217: How to interview a company before you take the job (The Martech job hunt survival guide, part 3)

Phil: you went through this crazy experience last year Darrell: I got laid off a few months after I found this wonderful opportunity It really was kind of like this comeback story higher title, more responsibility. more pay because of that, I missed a lot of red flags during the interview process I knew there were some things that were off, And long story short, wasn't the right culture fit? And there was just so many things wrong that I al I was almost having like anxiety attacks, And it really made me realize, that there are some places, regardless of how much you're getting paid, it's not worth it.

Phil: So today's episode is all about asking questions that can, prevent that situation from happening. In This Episode - Phil: What's up everyone? Today we conclude our three part series on the MarTech Job Hunt Survival Guide. Part three is how to Interview a Company Before You Say Yes.

In this conversation, we'll cover how to test a hiring manager's self-awareness and find out if they can handle. Being wrong. Why? When did the last time you take a vacation is the most revealing culture question.

How to find out if a company sticks to its priorities or changes them every quarter, and how to find out what a marketing ops role actually requires before you accept it. All that and a bunch more stuff after. A quick word from two of our awesome partners. Sponsor: MoEngage Sponsor: Knak - ​ Phil: Alright, Darrell, we are starting part three of our three part series.

Uh, it's been a blast getting to do this with you and, and helping folks kind of figure out this weird job market that we're on right now. So part one was kind of helping folks, like things you should be doing before you lose your job, before you get laid off. and and like strategies and tactics, uh, ways to like find jobs on like that hidden job market. And part two was, um.

A bunch of different stuff that didn't fit in part one and, and part three. Uh, but the whole point of doing this whole three part thing was to talk about part three. Like really, you went through this crazy experience last year where you want to, like, you wanted to do an episode where like, let's make sure no one ever has to go through what I went through. Um, I, I know it was crazy for you.

Like I, it's happened to me plenty of times too in my career. Maybe not as crazy as you were like. You know, you hit the job market, uh, you're really excited about an opportunity. You're doing interviews.

You take an offer, you start the new gig, and then a couple of weeks in, or worse, like couple days in, you realize like. Crap. Like, what have I done? Like, how did I not spot this ahead of time?

So today's episode is all about asking questions that can, um, help prevent that situation from happening. And I wanted to start by just like saying, maybe you agree here, but like there's a whole route of using this as a tactic to help you stand out from the crowd. A lot of people don't ask questions, like you do an interview with someone, and then at the end it's like, do you have any questions for us? And people are just like, ah, you know, I, I think I'm good.

Like. Saw the website, saw the posting. I don't have any questions, but it's your opportunity to like do things like show the research that you did on the company. Like, Hey, uh, I saw the founder said this in an interview after you raised your series B.

Like, what did you think about that? Like, why are you guys doing this? Or like, um, are you guys using the product internally? Like there's so many ways of the questions you can ask to like stand out.

Um, but today we're gonna talk about. A different reason for, for those questions. And it's about landing the right job and avoiding situations where you're unhappy. And so, um, yeah, I don't know how much you wanna share about the experience that you did, I don't want us to have to like, pull this episode from, from you two because of like, um, you know, this, this person coming back at you.

Like we don't have to name the company, name the person, but, um, 1. What to Figure Out Before You Ask a Single Interview Question - Phil: you thought you landed somewhere that you were gonna like. But it wasn't right. Like maybe set, set the stage a little bit for us.

Darrell: Yeah, and the background is, and I really feel for anyone that's hap this happened to, I got laid off and you know, my family really depends on me for health insurance. you know, And for those listeners in the US you know that it's a really big deal. Um, you know, the healthcare is expensive. So, you know, a few months after I got laid off, I found this wonderful opportunity that really kind of, um, and I think this might resonate for some people.

It really was kind of like this comeback story of better, higher title, more responsibility. More, um, more pay right than my last job. And Those things, plus health insurance, those things are so attractive and compelling and tempting. Phil: Mm-hmm.

Darrell: And to be honest, because of that, I missed a lot of red flags during the interview process that as I, as I look back historically or you know, as I reflect on it, I'm just like, man, I knew there were some things that were off, you know? And long story short, I ended up going into a very toxic environment. It wasn't the right fit for me, wasn't the right culture fit? And there was just so many things wrong that I al I was almost having like anxiety attacks, you know, in the first two months that I worked there.

And it really made me realize, like viscerally realize that there are some places, regardless of how much you're getting paid, it's not worth it. It's not worth it. I wasn't present with my family. I was having almost anxiety attacks.

I wasn't sleeping. That's not worth it. Phil: it's not worth it. Darrell: you know, I, I, I exited the company very quickly and I don't regret it.

Not at all. So, so that's my story. And, but, but honestly, I don't fault people for doing that. And I don't fault myself for doing that.

Like, like especially if you're laid off and in this market. Phil: Mm-hmm. Darrell: You know, I'm sure I'm not the only one that's ignoring red flags, honestly. Phil: Yeah, trust your gut and sometimes like you just have to ride with those red flags depending on how weird the market is.

