Leadership Lessons from a CEO Coach | Ft. Surabhi Shenoy

Speaker A: Namaste and greetings. Uh, welcome to your favorite management show, Manage Better. This is episode number 11 3. A show that started with the ambition of doing 10 shows is now at 113. Thanks to your affection and uh, support, I've been able to bring guests who have and, and this is something I get told that, you know, this show brings guests who have a variety of it. So we've been able to cover range from of course, you know, what is mostly at work, you know, in terms of quality, which is my profession, then customer success and then leadership and more technology, more recently future work and all those kind of topics. The one feedback I often get is that I don't bring any guests to talk about leadership and the acquisition. The hidden acquisition is that an you are anti leadership and you are against leadership. Nothing can be further from the truth because I am part of a leadership team so I can't be against myself. But I accept that ah, most of my content on LinkedIn and on YouTube and through these shows does not talk explicitly about leadership. There are two, three reasons. One, I don't want anything I say to be construed as my official opinion in my workplace because I am a full time employer as well. So I have to be careful around that and everybody should be uh, clear about what they say and what, how they say. The other reason is of course I personally believe that good old school management is equal to leadership. I come from the Henry Mensburg school which says that good management is leadership. There is another school of thought which says that most leadership talks are about selling courses and books because it sexier to be a leader in 24 hours or you are the leader of your 2 square feet than to say that you are manager of your 2 square feet or this is a management uh, course. Nobody buys a management course. People do buy a leadership course. So with all those acquisitions and uh, counter acquisitions, I have started thinking recently that maybe let me bring some real people who have real solid good leadership experience or are working with leaders who can give us the real stories and not the fluff and the peripherals. Right? So in that spirit I have my guest today and I will quickly introduce uh, her and then we will get on to the so Rohit Bhardwaj is asking acquisition more acquisition. So uh, Rohit, I meant acquisition. My English is not as uh, good as yours, so I'll bring Survey Shinoi on the screen in a bit. But let me read out a little bit on how I know her. I know her as the most happening creator on LinkedIn these days. Um, that's how she caught my attention. I was you know, completely loved with the kind of capsule post that she was churning out daily, twice a day. Each post was like years of wisdom into one page. Once I, I latch on to somebody, I try and read more of what they're writing and invariably they end up being on this uh, show. So that's the story more formally. Surbhi is a serial entrepreneur and has two, has had two successful exits. After the most recent exit in 2022, she's now helping founders and other CEOs to scale up their business, increase valuation and love the process. One of the complaints founders have is that I'm, I'm totally burnt out. I, I don't love this. Um, she of course started this journey with her co founder, um, who founded Tejora Technologies in 2000, um, 2005. For the last few years she's been running this. The exit brings 20 years of hands on experience of building businesses and now um, coaching mainly around revenue and people. And using her CU Mastery framework, she's been able to help a lot of leadership aspirants and current CEOs. So that's a uh, brief. Like I always say, this is a LinkedIn based show so please head to LinkedIn, check out submission and if you like her work, uh, do follow if you happen to know her. And sometimes people tell me that I connected people who were colleagues or, or worked together earlier and so on. So do as you please but do check what she does on LinkedIn. Vijay. Namaste and welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Namaste. So nice. Happy to be here. Thanks. Finally.

Speaker A: Finally because uh, I think I did threaten you that you will be on this show some months back, two, three months back and eventually we are on this live event. So we because work pressure and everything and I try and juggle a full time job and this sometimes Saturdays are not Saturdays, Saturdays are Mondays. You've seen those days.

Speaker B: Finally we have an opportunity to sit down and talk. Otherwise we just follow on LinkedIn what's on top of our minds on that day. So uh, that's why we are talking.

Speaker A: Totally. And that also is a recurring theme in these episodes. I keep teasing everybody who joins that. You guys are the audience, we are having a chat and um, thank you for being in the show to the audience. We are going to have a fun conversation around a serious topic. What is life without some fun? The format of the show is that I have some prepared questions but usually my audience doesn't let me ask Those they will come up with their own questions and um, some have already started. If you think you have questions in advance, you don't have to be happy about it because there will be unprepared questions. So we'll get into that with your permission. Your fandom is next level. Already people are pouring in.

