sure I'm. Because I find it absolutely intoxicating.

Speaker A: Same.

Speaker B: This person's like, oh, my God, so do me a favor. And I went to Nick on my team, and I went to Tom, uh, and I went to Yokosta. I met. I had to meet other designers. Please tell me what you think. And I said, we. We have to hire this person. I said, okay. Do you all agree? Yes. Then you're going to hire him because you have to make him succeed. If he becomes. I think if I push him and I go, I think we should hire this guy. You'll feel obligated. Do you want to hire him? I need to hear from all of you. And they were. It was absolutely unanimous. And he was. He was extraordinary.

Speaker C: I had this young man who really wanted to work for us, and he got the chair of design, the department chair of design over at Cal State Northridge to personally vouch for him. I'm still thinking, I don't know about this guy. I think it was coincidental, but I'm, um, at the 3rd Street Promenade shopping at Adidas. And he says, are you Chris? Oh, I. I'm that person who the chair recommended. I'm like, oh, my God. I think the kid is stalking me. But he was so persistent. I did the same thing, Brian. I went back to the Team. I said, I think this could be the worst decision or the best decision we've ever made. Uh, because we're going to invite a stalker into our home. And let's see what happens. Like, okay guys, let's see what happens. He turned out to be a dynamite kind of superstar in his inevitability because he's so freaking determined. He didn't have that talent on paper or on the screen at that moment in time. But I think both of us are really hard working, self determined people that when we see it in another person, it just makes our heart a little happy. And we gotta just double check to make sure it's not some internal bias, that we are just looking too much at one factor and saying like, this person's gonna work out. I think that's why we need to check with the team. Sometimes, like everybody, we gotta get on board because I have a blind spot for this.

Speaker B: Here's the flip side. If you want to work at a company, there are many different doors. My staff was very excited about a, uh, designer, um, who they met, who's Russian. And she's amazing. She's a painter, she's an artist. She self propelled. She's amazing. You've seen her work. We saw her work. It's absolutely incredible. And I said, you have to meet Angela. I'm like, okay, I'd love to meet her. What have you decided? We love her, we all want to hire her. She's amazing and she's funny and she's ambitious. Um, and we're have to move her from, you know, uh, from eastern Europe. And does she want to move here? Yeah, she wants to move here with her child and her and her son. And she's ready to go. I'm like this, um, we moved here right before, like shortly before COVID And we're like, oh, okay. I'm like, great. And so I said I'd love to meet her. Just because I meet everybody, you know, before it all sound. And she meets me. She said, brian, it's nice to see you. I'm like, you've no, you've no idea how happy I am. I'm like, why? I saw you speak in Moscow 10 years ago and ever since I saw you speak, I wanted to work here.

Speaker C: What?

Speaker A: That's so crazy.

Speaker B: Do you remember the speech you gave? Yeah, I know. I was, I. The US Embassy invited me to. It was this. At the time, there's an exchange program between American commerce, uh, and Russian commerce. They wanted to really build those bridges. And so I spent A, uh, week and a half there. And she said, I saw that speech. And it was. And you threw things at the audience. And I've watched the. Ever since. And now I would very much like to work here. And no one knew this. She told me. I'm like. And she'd. She'd already. She knew she'd passed there. I'm like, done. And so she had gone through the side doors and the back door and the attic and up to the basement and through a window. She didn't come knocking on the front door. She found a way into the conversation and her strength of her talent. And now she's, uh. She lives here in Brooklyn. She does amazing work, and she's here with her son and, uh, and her husband. And she's an incredible member of the team. But she found a way that was not pummeling me with emails.

Speaker A: I think that's something that people don't think about, too, is every person that you meet, especially the first person that you meet when entering an office, you need to treat them like the person you're going to talk to. Because I remember that the reason why you and I have a relationship to this day was you were in meetings, and I met Antonia. I was nervous, and she saw that I was nervous. And then she kind of just like.

Speaker B: She probably got you something to eat.

Speaker A: Yeah, she got me something to eat. We walked around and she got me a cold towel. No, I'm just kidding. No. But she showed me around the studio and we bonded, and it was from a very genuine place. And then later, uh, Katya and Tom Wilder and Lee and all these different people. And the reason why you called me back the first time I met you, and I had literally nothing to show for it. My portfolio was dog shit. But the reason why you called me back and you told me this, the first thing you said was everyone in the office said about how nice you were to them. And you cannot go into these things going, I'm here for Brian. When's he gonna be done? I waited all day, and by the time that you and I talked, we were like. I was friends with everyone. Yeah, it was good.

