The Power of Ownership: Data Sovereignty and Survey Tools - Elliot Kim - Checkbox

Mike Maynard: Thanks for listening to, uh, marketing B2B tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. I'm Mike Maynard and today I'm joined by Elliot Kim. Elliot is the CEO, uh, of Checkbox. Welcome to the podcast, Elliot.

Elliot Kim: Hi, Mike. Thanks, it's a pleasure to be here.

Mike Maynard: It's great to have you on the podcast. We'd like to start by getting you to give a little bit of background about yourself and your career. So can you tell us about your career and how the opportunity to run Checkbox came about?

Elliot Kim: Yeah, more than happy to share. I began my career in software engineering. That's really where I found my first passion. And, uh, I first made a transition to leadership, um, at a company that was going through hypergrowth called Optimizely. Um, I built and led a people function, uh, while we're going through hypergrowth and a lot of change. And I have to say I've been really fortunate throughout my career. A lot of it can be attributed to crossing paths with amazing people who opened doors and guided me. And one such person is a friend of mine named Matt Althouser who I met at Altomizely. He later co founded a company called called Polychrome that purchased Checkbox. And long story short, they asked me to join to help refound the company and I said, yes, that sounds great.

Mike Maynard: And I've got to ask because I started my career as an engineer as well as an electronics hardware engineer. So how do you find being a CEO? Do you enjoy it more or do you sometimes hanker for those days of engineering?

Elliot Kim: This is a question my wife likes to ask me. Uh, just when I think, oh, I'm not going to hear this question again, uh, she'll wonder again. And I think some of it has to do with the burden of responsibility that she sees. She just wonders, yeah, do you miss not having that at times? And I love solving problems. Uh, that's why I'll always be an engineer at heart. And there are definitely aspects of engineering that I miss. There's like a concreteness and it's very simple. Either your code works or it doesn't. And there's a satisfaction in having that clarity. But right now, what I enjoy most in my role is something you find in any leadership role. I enjoy seeing my team succeed. I enjoy watching individuals grow. And I feel like I've traded satisfaction for my own personal accomplishments for the satisfaction I get from the, uh, team's accomplishments. And I, uh, wouldn't trade that back.

Mike Maynard: Oh, that's really cool. And I guess as a CEO, uh, you've always got problems to solve, so there's still a bit of engineering.

Elliot Kim: Yeah, all the time.

Mike Maynard: I've got to ask this, and I apologize, but Checkbox is, uh, an online survey tool, and we've had a couple of people with similar products on the podcast. Do we really need another online survey tool? What does Checkbox do that's different?

Elliot Kim: Mike, that's a very fair question. Uh, because there are a lot of options out there, and at least for now, no one's really struggling to find software because it doesn't exist. Uh, there are a lot of options out there that have the full feature set that a researcher would be looking for. And so I think of this as largely a solved problem. Uh, with AI changing the equation, we're probably going to see a different chapter coming up, and it's probably coming sooner than later. Uh, but for the time being, of the software that's available, there's not one that's an order of magnitude better than all of the others. And there's probably going to be an increase in the amount of information that we need to gather from people. So surveys are the main tool in the field of human subject research, and it's likely to stay that way for a while. And yeah, if the software is more or less equal and you can find multiple options, I think the real difference then is the company behind the product. And we've heard recently a lot about OpenAI and anthropic, the news. And, um, it's not always about their technical capabilities or their product or their features. Actually, recently it's been a lot about the type of companies, the type of decisions that their leadership is making. So you might wonder, as a user, why do I care? Well, if you interact with sales or support or have to do a renewal, then you'll definitely care. But even if you never speak to anybody at the company, you're affected by the terms and conditions, you're affected by the price and the massive amounts of data that they're collecting. So those decisions, uh, might be fine today, but priorities change within companies. There are people, real people behind the decisions that are being made. And sometimes I have to ask, will it stay okay for the future or is there a chance that things are going to change? And so, yeah, I think taking a look at the company behind the product is, uh, something worth spending some time on.

Mike Maynard: That's fascinating. I think that's a really good point. And I've certainly seen it with you know, SaaS products. We've used some of amazing support and just want you to succeed and others just seem to want to take your money. So I guess there's areas where Checkbox is unique because of your culture and the way you approach things. So can you give us an idea of where you think Checkbox is different and actually excels? Sure.