Speaker B: Uh, that's Christina.

Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of them actually California and man, this is the first for me. You are making me famous. Thank you. Uh, all those people who are uh, joining from Surbhi Speed as well do check out what I do. I am not too bad either. So you might find some reason to follow me with that plugin. We'll get into the questions. You are now the CEO coach but obviously this is not how how it started. Nobody goes to college or nobody starts work saying that, oh, I'll be CEO coach. And in five years. Tell us a bit more about how you landed here, why CEO coach and how this whole thing started in summary, so that people have a context of why you do what you do.

Speaker B: Yeah, my journey is typical engineer to entrepreneur. That's why when you mentioned this show is mainly in your work and spaces around mid managers and showing them what next how can they build. I really wanted to jump in because uh, it was a hard journey from an um, engineer who prefers to sit in a cubicle, write her own piece of code and test cases and delivers and go home to. Being an entrepreneur was a long learning curve and journey started on a typical engineer but started my first company along with my husband in 2003. Actually five I joined him. Company was formed in three then you know, once you start learning the ropes of entrepreneurship it's a bug you want to do more. So 2007 started another company which was into health and fitness. Uh, nothing to do with technology, very retail service oriented company. And I think that company was my formative and transformational um journey from engineer to entrepreneur because it was so service, it was so retail, it was so cash focused. It was so not known to me that I had to become an entrepreneur than as a business owner than just being a coder in a company. And uh, that's when I learned how to really own a business, what decision making is all about and uh, how to really create value for all stakeholders. That company got acquired, we sold. I came back full time to my technology, digital technologies and started building that company with lot more intentionality and strategy. I can say this in hindsight because at that time I was just doing what felt right. But the definition of right has changed because of my four years of building the other business, each step in the, each jump in the ladder is doing something to us towards our uh, career path. We may not understand it today. Um, everything worked well. We always stayed self funded. Lucky enough and with strategies and systems in place, create a business which basically can self fuel itself its own growth. Because growth needs money and if you do not figure out how to create that money then you have to raise a lot of funds, go and borrow or leave your freedom to somebody else, which I never wanted to. So always stayed self funded. We start a business for freedom of it, right? Then what's the point of putting a nook in our head and uh, neck and giving it to somebody was my thought. So a little bit of smartness, tact, strategies and luck. I think uh, everything worked out. 2022 is when I exited the company. Got acquired my technology company after almost 20 years and now then next I wanted to work. Not have such a large operation like I had before, but work more for impact. Started went through coach training program from icf, learned lot of things. I did my digital writing. That was another tashering of starting to write. That's why I did a course on digital writing. That's why you see LinkedIn and newsletter both. That's my other side. According to Write with all that now I feel rather than building my one business, I'm actually building almost um, 10, 12 businesses by supporting these founders who uh, are in the trenches trying to get to the balcony and figure out how to drive their own companies and make them large, big and solid that's long and short of entrepreneur, sorry engineer to entrepreneur.

Speaker A: Fantastic. I think one of the reasons I asked this question is for this because one to explain to people who are very enamored or see the whole CEO and coach and entrepreneur. My endeavor is to explain that look, these are successful people. They have done something in life know and, and they are like us. All of us can be the people on the show and much more. Uh, and there is no need for seeing them as somebody from Mars or Jupiter. We are all same same. And uh, that's one of the reasons why I asked this question. This question gives some context to the listener because everybody's journey is different and that could give a context to why you do something or how you do something. Let's get a little deeper. We have questions coming in. Thank you guys. Keep the questions coming in but please understand that I will take the questions after 15, 20 minutes. From what I see and I've been in the space senior Management space for some time. I see a lot of CEOs or I, I'm either seeing them from close or at least close enough that it's a very lonely space. I can say what I want to say and, or my colleagues or my manager or my team members to anybody. You know, I will find people if I have to gossip. But uh, a CEO can't really do that most of the time. That's a very crude way of explaining why it is lonely. It is also lonely because there is only one position and many things you can't discuss you can discuss with a board member or other thing. But not every company will have a elaborate board as well. So the question of course is do you agree that it is a lonely space or it is only people like me who uh, are lower down who can see that as a lonely space. What have you seen that makes it really tough? That lonely space being really tough?

