RERELEASE: Bridging the gap between marketers and consumers: Insights from Gayle Troberman, executive advisor at iHeartMedia

Hey there, it's Alan. Quick note before we start, today's episode is a re-release from our archives. Originally aired July 2025, we're re-sharing it for anyone who may have missed it the first time because it's a great discussion. You may hear a few references that place it in 2025, but the insights really hold up.

All right, let's get into it. Today on the show I've got Gail Troberman. She's an executive advisor at iHeartMedia. In this role, she works with all the iHeartMedia businesses to help them connect with consumers in a much more deep way.

Today on the show, we're going to talk about some research that she does, the new American consumer, how it came about, what some of the stats and findings, which are phenomenal, and the disconnect between marketers, these coastal beings, if you will, that are maybe disconnected with the everyday consumer and how consumers actually feel ignored by the ads that we actually create and the marketing we create for them. So that and much more with Gail Troberman. Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?

I'm Alan Hart, and this is Marketing Beyond, where I chat with the world's leading chief marketing officers and business innovators to share ideas that spark change and inspire you to challenge the status quo. Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential. Well, Gail, welcome to the show. Oh, thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation because it's going to weave and go a lot of different directions. But something about a podcaster is in the middle of it. And we're doing a podcast. I'm sure we'll talk about sound at some point.

Audio will find its way into this conversation. I love it. I love it. Well, one thing before we get into the business side of things, I hear you are a very good Muppet fan or a very excited Muppet fan.

I am a huge Muppet fan. I have been. I think I was first generation Sesame Street. So I was like that perfect age when it started airing.

And I just got hooked on Muppets. And it's a funny story. My wife and I, a lot, you know, we try to remind ourselves how crazy lucky we are, you know, to have the lives we have, the love we have, the friends, the opportunity, the fun things we get to do. And so we created this word.

We call it Muppalucky. And basically, it's that idea. We try to say it to each other all the time when we're having a crappy day or things aren't going right. Because Muppa Lucky, in my definition of this new word I coined, is when you realize how lucky you are that you kind of want to bounce up and down like a Muppet.

Muppets have a way of evoking joy that we all need to remember. So hopefully this will be a lovely Muppa Lucky day for us both. Yes. Yeah, I hope so.

I love that. Muppa Lucky. Well, tell me about your career path. You were most recently CMO at iHeart.

You are now in kind of an executive advisor role. But where did you get your start and kind of some of the highlights, if you will? Sure. You know, I majored in TV radio communications because I was a huge fan of TV and radio.

And that was the only thing on the checklist back in the day that seemed to make sense. And then I realized advertising was kind of fun and I love the psychology of it. And I kind of specialized in that in college, went out to become a creative and get a creative director job and stuff. And that looked really fun and cool.

And at the time, back in the early agency days, you know, when I was graduating in the late 80s, they made you do entry level assistant jobs. And so they'd move you around to different departments. And so I ended up getting put in a PR job and getting promoted before I ever moved to another team. And so instead of becoming a creative director, I became a PR person.

And I think it was the best place in the world to learn the art of communication, right? When you can pay for the space, you can kind of, you know, maybe it's easier. But when you have to convince other people to tell the story or to let you tell the story, it's a different art. And you have to think a lot harder and be a lot more thoughtful, I think, about the others and the recipients of stories.

So PR was a great place to learn my career. And then I ended up at Microsoft. We had pitched some of their business and not wanted in the PR world, went over there, started in PR and ended up having a series of just incredible jobs with the genius people that were sitting in Redmond. And we fought a lot of amazing battles.

My last job there, I was a chief creative officer running advertising, running all our agencies, a job I had no right whatsoever to have. But I got to learn from all the best, like the best of the best people in creative. And, you know, it was just an amazing time. And then years later, I met Bob Pittman.

And similarly, I didn't know much about audio. I'd done some, but I didn't know much. And I just thought it was after talking to him, such an underutilized platform and craft and skill set. And so I got really excited again about the creative potential and another job.

I didn't know quite what it would be. You can sort of see the thread. Most of my most important job moves or career changes were all about just stumbling towards great, smart people. And here we are.

I love that. I love that. Well, you spent, I think, over 10 years as CMO at IR. And, you know, if you look at any of the news, tenure is a big thing.

CMO tenure, yeah. What's your secret? What's your secret? What's my secret?

You know, I think most things that matter in life are endurance sports, right? They're going to be good days and bad. And, you know, you're going to win and lose some battles internally and externally with the consumers. But, you know, for me, it's interesting.