Elliot Kim: I think part of it starts with uh, what I was thinking about when I joined Checkbox. So I have worked at VC backed companies for uh, the better part of more than a decade and Checkbox was different because we're not backed by a VC and we're also not owned by private equity. So when the financing changes, the timelines change, the pressures change and I think really saw an opportunity to do things differently than what I'd seen at other software companies. Uh, so where Checkbox, this is the beginning point and I have to mention that uh, we're very intentional about being people first and purpose driven and that's important because we believe that we operate for more than just profit and for our growth. I think a lot of companies have to grow at all costs and there's a lot of trade offs that they make that in the end the users are the ones that are losing out on. So uh, we're trying to be different and we're in the middle of preparing for our B Corp application. We'd love to be B Corp certified. Not because you know, having that changes, uh, anything. I think it's just a reflection of who we want to be as a company, the way that we're going to operate and we can have a standard way to communicate that externally and I'm going to borrow some of their wording but we use Checkbox as a business. It's a force for good, so not just for profits but we want our impact to be more good in the world. And the way that affects our users is that we really care about the research that's being done. We aim and work uh, to be very researcher friendly. You'll experience that in the interactions you have with our team, whether it's sales, marketing support, uh, when we're working on our contracts and terms and something that uh, we decided to change since I joined is the cancellation policy. So if you ask why does a software company need to know 90 days before the end of your contract whether you're renewing or not? They really don't, but it's in their benefit. So they say, oh, I'm sorry, it's only you missed the 90 day window, so you're automatically renewed and you have to pay for another year. And a checkbox, you can cancel the last day of your contract. Uh, we don't have these artificial kind of limitations that are good for us and bad for our users.

Mike Maynard: I love that. I think that's a great example. I mean, let's pivot a bit and talk about your users. So you mentioned that you're all about doing research and obviously surveys are basically a research tool. So who's actually using Checkbox and what problems are they solving with the tool?

Elliot Kim: Yeah, Checkbox, uh, is quite general in that it, uh, can be used for a lot of use cases and that's what we see with our customer base. A very large percentage of our user base is in healthcare. Um, and it makes a lot of sense because we, uh, have two versions of our product. Uh, one is the cloud hosted. It's on our servers, it's in the cloud, similar to what other companies offer. And then we're one of the very few companies that offers an on premise version version as well. So with the on premise version, you install it on your own servers, you have absolute control over the data. Like literally nobody at Checkbox can ever even look at your data. And that's something that very, um, few companies offer. So anybody that is data sensitive, anyone that really has either for compliance reasons, regulations, or because their customers demand it, or they just want to respect the survey respondents, they look to us. And, uh, that can be in market research. I, uh, mentioned healthcare, governments, uh, law firms, uh, financial institutions. Yeah, the range is quite broad.

Mike Maynard: That's great. I'm sure we'll go back to this, um, ability to control the data later. But I want to dig a little bit deeper into Checkbox and really what it means to the people listening to the podcast. So most of the listeners are going to be in B2B marketing. They're going to be marketing, you know, some sort of complex, uh, product. So what is it they get from perception awareness studies that is really unique and lets them be customer led? I mean a lot of people talk about customer led, but then really make all the decisions internally. So how do surveys help businesses be better businesses and better serve their customers?

Elliot Kim: That's a great question. I have a feeling that many of your listeners will be able to answer this question way better than I can. But I think this is an important point, so I'll share my take. So the data that you've collected, they're wonderful, but they're for a subset of your population. So remember who's actually included in your data. And this is true for all studies. You have to keep that in mind. Who are you sampling? Uh, there are people that have engaged with your brand. So they've either visited your website, filled out a form, they're using your product, they're already on your radar. But it's not hard to imagine there are way more people out there who haven't been using your product, and you don't have any clue that they're there. So there's a flaw called the street light effect, where if, uh, you happen to drop your keys in the middle of the night, you're going to look under the street lamp because that's where you can see. But what happens if your keys are somewhere in the dark and there's no light there? And this is kind of what happens with the data that you've collected. Um, you have no idea about the people that are in the dark. And so research shows that I think about 70% of the purchasing process for B2B buyers happens before they've ever engaged with the seller. So there's a lot of information that you can glean from there. And this is where surveys can help you. Uh, so awareness surveys, you're trying to figure out who in the general population has heard of you. With perception surveys, uh, maybe somebody came across your company but didn't shortlist you, didn't consider you very further and just discarded you as an option. While the, uh, perception survey would help you understand that, process their decision making there. So by the time someone enters your data, your CRM, they've already made most of their decision. Um, and analytics can't really tell you about the people who didn't.