So this substitute is really for folks that are in a privileged position where you know they have options. And I know at the time, like you had multiple interviews, you got to lead later stages with multiple companies. Hopefully that's you. Um, hopefully you do have more than one option.

The best situation is use. still have a job, you're not super happy in it, and you're hunting for something else. So like you get to make that decision too 'cause it is a two-way street. today I wanted to chat about like, um, you know, we're gonna hit on different buckets of questions to ask companies when you're interviewing with them.

And ultimately, like you you don't have to ask all of these questions, we're gonna cover a bunch of different stuff. So like the first thing you'd want to do is prioritize. What you care about the most. And that means different things for different people.

So I feel like your first step here is thinking about what makes you happy in a certain role. Like what was behind that anxiety for you? Like I feel like it's a couple of very specific things. Uh, we actually did a three part, uh, series, um, earlier in the year called 50 Operators.

Share the Systems that Keep them Happy. This is episodes 2 0 5 to 2 0 7, and a lot of folks talk about what. They care about the most in a role. Like what makes them happy?

Like working on interesting problems, having ownership, having stability, driving towards a goal. A lot of people is like way more human, like the flexibility and strict hours to protect family time. Um, you know, not craziness, like a healthy culture, having awesome, friendly coworkers, so. I feel like that's, that's important to kinda like coin the conversation here.

Like we're gonna cover a bunch of questions to ask, but ultimately the answers reveal things that you might not care about as much as you know, the culture or maybe it's the hiring manager you care about the most. Or maybe it's the role and like how stable the role is and how they set priorities. So, um, that's the first thing to think, uh, to think about. And I wanted to ask you, Darryl, like maybe we can, uh.

Like as folks are kind of thinking about like what, what makes them happy in their roles? Like what would be at the top for you? Like what's the single most important thing that dictates, like if you're gonna be happy in a job, if you're gonna have anxiety attacks or not, like what would you put your finger on? Darrell: I would try to get a sense of if you can have a good working relationship with your boss.

Phil: Hmm. Darrell: That is a really big one because there are some things that you can kind of just be, you know, like let's say you have a jerk coworker, but you don't have to work with that person every day, you know? But I think that with your boss, you are accountable for certain tasks to them. Phil: Mm-hmm.

Darrell: They're marking your performance and you know, especially for people that are. You know, like me type a very ambitious, um, for me and many others, we have to do, we have to feel like we're doing a good job. That's, that's a thing. we, we, we, I, I very much, if I get any signal that I'm not doing a good job, I, will, I will work like nights and weekends to fix that.

It just, just doesn't work. I don't know if it's my Asian upbringing. I don't know what it is, but, but. Yeah.

It is just, it's just not cool if, if I'm not doing a good job, so, so I think that trying to understand how your boss works, what their expectations are, what their work style is, those are things that you want to kind of try to get a sense of. Phil: Yeah, I like the self-reflection there. It's, it's true, like the number one reason why people leave a job is because of their hiring manager. Um, and 2.

How to Test a Hiring Manager's Self-Awareness in a Single Question - Phil: maybe we can start with the hiring manager questions here. Um, 'cause I, I do think it's super important. It is the main reason why I left a lot of the past jobs that I've been at. Um, the thing that I've reminded myself though is that like, you know, there's, there's a lot of turnover in companies and just if, if, like.

Everything else is a green flag, like the rest of the team, the company, and you're just like, there's a couple of things about the hiring manager you weren't in love with. Like hiring manager might not be in that job. Like for more than like three or four months. Like when I worked at Automatic, uh, at wordpress.

com, like, I had something like four or five different managers in like seven months. And so like dedicating everything to just a hiring manager in the interview process, like might be limiting a little bit, but. It's a fair call out 'cause you might be stuck working with that person for a long time. Um, so let's, let's jump to the hiring manager stuff here.

Like, so we've got a bunch of different topics here. Like, we'll chat about, um, you know, questions to get more information about the company. More information about the role, but I think iron manager, the leadership is, is maybe a good one to start off with there. So, um, jump in with any that you have, Darrell, I know there's, there's one that you wanted to chat about here.

Um, but I'll start with the first one. So I, again, you don't have to ask all these questions, um, but we're gonna give you a bunch of different ideas for, for things to ask and, and, and what to look for in the answers. I love asking questions about figuring out, like how self-aware. The leadership team is not just the hiring manager.

Um, but a lot of my unhappiness in roles comes from changing priorities and chaos and like, there's nothing I hate more than spending two weeks working on this thing. And then like your hiring manager or the leadership telling you like, yeah, we're gonna drop that thing now and we're gonna do something else, can you. like Pivot. Just like it, just like lack of respect for like the craft and the work that you were doing.

So this is something I care about deeply. Um, I love asking questions that reveal that, like leadership, self-awareness. So I like to ask things like, what's something leadership got wrong in the last year? Uh, what feedback do you get most often as a hiring manager?