We just did a panel here at the Marketing Hall of Fame and we were talking about like brands and enduring stories. And I think one of the things it's career advice and it's brand advice. Like you have to you have to realize that like things don't happen overnight and, you know, you're not going to change the world and you're not going to change the company and you're not going to change the brand and the trajectory in a minute. And I think we've all gotten, you know, as life is sped up and technology is sped up life, we've all gotten enamored of this immediacy.

Right. And then the adaptability. Right. And and showing up differently in these different places.

And for me, I like big, hard problems, right? Getting marketers to get over their visual bias and really get serious about the power of audio is not easy. And that's the battle I've been fighting for 10 years. And we've made a ton of strides.

I think you're seeing audio really have a renaissance again. I think podcasting's made it a little top of mind. but I think people are realizing the reach and the mass reach potential with broadcast radio. And I mean, audio is the most versatile and flexible thing.

So creatively, you know, it just doesn't get old helping. What I get to do at iHeart is I get to help other people build their brands using our platform. So it's kind of fun. It's not just marketing iHeart, it's marketing iHeart to the marketing community.

And so that's just been an incredible ride. And I think we're just seeing more and more brilliant work crossing the airwaves as audio creative. Still room to go. There's still a lot of crappy creative.

My work isn't quite done. No, not done yet. You talk about your career and spending time at Microsoft and IPG and iHeart. You've seen a lot of change over that, especially as a marketer.

Is there any enduring truths, if you will, of like what's still relevant today? Oh, sure. You know, I mean, the technology changes, the buzzwords change, right? But, you know, I'm sitting on panels now and, you know, you can take out the word AI and insert the word digital or internet, right?

You know, every time a new technology comes along or podcasting, right? Every time a new platform emerges, marketers think it's like the world has to change. And it really doesn't, right? If you know who your brand is and you know where you want to go find growth, then it's about telling good stories.

It's about being relevant to those consumers. I think, you know, I think we've gotten so enamored. We talk a lot about this at iHeart. I think in the digital era, the biggest challenge that we face is that we somehow, because we started getting more data and being able to target more, that we started thinking the target was the only target.

Right And I think we stopped talking to too many people Right The bullseye might be your target audience right And we love our target audience We spend all this time obsessing about those archetypes and the greedy striver who loves this and that and only does these things and the Gen Zer who loves adventure And we put all these dimensions around the bullseye. And then we forget, like, if you're a best reach brand in America or you want to be the biggest brand in your category, you have to talk to a lot of people to grow.

And if you just win the bullseye, you're not going to win. So I think we're in this world where we're, in a lot of ways, we're letting technology get in the way of growth. And, you know, I think there's room for mass reach, big ideas that are universal. We're talking about, you know, listing the ingredients of the Big Mac.

Right. Right? We can all still do that. That is powerful marketing.

And it didn't matter if you were a teen or a senior. You could list the ingredients of the Big Mac and it was in your head. And when lunchtime came around, there's a good chance you might go buy one. Right?

And so I think we sometimes let new innovation get in the way of growth, right? Or we get so enamored of the technology or the opportunity that we forget any of these platforms, any of these new tools, whether it's AI or targeting, they're only as good as the stories we put out there. and sometimes our growth is going to be everywhere not just like at the bullseye yeah yeah yeah well and to your point if you want to grow you want to grow your brand you've got appeal to more people and and a lot of people are not buying you every day either oh i know that is so true right i think i saw a stat once on something like i think in like a beverage category or carbonated beverages I think a casual consumer of like a cola buys two a year.

Right, right. Right? So there's the person who drinks a ton of your product and you're probably overspending on them. And they're buying it and they love it and they drink, you know, several a day.

Right. And then there's this casual consumer, but you don't know when those two - so how can you be in my consideration set? Right. Right?

You know, it's funny, Bob Pittman, my boss, always says, you know, he like goes out to dinner most nights and his assistant will be like, where do you want to go tonight? You're having dinner with so-and-so. And he'll always be like, I have the same two restaurants in my head, right? So if you're a restaurant and you can get in my head, you're going to expand that consideration set exponentially.

Right. Right. And that's where creating memory structures is so important. I think marketers are not thinking as hard as they should about neuroscience and brain science and memory structures.

And that all sounds very futuristic, but it's really as simple as the jingles we all remember. To all beef patty, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun. I don't know the last time that ad ran or when I heard it, but I still, when he mentioned it, I can't. You know it.