Speaker B: I will say I 100% agree that it is lonely. The more you make it lonely it will become even further lonelier. Uh, so you have a choice. It need not be as lonely, but there is a loneliness. The factor kicks in because there are so many decisions to be made. You cannot discuss many of them. There is too much information and data that you are holding with yourself and you cannot share that without having a fear of being misunderstood or judged. The personal agendas kick in and therefore you cannot share that. But at the same time you have to make decisions. And many times the uh, decisions which you will take will not have enough data with you from all angles. It kind of makes it extremely hard to take that responsibility on your sole shoulders and uh, carry through. And if it succeeds, it's everybody's win. If it fails, it is your sole responsibility. So it is lonely in that aspect as well. And to look at it, the intent, the, the it becomes even intense because now you understand that your decisions are not only your decisions, but your decisions affect so many more people. Their families and your maids to your customers. All of them being said that if you surround yourself with just couple of people, you could have. That's why I always recommend have a group of advisors, mentors, coaches and uh, some confidant who actually can correct you, straighten you, uh, make you be your sounding board and they do not have any agenda, uh, but your well being and growth. There are no judgments. They know how to create a safe space for you and that's why you can eliminate or reduce that sense of loneliness. But it is still going to be there. Some parts you have to get up in the middle of the night and think about the decisions you're going to make today. Uh, some could be really heavy and,

Speaker A: and rightly said that makes it lonely as well. And that in a way also as you were speaking Subhi, I realized that while you were explaining why the role is lonely, it also kind of explained why a coach is needed. M because a CEO, if he or she is lonely, have too many people to go to for every discussion. But the discussion is required. The danger is that because you don't have people who you can lean uh, on or trust because of organizational reasons, you might end up taking the wrong decision. So this is where a coach sometimes comes uh, in and I completely appreciate that um, aspect. That begs a question as a CEO coach, then what do you see is the true role for a CEO? The first question is what is the true role of a CEO? A lot of people, at least I me, quite a few wannabe entrepreneurs or startup enthusiasts have reached out to me for guidance and I keep saying that I have zero clue. I've never been in a startup. I just look like I will know everything, but I don't. So but they insist and then we have some conversation and I figure out that most of the time they have a very, you know, gold plated view of who the CEO is and they are only looking at the, the visible in the fund and power part of it. All of us know whether CEO, startup, uh, corporate, hospital, whatever, where we have worked is that CEO is not that. So my question to you is that what is that, uh, what according to you is the true role of a CEO? And then we'll get into what gaps we use.

Speaker B: It's a good question and a lot of clarifications are required I think, especially when it comes to power and what's the real role and what is understood by most people outside. There are many roles and responsibilities under the role of CEO. But let's break it down into three most important crucial aspects at the top. First, set the vision. Where are we going? Where am I taking all these people with me? Um, if I don't know that we are all in trouble equally. So set the vision. Second is everything is connected with people. So build a great team, hire the right people and ensure uh, they know what they're supposed to do. And the third is actually acquire resources to fulfill that vision. I'm talking about money, I'm talking about talent, I'm talking about opportunities, I'm talking about presence in the market, positioning the way it should have been done. All these become your responsibilities. So, uh, have a vision, get the right people and be resourceful and provide those resources on a continuous basis throughout your journey. Your sole job as a CEO is to not let your company die. That means don't run after revenue and spend m money without thinking the implications. Have a great Runway so that you always fuel your company and its growth. These are the three most important things. Under that, you have many other tasks, roles, and responsibilities that will come under that. From the power point of view, it's not that because in my personal experience, you end up pleading employees, you end up pleading customers, you end up telling them, buy pleats, come on Saturday and do this for me so that my customer is happy I'm cleaning customer to give us some time more. So is all fun, but it is so much service and so much bending backward for this one person because everything relies on, uh, what you promised to clients, customers and even employees and how you're, how well are you delivering that. So you have power in terms of deciding where we are going and how we are going to go there. You have power in defining the values that this company will be built on. Um, you have power for the greater good. What things will you do today that would look bad, for example, firing a person, uh, if it comes to that, you're doing it for greater good, maybe because it will protect the company from other things. These are hard decisions, and we as humans are not really good at doing that without being affected. There is a lot of emotional toll that comes on that it connects back to the being lonely and having a support system. But in the role of CEO, these are the very primary objectives, goals that you need to keep in mind. What happens is most of us, including me in my, like I mentioned, right, from engineer to entrepreneurs, uh, you will know so many very strong tech people starting their own company because I have a brilliant idea. Product people, great salespeople will say, oh, I understand market. I have so many contacts. Let me launch a company and I will be able to sell it. We all start with one expertise, which is our own core expertise. But three years old, needs so many more. And, uh, there's a huge gap of skill set. And, um, to really see that, accept that, that I need to learn all these things systematically. And investing time and effort into that will make it better for you. The identification of these gaps will depend on how your journey has started. Where are you today? Where, where do you want to take