Mike Maynard: I love that. And I mean, I think we've all seen those surveys from companies that say, you know, everybody loves us. We got our sales team to ask our top 10 customers and they all said, we're great. Um, and it doesn't give you the information about the people who are not buying. But I think companies do this because actually it's really hard to do B2B research. You know, the samples can be small, they can be very hard to reach. So how do people overcome this? And more importantly, how do you get data that's reliable? Because I think sometimes these samples are quite m small and feel very unreliable.

Elliot Kim: Yeah, that's a very common and very real problem that researchers have to work around. And usually budget is the first constraint that gets in the way. It can be very expensive to get quality. And the quantity of data that you need. And sometimes just the amount of obtainable data out there is finite, so there's not an infinite amount of people that you can go and ask. For me, the burden of using the data responsibly lies with the one who's interpreting the data. I think they have to reflect on what is their aim, what are they trying to achieve. So obviously, if you're looking for something to support a bias that you already have, then you can kind of pick and choose the data. And it doesn't matter whether you have complete data or you have just a small sample of the data, you can still find the data that supports you. And so that responsibility is with the decision makers, the ones performing the analysis, to be aware of those biases and try to really look for the answer and realizing that there are limitations in the data that you have. And so there may be some caveats to the conclusions that you draw based on that. You have to be careful and you have to apply your findings appropriately. But, yeah, this is a very real problem, uh, with any research study.

Mike Maynard: And also, and I loved your analogy, the streetlight analogy of some of your potential customers being in the dark. You can't see them. So, I mean, on a practical level, if you're trying to do, um, some research that really is, you know, valid and representative, are there any, you know, really good ways you've seen of reaching people who aren't already fans of the brand so that people are going to rush to answer and, in fact, may not even know you exist?

Elliot Kim: Yeah, I think there's two pieces of advice that I would give. One is that, remember, the people you're trying to reach are humans. So persistence goes a long way. And second, creativity. So no one likes to be sold to, no one likes to be tricked into anything. I think it's helpful to connect with the people and maybe even share why you're trying to collect this information, what it's going to be used for. So connecting with people, being creative in your approach, I think those are generally good things to do. And then, uh, the second thing is that there are. This can be expensive, but specialized panels that have already built up their networks and their panels, they've done the recruitment. You have to be careful which panel specialists you go to, because they're not all equal. Depending on which audience you're trying to reach, some will be better, some will be worse. And so finding the right fit for your study, your audience, that's often the way to get the results that you need.

Mike Maynard: I think that's a great point. I Mean, when you've got those people though, you then have this question of whether, um, the respondents are going to tell the truth. And I think we've all seen it where you do research and people give this really clear explanation of the logical process of how they decide to buy a product. And yet the most effective tagline in B2B is Nobody ever gets fired for buying IBM, which is completely emotional. And um, uh, it's not logical. So I'm interested. How do you get respondents or encourage respondents to give honest answers rather than maybe the politically correct or the ones they feel they should be giving?

Elliot Kim: Yeah, respondents again are humans and they need to feel like their incentives or their interests are aligned with what you're trying to achieve. I think it would be maybe even foolish for someone filling out a survey to answer and give away information that actually harms them in the end. So the purpose of the research is that you're trying to understand something that hopefully you're using to serve the respondents. So I'll use a medical example. So if there's somebody that's using a medical device and it's in their best interest to answer honestly so that the results and the findings are accurate and can be helpful for them and for others in the future. And I think you can see uh, similar analogies in uh, the B2B space as well. And I think safety is a big concern for survey respondents. That might be one of the reasons why they're not honest. And so credibility is absolutely paramount for these studies. They need to know that their data is going to be used, uh, ethically, that it's going to be handled with care and with security, uh, in mind that it's not going to be leaked and finally that it's not going to be distorted. Right. So credibility of the researcher gives credibility to the research study and tooling is one of the ingredients that's important. So if the people involved say all the right things, but then you look at the URL and you're like, oh, this company has a reputation, then it undermines all the hard work that you've done. So selecting the right tooling, having the right messaging and uh, building up the right reputation I think are important.