Right? And that's when that's in your consideration set. Right? You've got to get into my memory and you've got to get in in a way that you encode that and you file it.

And audio is so much better at that when you look at neuro studies. Because we were just saying earlier, what did you have for breakfast? Right? If I showed you breakfast in a video spot, I'd be wrong.

Right. Right? There's a very big chance, a big margin of error. If I show you a healthy thing, you had an unhealthy thing.

If I show you eggs, you had fruit, whatever. Right? But if I say, hey, Alan, what'd you have for breakfast? And me, a sandwich.

Right? But you just, more brain cells fire. Yeah, yeah. It's the power of audio.

And I don't think people use it well enough. Like, the power of audio is ask me a question, and every listener across America is picturing their breakfast. Now, if you want to tell me, was it healthy or not? Was it too expensive?

Was it on the run? Blah, blah. Whatever you want to sell me, you can reach me. Me.

Right? And I will remember it longer because I'm using more neurons because I'm picturing it myself. Like the brain is the best production machine out there. And I just don't think we use audio the right way to just ask questions.

No, I love that. I love that. Well, I know one of the areas that you're going to stay close to in this new kind of evolved role is your new American consumer research. And you've done a couple of studies.

But I want to know how it came about. Like, where did you? Oh, it's a great story. We were doing an event at our offices for marketers.

And at times we'll bring out some of the more interesting podcasters and let them have a conversation with brands and talk about podcasting and advertising. And Malcolm Gladwell is one of our most genius podcasters with the Pushkin team at iHeart. And he was speaking that night at our event. And we were sitting around for the event.

And we were talking. And he's like, you're the CMO. And he's like, he's like, can you can you just answer one question for me? I know my listeners.

Why don't the brands want to just jump on the phone, have a quick conversation, and then let me talk about their stuff to my listeners in a way my listeners will find interesting. Right. And I was like, could it be that simple? And, you know, Malcolm being way smarter than I will ever be.

He started, you know, hypothesizing on where it breaks down. And one of his theories was that marketers live in this world that's very East Coast elite. We live in a bubble. We live in a world that isn't necessarily the same as the people we're trying to talk to.

And he had this brilliant idea of what if we actually pointed that out? Like what is the gap between what marketers think and what real American consumers think? And so that was the impetus of the study. We've done two waves of the research.

We, I think, sort of turned it into an annual thing. And the memorable facts from it that get marketers' attention are simple, simple things like the first study we learned that half of Americans have never heard of an Aperol Sprint. Insert gasps, right? How is that possible?

Right? You know, zero percent of marketers have never heard of an Aperol Sprint. And it goes on and on. You know, what do people find cool and cringy?

You know, marketers think pickleball is the coolest thing on the planet. Real people find it kind of cringy. They love hunting and fishing. Real people love lottery tickets.

I mean, a dollar and a dream, right? Marketers think they're cringy. I'm not sure why. I don't get that one.

But, you know, and we went deeper into values and a lot of more meaningful things that really, They start reflecting that the average marketer may not be as in touch with their consumers the way they think they are, even though we're living in an age where we have more data at our fingertips than ever before. And that's a huge problem. I mean, you're seeing so many brands not growing. And I think part of the problem is that we're very often talking to ourselves and our ads are reflecting this bubble we live in and our ads are not reflecting the values, the beliefs, the interests, the passions of the real American consumer.

And so we've got to break out of that bubble. And that's a lot of what we we have spent time with this research trying to help marketers. Right. Well, and I think I don't want to call anyone out, but there's been some high profile brands that have done exactly that and kind of like missed the mark with their.

Totally. Yeah. There's been a lot of fiascos in marketing. Right.

And and, you know, we do live in a cancel culture world where, you know, when you miss people notice. You know, one of the sort of depressing stats from the last wave of this new American consumer research was 44% of American consumers feel ignored by media and brands. 44%, almost half of our potential customers don't even think we see them. Right?

And, you know, it's funny when I was prepping for to present this research with Malcolm the first time we rolled it out, I was sitting in a hotel room in New York and the TV was on in the background without the sound. And I saw three, you know, ads that all had pickleball in them. And I was like, there it is. That is the problem.

We think it's cool and new and next. Right. I mean, look at NFTs. When we did this research was the height of NFT marketing.

Right. And like, you know, two thirds of consumers had never heard of an NFT. But how much time and energy did we waste trying to be first and cool and new and next and completely missing the mark and throwing a lot of money away on NFT? Well, with so many people feeling ignored, like what do you feel like marketers should be doing to make sure that they are connecting in the right way?