Speaker A: the company one step at a time in your practice? What is the most prominent gap that you See, see, for example, the people I speak to, I see the vision and execution gap as significant. Everybody wants to be the next Elon Musk. A. They don't have the genius that he has and don't have the hard work that he puts in. So obviously it's a no starter. Uh, you know, it's not going anywhere. So only couple of weeks ago, I gave my peace of mind and I'm, um, I can be very harsh. I look all smiling all the time, but I can be extremely brutal in feedback. And I gave feedback that, look, boss, you know, smell the coffee. Putting up Elon Musk's poster on your wall doesn't mean anything because you neither have the genius that he has nor have the hard work that he has. And he has both of these and much more. So poster, Sir Ban Karu, uh, I advised him to get back to a, uh, corporate job he was doing earlier. Similarly, what do you see? Because you speak to much more. I speak to very, very small, I would say sample side.

Speaker B: Yeah. So first and foremost, I think understanding of finance commercials, that side is mostly, I mean, especially with the tech founders. They come from a technology background. They have never looked at numbers. They do not understand debit and credit, profit and loss. And I was one of them that I thought, if I deliver great products to my customers, my business will grow. It doesn't. And you end up putting so much effort, which you could have saved if you would have just understood little bit of your, um, own finances and the whole financial model. So that is first thing that I always notice. Second, if they are coming from an engineering background, they do not know how to sell, how to market, how to position, how to do branding. And they think I have a great product, but it doesn't sell. It is a wrong concept to think that you build and they will come. You build and you market and then they come and you have to have that peace in between. So third thing that I can talk about is the communication, emotional intelligence that is required. And uh, so either you're driving by the vision so hard and harsh that you can actually not have any of these emotional intelligence and things, or you have both and you have a great team with you who will run with you. So choice is yours. I don't know how Elon Musk is in his emotional intelligence, but he has something that people stay and deliver what is supposed to be delivered, get pushed in the process and maybe enjoy that. Like, I would have never achieved this if I wasn't pushed this way. Right. And therefore I like it, and therefore I stay. Leadership as a corporate, on the corporate level is so mellowed down that, like you said, you know, giving harsh feedback is difficult. Mostly leaders today live, uh, under fear of not having these difficult conversations. But I also think people actually are strong to take the feedback if the intent is good. Like, if the intent is really so. All these many layers of communication, emotional intelligence, sales, marketing, finance skills are actually missing in the founders who start something like first one to three years, no clues. And that's where I support them. And it's not like they're. They're. They're extremely smart, driven, ambitious people. So my job becomes only to highlight that. Have you considered this? They start learning that, and it's just a matter of time that they'll pick up that skill. But identification of that skill based on their journey and where, uh, they want to go is the most important part. That

Speaker A: I think makes a lot of sense. What I said in a heart, where, uh, you brought in the theory and the empathetic view. So a lesson for me as well. We'll take one quick question. Ramesh, a regular on the show, is asking, what is the one specific behavior a CEO must avoid and perhaps do some inner work to ensure it doesn't manifest? Of course, by asking one specific behavior, he doesn't mean really one, but it could be 1, 2, 3. But what are things that, in terms of behavior a CEO must avoid and perhaps do some inner work to ensure it doesn't manifest?