Um, what decisions would you revisit if you could? Uh, what's changed about how you lead over time or what's something you're still figuring out about your leadership style? So the whole point here is just looking for like defensive language and, and how they talk. And just like the first question is really my favorite one.

Like, what's something leadership got wrong in the last year? Like if they can think of something. Like, they're either hiding, hiding something, or they don't have good self-awareness because everyone makes mistakes. Leadership, hiring managers too.

Um, but yeah, I, I love asking that. 'cause usually it, it starts off with like, well, you know, we, we really thought this one persona or that ICP was gonna be like our golden ticket. We went all in on it and it was a big flop and here's what we realized about it. And to prevent that from happening again.

Here's what we're doing. So, um, yeah, what do you think of that? What do you think of that one? Darrell: I, I think it's good.

I think that that question and any other version of that question is is I think you're really looking for authenticity and like you said, self-awareness. Um, you're like looking for authenticity and just kind of like. empathy, You know, and that's something that I think that you can listen for. Um, you know, and my version of that is, you know, we were talking about this earlier, is kind of like, Hey, what issues have you had with a former leader?

What issues have you had with a former direct report? And if you hear anything fluffy, honestly that's a red flag, you know, because I think that. People that have been doing this for a while know that leadership plus people management, plus trying to get a team, you know, on the right track. It's incredibly hard, you know, and it's really hard because of people issues specifically.

Some people can't do the job. Some people are defensive, some people are, you know, they just have an attitude problem and how you, how you deal with that. Really tells a lot about your, you know, how you are as a leader and if the hiring manager can't articulate those kind of things. I think it's a really big red flag.

Phil: Yeah. So almost like describe to me the worst boss you've ever had, and why were they the worst boss? And, and hopefully, in that answer comes out like. This is why I'm not like that person.

And, and these are the things I've done to make sure that I'm not that person. And hopefully other people on my team agree with that. But yeah, it's, it's uh, because I feel like you, you probably did that, like after you landed somewhere you hated and then you left and you were doing other things, like, here's why I left. Like, here's what I didn't like about that, that manager or that, that company, that culture.

Um, I like that one. That's a, that's a good one. Describing your worst boss ever and why. Darrell: Well, yeah, and I, you know, I don't, you know, I, she knows this, you know, my, my current and I was really upfront.

And I said, I had come from a toxic workplace and you know, this is what happened to me. And you know, she was super authentic and said she cited two times where she had a very difficult Phil: Hmm. Darrell: tyrannical boss and described why the bosses were terrible. And to me, when I heard those things, I was just like, oh.

It just kind of gives you a clue that like, oh, you're like a normal person with Phil: Yeah, she Darrell: and you get it and we're gonna work together fine. And like, fine. Doesn't mean we're never gonna have disagreements, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're gonna be like best friends. But, you know, I think that that base level of like respect and good working relationship, you gotta have that.

Otherwise you're gonna end up, you know, wanting to quit in like two, two months. So it's not Phil: Yeah. 3. How to Find Out If a Hiring Manager Can Handle Being Wrong - Phil: So let's chat about disagreements 'cause that's, that's kind of the next one that I had on my list.

Like this other thing that drives me crazy. In a company, what I've worked at in-house is that you spend all this time hiring experts to do this thing, and then leadership or the hiring manager disagrees when the expert says, this is how we should do this thing, and. It's like, dude, like we just went through this whole thing. Why did you hire me?

Like, you know that I have 10 years of experience in doing this thing. Why are you then telling me that? No, you don't think, and, and like, I back up everything. So, you know, hiring people only to tell them what to do.

I hate that in, in an in-house role. And so. I like asking questions like, can you describe a time when someone on your team pushed back on your direction, or can you tell me when someone on the team didn't disagree, uh, like didn't agree with something that you said, like how did you handle that? What was the outcome of that?

Like, and, like, I'm just looking for them to describe how they deal with people that aren't like negative and always like wanna disagree with you, but like, Is it okay to disagree when the co in the company, like healthy disagreement is one thing and it's easy to say that like, oh yeah, I welcome disagreements, but like ask them questions like, how, how do you give feedback when things aren't going well? Like what, what does a hard week look like? I dunno, there, there's something there to try to like squeeze out the the genuine like response there and trying to figure out that like, yes, I'm okay if you tell me if you think something is dumb, if you can back it up.

and Like, I will respect your opinion there and like, I don't know, I just like, I can't stand being at a job where you're, you have to be a yes person. Like, I'm not a yes person. You've hired me to be an expert at do this thing, to do this thing, and this is why I think we should do it. I'm gonna say my piece every single time.

It's not always gonna be a hill I'm gonna die on, but like, I'm not just gonna be a yes person. And I don't know, that's, that's a tricky Darrell: A hundred percent. you're exactly right. And it could even be something as like, tell me about a time when your team, you know, had a diff, had a different suggestion, wanted to take it in a different direction, what happened?

You know, and I will tell you, I, I can, you know, think of numerous times when my team was like, you know, I had an idea, my team didn't like it. And they were like, we should do this instead. We're gonna do this instead. And I'm like, alright.