Sure. I mean, you know, I think it's getting in touch with real people, getting out of L.A. and New York.

You know, I happen to live most of the year in some real towns in America and Utah and Rhode Island, Whidbey Island. And you know I spend a lot of time outside New York and L which I think really helps to stay in touch And then you got to ask the right questions And you got to go to places that make you feel uncomfortable I think a lot of times, you know, it's the bane of my existence. You know, I'll explain like the massive reach of broadcast radio today. Nine out of 10 consumers are listening to broadcast radio.

Nielsen data, is that my data? Not spinning it. Every month, nine out of 10 Americans are listening to broadcast radio, right? And we, you know, we know it.

We see it. You know, Ryan Seacrest or Elvis Duran, Charlemagne, they're on air right now while we're talking, talking to 10, 12 million Americans live and unscripted for four hours. Yeah. Right.

And that's why people are listening because it's humans talking live and unscripted to me. And they're there whenever I have that time or I need human connection. And marketers just don't believe that that's the amazing opportunity it is. Right.

We have a conversation about live media and people go, oh, yeah, we've got to. to be in sports. All right. Great.

You might also want to try broadcast radio. Right. Right. Or, you know, people, like I said, marketers are so attached to our visuals.

We agonize about our logo and the transparentness and, you know, how the translucent the bubbles are and how the logo spins and that, you know, that end of that spot. But we're we're missing a huge opportunity with audio and it's cheaper and it's faster and it's more efficient and it has massive reach. And so, you I think that's just like one of those huge opportunities. If you want to get back in touch with real Americans, start doing radio and start doing local radio.

Right. Think about what you want to say to people in Boston versus Louisville, Miami, right, versus Portland, Maine. Right. And show up like think about showing up in communities because people live in real community.

And if you can show up and be part of their world and part of their life and acknowledge you're showing up there, you're in their place, their town, you share some values, you can make people, whatever, laugh or inform them or educate them, whatever you want to do, but do it in their language on their terms. huge opportunity. And I think you'll be shocked by how powerful it is versus that hyper produced thing that we all get so excited about our, our spot. You know, there's just other ways to show up in real people's lives.

And I think they'll feel seen and feel heard. Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you, you've got a zealot in audio. I'm a podcaster.

So you're talking to the choir. Yeah. I believe in the platform. Yeah.

I mean, watch it. Podcasting is the fastest growing medium, I think, in the history of media. And it is the least scripted. It's very intimate.

I mean, you're literally in their ears, usually. Yeah. And now everyone wants to churn audio podcasts. I think a lot of the reason people love them is because you can multitask, right?

You can go for a run and listen to a podcast. You can walk the dog and listen to a podcast. You can drive to pick up the kids from school and listen to a podcast or a radio show. That's part of why people love it.

They pop in and out of audio all day long as it fits into your life. And now I think there's this push, particularly by marketers, less by podcasters, to turn it into video. We like video. But I think the reason people are loving podcasting is the power of that audio.

And, you know, when you put a camera in front of somebody, this conversation gets less, right? It gets less real and we get a little more self-conscious. And, you know, so I think as we evolve, you know, podcasts into video, you have to think about when, where, and why. But first and foremost, I think that live, unscripted human conversation, we're all craving it.

We're kind of lonely. No, I agree. I agree. Well, one of the things in the report, I think it may be the most recent one, but maybe I've got that wrong, is this notion of influencers.

And we think about influencers, but we don't think of, and marketers, I think, think about influencers very, very differently than. Who really influences? I mean, think about it, right? Most of us, like, who really influences the purchase decisions that you make?

Real people are twice as likely to be influenced by their family and friends, right? And then by their religious community, their church groups, like, things like that. Marketers are three times as likely to be influenced by fear and fame and twice as likely to be influenced by fortune, right? And so you see that reflected back.

How many scary pharma ads are, you know, worrying us about things that, you know, things that we didn't know existed and we probably will never have. Right. And yet there's this huge opportunity to help become, like I said, part of that community. Right.

And one of the most powerful influences, if you're a parent in your life, is what your kids think. Oh, yeah. Right. But nobody's trying to start that conversation.

Right. You go to the appliance store to buy a refrigerator. Your kids are going to have an opinion about that. Right.

Your kids are going to be like, dad, those jeans are so 10 years ago. Right. Like like the people who influence your choice and you see it reflected back. You drive down a street in the burbs.