Speaker B: Thank you, Ramesh, for asking that question. Blame. Once you become a CEO, the biggest difference from a manager, uh, or any, anybody else, one thing that you cannot ever do is blame. Blame employees, blame customers, blame market. You will never succeed. You will never be able to get out of it. It's, uh, a useless emotion. You have to understand an inner work, take a hundred percent responsibility. It's easy to fire somebody. Your HR can deliver that. But you need to look at things. Why am I, why do this person exist in my own experience? And, uh, what is it teaching me? What is this experience I'm supposed to learn? Because if you don't do it, trust me, it keeps repeating and the person will go, but something similar will keep happening. And the moment you leave the blame and take responsibility, it is extremely powerful. Because now you are in control, you are in charge. It kind of frees you. It conserves so much energy, and suddenly the power comes into you. And I think this is one trait that employees really cherish. I'm, um, seeing employees as in your people, even customers. For that matters because if you are aligned and you're going to lead that, taking full responsibility, somehow they want to help you and support you in as many possible ways. My life, my journey has been so many ups, downs, crisis. But there were people who just saw that my resolve to getting things done and getting out of this or grabbing the opportunity in both ways they have aligned and they have. I feel they have carried me through rather than me leading them. I, I see people getting stuck wasting time blaming the world. No need.

Speaker A: That is true in general, but more so for a CEO. If you get into that blame zone, there is never one person to blame. There is always a circumstance, a set of people situation, you yourself, lot of things are there involved in that particular situation. Blaming one person is not going to help. It takes us away from any execution that we might be doing out of that situation. Blame is the easiest part of that equation. Sometimes in my meetings I have a running joke. Whom do we blame for this? Quickly blame and then move on because then you can get to actual work. So um, because everybody is thinking about blaming somebody, okay, let's blame one person and then to work, how do we make sure doesn't happen again? Now it's a uh, running joke in the company. Everybody in any meeting says okay, today whom are we blaming? It helps because then you get it out of the system and move on. We took One question from LinkedIn, we'll take one from YouTube. Tarun Kohli, can you cite some pain points you observe leaders normally go through in their journey and few suggestions for them to come out of these. When he says leaders, he's categorizing the CEO part because that's the uh, focus of our talk today. Anything for Tarun. Mhm.

Speaker B: Right now I have a slightly different theory about burnout. Burnout is actually not overwork. We will never get tired of lot of work. We'll always figure out the source of energy required. Burnout comes because we have been frustrated for too long and that builds up and uh, not getting that success that we thought will come to us in quick like the Elon Musk poster you mentioned. Therefore I am still continuing to walk and I don't see a light at the end of the tunnels that is creating so much pain and angst in uh, founders, CEOs, even normal people like anybody and everybody. I would say two things. One is on the emotional side, there has to be a point where you should know what is enough. And for this effort, for where I am in my journey, what is enough and respect that and uh, be eager for more because that's what the natural phenomena is, that is growth. But at the same time on the emotional side, understand where you are and be happy with it and keep walking ahead. Most of the founders leaders I see are actually super managers. They are uh, heroes carrying the world on their shoulder, not ready to put it down for 10 minutes and think that others will be able to take care of that. And that creates overwork. Now uh, when I exited, my exit was possible because the business was free of me. Business was run by so many people other than me. I was mostly chilling towards the end to build systems, have these strategies, train people. I wrote about it in my newsletter how from founder's brain to company operating system, company OS and where I'm actually showing how you can build an authentically you company contributed by others. To summarize two points. One is emotionally that don't be so impatient, don't be so eager. It is going to take time, so be ready for it. And second is build system strategies which basically will help you, uh, out. Um, give a. I want to say outsource, but outsource from me to my team to do that. I hope I answered the question.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. I think knowing Tarun, I understood the slant of the question and you caught it. Well, Ramesh is saying thank you. Thank you, Ramesh. Now that the questions are coming in, let me pick one more. Oh, uh, Varsha Raturi thapli, the fellow LinkedIn topwise and theater accelerator program colleague. She's asking do they need do as in do CEOs need coaching or do CEOs take coaching to relieve only work pressure? So. And um, she's in the coaching space and she helps military veterans get back to work in the corporate sector.