You know what I mean? Like I think, I think that you have to have, you know, it's a kind of an ego thing. It's kind of a, it's. evaluate the evidence and other people's opinions objectively without bringing your own things, bringing your own baggage to the decision, and really like asking yourself, Hmm, why wouldn't that approach work?

You know, why am I so married to my. Idea. Phil: Yeah. Darrell: You know, and it really comes down to just clear thinking.

So I, I, I do think that if you ask that question to a good leader, a good manager, they would at least have one story where they're like, yeah, you're right. I was wrong in this, in this case, Phil: Yeah, Darrell: you know? Phil: um, sometimes as part of the i of your process, I don't know how it went for you recently, but I've been at, like, some companies, that are a bit smaller. So like part of the end of the process is you meet with like someone.

At the C level or like you meet with one of the founders. Um, most of my experience is, is in startup land, but even like some of the bigger companies, like the founder still sat in on the final screening call with like every single candidate. Uh, I, I think they probably changed that, um, at this point now. But if you do have the opportunity to chat with like someone really high up like a founder or someone on the C-suite, um.

Uh, curious your thoughts on this question, but I, I've only done this once, um, but I asked, who is your best employee and why Is she or he the best? And I'm looking for two things, like if you. Get a CEO or this founder who is just like kind of panicking, they're not really sure, like who to pick. And they pick this one person who works like 17 hours a day and you know, like, uh, does a bunch of stuff and always says yes to taking on more work.

Like that's just like a big red flag to me. But if they can name like a. Bunch of different people and their answer isn't just like one employee and it's like a three or four different people and there's different answers. Why?

And it's all about how they talk, how they like collaborate. This one project that they did, like it just says a lot about the company. If someone that high up is in tune with like who the people are in their company and they can come up with other reasons why they like them, other than they're just like a workhorse and they put in a ton of hours. Darrell: Yep.

Yeah. And it's a red, so it's a red flag. If an executive or leader wants everyone to be like them, and maybe they work, they do that, they work 80 hours a week or something, they will sacrifice family life to, you know, for the company and. Who's the best person at your company?

Who, who's, who's your, you know, best worker and they pick someone exactly like them. That is such a red flag, and I think real leaders, really good ones will pick someone and say something to the effect of. This person's way better than me at this, or this person's way better than me at that. Like, I'm really technical.

This person has the soft skills. I'm a good product person. If This person knows sales and marketing. And that's why I think he's a really real they're a really great fit.

You know, and one of the, one of the pieces of advice that I got, you know, as I, as I was doing more and more senior leadership, is for executives, their approach should be who not how. Phil: Hmm. Darrell: Okay, who not how means I'm gonna pick the best people to get the job done, not tell them how to do it, which is kind of what you said earlier. if you can, if you can get a sense that the leader that you're talking to has that same approach, like I wanna pick the best people, even if they're smarter than me, even if they know more than me, even if they disagree with me, that's a really good, good sign.

And the opposite, I think is a red flag. Sponsor: GrowthLoop - ​ Sponsor: Mammoth Growth - ​ Phil: let's couple more on the hiring manager side. We'll, we'll, we'll skip to those. Maybe we'll leave them, uh, towards the end if we have time.

But I, 4. Why "When Did You Last Take a Vacation?" Is the Most Revealing Culture Question - Phil: I wanted to dig in on like this thing that we chatted about, about like, working hours and, and, and only like valuing people who are like buts in seats and, and put in a certain number of hours. Um.

I, I can't stand that. Like I, especially now, like with a family and kids, like, I value flexibility and, um, willingness to come in and out of, and then decide my own working hours. Like it's, it's it's way more important today. So maybe you're listening, you don't have kids yet, and like that matters to you a little bit less and you're more ambitious right now at that stage of your career.

Like maybe that's not something you care about as much. Um. but. I love asking this question.

I've asked this pretty much every time I've interviewed at a company and it's so telling, but I love asking the hiring manager, but also other people on the team, and especially if you get to like chat with someone to hire up. Also, when was the last time you took a vacation? I love asking that because. You immediately get, if someone immediately is just like, you know, like I'm a big fan of vacation and I tell my team to take vacation, but I haven't taken a vacation in two years.

Like. Red flag. Red flag to me. That person can say as much as they want, that like they empower everyone to take vacation, like they're cool with it.

If you don't lead by example and you're not someone that takes vacation, like no one on your team feels safe. To take a vacation and it's just like it comes top down. So I love asking that. And also kinda related to that is how many people on the team have kids?

Like if you have kids and, and a family and you can't start work until a certain time and you have to like stop work at a certain time. Like people get that. If they have kids and daycare and school. But if the founding team and like your, your leadership team or your boss, they, if they don't have kids and no one in the company has kids and it's like a startup and like, they're not gonna understand you wanting that flexibility.

So that's something like I care deeply about asking. Darrell: So true, so true. Yeah. I if, I think the lead by example thing really resonates.