Mike Maynard: I mean that's interesting. And you talk about data security kind of brings us back to this point that you highlighted earlier on. So I'd like to jump and talk about that. I mean, Checkbox has chosen to offer an on premise solution, uh, which uh, I'm not aware of anybody else who does and I'm not going to Ask you to name any competitors. But how does that impact the way that customers look at Checkbox? And I'm thinking particularly of enterprise businesses who often are very concerned about data sovereignty.

Elliot Kim: Yeah, that's a very good question. So Checkbox has been around for over two decades now and I think a lot of this, the reason for why we have on premise version is linked to our history and we have a lot of customers who have been with us. And it's pretty cool for me, uh, since joining the company I looked through the customer list and I see people that are like, oh, they're renewing and they've been with us for 15 years. This one's been here for, with us for over 20 years. And so there's a trust already there with those customers. I think that extends also with your users as well. So if you're a brand and you're doing internal studies, then with an on premise solution you can host it on your server. So you pick your domain, your users see immediately that uh, oh, this is on my company's website and it's not being, you know, redirected to a third party site. I think that is ah, a signal, not the only one, but one of the signals that helps. And I think that's actually the important part that you're signaling to your users that you're willing to put in the effort, that you're not always taking the convenient route and the easy route, but you'll put in the extra effort, you'll make the investment and when you care about the details, it speaks to how you handle the things that they don't see.

Mike Maynard: I love that. And m, uh, I think that's fascinating that, that data sovereignty issue, it doesn't just benefit your customers who own and control the data, but obviously it benefits the survey respondents as well and probably gets better data in the end. So I think that's a uh, really great point about data sovereignty. I mean do you think people sometimes underestimate that, the importance of that?

Elliot Kim: Yeah, I think data sovereignty, well, the whole issue of data has been evolving in the past decade or so. There's so many data terms. There's data. There was first data privacy and data security and now we hear more about data sovereignty with what's going on internationally. So I think it's evolving and people are starting to understand more. And a lot of things are still hypothetical dangers uh, regarding data and data governance, uh, but they're also very real threats to the data and hopefully we don't have to find out what the worst case Scenarios are. But it's good to be aware what risks are out there so you can act appropriately. I hear more and more companies thinking about this these days. With what's been happening with geopolitics and different countries, uh, kind of asserting different rights on their data, it's likely to change over time. So it's kind of worth putting uh, in the effort now, understanding it and setting yourself up so that you're not in a pinch later where suddenly you have to make a change and suddenly you have to react and kind of risk, uh, the hard work that you've already done.

Mike Maynard: Yeah, I mean that makes a lot of sense. Let's just switch tech again and let's get a bit tactical. If somebody's listening to this and they're looking to run their first proper perception study, um, in B2B, do you have any tips or steps that people should follow to make sure they get it right?

Elliot Kim: So this is, I think, something that I would recommend highly to work with someone that's experienced, keeping in mind that all of us have biases, whether we're aware of them or not. They're going to color the data, they're going to kind of impact the way that you design your study, they're going to impact the way that your respondents are going to respond. And then you're also going to have a different lens that you look through the data. So my, my key advice is to start with working, uh, with someone who has a bit of experience with this and that's a good starting point. And then it's very, very helpful to have clear expectations of what you're trying to achieve. So when you have to make sure that you're studying something that you can get realistic results. Um, sometimes there are studies that were doomed from the start. Whether you can't collect enough information or it's going to be, it's not going to be quality data. Um, and then the second is what you're going to do with that, uh, information. You have to be honest with yourself that are you looking for an honest result or is it to help you with a decision maker that you're trying to sway, or is it to get funding? These are things that can subtly, I think, undermine the credibility of your own research and hurt the outcomes. So yeah, defer to someone who, uh, has done this before and can guide the process and maybe they're a third party so they're a objective about it. They don't have anything to risk or anything at stake. They just want good results. And then being honest with yourself about what you're trying to achieve with the study.

Mike Maynard: That makes sense. And I love the advice of don't start a project that's doomed to failure. I think that's great. Are there other mistakes people can make along the way? Anything that can trip you up that they should be aware of?

Elliot Kim: Yeah, I think with any human response survey, it's very important to have the context of who you're surveying. And if you have a third party, they might not fully understand your context. If they're a, uh, good researcher, they're going to try to collect as much as possible from you. And you, as the one, like, commissioning the study, it's your responsibility to provide accurate context so they can build the questions and they can build the study just around the audience that you have. So context is, I think, the number one thing to keep in mind to refine and then communicate very clearly with, uh, whoever you're working with.

Mike Maynard: That makes a lot of sense. I mean, Elliot, it's been fascinating talking to you about research. I know your time's limited. So before we go, there's like three questions we like to ask people. So kind of a quick fire round. The first one is, is there a B2B marketing campaign you've seen recently that you thought was particularly great or you particularly remember?

Elliot Kim: I don't think this is actually a campaign. It doesn't have a defined start point and an end point. But I think this is, uh, more about the company's brand that they've built. So the company is 37signals, and they're a company that I was fascinated with over 15 years ago, uh, because they had famously decided that they didn't want to grow past a certain point. And they were wildly successful, very, very profitable, but they decided not to grow their headcount. And they also were actively turning away customers who got too big for them. So they very intentionally said, we are building tools for small businesses and if a customer becomes too big and too successful, we're not going to change our product roadmap, we're not going to change the ethos of the company. Instead, we're going to recommend that they go to one of our competitors. And I, I think that's a trade off that many companies are not willing to make. There's growth for growth's sake, and there's no end to it. It's like, okay, great, you had a great quarter, you had a great year. Let's do bigger and better and faster next year. And that's just like an endless hamster wheel. That many companies find themselves in. Not everything that they do or their leadership does is, you know, right in everyone's eyes. But this particular aspect of the way that they're building their company, the audience that they want to serve, uh, that's something that I've appreciated.

Mike Maynard: I love that. I seem to remember they actually wrote a book, didn't they, about how they're running the company? It was kind of like total commitment to this model of, um, not growing for growth's sake. And I thought that was great. They had a value and they really followed it through. And I think that's why people believed in the campaign, don't you?

Elliot Kim: Yeah. I think what ended up happening is that people, first of all, they have a great product and you have to start with that. You can't cover an inferior product with branding and expect good results. So they started with a good product, they invested heavily in it, and they built a brand around that product that people felt like they were identifying with that company. And it was a choice to work with 37 signals. It said something about the user, not just I'm picking the best tool or the cheapest tool out there.

Mike Maynard: Yeah, I totally agree. Second question is about marketing advice. What's the best marketing advice that's been given by someone to you?

Elliot Kim: I haven't gotten a lot of marketing advice in my career because of my background in engineering. Uh, but this one, it's been very, very helpful to me. So in the book Conscious Capitalism, the authors, uh, John and Raj, they describe marketing as a way for a purpose driven business to connect with people who genuinely value that purpose. And for me, it was a real mental unlock because I had some negative associations in my mind about marketing. There's overt persuasion. Sometimes that's involved, and sometimes there's a bending of the truth. These things that you kind of know are happening and kind of not okay with. But with this reframing and this different goal in mind, uh, I saw a very positive pursuit. And it's about serving people with honesty and connecting not with every person in the world. Not just being loud and noisy and getting attention, but finding the right people and the right audience. Uh, that was, that was kind of game changing for me.

Mike Maynard: That's fantastic. And m. It feels like it's really a quote about great marketing rather than marketing generally. I think you're right. There's some poor examples of marketing. And then finally, our last question. We have people listening to the podcast who are just starting on their career. So what would be your advice to a young person Just about to begin a career in marketing.

Elliot Kim: Yeah. This is a question I have been asking, uh, some marketers recently, and one of them was my cousin who is a market researcher. I asked him how did he choose this for his career? And he shared that his father had actually framed it beautifully for him. So market research and marketing are in general, at their core about understanding people. It's about understanding their needs, their motivations, their behavior. And it's a wonderful field if you have a desire to serve people by understanding them and providing for those needs. And if that's you, if this is something that's interesting for you, I highly recommend it. I think it can be very rewarding and it can be highly beneficial for the world.

Mike Maynard: That's a great bit of positive advice to end on. Elliot, thank you. It's been really good talking to you. I feel like we've covered so much around market research. I think, you know, one of the things that's really interesting is obviously a lot of people listening to this and going, hey, there's a survey tool where I actually own and control my data or have the option to do that. If people want to learn more about that and learn more about Checkbox, what's the best place for them to go to?

Elliot Kim: Yeah, our website is checkbox.com, so checkbox, and my email address is elliotuckbox.com Feel free to reach out to me or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you and, uh, speak with you.

Mike Maynard: Thanks, Elliot. It's been a great conversation. Thanks so much for being a guest on marketing B2B technology.

Elliot Kim: It's been my absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Mike Maynard: Thanks so much for listening to marketing B2B tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on itunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at, uh, napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.