You're going to see a lot of the same cars. Right. People wearing the same shoes. So breaking into that bubble, someone else's bubble, how do you do that well?

How do you do local? How do you become part of a community as a brand? And I think if you unlock that, you'll start seeing incredible growth and incredible loyalty. You know, in that study, we also saw around influence, 75% of people are willing to pay more, pay more in this economy for a brand that shares their value.

And my values are about my community, my kids, my church group, right? My sports team, my, right? The things I really care about. And so thinking, getting out of our bubble, we've got to stop talking to ourselves because if you just win the marketer bullseye, you're just not going to find enough growth.

Right. So how can you just get out into the real world and real Americans and start understanding their values? I love it. I love it.

Well, one other area I want to ask you about is this notion of targeted ads or AI generated whatever. Topic of the week, year, month. And how do we, it seems like there's a creepy factor to it for people. How do we think about that?

And how do we think about, you know, we need some of the efficiencies that we gain from those things. But how do we think about doing it the right way? Yeah. I mean, you know, as consumers, right?

Put on your consumer hat. Haven't we all been creeped out by some ad that's followed us around and you're like, what? You know, I always say a friend of mine showed up and hadn't told people she was pregnant and showed up at a dinner party at my house with an organic, non-alcoholic hemp gin, right? And I will never buy that.

I will never drink that. And yet I, for months, was getting ads for this hemp gin, right? It was a complete waste of that brand's money, right? Because they had some data point, I guess, about my phone or her phone or, you know, I don't even know, right, exactly how that happened.

but I know it was related. And it was creepy. And so, you know, I say this to marketers all the time. I'm like, you know, it's great to use data.

I mean, be smart, see what works, measure, optimize. AI is an incredible tool, right? To use it to version, right? We use it at iHeart.

So, you know, a lot of our talent don't have to waste time, you know, repeating, listen to On Air with Ryan Seacrest at KSF at Boston, KSF at LA, etc. There's lots of efficient ways, taking your video and cutting into a lot of different sizes and shapes, taking things cross-platform, right? Turning audio into video or vice versa, adapting it for different platform media contexts, right? Is your spot running in the morning, in the evening, on a hip-hop station?

It should sound like hip-hop. On a pop station, it should sound like pop, right? There's a million amazing uses for this AI tool. But I think if we let it go unleashed, like I tell people all the time, like, don't just look at your ad in isolation, have people show you what it's going to look like when it shows up on my phone or in my feed or, right?

Like look at the context and go, Ooh, I wouldn't say that that way if I were in your feed. Right. Right. That's mine.

You know, I didn't invite you into this little personal space with me and my friends. Right. So maybe you take a different tone there. And so, you know, I think it's thinking about AI as a tool, not a tool.

Right. Right. And then really being responsible as a human. I think marketers have to take responsibility for the messages we put out there.

And as marketing has gotten so fragmented, I mean, how many messages are you putting out there? Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe it is too many if you don have time to actually listen to them all or watch them all or put them all up in one room and decide which ones really deserve to see the light of day Right I think we might all do a little less or a little more responsibly and we get a little better result Yeah no that good advice Very good advice Well, one of the things I like to do is get to know you a little bit better.

And so I've got a series of questions I ask everybody that comes on the show. But curious if there's been an experience of your past that defines or makes up who you are today. Yeah, I think we were talking about it in sort of the career growth and kind of stumbling towards amazing humans. So, you know, in my career and in my life, I've always just followed humans, right?

You meet an amazing human, you stay in touch. I don't know if we're going to do business together, if it's ever going to matter. But for me, it's this human first, work second, outcome second. And, you know, I sort of grew up with that as a huge principle, you know, of getting to know people and then finding your way to amazing, great outcomes.

And that served me really well in life and in work. Yeah. I have younger professionals ask me all the time. It relates to what you said.

How do you build your network? So, well, it starts one person at a time. Exactly. It's like, hey, let's have a drink.

You know, let's go get a coffee. And, you know, and I think sometimes like I think, you know, and I feel for I think the generation trying to network with all the tools they have at their disposal. We didn't have a lot. You know, we were the generation, you know, our parents sent us out with like 25 cents and a key and be home at five.

And where you went and what you did. Now we have so much, I think, this imposter syndrome and people trying to like prove their value versus like just enjoying. Had the luxury of so many amazing people in this industry I've gotten to meet and work with and work around. But all the best, most memorable, I think, insightful moments, those didn't happen at like the table in the formal conversation, right?