You know, if you're not taking vacation, your team's gonna feel bad about asking for it. Um, and I think it just ultimately shows a, a, just a lack of self-awareness, you know? Um, I, I. You have to be aware as a, as a manager and a leader of the effect that you have on your team.

You know, and I was working with this one per one boss one time, who was like, why are they afraid to, to, you know, share what mistakes there are why are they share? Why are they afraid to share when somebody's late? It's not like they're gonna get in trouble. No one gets in trouble around here.

And I'm like, that's so. You know, that is so not self-aware because you know, if you get in trouble at work, you always have this fear that your job's on the line and that's like a very natural feeling. So I think that that all, all the way kind of ties back to authenticity. One more thing I will say with, I appreciate bosses and I think that you need to take this really.

You need to like truly be real with yourself when they tell you what the working hours are. And I had like two opportunities. One of them, the company, a lot of the people were in India and they, and they, they were very upfront and they said, look, probably almost every day or every other day, you're gonna have to take meetings at like 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM your time. Phil: Ooh, no thanks.

Thank you for your time. See you later. Darrell: yeah, and I mean, you know, of course. I didn't have a job at the time, so the first couple interviews I was like, oh, yeah, I could do it.

And It's not that Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Darrell: But then after I reflected on I'm just like, that's not the life I want. So I withdrew.

Phil: Did you have your son at that point? Darrell: Yeah. Phil: Yeah, Darrell: This time, um, my boss was really transparent and she, she emphasized it multiple times. She said, you're gonna have to take, you know, early calls at least a couple times a week.

And I, and we Phil: the team is EST. Your PST? Yeah. Darrell: uk.

Yeah. And so we agreed that 7:00 AM was probably gonna be the time. And you know, and I, I, I verified, I'm just like, you don't mean 5:00 AM Right. and she's like, no, no, but 7:00 AM is gonna be very common.

And we both agreed that we would do it. And that's what I do. And I'm not, I, you know, I don't love taking those meetings, but I also know it's something that I willingly Phil: Mm-hmm. Darrell: And you need to be real with yourself to, to do that.

Phil: 7:00 AM isn't that bad when you're working from home, and you have a kid and you probably didn't sleep that well anyways. Um, I'm actually a huge fan of like the, the seven to three. Like if I'm working in-house and I'm putting in eight hours, like if I'm starting at seven, either like I'm breaking and like taking a shower in the middle of the day, or I get to work out in the middle of the day, go for a walk or like I stop working. Really early instead of doing like nine to five or eight to four.

But yeah, that, that whole question about like, you know, flexibility in, in your day is so important. Um, 5. How to Find Out If a Company Sticks to Its Priorities or Changes Them Every Quarter - Phil: so this other question that I like to ask about that kinda reveals the decision stability within a company are things like, can you walk me through the last time priorities changed mid-quarter or like mid month, and what drove that change or how do decisions get reversed here and, and how is that communicated?

What happens when leadership disagrees with like what the team wants to do? How do you handle conflicting priorities? Like these are all questions that kinda reveal decision stability. Like this is something I love asking.

The hiring manager specifically gives you insight into like ownership systems, how much. They control in the company how much ownership you're gonna have in the role. I like listening for things like, is there like a framework that the company uses, like, uh, OKRs, or is there like a roadmap that the team has that they adhere to? Or is it kinda like, oh, if.

You know, someone shouts really, really loud. We're gonna end up doing that. Um, I mean, big fan of like clear ownership, explicit trade-offs and you know, I love when bosses answer that question and they're just like, I have no problem saying no to new projects and defending my team. Like, that's what I'm looking for at that answer is like, cover fire to me, a great.

Manager is someone that like has cover fire for their team. If I'm telling my team, like, next month we're working on these two major high priority projects, I want them to feel. Safe, like mentally safe that I'm not gonna come to them tomorrow and say like, yeah, so you know, that project I had, that was a priority. Like it's not anymore because the founder said we have to pull the plug on it.

Like sometimes you can't control it. I understand it, but I love like the cover fire angle to this. And that to me reveals a lot. Like if the hiring manager is like, well, you know, we have a roadmap, but we don't really decide what marketing ops does.

Like we're a service center. We just take new tickets and we, we go with the flow. You know, like. No, like what is the roadmap?

Are you sticking to it? How willing are you to say no to noise and, and buffer your team? So yeah, that's, that's a big one for me. Darrell: Oh yeah.

And I think that a lot of that ties into clear goals and clear priorities, like you mentioned OKRs because. if There aren't really clear goals, then the projects can change week by week and like, oh, let's try this, or let's do this, you know? Um, and that's different than trying different tactics to try to in, so like let, let's say you're trying to increase leads and pipeline. You can try different tactics to do that, but if all of a sudden the entire strategy changes and now you're trying to build a community and it has like nothing to do with leads and pipeline, it's like, whoa.

What's going on there? Um, so I think that, look, a lot of companies are going through incredible change right now because of ai. So a lot of companies are shifting from whatever they were doing before to AI driven something. You know, AI driven analytics, AI driven customer service, AI driven sales and marketing.

