Technology Attorney George Brunt on AI IP Ownership, Embedded Legal Counsel, and the Legal Mistakes MarTech Founders Keep Making

1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,599 SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Mar Talks, the number one podcast 2 00:00:07,599 --> 00:00:10,160 for e-commerce and marketing applications. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,599 Mar Talks is devoted to covering the latest technology 4 00:00:13,599 --> 00:00:17,199 developments that drive the global commerce ecosystem from 5 00:00:17,199 --> 00:00:19,359 advertising to last mile. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,239 Enjoy all of our content at Rosenstein Group.com slash Mar 7 00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:26,480 Talks dash podcast. 8 00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:32,479 SPEAKER_02: And today I want to introduce you to a gentleman who 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,399 is a man, and I really want you to hear this, studied zoology at 10 00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:40,000 BYU and then became one of America's top technology 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,479 attorneys, wrote the first shrimp wrap software licenses in 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,399 history shortly after he wrote the first patent in history for 13 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:50,240 the light bulb for Thomas Edison. 14 00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:54,560 But then before most people knew what software was, he argued a 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,399 landmark federal case that every founder today is living inside, 16 00:00:58,479 --> 00:01:01,280 whether you know it or not, served as the general counsel 17 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,280 for City Corps, ITT, and Alcatel, where he personally 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,239 managed over 23,000 patents, raised 83 million in capital 19 00:01:10,239 --> 00:01:13,680 documentation, then decided that wasn't enough, and went out and 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,359 co-founded an oil company, my favorite, then bought a chain of 21 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:20,560 Paul Mitchell beauty schools across six states, wrote two 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,159 books on integrity, which for a lawyer is honestly the ballsiest 23 00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:27,519 marketing move I've ever seen, and currently is building what I 24 00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:30,879 genuinely believe is one of the most underrated companies in the 25 00:01:30,879 --> 00:01:31,920 legal space today. 26 00:01:32,159 --> 00:01:35,439 He thinks like a CEO, he speaks like a professor. 27 00:01:35,599 --> 00:01:38,480 And according to his own LinkedIn bio, which I am not 28 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,680 making up, he acts like a disciple. 29 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,280 Everybody meet the man who has made has been in more 30 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,480 billion-dollar rooms than most people have had hot meals. 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,159 From Island Park, Idaho, the middle of absolutely nowhere, 32 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:53,040 George Brunt. 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:53,840 Welcome to Mark. 34 00:01:54,079 --> 00:01:55,200 SPEAKER_01: Daryl, thank you very much. 35 00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,959 It's a pleasure to be here and to speak with you and your 36 00:01:58,959 --> 00:01:59,359 audience. 37 00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:01,280 Hope uh something good will come out of it. 38 00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:04,079 SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, uh, there's no guarantees there, and 39 00:02:04,079 --> 00:02:05,280 in fact, uh probably not. 40 00:02:05,359 --> 00:02:07,439 But you know, I appreciate the uh happy thought. 41 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,400 Well, uh, you know, I have to start here since you went to BYU 42 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:11,439 and then Pepperdine. 43 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,840 And somewhere on that journey, yeah, you ended up writing the 44 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,120 first shrink wrap software license for the Practical Law 45 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:20,080 Institute at the time. 46 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:21,439 And that was in the 70s. 47 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:23,759 Now, can you just walk me back to that moment? 48 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,080 How does a young attorney end up at the frontier of an industry 49 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,840 at that point that didn't even exist? 50 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,159 SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, well, it was quite a journey. 51 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,919 In my undergraduate, I really wanted to go into organizational 52 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:36,319 behavior. 53 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:41,280 Stephen Covey was one of my professors at BYU, and I really 54 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,319 liked what he did, how he looked at organizations and how 55 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:47,360 organizations work and leadership, and I thought that's 56 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:48,400 what I wanted to do. 57 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,439 My wife and I counseled about it a lot, prayed a lot about it, 58 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:52,960 and decided to go to law school. 59 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:55,759 So I graduated, went to law school at Pepperdine. 60 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:01,039 I actually started in pepperdine before the graduation ceremonies 61 00:03:01,039 --> 00:03:05,199 because of timing, and went through pepperdine and um became 62 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:05,759 a lawyer. 63 00:03:06,159 --> 00:03:09,680 I clerked for lawyers along the way, but it was really at the 64 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,039 very beginning. 65 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,560 I entered law school in um 74 and graduated in 77. 66 00:03:16,719 --> 00:03:20,719 And that was about the time Steven Jobs and Wozniak were 67 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:23,280 working in their garage and developing their Apple 68 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,080 computers, and they came out with the Apple IIe. 69 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:31,039 Right after I graduated, I I worked, first of all, there's a 70 00:03:31,039 --> 00:03:33,759 gap between when you graduate and when you get the bar 71 00:03:33,759 --> 00:03:34,240 results. 72 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,159 So there's about a year there. 73 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:38,800 So I graduated, took the bar, and then I went to work for 74 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:39,680 McDonnell Douglas. 75 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,280 And that was another interesting thing on my career because I 76 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,840 was, I found myself in charge of the American Airlines, the 77 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,280 United Airlines, and the Texas International accounts. 78 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:55,120 I did all their contracting, I made sure the planes were built 79 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:57,599 that did the deliveries of the planes and all that kind of 80 00:03:57,599 --> 00:03:57,759 thing. 81 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,000 And each plane was, you know, at that time 40 or 50 million 82 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:02,319 dollars. 83 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:05,680 And so they they were billion-dollar contracts, and I 84 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,280 was just barely out of school. 85 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,520 So then after I got my bar results and passed bar, I 86 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:12,960 started my own little law office. 87 00:04:13,039 --> 00:04:15,520 And it just seems that the people who were walking in the 88 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,000 door were people who were developing software for Apple or 89 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,240 they were developing hardware like Winchester disk drives, 90 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,040 which at the time were about as big as my desk and were 10 91 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,360 megabytes in size. 92 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,199 We had we had lots of companies that would come to us, and I 93 00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:38,399 ended up going in-house with one of them, MAI Basic 4. 94 00:04:38,639 --> 00:04:42,720 But the way I got into that is there was a company that was 95 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,560 knocking off some of their software. 96 00:04:44,639 --> 00:04:47,839 And at the time, we didn't know whether software was going to be 97 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,240 protected by patent law, by trademark law, by copyright law, 98 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:53,839 by trade secret law. 99 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,120 We really didn't know, but we had people ripping off our 100 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:57,839 software. 101 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,240 And so we sued them, went to court, it was in Boise, Idaho. 102 00:05:02,319 --> 00:05:06,319 Um, I was living and working in Southern California, but the the 103 00:05:06,319 --> 00:05:09,360 infringer happened to be up in the Boise area, so we sued them 104 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,720 in the federal court in Boise. 105 00:05:11,199 --> 00:05:14,319 And they they didn't know either. 106 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,040 They didn't know how the law was going to protect them. 107 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,720 And so we arrived in that, and you said I argued the case. 108 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:21,839 I really didn't argue the case. 109 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,199 I was a pretty junior attorney, but I was involved in managing 110 00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:29,680 the litigation and um overseeing it and coming up with the 111 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,839 strategies that that we implemented. 