They happened in transit in between things. And when you open yourself up and you stop trying to network and you start actually looking people in the eye and having a conversation. And also, you know, I think the best ideas, particularly for marketers, the best ideas are going to come from your barista or your hairstylist or the person behind you in the grocery line. They're not necessarily going to come from the most deceit marketer that you go see on a panel and then you wait in line to go ask one question of, right?

You're probably not going to get genius there. But there's genius out there everywhere if you just talk to humans. So that's always been advice I follow. That's good advice.

Well, if you're starting this all over again, what advice would you give your younger self? Ooh, what advice would I give my younger self? I think probably a little more patience and empathy. Good and bad in my career at Microsoft, and it was amazing.

I mean, everyone was so smart and so passionate about everything. And so it was a very aggressive culture. It was a fast-paced culture and you had to think fast and move fast and defend your ideas. And I think I've learned as I've gotten a little older and I've had a little more experience in the world.

And I think sometimes we have to, you know, it's not always going to be the best defended idea and we don't have to attack everything. And sometimes I think, you know, we just need to show up, whether it's in work and life, with more empathy and a little more time. You know, it's something I'm still wrestling with, which is just how to pause, which is, you know, letting ideas happen, letting other people have some base to figure it out, time, you know, maybe even, you know, I hate the phrase making space.

I think we need to make time. I think we're not making enough time for the work, for the humans. And that's where the most fun happens and the most creativity happens is when we make a little more time and things can bubble up. Lovely.

Well, is there anything like you think people, marketers should be learning more about or maybe something that you're trying to learn more about yourself right now? Sure. You know, I think, I mean, we talked about AI and I think how to, I think AI is just, you know, sort of maybe the tip of the spear of, you know, new and next. But I think how to balance the new stuff with the classics.

You know, the classics have been around for a reason. The big platforms, the mass media, and it's not an either or. But I think I really, you know, and obviously I'm biased. So all of my bias too, as I talk about marketer biases, you know, I think broadcast radio is an insanely undervalued place in a time where we're all under insane budget pressure.

it's a place where you can go talk to new people and find new growth. And it can be, you know, a tenth the cost, a tenth the time. So, you know, that's always one huge piece of advice. If you haven't tested audio all up, but particularly broadcast radio, just go do it.

Try a few markets. I bet you will see, you will learn some really interesting things. And I think you'll start finding some new consumers and some new ways of connecting. I love it.

Are there any trends or subcultures or anything out there in the world that you're just like curious about right now? Oh, interesting. I love all the, you know, the trends and sort of following them. You know, what's old is new.

One of the things I thought was fascinating and social that was popping up was this, you know, sort of young people using the term propaganda and pushing back against what they think is propaganda. And I love it. I mean, I love seeing people taking a strong position, whether it's for or against things. But I love and, you know, they're silly things.

And, you know, it's yoga pants to political topics. But, you know, I love sort of the trends of the day. And I think those are the huge opportunities, right, to take what's why is that happening? Why are why are young people feeling like things are propaganda?

Maybe because we're pushing out too many messages that are irrelevant or too many ideas that aren't resonating with them. So again, it takes me back to maybe a little less, a little more responsibly, with a little more patience. Okay. I love it.

Well, last question for you. What do you think is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today? You know, I think one of the biggest challenges for marketers today is the speed of marketing. I mean, things have sped up.

So many companies live quarter to quarter results over all else. And so I think we've created a lot of defense mechanisms. I like to call them FPIs, like fake performance indicators, right? Because we need something to show the CFO, to show the impact of what we do.

And I think we've got to get back to the ability to measure immediate outcomes, but real ones. Sales, right? Growth, real immediate outcomes. And then long term, the value of consumer engagement, loyalty, brand building, right?

The things that are, if I can get you into our fold, you're going to buy not just two sodas a year, you're going to buy two sodas a month, right? And I can increase that frequency with which you buy because I'm in your life and I'm in your community and I'm in your head. So I think we've got to admit like a lot of these KPIs and these things we're chasing with this huge media seat. Right.

These amazing KPIs. Look at this is up. This is up. This is up.

This is up. Oh, no, that was the worst quarter we've had in ages. Right. And so, you know, I think we've got to, again, get back to the ability to measure near term and long term outcomes a little a little better.

I love it. Well, Gail, thank you for coming on the show today. I appreciate it. Awesome.

It was fun. Hi, it's Alan again. Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast. It's created and hosted by me, Alan Hart, and produced by Sam Robertson.

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I'm Alan Hart, and this is Marketing Beyond. Thank you.