Like everyone's doing that. So there's gonna be a good amount of change. You know, In general, I think that one interesting question would be to say how do you roll out a major change with your team? You know?

And for me, when, when I've had to, you know, do a, a change of direction, I call a team meeting and I explain the context about what's happening and why, what the change is and what the implications are, and I give them time to process it. You know, because a lot of times big changes will sweep weeks or maybe even months of work under the rug or just throw away. So I think a good leader, even though things are changing now, will have a lot of empathy for that happening to their team.

And they'll even maybe document it and write it down. and send it out. I think poor leaders will just change on a whim. And some of the worst ones I've set, I've seen actually only tell a few people about the change.

And then expect everybody else to already know it. So that, that, I think the concept of having at least some sort of communication plan around change management, I think is a bit, is, is, is a, a, a green flag and not a red flag. Phil: I love it. 6.

How to Find Out What a Marketing Ops Role Actually Requires Before You Accept It - Phil: All right, let's chat about questions. That highlight the, or talk, talk about the role specifically. So, you know, most of the listeners are adjacent to marketing ops or, or rev ops. And, uh, I feel like so far the episode is applicable to anyone that's, you know, in the job process right now.

Um, but for folks that are in a role for something technical like, uh, revs marketing ops, analytics, uh, lifecycle marketing, whatever, um. There's a couple things that I like to ask the hiring manager or even like other folks on the team as part of the interview process. Um, I like to figure out like. Describing the reality of the role versus, you know, what the job title says or what the job description says.

Uh, we had an awesome episode with Ronald Gaines from Sunbelt Rentals, and we talked a lot about how marketing ops people get hired as like saviors. It's like, oh, we need you so bad. You're so important. Um, you're gonna be loved and celebrated, and you start the role and you're treated with like a list of tasks, uh, like.

Tickets to, to, to complete. You don't have ownership. You don't really have responsibility anywhere, but like, you're so important. Um, that, that to me is, is really, uh, key to, to, to kind of start off with like cutting through the hype of the job description.

Getting into like what the heck is the role actually going to be? Like when you say I own marketing analytics, is that I own the tickets to fix the dashboards, or does that mean I have. The strategy on like deciding where and how do we run analytics. And so it's completely different way to look at it.

So some of the questions I like asking are like, um, what does success look like in the next like 30, 60, 90 days? I feel like that's. That's a really like obvious one. Um, but, uh, one of my former bosses really likes asking like, if I take this role and we're doing a review in a year, what would make you say Phil exceeded expectations?

Like what outcomes and impact have I driven that make you wanna say that? I think that's a really good one. Um, other ideas like what will still be broken after six months that you don't expect me to fix in the first six months is a really cool one. Like.

No one has their data together. Like you're interviewing companies, like everyone has a broken tech stack. Um, you know, being up front about what is expected of me to, to, to fix in, in the first couple of days, but most importantly, like, what authority does this role actually have to give me to make changes? Am I just someone who's gonna execute on tickets or are you giving me like a mandate and the ability to actually change how certain things are done?

Darrell: Yeah, I love that. I think that, you know, if you're a person where you're not gonna be like, you know, they're not gonna give you admin. User rights to all the platforms and you know, the ability to connect all of your stuff. I think that if, if that sits so poorly with you that you're gonna be miserable at your job, I think that that's something to, to ask.

I will say that a lot of this depends on like company size and that there are trade-offs, you know, with each which, with each type. So if you want a marketing ops role that's more defined, more. Clear boundaries and really clear expectations, like a roadmap. You're usually looking at a company that's larger and more mature.

You know, at smaller companies, like the one I'm at now, marketing ops is actually not really well defined, you know? Um, but that's like for, for me, that was a trade off that I was willing to take. You know, I was willing to take that for a remote role, which are really competitive right now. And, you know, I was, I was, I prioritized.

The people relationship more than the clarity of the role. Um, but for some people that might be different. You know, they might come in and, you know, you they, the boss throws everything in except the kitchen sink, including the kitchen sink at them. And it's like, this is not fair.

If that's the kind of person you are, then, then don't take a role like that. You probably want a more, more formal one. So I think that there are some really like clear. If that's important to you, I would ask, how do you define marketing ops?

Phil: Hmm. Darrell: what, where does a good one is? Where does marketing ops end and where does sales ops or rev ops begin? Phil: Yeah.

Darrell: Um, and, you know, one thing, and it was funny, this wasn't even a question I just, I just shared upfront with my boss, things that I don't do, Phil: Hmm. Darrell: you know, and like, just see how they take it. You know what I mean? Like unprompted, I said, listen, I don't write copy and I don't design images and I don't do branding.

Um, but most of the other stuff I love to do. So if, if that jives with you, then I think we're a good fit. If, if that's not what's gonna happen here then, and, and so she, I, I think she really appreciated that. She was like, okay, that's what you don't do now.