112 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,480 And we implemented a strategy of saying it's protected by 113 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,480 copyright law, that any expression that's written or put 114 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,879 into a tangible medium is a copyright. 115 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,120 And there it is, registered the very foundation of intellectual 116 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:46,000 property protection. 117 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:46,480 Yep. 118 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,079 You were in the right foundation. 119 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:50,720 So it was it was a very interesting case. 120 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,480 And uh really one of my first well, I'd I had done family law 121 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,800 trial experiences and um a couple of uh white collar fraud 122 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,120 cases and that type of thing, but that was really my first 123 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,600 foray into the technology field. 124 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,399 SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I find it very interesting that 125 00:06:06,399 --> 00:06:10,000 you got all this responsibility after essentially being a 126 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,680 student hanging out in Malibu. 127 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,639 I mean, they just didn't have judgment back then, apparently. 128 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:19,839 You know, the yeah, you know, and apparently Citicor didn't 129 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,879 learn from their lesson because you went and became the GC of 130 00:06:22,879 --> 00:06:25,759 Citicor, ITT, and Alcatel after that. 131 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:26,720 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. 132 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,639 I I had a good career there. 133 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,800 I was with MEI Basic 4, which was a hardware company. 134 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:36,639 And what they made is they made very low-power computers with 135 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:40,079 Winchester disk drives that attached to them, and they would 136 00:06:40,079 --> 00:06:43,439 go to dentists and people like that and sell the system for the 137 00:06:43,439 --> 00:06:46,480 dental office to run its management system, or the 138 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,639 Corrugated Box manufacturer to manufacture and keep track of 139 00:06:50,639 --> 00:06:51,439 its products. 140 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,120 So it was really all these business systems that MEI Basic 141 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,959 4 was doing, but then they split off and they had a software 142 00:06:58,959 --> 00:06:59,360 company. 143 00:06:59,519 --> 00:07:04,079 And so that this is the Hubco Data Products case in Boise was 144 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:05,839 was while I was working for them. 145 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,759 And it was it was very, very interesting to be in those first 146 00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:13,680 parts of the computer, using computers to solve business 147 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:14,079 problems. 148 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:15,519 And we're still doing it today. 149 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,519 It's accelerated tremendously. 150 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,519 And now everybody's asking the question how is AI going to be 151 00:07:21,519 --> 00:07:22,000 protected? 152 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,319 If you develop something with AI, who owns it? 153 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:25,199 Do you own it? 154 00:07:25,279 --> 00:07:27,519 You know, so it's is it protected by copyright? 155 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,120 Is it protected by trade secret? 156 00:07:29,199 --> 00:07:30,319 What's it protected by? 157 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,360 So we're we're kind of in the same field now, just in an 158 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:34,480 accelerated pace. 159 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:41,040 But then, so after I did that, ITT was developing a uh computer 160 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,240 program, and they were developing a platform based on 161 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,839 the PC, not on Apple. 162 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:50,160 And it was interesting when I first got in there, I said I 163 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:51,279 want to talk to the engineers. 164 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,079 And the CEO said, Why do you want to talk to the engineers? 165 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,639 I said, Because I want to know what they're doing, how they're 166 00:07:56,639 --> 00:08:00,480 developing their software for their computer, the code. 167 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:00,879 Yeah. 168 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:01,920 Do you code? 169 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,199 No, I don't code. 170 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,000 In fact, if you look at my transcripts, the only class I 171 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,319 filled in college was uh computer science. 172 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:09,279 Good for you. 173 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:10,639 You're in good company. 174 00:08:10,879 --> 00:08:11,759 You're in good company. 175 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,480 It was an interesting class because you just had to you had 176 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,160 to develop a program that ran on an IBM, you know, card reader. 177 00:08:18,319 --> 00:08:21,199 And for some reason my software program wouldn't run. 178 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,639 And and my professor got on he couldn't make it run. 179 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:25,759 Nobody could make it run. 180 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:26,480 SPEAKER_02: It never ran. 181 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,759 It's really hard to make those cards out of parchment paper 182 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:30,160 back then. 183 00:08:30,319 --> 00:08:32,879 I mean, it was that was a that was a could have been that 184 00:08:32,879 --> 00:08:33,519 simple of a thing. 185 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,519 SPEAKER_01: It could have been a defective card or something. 186 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,200 But anyway, bad sheet. 187 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,399 So I knew a little bit about computers, but I was certainly 188 00:08:40,399 --> 00:08:42,960 no computer genius or programmer, but I knew a lot 189 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,879 about the law and how they protect it. 190 00:08:45,039 --> 00:08:50,080 So finally I got down to the development um division at uh 191 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,559 ITT after they'd hired me to come on. 192 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:55,279 And I I had come on as the associate general counsel, and 193 00:08:55,279 --> 00:08:58,240 shortly thereafter, the general counsel left and went into 194 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,799 venture capital in Silicon Valley. 195 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:04,000 It was in Silicon Valley where it was headquartered at the 196 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:04,159 time. 197 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,320 And it was ITT information systems. 198 00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:08,240 It was the computer part of ITT. 199 00:09:08,399 --> 00:09:12,960 And so I went down, I talked to the software engineers, and I 200 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,440 said, How are you developing the ROM-based import output system, 201 00:09:17,519 --> 00:09:19,519 the ROM bias for the computer? 202 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:20,799 I said, It's really easy. 203 00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:22,720 He said, Microsoft publishes it. 204 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:25,440 So we're just following the book. 205 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:28,320 And I said, Whoa, what? 206 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:29,759 Microsoft publishes it. 207 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,039 You you can't copy that. 208 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,159 That's copyrighted. 209 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,000 And uh so I delayed the development program by a good 210 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,519 six months, had to develop a clean room with programmers who 211 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:43,120 had never heard of Microsoft, and redevelop the whole 212 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,519 development of the ITT extra personal computer because they 213 00:09:47,519 --> 00:09:48,080 didn't know. 214 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,879 The CEO didn't know, the engineers didn't know. 215 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,759 SPEAKER_02: They thought it was open software before there was 216 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:54,159 such a thing. 217 00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:55,440 It's published in a book. 218 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:56,559 Well, well, let's talk. 219 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:01,200 I I'm I'm gonna take a uh wild guess here and assume that we've 220 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,639 established rebona fides to talk about software for our audience 221 00:10:04,639 --> 00:10:05,120 out there. 