Speaker B: Wow, thank you. That's a really important question. In my experience, emotions very. At the fundamental level, if you're frustrated, just observe the frustration and think, uh, why am I frustrated? Most of the time I can tell you that it is a gap in the skill set and I consider mindset development. Developing your mindset is also developing a skill set. It's a skill. So if you are frustrated because people are not listening to you and your leadership is not accepted, this it's a skill set gap. So my short answer to Varsha here is yes, they do need coaching. If you're a product manager, developer, technical architect, or even a military veteran, you are good at your work. But when you're leading the company, there are many different departments you should give direction to and you don't know Them if you have a great salesperson and you need to tell him what kind of company and product they are selling, you should know how to do sales at least to guide that person. Uh, if you're reading financial reports based on which you are going to make next year's budget or help the auditors and your finance team to make budget, you should be able to tie your product backlog and the finances that are available and then say this is what I think. What do you guys think? They do need coaching specific to skills. And uh, also conversation can lead to work pressures. But yes, there's a skill set gap.

Speaker A: I think I just located one more question. We are getting into audience questions only. I still have questions for you Surni, but I think some of these questions are better articulated by them rather than me. Live show or no show is of any use without the audience. I am picking one question from Ashok Prabhu. If you hire a CEO, what is the one quality that you would look? I think Kasoob got excited because of uh, your uh, answer to Ramesh, thinking that you could give one answer. Maybe you will give him one answer. I have a sneaking feeling this question will not have one answer. If you have a, have to hire a CEO, what is the one quality that you would look for in that person and what one question would you ask in conversation to determine if that person possesses that quality?

Speaker B: Uh, interesting. I'm right now helping somebody, uh, a very senior gentleman, uh, to hire a CEO to take the company forward. It's a big step decision for them because you know, they are built it with so much passion and like a family. And now the external person is coming. Thank you Ashok for the question. I'll try my best. I think I always talk about in CEO and the team the CEO will build. Second, second uh, in line to have what I call as a, ah, T shaped skill set. Now what I mean is T shaped skill set is that the vertical line depicts one skill which is deep. They are experts, masters in that particular skill. And the uh, horizontal line of T indicates all the facets that the business will need. So let's say blue me being a um, extremely product technical person, that's my skill, that's my vertical line. But I have to develop experience and understand how sales and marketing, positioning, finance strategy systems, bit of HR and actually leading people will be enough to hire the right people to interview these people so that they can do the work that you want them to do. This also helps when you do not have enough skill set and there's an expert that you have hired, let's say you're hr. When both of you have a conversation, your questions at least are much wiser than knowledge. So I think T shaped skill set always helps. And the quality that I would look is really the capability, ability to take people under the wings and not show it off and lead them. That needs true authentic self and understanding who you are and the role they are playing in the company. Therefore respect it. If the people angle and the skill angle is blend together, you have a proper guy rest. Everything can be trained and taught. I hope I answered it was a longer version.

Speaker A: This question is a complicated one. So I uh, that's why I said that this might not get the answer that Ramesh uh, got. But thank you for your question Ashok. I hope useful and um, do let us know if you want more on this or reach out to Sabi. And that is of course for everybody who's on the show live and will watch it uh later. Do follow subbi on uh, LinkedIn and check my profile as well. I just wanted to move quickly because there might be quite a few people in this live episode or may watch it later. A lot of people actually get to the show later because weekend being weekend, sometimes people don't catch it live but they catch it later or they catch the audio version which I post after a week or so. Those are people who like to listen to something on their walk and, or anywhere else. So many of these people might be in the middle management or slightly senior middle management and might be now in the running for the CEO position or uh, something closer to CEO. Let us say that category, CXO category. What can some of us, people like me, people like others in the show who are in the middle management can do to become a CEO in some years I don't want to give a time frame because that will be specific. But in some years what can we do today to be a candidate tomorrow?