I know. You know, and I, think that more, hopefully more people can be a little bit more upfront like that and say what they're not, um, good at. But, but I will say, if you're not like that, I don't blame you Especi in this, in this market. I don't blame you for saying anything and everything to get the role.

because it's really tough right now. Phil: Yeah, as long as you can back it up a little bit and, and you can learn quickly on the fly. Like you don't wanna flat out lie about. Yeah.

Yeah. I've, uh, um, you know, mo engage experience and you've never actually logged into the tool there. Certain limits for sure. Um, but yeah, when it comes to the role itself, I also really like asking, um, like the JD has a bunch of things on there, right?

Like usually, especially a marketing ops role, like you'll find a bunch of stuff in, in that job description. We need someone with analytics, we need someone with like lead routing. We need someone with like, you know, you name it, attribution, blah, blah, blah. The list is endless.

I like asking the hiring manager, but also other people on the team and corroborating that answer. What keeps you up at night about. The, the, the jobs to be done right now that you have And then a lot of people will talk about like the data or the fact that, you know, the, the, the data team is super busy and we don't have access to anything in the warehouse and we have to like build this, like shadow IT stuff. Like, there's just like really cool things that come out oftentimes are, are super normal, right?

Like there's no perfect company out there, there's no perfect data stack. We know that. Um, but I like comparing the answers of the team to the hiring manager and it gives you insights on like conflicting priorities right off the bat. If everyone on the team is just like, oh.

Our lead routing is broken. Sales is always complaining about this and about that. We've tried to fix it. We can't really get our hands on like something that's gonna help us there.

But then the hiring manager is just like. Ai, AI this and AI that. And we need to be AI powered and we need propensity models in our emails. We can't be like doing manual campaigns anymore.

And it's just like you're getting like the real boots on the ground answer from the people that are doing the work versus the person managing the team. And so like right off the bat, there's like a bit of misalignment there, but if both sides are saying like. Data. Data is a mess.

Like we don't have everything in the warehouse yet. Idea resolution is is endless and we need someone to like be our person that translates stuff to the data team. We needed you last year. Like that at least tells me there's like some synergy on like what is keeping people at night.

Darrell: I love that. Yeah. And it's, it's making sure that the, the answers jive. You know, I think a variation of the question is like, what are the biggest pain points you have in your role?

Why can't you know what's challenging about, uh, achieving your objectives? And if there's gonna be some variance between what the boss says and the, and the. What the direct reports say. So typically when you interview for a role, you also interview with other members of the team, tangential people that you'll be working with, but maybe they don't report to you or you don't report to them.

And if you hear things like shifting priorities or we're just too lean, we can't get it all done, or you know, um. Anything that signals like maybe cultural or work style problems, that's a big red flag, you know? And, um, I have mixed feelings about if they say something like, things are disorganized. you know, I actually think that that's not too, I kind of tricked that as an opportunity because I, I organized things, so I'm like, oh, that's not too bad.

I can come in and I'm the one that's gonna bring order. You're probably missing an ops person. So that's me. Phil: Yeah, it is like a good tactic.

If their answer is something that you love doing and you've done in the past, and then you're just like jiving, like, oh, Ashley, like I fixed this at three of my last companies. This is what we did. This is the tool we use. And they're just like, oh my God.

The thing that keeps me up at night, like. Phil that we interviewed, like he just loves solving that and he's so weird about like that one thing. How does he like doing that? I don't know, but like, so it, it's an opportunity for, for you to kind of jive there, but 7.

Why Fear in a Peer Interview Is the Red Flag You Should Never Ignore - Phil: what do you think Darryl, about asking. People about the last person that had the rule, like asking straight up, like, why did that person leave? Did you fire that person? Were they laid off?

Like, is it a new role that's opening up? Did this person leave? Did, if they did, why? What are your thoughts on like getting to the bottom of that?

Darrell: I think, I think it's fair to ask that. I think, um, I'm not sure what kind of answer you're gonna get. I think that people can be a little bit guarded about the way that they answer that. Um, because on one hand you could say like, well.

They were terrible. They weren't a good fit. They didn't really work out here. That's not really great because it, you know, kind of positions you as like a shit talker and Phil: Mm-hmm.

Darrell: just, maybe you're the problem. So like the negativities is a challenge. Alternatively, what I've heard is, you know, they just left for a better opportunity, which was true. Um, but when I, when I came into the role, I realized that it wasn't, that it was the culture, that's why they left.

So I think it's a little bit difficult to. Get a signal from, you know, that I will say one thing that, that might be interesting is say something like, Hey, if there was a predecessor in the role, what do you wish they would've done differently? Like, what, what, what do you wish that? You know how you could have worked with them better.

I think that that could give you a little bit more insight and they'll be a little bit more truthful. One thing I will say, and I know we, we, we kind of moved away from this, but one thing I will say is a really big red flag is if when you talk to the tangential, you know, peers, when you, when you do interviewing, if you detect any type of fear worry, that's a really red flag. You know, um, if, if, if they are themselves very stressed and tense in their work environment, it's likely that you're gonna be too Phil: Yeah.