Speaker B: Um, Think big. Yeah, don't act big. Right? Don't act big. Yeah, don't. Don't act big. It's the worst. I've seen designers.

Speaker A: I acted very small.

Speaker B: You're a graphic designer. We make colors. We. We get to work with other interesting people, and we get to make form, and we. We have interesting clients and like, uh, like, get over yourself.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Just like you know, don't act big.

Speaker C: Yeah, speak for yourself. I'm just kidding.

Speaker B: Speak for yourself.

Speaker A: Chris is a nice guy, by the way. Everyone thinks Chris is intimidating. Everyone says that.

Speaker C: Do they? He's a nice guy most of the time, Brian. Just so we don't leave the audience hanging on an open thread or loop.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Um, you had said you hired a strategist, and then you hired another strategist. What happened to the first strategist?

Speaker B: He's done really, really, really, really well.

Speaker C: So you had. You kept both.

Speaker B: We got both.

Speaker C: Oh, wonderful. Okay. Because I was thinking, somewhere in a ditch, somebody's crying. Like, I was the first strategist.

Speaker B: We don't hire positions. We hired people. And they're like, they were good. I'm like, can we afford them now? No, but we can't afford not to. We can't. Um, they'll make their own opportunity. So. So I hired both of them. Paid off big time. They're. They're amazing. But we hired both. We went back, we saw something that we. We missed, and we're like. We didn't have him write anything, and he took all his time and this thing. Shut up. And he's been great. So we hired both of them.

Speaker C: I have to say, it must be good to be Brian Collins, because you can hire one strategist and see a letter and hire a second strategist. It's good to be Collins.

Speaker B: Just saying. We hired that strategist ahead of revenue, but we knew that they were so rare that someone else who would grab them and we would have missed out on what I think is someone who's extraordinary.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. I love it.

Speaker A: You guys have been super gracious with your time. I just want to say that, uh, you know, I know that we're on whenever there. Whenever there's mics around, things just don't seem as genuine. But genuinely speaking, you know, during COVID I've really gotten a chance to grow closer with you. Brian in Massachusetts, my grandparents house and Chris, you know, during we did those live Q and A things, the world was literally melting. We weren't sure that the world was not going to just completely fall apart. And it's really, I just want to say, rewarding and fulfilling, and it's an honor. And I know there's a lot of people who watched your last thing together, but, um, to get to grow closer with you guys during this time period has been really, really rewarding for me. And, uh, it's not lost on me. I've been doing this long Enough that you realize that everyone's just normal and puts their pants on one leg at a time. But it's really an honor and a privilege. Uh, and it's cool to, um, you know, you guys are still heroes to me, but we can sit around and giggle and be stupid. And that's a. And that's a beautiful thing. And this has been amazing. Thank you. Uh, it's cool seeing Chris do in real life. It's sort of trippy. It's. It's weird. I almost want to, like, touch his face, but I'm not gonna do it. All right. Where can people find you online? Brian, I know it's. We are Collins anything. We'll let you go with the plugs first. Where can people get in touch? The whole nine yards. Anything. Shameless. Self promotion time.

Speaker B: Everything you need is colins.com.

Speaker A: good answer. Solid answer.

Speaker C: All right, Chris, you can find me everywhere on social media. I try to be a prolific content creator. So I'm Hechris Doe. Last name is Doe D O. And you can find out more about the company. The future dot com. The future is spelt without an e, so it's F u T U R.

Speaker A: Quick bonus question for the road. If someone was to go to the future, which I think is a great. By the way, it sounds so cool when you say that brilliant name. Uh, I just realized it now. Uh, if someone was to go to the future and they were to go look for a class to start out with, what, what class would you recommend for the first one?

Speaker C: If you're a designer, probably our typography course. And if you're looking to grow your design practice, I would recommend you look into our nine week program. It's called the Business Bootcamp.

Speaker A: All right, beautiful. We're out of here.

Speaker B: Take Chris's classes.

Speaker A: Yes, it's simple. Sign up. All right, that's it. And, uh, rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and, uh, the Future. If you guys could really share this, I really need. Um, my engagement's terrible, so just, you know, the future nation. Join me on this journey. There's two other episodes, uh, with, with Christo, and you'll only find them if you go to meetthecreatives.org and subscribe. Okay, goodbye.