Speaker B: Uh, I think to be a great uh, entrepreneur first, be a um, great employee. And what I mean by that is today people treat their jobs like my father and my father in law both worked in LNT and every time they went through Kawaii in Mumbai they would feel joy, appreciation, respect and belonging towards the company. Respecting what you have today is extremely important from the specific skills and um, requirements of the job. Perspective, communication, skill. No non negotiable. You need to share your vision, you need to sell to the customers, you need to get all stakeholders in one line. It's always communication that will be important. Emotional Intelligence, uh, and I mean communication driven by emotional intelligence that you will develop so very important. Second, I think resourcefulness, because there will always be lack of something. You have five parameters in a strategy and one is completely missing. You need to know how to get that. Yeah. And not wait for the world to give it to you because nobody's going to come to do that. Right. You're on your own. Third thing I think extremely disciplined. Being a disciplined person helps. I've seen people who are not disciplined also being successful. But when you are disciplined, there's so much predictability in people around you. They know she comes at this time. This is how we are supposed to behave and function in this organization. The more disciplined you are. It helps because it sets a precedent for everybody. The one final thing I want to tell bid managers who want to have not. I'm not specifically talking about getting hired as a CEO. I'm talking about being an entrepreneur. I'm talking about having your own business, founding a company. In that case, you cannot quit today. If the boss says something, I am hurt. I'm going to go, Boss keeps calling on Saturday. I can't do this. My work life balance is missed. I'm going to quit. Uh, my pay hike was not great. Uh, your profits are not going to be great. You can't quit. Uh, people are going to say nasty things. You cannot quit. There's no work life balance for days, months at a time. So you have to have that. That there is no quitting. If somebody listening to this show right now and if they're thinking of quitting, I would say challenge yourself to stay and see what can you do in that circum those circumstances. If you can do that, you have a chance to get that being a founder because you can't quit. So Covid can come, customers can go. You cannot quit. You have to figure out a way to stay here and get better for everybody. It's a very emotional mental strength personality that is required first and then the skills will come.

Speaker A: That reminds me, some weeks ago I was coaching somebody who wanted to quit exactly for the same reason I didn't get the salary hike. And my manager is very. And these days the easiest word in the dictionary is toxic. You have a bad day, your manager yells at you and he or she is toxic. I want to tell everybody that's not how it works. Just because you have a bad day, you doesn't mean you are in depression. Depression is a clinical state. Similarly, toxicity is also a, uh, sustained behavior and environment, not a one off. So don't use these words lightly. I had to shut the lady down who was asking this question, young person, an emotional reaction that I want to quit. And she didn't have a job. I said, you don't have a job. You want to quit. There is very little chance you will get hired in the next six months. And after six months, nobody wants to hire you because you might be behind in your skill set. So it gets even more tougher. And by the time one year, then you might not want to work again and just doesn't improve. I was looking for a particular question. I found. Um, this is a question I normally ask, but, um, Srinivas Susallah has asked a question. What are your top five books that you recommend? I get this question a lot because of obvious reasons that you see behind me. But today, today you answered this question. So over to you, five books.

Speaker B: I think my top tap always has been a, uh, book good to great. I really love that book because I understood leadership from that 1. Chapter Level 5 Leadership, Resilience and extreme humility and sheer resolve. So that's one line that I will always remember that that's a test of any leadership. I think that book explains the flywheel. Beautifully constructed. That's one book. Second, I'm, um, less a business book reader and more of a, um, self development, as in personal development. I truly believe one key. One key to growth is reflection, self reflection. I journal every day from that angle. I wrote about this book, how to stop worrying and start living, because building a business is full of worries. How you get out of it is very important. Third, it's so difficult, so many books. Another spiritual book. But I can recommend you can heal your life, and it actually tells you what your emotion means. Who are you in this world and life? And therefore I can't. That book calmed me down. Uh, that book calmed me down to understand, look at things. And, uh, by Louise Hay, how to stop. Uh, yeah. So that's my third book, fourth book, which I read, I think 2012 13, called the Master Key System by Charles Hunn. And, uh, that book is written in 1912, so more than 100 years ago. It's complex to read, but it talks about, uh, visualization. And, um, I think it helped me to hold a vision, which is study. Because it teaches you chapter by chapter, it builds you on. On what you have practiced, and it's very tactical. Reading is complex because of their language, but it taught me who I am again, and the subconscious conscious relationship. When we talked about Ramesh's question Taking a hundred percent responsibility. It kind of connects with uh, that also right now I'm reading a book which is Storyteller's Secret. Somebody who is very strong on TED talks about how stories, uh, can inspire change behavior, mind and people. Everything is about storytelling. I'm sharing everything here as uh, stories. If as leaders we bring those anecdotes from our lives or others, it conveys the message very powerfully. So I think, I would say five right now. There will be many. I think after the show I will think, oh, I should have went to this.