Darrell: on. And I will say before I came on to the, you know, not great to the work culture, that wasn't a great fit. When I, inter, when I interviewed with those other people, I saw that and I Phil: Hmm. Darrell: and And, uh, I kind of thought things will get better once I get there.

Because like I can really help them, but sometimes you can't and you, you have to really pay attention to those things. Phil: Yeah, sometimes there's only so much you can do to, to fix the problems that are keeping people up at night. Sometimes it's innate and you like you won't actually be able to fix it. What do you think about like this backdoor option there of finding former employees at the company you're interviewing for and like reaching out cold on LinkedIn, just being like, Hey, I'm interviewing at this company that you worked at.

Do you have like 10 minutes to just like. Tell me if I should run away or like, do you have good things to say about the people there? Like what are your, what are your thoughts? Darrell: That is a genius idea.

I will tell you, and I'll, I'll be, what's a more likely scenario? So what happened to me was when I got offered the job at my last company, I had two offers on the table. And I needed one for sure because I, I needed health insurance. So what you start comparing is what excites you more and also.

You know, the intangible perks that you get, higher title, um, the tangible ones like pay, you know, and like, kind of like what's important to you personally. And I think that if you are in a place where you're, where you're leaving a role to join another one. You know, that's a good approach, but I think that it's probably the last thing on people's minds if they are laid off and if they have been looking for a while, you don't really have a lot of good, um, a lot of good, you know, things.

But, but if you're in a good place, I will say, you know, I think it's a good idea to reach out to former employees. Phil: Yeah, I think it's fair call out. That's, yeah, It's something we kinda said at the start of the episode, but is is worth emphasizing like this, this whole episode is like with a lot of privilege, right? Like it's if you're in a situation you have options, whether you currently have a job and you're looking for something that might be greener and you're evaluating it.

Or you have multiple offers or you're, you're doing like multiple interviews, like this episode is for you. So, but hopefully folks found it valuable still if, um, they are at some point gonna be in the interview process and they're writing down some of their favorite questions. Um, and, and hopefully it helps people decide like whether, you know, they jump ship or they, they double down on that one or, or not. But yeah, I've, I've only done it once where I've reached out to a former employee.

And it's, it was only because I had like yellow flags in the interview process. Like when I asked a couple of things, like, you know, like had some hesitation and some of the answers when I asked the, the question about like, is this a brand new role that you're opening up or am I replacing someone? And they told me I was replacing someone. And when I asked them like, why, uh, that person had left.

I got different answers from different people. Like the hiring manager told me like, oh, they just found a much better opportunity that was better pay. And they just like, they, still had great things to say about the company they work at right now. And then other people on the team were just like, yeah, they were just like overworked a little bit.

Darrell: Mm. Phil: I was like, we're moving too fast for them. And so I actually like found that person on LinkedIn and we're still friends today. And I, I didn't take that job.

I, I didn't jump on it because she told me like, yo. The founding team is crazy. Darrell: That's great. Phil: these people, this is like their first job out of a university.

Like they started this company. They have no idea what they're doing. Like run, don't do it. Run.

And so I ran. Darrell: I love the yellow flag thing, and maybe that's a really good indicator because how can you really get a good assessment in a 30 or 60 minute interview? It's so hard. So if you do detect those yellow flags, great idea.

Reach out to reach out to former employees that that's, that's what such a good idea. Phil: Yeah, so we had a bunch of other ones. Uh, but I think that's, that's pretty good. Uh, w would love for folks to comment or, or reach out if they have a really good question that, that they ask that Uh.

we didn't ask. Uh, would love to hear from your experiences if you had similar experiences to Darrell, where, um, you kind of regretted the, the decision that you made and, and, and now are a bit happier with, with where you landed. Um, but I wanted to Yeah, just kinda like finish off by saying that it is. It is a weird time to be looking for a job out there, and I have the privilege of not needing to look for work.

Right now. I live off the podcast and I have a ton of fun, but I started giving back to folks that aren't, um, you know, with. A job right now and are looking back or looking for in-house work or even fractional work. Um, if you're just looking to like, bounce ideas on like where to freelance and stuff like that, um, I'm happy to do like, uh, free advisory calls.

Um, I've got a newsletter that, um, Darrell said he was gonna collaborate with me on also, but we're featuring people that are open to work right now. So if you've got that banner on LinkedIn or you don't want to use the banner on LinkedIn and you wanna like just. Put your name up on the newsletter. Um, so reach out.

Uh, we know it's weird out there. Keep your head up. What you do is important. It is in demand.

It's just a really weird market right now. So don't give up on, on marketing s and, and MarTech. You'll, uh, you'll figure it out. You'll get it together.

Darrell: Agreed. Agreed. Keep it strong, you know, don't give up. Phil: Thanks for doing this, Darryl.

Thanks for, uh, sharing your, your experience. I know it was a, it was a weird, stressful time, but I'm happy to hear that um, you're in a better place now. Darrell: Definitely, definitely Phil: All right, folks. Chat soon.