222 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:06,159 You know, I don't know. 223 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,960 Maybe we're gonna take we're gonna go with it for now. 224 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:09,519 For now. 225 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:09,919 Okay. 226 00:10:10,159 --> 00:10:12,320 Let's talk a little bit about what you're actually building 227 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,279 there at business legal management, because I think it's 228 00:10:15,279 --> 00:10:16,159 genuinely different. 229 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,480 And I want our audience to understand it correctly. 230 00:10:18,639 --> 00:10:21,919 You described it to me as an embedded legal department, which 231 00:10:21,919 --> 00:10:25,120 is a great term, by the way, for technologists and software, an 232 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,080 embedded legal department, not a fractional, not an outside 233 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:28,559 counsel. 234 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,759 Why move through what that actually looks like inside of a 235 00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:34,240 company on day one, on week one, on month one? 236 00:10:34,399 --> 00:10:35,919 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that's a great question. 237 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,679 Uh yeah, we realized that what we were offering was really 238 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,879 something unique and it was hard to figure out a way to describe 239 00:10:42,879 --> 00:10:43,039 it. 240 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,720 And uh finally we we came upon embedded legal counsel because 241 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,480 what we do is we take someone with my kind of experience who's 242 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,279 been a general counsel in a major multi-billion dollar 243 00:10:53,279 --> 00:10:58,480 company, who's now retired or you know, gone beyond that and 244 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,759 but still working, a team of transactional attorneys. 245 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:05,519 And so we to we take this general counsel and this team of 246 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:07,200 attorneys on day one. 247 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,200 We go into the client and we sit down with the management team, 248 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:14,399 we attend their staff meetings, we spend two or three days at 249 00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:16,879 the company, we get to know them, get to know their 250 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:21,440 business, we meet their team, and then we just become their 251 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,879 go-to legal department. 252 00:11:23,039 --> 00:11:26,559 And there's there's more than one of us, there's like 10 of us 253 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,919 or 20 of us, depending on the company and how much their needs 254 00:11:29,919 --> 00:11:30,080 are. 255 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,679 And so you you always get the help you need when you need it. 256 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,559 The CEO can call me anytime, and we can put someone on the case. 257 00:11:38,639 --> 00:11:41,679 And so it's really quite a good opportunity. 258 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:43,440 It's a whole embedded legal team. 259 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,600 So so uh a come and and there's some big advantages to it for 260 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:48,080 the company. 261 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,320 One, it's way cheaper than even hiring a single general counsel. 262 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,240 It's way cheaper than relying on your outside counsel and paying 263 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,480 them for the types of fees they charge. 264 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,480 And they, general counsels are, I mean, outside councils are 265 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:03,679 really law firms. 266 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,000 They're set up to manage problems. 267 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,440 They're not set up to be part of the strategic team. 268 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,559 And so if you wait until there's a problem, you're gonna pay a 269 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,120 lot more than if you've got a member of the strategic team 270 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:16,720 who's thinking those problems through. 271 00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:18,960 I mean, take Uber when it was little. 272 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,840 They they didn't know how to hire people, and so they hired 273 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,600 them as independent contractors. 274 00:12:25,759 --> 00:12:29,759 And that ended up after they grew and got bigger, coming back 275 00:12:29,759 --> 00:12:32,559 and biting them because some jurisdictions said no, they're 276 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,799 employees, some jurisdictions said no, they're independent 277 00:12:34,799 --> 00:12:35,440 contractors. 278 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,519 Someone on a strategic team in-house would have stress test 279 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:42,799 those things and made sure it was right as it was going out 280 00:12:42,799 --> 00:12:43,360 the door. 281 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,559 Now, outside counsel, they can help you solve the problem once 282 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,360 somebody sues you for a misclassification of employees, 283 00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:53,279 but it's gonna cost a lot more. 284 00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:57,519 SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it it's essentially it's it's prepared, 285 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,000 preparing you for products before they go out the door. 286 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,440 It's pre-launch versus post-launch, which I'm sure 287 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,200 everybody QAs their software, but do they QA their contracts? 288 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:08,399 Maybe, maybe not. 289 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,960 Now, you you did share some numbers with me, and I I just 290 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,519 wanted to put those on the table here for our founders that are 291 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:13,759 out there. 292 00:13:13,919 --> 00:13:18,000 You said a company that tries to build in-house with a general 293 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,679 counsel and a paralegal and the technology and the benefits, 294 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,240 they're looking at roughly a half a million dollars a year 295 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,440 from the from the get-go. 296 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,440 And you're coming in at about $17,000 a month for a$50 million 297 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,679 company, which is about a $330,000 delta. 298 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:34,000 Right. 299 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,159 How is that possible without cutting corners? 300 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,639 SPEAKER_01: Well, we've we've got our team put together. 301 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,960 Um, we've hand selected our team. 302 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,639 Many of our attorneys are women and men who have graduated near 303 00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:50,080 the top of their class who want to have a family. 304 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,360 The Jessica Cahun, who runs the law firm, the law firm part of 305 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,919 it, she is such a great attorney, brilliant in every 306 00:13:59,919 --> 00:14:00,159 way. 307 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,039 But she has four kids and she wants to go to a soccer game. 308 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,879 She wants to raise a family. 309 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,240 So she's doing both. 310 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,639 And she has the flexibility with us to do it. 311 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,600 You know, we can send her a client thing, she can handle 312 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:11,840 that. 313 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,200 She handles some pretty big clients for us, uh, clients that 314 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:16,720 are in the billions of dollars. 315 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:20,159 And uh then, you know, she has the time to do that. 316 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,840 And so we've duplicated that. 317 00:14:21,919 --> 00:14:26,720 We've duplicated her many times over and uh found people who are 318 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,279 at the top of their class, but don't they don't want to go to a 319 00:14:29,279 --> 00:14:31,360 law firm and we're at 2,000 hours a year. 320 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,519 SPEAKER_02: I'm guessing she's one of those parents that 321 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:37,200 doesn't rush on the court and belt the umpire if uh call 322 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:38,159 doesn't go their way either. 323 00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:38,879 I don't know. 324 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:39,279 I think so. 325 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,200 Pretty enthusiastic. 326 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,080 Pretty enthusiastic. 327 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,759 All right, well, you know, we well, that's uh but that clients 328 00:14:45,759 --> 00:14:47,120 don't have to worry about that, which is great. 329 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:47,519 Yeah. 330 00:14:47,679 --> 00:14:51,519 You said you've got a team of 10 behind you right now, and then 331 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:53,919 every company gets a dedicated principal. 332 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,600 So when the when a CEO calls you at nine at night in a panic 333 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,799 because they just got a turn sheet and it's got a clause that 334 00:15:00,799 --> 00:15:03,519 they're like terrified is gonna bankrupt the company. 335 00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:04,720 What actually happens? 336 00:15:04,799 --> 00:15:06,720 Who who picks up the phone and their curlers? 337 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,799 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the CEO just calls me. 338 00:15:08,879 --> 00:15:11,759 Uh that's they they they generally call the principal 339 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:13,360 consultant with a question like that. 340 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,120 We can review it, we can read it. 341 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,799 We've seen it before. 342 00:15:17,039 --> 00:15:20,000 We can help them answer the question right off the bat. 343 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,039 If there's transactions or documents that need to be 344 00:15:23,039 --> 00:15:25,360 changed, we can get one of the attorneys to do it. 345 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,879 SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, you I'm a sucker for for comparison 346 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:30,559 tools and for rating tools. 347 00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:34,080 And you actually have a business legal rating tool on your 348 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:34,399 website. 349 00:15:34,559 --> 00:15:37,200 Can you can you share with me a little bit more about that? 350 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,559 How does how does a founder use that and what does a bad score 351 00:15:40,559 --> 00:15:40,720 mean? 352 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:41,519 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. 353 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,240 I I think my my wife actually suggested that. 354 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,039 She said, you know, you you should develop a system so 355 00:15:47,039 --> 00:15:50,000 people can rank themselves, so they can look at their own 356 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,399 issues and they can self-assess where they are. 357 00:15:52,559 --> 00:15:53,919 And so that's what we really did. 358 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,440 And it's right there on our website. 359 00:15:55,519 --> 00:15:58,960 And a person can go on there and put in some of their key 360 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,960 agreements and it'll web crawl out, it'll review their website, 361 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,159 it'll give them a score in the end, and then they can look at 362 00:16:06,159 --> 00:16:08,720 it and they say, hey, you know, we're doing a great job. 363 00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:11,440 We're triple A, we have triple A legal rating. 364 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,039 But most companies don't do that. 365 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,919 Most companies go through it and they say, you know, we got a C 366 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:16,559 legal rating. 367 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,639 There maybe there's some issues out there that we need to 368 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:20,480 address and and keep track of. 369 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:23,679 You know, they don't have privacy terms on their website, 370 00:16:23,759 --> 00:16:26,639 or they don't classify employees, or they don't keep 371 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:27,120 records. 372 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,000 And, you know, did you go through the assessment at all? 373 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:31,360 SPEAKER_02: I did not. 374 00:16:31,519 --> 00:16:34,159 I did if you go through that assessment, I'm afraid from what 375 00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:34,960 it might tell me. 376 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,759 It probably would say you're in desperate need of counsel, 377 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,519 you're a walking liability, and for heaven's sake, don't ever 378 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:44,639 hire someone that works directly for you in office. 379 00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:46,080 That's what I'm guessing. 380 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,360 That's what I'm guessing. 381 00:16:47,679 --> 00:16:50,080 SPEAKER_01: I don't think it'll be that bad, but it does, it's 382 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:51,840 it's really just a feedback mechanism. 383 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,360 We can all use feedback in life. 384 00:16:53,679 --> 00:16:57,440 And especially I often compare it, I most businessmen are they 385 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,279 don't realize that they are swimming in a legal environment, 386 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,240 that that everything around them, everything they do is 387 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:05,599 defined by laws. 388 00:17:05,759 --> 00:17:09,119 They get into business and it's a sweet business, and they they 389 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,319 think they're helping people. 390 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,640 And a good example is is truth in advertising or for marketing 391 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,599 companies, and technology marketing companies are in the 392 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,200 kind of marketing company. 393 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,559 They they believe in their product and they make claims 394 00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:26,640 about their product, and that's fine, but they need to have some 395 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,359 scientific evidence that backs up those claims. 396 00:17:29,599 --> 00:17:33,519 And, you know, you've seen people get huge fines, personal 397 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:34,880 and company fines. 398 00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:37,920 I remember one company back when I was doing a lot of direct 399 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,400 sales companies who they were making misrepresentations about 400 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,839 what a person could earn. 401 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,039 And it's it's not an easy question because a person could 402 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:48,480 earn millions of dollars. 403 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,680 And they had people who did earn millions of dollars. 404 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:55,759 And so the CEO would not think, well, I'm violating the law by 405 00:17:55,759 --> 00:17:57,440 saying you could earn millions of dollars. 406 00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:00,640 Here's Jim Smith over here, and he's earning millions of dollars 407 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:01,440 in my company. 408 00:18:01,599 --> 00:18:05,440 But the FTC has stricter standards for that, and uh you 409 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,680 you have to document it and say at the same time, but the 410 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:15,279 average person uh earns uh$19.20 or whatever, whatever the real 411 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:15,920 facts are. 412 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,039 You you have to um you can't omit things. 413 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,079 SPEAKER_02: And yeah, OnlyFans gave me that message when I 414 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:25,680 tried to start my site, and I was uh I was very relieved by 415 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:25,920 that. 416 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,119 Yeah, yeah. 417 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,000 I think 19 was an optimistic assessment, but I'm glad they 418 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:32,240 have that. 419 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,039 SPEAKER_01: I mean, would I like to see if they can bag that up 420 00:18:35,039 --> 00:18:36,160 with data, you know? 421 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,319 SPEAKER_02: Well, let's hope they never do. 422 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,519 SPEAKER_01: The the CEO is helping people, he's helping 423 00:18:41,519 --> 00:18:44,480 people earn money, he's helping people sell products, he's he's 424 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,279 helping a vast amount of people, and he doesn't realize he's 425 00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:49,680 swimming in an ocean of regulations and laws. 426 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:53,440 I mean, they're just the tax code is but the the FTC 427 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,720 regulations dwarf it. 428 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,319 And the Department of Education dwarfs that. 429 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,920 I mean, it's just there's so many things that can impact your 430 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,160 business that it's it's great to have a strategic advisor on your 431 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:06,400 team. 432 00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:10,480 Why don't why don't CEOs hire a strategic advisor, a legal 433 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,279 advisor who can help them with strategy from the very 434 00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:13,680 beginning? 435 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:14,559 What do you think? 436 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:19,200 SPEAKER_02: You managed 23,000 patents at Alcatel. 437 00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:22,240 And today I'm watching Martec founders file patents by the 438 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,240 hour on AI native products. 439 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,640 And some of the claims they're making are defensible. 440 00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:29,839 Some of the ROI claims they're making are not in terms of 441 00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:33,119 efficiency gains, in terms of automation gains, in terms of 442 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,720 headcount decrease requirement for uh, you know, what does a 443 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,640 founder actually need to know before they spend$15,000 on a 444 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:41,440 patent attorney? 445 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:42,880 SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a really good question. 446 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,279 And by the way, it's probably easier to manage 23,000 patents 447 00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:51,680 than it is a small patent portfolio, because with 23,000 448 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,400 patents, if someone comes at you with a patent, you've probably 449 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,279 got a patent they're infringing and you can work out something. 450 00:19:57,599 --> 00:20:00,480 If you have 20 patents, someone can come at you with a patent 451 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,720 and you can face real issues, or you might not have the money to 452 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:05,839 enforce your patents. 453 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,240 And so it's i i it's very strategic about what you do with 454 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:10,720 patents. 455 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,400 But in the end, nowadays, the way companies are evaluated, 456 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,519 your patent portfolio is a big part of your evaluation. 457 00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:20,559 Your not just your patents, but your copyrights, your trade 458 00:20:20,559 --> 00:20:20,960 secrets. 459 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,000 Sometimes when a big retail chain goes out of business, 460 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,240 their biggest asset is their trade name. 461 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:27,680 But patents are the same thing. 462 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:31,279 And it's like I've got one client that they probably got 463 00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:36,240 about 30 patents, and some of their patents are very they they 464 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,960 they can take potato starch and mix it with plastic and make the 465 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,200 plastic stronger, more durable, and yet biodegradable. 466 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:48,640 So it's, you know, there's really, really interesting 467 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,759 patents out there. 468 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,400 And when someone starts infringing it, then you've got 469 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,359 to have a war chest or you've got to have someone on your side 470 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:56,960 to help you enforce those patents. 471 00:20:57,279 --> 00:20:58,799 And you have a duty to enforce them. 472 00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:00,400 There's a document called latches. 473 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:02,160 If you don't enforce them, you can lose them. 474 00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:06,799 So yeah, it's uh it's it's a complicated environment that 475 00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:10,160 people are in in business, and you need a strategic legal 476 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,119 advisor on your team. 477 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:12,880 And you need it from the very beginning. 478 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:14,319 SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry. 479 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,960 Brought up the FTC is actively going after Martech companies 480 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,480 right now for deceptive AI claims. 481 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,440 You know, AI generated fake news, just being one of those, 482 00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:27,039 but algorithmic pricing that discriminates by zip code. 483 00:21:27,279 --> 00:21:29,680 You were at the front lines of the last major tech regulatory 484 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:32,640 way with telecoms you were like equity regulations and internet 485 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:33,119 law. 486 00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:34,720 How does this moment compare? 487 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,119 And do you see, do you think founders of these AI solutions 488 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,000 are more or less exposed than they think they are? 489 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:44,720 SPEAKER_01: I think they're more exposed than they think they 490 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:44,880 are. 491 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,359 And I think it's a it's still an uncertain field. 492 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,400 We still don't know exactly what's what's gonna happen. 493 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:56,079 I had a client talked to me today whose he he designed this 494 00:21:56,079 --> 00:21:57,200 great program. 495 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,440 It's gonna solve a lot of problems. 496 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:03,759 And uh immediately when he describes it to people, they see 497 00:22:03,759 --> 00:22:04,400 its value. 498 00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:06,400 How's how's he gonna protect it? 499 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,880 Well, if it's part of a machine process, perhaps a patent, 500 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:14,640 certainly with copyright, but here's the catch is he came up 501 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,279 with the concepts and used AI to do the programming. 502 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,119 So who owns the copyright? 503 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:22,240 It's gonna be, and it hasn't been determined by courts yet. 504 00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:26,079 I mean, there's some advisories out from the patent office and 505 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:28,319 that type of thing, but it remains to be seen. 506 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,640 And so I think having someone strategically on your team is is 507 00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:37,119 a good bet right now to help you see the environment you're 508 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:37,680 swimming in. 509 00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:40,640 I think I think it's I think it's even greater than when 510 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:41,839 software first came on. 511 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,559 A AI is going to change the world much more. 512 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:46,720 SPEAKER_02: Well, I I I take your point. 513 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,079 I mean, we've we're developing tools that are developing tools 514 00:22:50,079 --> 00:22:52,319 that are delivering product that are being sold. 515 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,279 It's like who wrote it? 516 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:54,160 Who could take claim? 517 00:22:54,799 --> 00:22:59,680 Most developers now are using AI development tools. 518 00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:03,519 And they're amongst the most sticky of the products that are 519 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:03,839 out there. 520 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,440 And there seems to be a rush by the VCs to invest in these 521 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:07,839 tools. 522 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,680 And as you've just brought up, we still haven't got the case 523 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,960 law on who owns the IP that is derived from those in the end. 524 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,200 I'm sure that there's something that the development tool firm 525 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,880 is signing away, but how much is what's going to actually come 526 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:25,839 out in litigation? 527 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,359 Now, here's another thing that came up in our in our prep call 528 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,759 that I know is gonna resonate with the founders. 529 00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:34,880 And it was when you mentioned enterprise software contracts, 530 00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:39,119 where a$250,000 deal lands on the desk of Lockheed's legal 531 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,240 department and they want to redline 75% of it. 532 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,160 Walk a founder through what happens without in-house counsel 533 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,960 in that scenario versus with you already in the corner. 534 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,599 SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that's where the business experience 535 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:52,400 really comes in. 536 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:53,759 It's just not working. 537 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,880 I've seen contracts not happen because of both sides legal 538 00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:02,240 marking up the contract so that's and so what you really 539 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,400 have to do is sit down with the CEO from a from years of 540 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,480 experience and say, this clause is they're right in their 541 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,400 markup, but it's not important. 542 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:15,680 This clause they missed, but it's really important. 543 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,920 And and explain the consequences and the risks to the CEO. 544 00:24:20,079 --> 00:24:23,279 In my opinion, the CEO always has to, he's the final decision 545 00:24:23,279 --> 00:24:23,599 maker. 546 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,640 He has to decide what risk he's willing to assume and what risk 547 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,279 he isn't. 548 00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:32,240 But he really needs someone who can explain the risk and help 549 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,200 him handicap. 550 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,440 Do you have uh many times I sit down with the CEO and said this 551 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,400 is an important thing, there's a 20% risk of it happening. 552 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:44,480 There's an 80% risk that you'll never see any consequences from. 553 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,000 That helps the CEO in making a decision about what he's gonna 554 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:48,240 do. 555 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,359 Now, there's some things that are, you know, this is against 556 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,720 the law, you can't do it. 557 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,279 But there are some things that there's a clause in a contract, 558 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,519 you could do it this way, you could do it that way, this way, 559 00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:00,480 there's an 80% risk, this way, there's a 20% risk. 560 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,200 So you can help you can help handicap that. 561 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,079 And that's, I think, of more value to a CEO than anybody who 562 00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:10,799 just says, technically, this should be redlined. 563 00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:14,799 SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, de-risking an investment in a 564 00:25:14,799 --> 00:25:18,319 software company is certain, certainly something the board is 565 00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:19,119 interested in. 566 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,400 And uh, you know, the earlier they can have a competent 567 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,599 counsel involved on these issues, I think the more 568 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:29,039 interested they're gonna be in in managing their risk and 569 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:30,400 exposure in that investment. 570 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,720 Now, speaking of which, you've raised 83 million in uh venture 571 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,640 capital for just one of your companies. 572 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,119 What does a VC grade legal paperwork actually look like? 573 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,559 And what do founders get wrong in their fundraising docs that 574 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:49,039 quietly erodes their their uh position when uh they get the 575 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:52,319 term sheet, which uh can have gotten pretty draconian. 576 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:54,799 SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it's you're you're gonna deal with 577 00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:58,640 some exemption usually from the Securities Exchange Act. 578 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,799 Need to invest with so many accredited investors and so many 579 00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:05,920 unaccredited investors, and you have to paper all of that. 580 00:26:06,079 --> 00:26:09,519 You have to make sure that uh there's a subscription agreement 581 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:12,319 that the person subscribes to where they make representations 582 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:14,480 about their sophistication and that kind of thing. 583 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,839 And you can have, depending on what the exemption is, so many 584 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:18,160 of them. 585 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:22,400 In the case when I did it, being an attorney myself, I went to 586 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,359 Venable in Washington, D.C., which is a large law firm in 587 00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:28,000 Washington, D.C., and had them do the paperwork because I 588 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,480 didn't want to prejudice it for my own company. 589 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,480 But and and it cost$100,000 to have them do the paperwork. 590 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:34,960 Sure. 591 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,119 But you know, but we raised$83 million. 592 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:39,519 So, you know, it was it was worth doing. 593 00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:41,920 SPEAKER_02: Well, you weren't, I'm sure you weren't exposed. 594 00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:43,440 I'm sure you were exposed. 595 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,680 Now, you've actually written a couple of books on integrity as 596 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,559 a business principle. 597 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,039 One that was co-authored with Steve Albrecht. 598 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,799 And in this startup world where move fast and break things has 599 00:26:54,799 --> 00:26:58,559 been the gospel for a decade, and a lot of those things that 600 00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:01,279 got broken were legal and ethical guardrails. 601 00:27:01,599 --> 00:27:04,000 Make the case that integrity isn't the right thing. 602 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,160 It's actually the smarter business play. 603 00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:06,640 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 604 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,519 You know, I I think I learned this a little bit from Jim 605 00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:13,680 Donald, who was the CEO of uh Digital Switch Corporation 606 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,680 before it got acquired by Alcatel. 607 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,839 And then um as a part of Alcatel, he ran the company for 608 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:24,160 a little while, but uh he sold it and for seven billion 609 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,920 dollars, I think, or something like that. 610 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,960 But uh he would always say, do the right thing right now. 611 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,880 So it was important to him to get things done, but it was 612 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,200 important for him to follow the process. 613 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,200 So in the in the book, I make the case that there's there's a 614 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,480 set of principles that if followed will always get the 615 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:47,119 same result. 616 00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:50,799 And there's a set of, there's a hundred set of principles that 617 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,279 if followed will not get the result you're looking for. 618 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,119 And so the the fastest, most efficient, most effective way to 619 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,440 accomplish anything is to follow the rules that are time-tested 620 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,559 to achieve that result. 621 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,519 And you can always receive that result, receive that result. 622 00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:07,119 And that's what I mean by integrity. 623 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,839 I mean constantly doing the right thing right and following 624 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:12,640 that prescription. 625 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,480 And so I've just released another book this last week on 626 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:17,039 Amazon. 627 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,880 It's called Pattern Recognition. 628 00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:22,799 And I was inspired, I attended a Tony Robbins seminar, and Tony 629 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:25,920 Robbins asked the question what is the most important skill you 630 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:26,319 can have? 631 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,200 And a lot of people said leadership, honesty, empathy, a 632 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,000 lot of different things. 633 00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,559 And he said, No, he says the most important skill that you 634 00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:36,480 have to have in life is pattern recognition. 635 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,359 And then he didn't go into it a whole lot, but it made me start 636 00:28:39,359 --> 00:28:40,960 thinking about it and studying it. 637 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:45,599 And I I wrote a whole book on it, on pattern recognition, the 638 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:47,440 master skill that changes everything. 639 00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:50,400 And but then I realized I've kind of written the same book. 640 00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:53,279 I've written a book on integrity, which is follow the 641 00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:54,480 pattern and you get the result. 642 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,000 And I wrote pattern recognition, which is follow the pattern and 643 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:58,559 get the result. 644 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,759 The problem is, is a lot of us don't see the patterns we're 645 00:29:01,759 --> 00:29:02,240 following. 646 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,160 So learning how to recognize, you can't change something you 647 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:06,799 can't see. 648 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,839 So learning to recognize that pattern, it's so funny because 649 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,519 we can see the pattern in our bank accounts, we can see the 650 00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:18,720 pattern in our relationships, but we don't, we don't realize 651 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,440 that it's a pattern that we're following it because it's inside 652 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:21,920 of ourselves. 653 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,400 So we have to kind of step out of ourselves and look at and 654 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,640 say, you know, bank account is showing me that I'm not 655 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,240 following a very good financial pattern. 656 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,480 What is the financial pattern I should be following? 657 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,359 And then I do that for each of the areas that I cover in my 658 00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:36,559 other books, which is how do you have integrity in the social 659 00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:36,880 setting? 660 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:38,799 How do you have it in a financial setting? 661 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,400 How do you have it in a physical setting? 662 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,359 All these you know different areas of life. 663 00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:47,759 So yeah, I've really enjoyed uh I I'm sure that I learned 664 00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:51,359 probably no one will read any of my books, but I've learned a lot 665 00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:52,240 in writing them. 666 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,039 And Stephen Govey always taught, if you want to learn something, 667 00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:55,920 teach it. 668 00:29:56,079 --> 00:29:59,599 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I mean, he he had he had a point there 669 00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:00,880 to a certain extent. 670 00:30:01,039 --> 00:30:07,279 Now I'm I'm dying to ask you this, you know, and and no names 671 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,519 needed need to be uh mentioned here, but can can you think of a 672 00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:15,519 time when a founder asked you to help them do something that that 673 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:17,519 technically it was legal? 674 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,119 It was about board, but you pushed back and and what 675 00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:22,079 happened after that? 676 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,359 SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, yeah, I can think of some things like 677 00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:28,480 that because you know what, everybody's gonna make some 678 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,799 mistakes and people want to accomplish something that is 679 00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:33,920 beneficial, you know. 680 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:36,720 People want to go out and they want to serve others and they 681 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,400 want to provide a better life for others, and their their 682 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,880 goals as a CEO are usually, you know, the more people I serve. 683 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:48,319 Cal Worthington, you uh car dealer in Los Angeles used to 684 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:51,039 say, sell to the masses, eat with the classes. 685 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,400 And really what that means is solve the problem of the biggest 686 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,599 problems you can for the most people you can, and you'll earn 687 00:30:57,599 --> 00:30:59,440 the biggest rewards that you can. 688 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,039 And so there's there's lots of instances like that. 689 00:31:03,119 --> 00:31:06,319 But I I do remember some instances where maybe someone 690 00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:12,000 wanted to uh continue to make a representation that was 691 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,720 technically against the law or even just against the correct 692 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:17,440 principles. 693 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:22,640 And and usually in those circumstances, there was a price 694 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:23,440 to pay at the end. 695 00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:26,319 Either you didn't accomplish your result that you were hoping 696 00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:26,880 to accomplish. 697 00:31:27,039 --> 00:31:31,599 I've seen that happen many times with CEOs, or you get a negative 698 00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:31,839 result. 699 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,039 SPEAKER_02: So don't push the, don't don't push it, don't push 700 00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:38,480 it too hard when it comes to the legal side of the equation. 701 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:41,039 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and and it's really more important 702 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:44,400 to follow the correct principle than it is the law, because the 703 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,319 law is sometimes, and I'm not saying break the law, but I'm 704 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,920 I'm saying sometimes in my own case in California for a long 705 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,079 time, I tried to always follow the speed limit. 706 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,480 My wife convinced me that I was a hazard on some of the 707 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:01,119 freeways. 708 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,319 I was a hazard because people have to go out around me on both 709 00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:05,359 sides, right? 710 00:32:06,319 --> 00:32:10,160 So is it true that sometimes you can follow the law, but to get a 711 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:10,960 bad result? 712 00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:16,640 Um and that's just an easy example, but you you can never 713 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,720 break a correct principle and get a good result. 714 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:19,119 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 715 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,359 Well, today, if a if a VC is evaluating a Series A or Series 716 00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:27,680 B Martech or AI company and they want to do a quick legal health 717 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,319 check, what are the five questions they should be asking 718 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,960 the founders that most of them aren't asking? 719 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,279 SPEAKER_01: I think do you do you have a compliance 720 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:35,680 department? 721 00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:39,200 Do you have someone who's responsible for compliance? 722 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:40,400 Do they keep records? 723 00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:42,480 Is it vetted by legal? 724 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,400 And then is it documented at the top level? 725 00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:51,759 I mean, one of the things that a CEO one time didn't want to sign 726 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:56,720 the document that set forth the standard by which the business 727 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,359 would operate. 728 00:32:57,519 --> 00:32:59,279 And I said, you gotta sign it. 729 00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:02,400 You know, it can't be signed by a vice president, it can't be 730 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,039 signed by uh your legal officer. 731 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,640 It it comes from you. 732 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:10,799 Every every, in fact, you not signing it will give license to 733 00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:13,200 everyone in the company to not follow it. 734 00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:15,680 You know, it it's it's gotta come from the top. 735 00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:18,640 And so that's one of the questions that I'd really want 736 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,200 to know is does the CEO live the principles of culture of the 737 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:23,839 company? 738 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,279 And another question might just be what is the culture of the 739 00:33:27,279 --> 00:33:28,640 company to get to five. 740 00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:31,119 SPEAKER_02: That's that's my that's my question. 741 00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:32,240 That's my question. 742 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,079 I'm asking what the culture is. 743 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,759 Yeah, it does come down to values and what's going to 744 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:41,680 differentiate one company for another, oftentimes it is what 745 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:42,799 are the values of the company? 746 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,519 And you can measure those with a legal rubric as well as uh uh a 747 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:48,319 survey. 748 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:49,200 But either way. 749 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,680 SPEAKER_01: And Al could tell everybody in the company knew 750 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,039 that we did the right things right. 751 00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:55,920 And you'd never get in trouble for doing the right thing right. 752 00:33:56,079 --> 00:33:57,359 You'd always be supported. 753 00:33:57,519 --> 00:33:59,279 But that has to come consistent. 754 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:01,359 It has to come consistent from the top. 755 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,559 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that'll be uh, you know, that's uh I wonder how 756 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:08,800 that plays out in the world of startups where you've got a 757 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,280 founder who has promised certain numbers of performance to a 758 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,079 board and then has to go back and report to them that uh those 759 00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:20,559 numbers were wildly optimistic. 760 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:27,280 Is there any due diligence that uh a VC can do to not be in that 761 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:28,960 situation from a legal perspective? 762 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,320 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think from a legal perspective, I mean they 763 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,960 can they can uh have representations made and they 764 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,039 can back out of the deal or something if those 765 00:34:39,039 --> 00:34:40,719 representations aren't lived up to. 766 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,400 From from just a regular perspective, though, you know, 767 00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:47,360 if they can't deliver closely to what they say they're gonna 768 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,840 deliver, there better be a really good reason, an 769 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,679 unforeseeable reason, a reason that great minds sitting around 770 00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:55,360 couldn't have anticipated, right? 771 00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:58,639 Because I think that's what you expect of your CEO, is that he's 772 00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:02,159 gonna put the right players on his team to make sure that those 773 00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:04,480 types of situations don't happen. 774 00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:08,239 Yeah, well, I've still got a job, so they're not doing it. 775 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,639 It's not a strategy, but you're right. 776 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,719 They they still have a job sometimes. 777 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,679 And so and you've seen, I mean, a lot of businesses fail or go 778 00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:20,000 under for failing to meet their expectations. 779 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,519 On the other hand, Jim Donald at Alcatel used to say, I'm not 780 00:35:23,519 --> 00:35:27,199 gonna let some snot-nosed 25-year-old analyst on Wall 781 00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:29,360 Street tell me how to run my company. 782 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,320 So that's that that's another aspect of it is other people 783 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,280 will make representations about what you should be doing. 784 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:40,000 And you may not agree with those representations. 785 00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:42,719 You may say, Yeah, I could get there if I took shortcuts, but 786 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,840 I'm not taking shortcuts. 787 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,199 SPEAKER_02: So stick to your values. 788 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:45,519 Yeah. 789 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,199 Well, you just got described the sweet spot for your model as 790 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,480 companies between 10 million and 150 million in revenue. 791 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:54,880 So late series A through the growth stage. 792 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,079 And what's the tell? 793 00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:59,199 How does the CEO know that they've waited too long to bring 794 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:00,159 in-house counsel? 795 00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:04,639 SPEAKER_01: I think one tell is when the CEO is spending too 796 00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:07,840 much of his time managing legal issues, dealing with attorneys, 797 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,559 hearing complaints, working with disputes. 798 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,440 It can be very distracting to the growth of your company. 799 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:16,159 If you're the one, well, first of all, if you have someone on 800 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:18,159 your team from the very beginning, you're probably not 801 00:36:18,159 --> 00:36:20,000 going to be dealing with those in the first place. 802 00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:23,360 But second of all, if you if you hire, you've been out there for 803 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,639 two or three years, you're growing and you're starting to 804 00:36:26,639 --> 00:36:30,159 deal, or your CFO is starting to deal with those problems, you're 805 00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:32,159 spending a lot of money on legal. 806 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,639 I think it's time to bring someone in who knows what 807 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:36,320 they're doing to manage that environment. 808 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,360 You wouldn't, you wouldn't have your HR person manage your 809 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,320 finances, or you wouldn't try and manage them yourself because 810 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:43,920 they take too much of your time. 811 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:48,079 You want to focus on marketing and sales and satisfying company 812 00:36:48,079 --> 00:36:49,199 needs and employees. 813 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,039 And so why would you have manage your own legal issues or have 814 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:56,400 someone who's not trained in either the business or the legal 815 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,159 side manage your legal issues? 816 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,639 SPEAKER_02: Well, this brings us to our last question, George. 817 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,880 And I do ask everyone this when it comes to advice. 818 00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:07,679 You know, you've been in rooms where people have and it will 819 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,639 never get near, you know, that billion-dollar deal, that 820 00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:14,800 landmark litigation case, companies at the edge of what at 821 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,000 the time was possible. 822 00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:20,000 What's the one thing you know now that you wish every Martec 823 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,119 and e-commerce founder listening today could hear before they 824 00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:25,039 make their first big legal mistake? 825 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:26,639 SPEAKER_01: That's really a good question. 826 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,679 You know, um, I have had lots of those experiences and sitting in 827 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:36,800 those rooms, and I've I've found that the best CEOs, the ones who 828 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,559 run the biggest companies for the most part, are very humble 829 00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:45,280 people and very willing to bring in, surround themselves with 830 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,199 people who they think are smarter than them. 831 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,719 I would doubt that sometimes, but that's what they're looking 832 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:50,960 for. 833 00:37:51,199 --> 00:37:54,719 They're looking for people who are smarter than them to help 834 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,119 them see the nuances of every situation. 835 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,679 And I've been surprised by that because I thought, well, 836 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,960 probably most CEOs are narcissists who are demanding 837 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,239 and don't listen to other people. 838 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,119 I haven't found that among the great CEOs that I've known 839 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:08,000 throughout my life. 840 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:12,719 I've I've found very humble people willing to surround 841 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,079 themselves with excellence. 842 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,280 And I think that's the best advice I could give is surround 843 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:18,239 yourself with excellence. 844 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,320 SPEAKER_02: So if your CEO is a narcissistic psychopath, it's 845 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,159 probably not going to go that far. 846 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,320 Just some food for thought. 847 00:38:26,559 --> 00:38:30,480 And uh, you know, I'll I'll look forward to the comments on this 848 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:30,960 episode. 849 00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:34,480 But George, I want to thank you so much for spending some time 850 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:35,199 with us today. 851 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,360 It's been extremely educational. 852 00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:38,400 SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Daryl. 853 00:38:38,559 --> 00:38:41,039 It's I love your questions and I love your podcast. 854 00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:44,079 I think it is making a big difference in people's lives. 855 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,880 SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, and thanks to everyone out there 856 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:47,440 listening. 857 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:49,280 We'll see you next week. 858 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,679 SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Mar Talks, the number one 859 00:38:55,679 --> 00:38:58,880 podcast for e-commerce and marketing applications. 860 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,320 Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and 861 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,639 while you're at it, leave a rating and review. 862 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,920 To find out more about how the Rosenstein Group can help you 863 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,639 find the right leaders for your client development teams in 864 00:39:10,639 --> 00:39:12,239 Martech and e-commerce. 865 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,079 Please visit our website at Rosenstein Group.com.