Speaker A: But maybe that is another post.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure thing.

Speaker A: And we can, we can then thank Shreema for his question. So, yeah, fantastic. I absolutely love the Jim Collins, you know, Good to Great because that was probably the. I somehow feel most books after that are a photocopy, you know, um, that you know, it's in any some way or the other. They are building on the brilliant legacy he shared, for example in our field. Tom Peters, you know, wrote that he In Search of Excellence, of course with Robert Waterman and all. Uh, but that book remains the book for how do you approach excellence in any space. It's been 40 years, maybe more than that. And that book still remains and I still have a copy. Anytime you read like one or two pages you still think what is this? Obviously the examples are no longer relevant because those companies have changed and are uh, now not the same.

Speaker B: You mentioned this just. Yes. In Search of Excellence my father was in LNP switch care quality Control. I have done most of my software part into software testing. So I'm like, I get paid to find bugs, you know, and the whole of my early, early times In Search of Excellence and Total Quality Management pqm, these were the two things that were. I was completely layered with. And when people started, when the business started, it was so difficult to maintain that perfection. And the definition of perfection kept shifting with a personal quality is different than perfection. So to have that um, differentiation and taking a call of go no go at the right time was very. That was very hard for me personally to let go that need of perfection. And I was, I told my father actually these books that you've got In Search of Excelling and all it's of troubling me right now.

Speaker A: You are making me feel old survey. But I'm not that old. Just to clarify to everybody, these are foundational books and uh, I think the good to great remains in my um, top five management books ever. And so does In Search of Excellence. We are coming to the end of the conversation which we didn't expect will end so soon. But the last couple of minutes, anything from um, if people want to reach out to you after, ah, either you know, listening to you live or later on the recorded version. How do they reach out to you and what can they expect in your coaching?

Speaker B: Um, I write every day on LinkedIn. I have a newsletter which is very exclusive. I get a chance to go in depth, bring out my own experience and I mostly keep it very framework system tactful so that they can apply it in their own life and career. I write it with extreme passion and research and all of that. So I would really like people to subscribe to newsletter. The link is in my LinkedIn itself. And so that's second thing coaching. I do very one on one coaching because I think they need a lot of one to one support. Even if it's the same business, two founders are very different people. So I do that one on one. And specifically uh, implementation is the key, right? There is no lack of knowledge and information today. It's actually overwhelming. I have hundred strategies that I can apply but which one does really apply to me? My personality and my business. Where it is today is what's still not known. And that confusion is created creating more emotional turmoil than anything else. So I really do only one on one. And that also is in my featured section of my LinkedIn. If somebody wants to schedule a call to discover how I can help, that's where you can find me.

Speaker A: Fantastic survey. So lovely conversation. I um, can't thank you enough because I was personally looking forward to this conversation. We've been reading each other's posts and uh, often commenting as well. I'm uh, lazy on commenting but you are very diligent so you comment quite often. I just like and enjoy and then can't find myself commenting much. But I think we've been both wanting to have this conversation and thankfully it was with an audience and recorded. People can have a look later on as well. With that I will let you go. Normally I announce um, the next show in each show but this time there are some scheduling things so I don't have the announcement yet. The second half of December, which starts tomorrow is, is going to have a lot of action because I might not stick to my Saturday timeline. I might do two, three shows a week because there are a lot of people and people have a little free time in this period. So I'll do that. And those who reach out to me for any coaching conversations as well, like uh, you can reach out to Surabhi if you are in the CEO or entrepreneur zone, but if you're having a career issue or career guidance. I have, uh, for the last two weeks of, um, December, all my top mate and spec bookings will be at half price price. So take advantage of that. Thank you very much. I'll let you go. And thank you very much to my audience and see you next time. Bye Bye.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely.