Martech Tools Should Serve, Not Dictate with Bree Graham

MSoM Podcast (00:02.371) Most marketing teams already messed up. All good. Most marketing teams have more tools than they have strategy.

And now they're layering AI on top of that. This episode is about what happens when you build fast in the wrong direction and what it actually takes to fix it. A little bit about our guest first. Bree Graham led growth and marketing platform transformation at Cash App and Afterpay for seven years, designing the composable infrastructure that powers acquisition.

engagement and retention across multi-brand global systems. A scaled afterpay from siloed manual execution to am I allowed to say over a hundred million on this one because it's afterpay? Can I say hundreds of millions? Okay.

Let me do that again. She scaled afterpay from siloed manual execution to over hundreds of millions of hyper personalized customer communications per month. Having built and led CRM and lifecycle teams from the ground up, she didn't inherit this problem. She lived it.

Welcome, Bree. So excited that you're here. Bree Graham (00:49.365) Yeah.

Sure. Bree Graham (01:10.338) Thank you. I'm super excited to be having this conversation.

MSoM Podcast (01:13.452) Me too and I want the world to get to know you more and I'm here. So we've got some rapid fire. Is Martech architecture or just a center?

Like which world would you actually be living in right now in those two? Bree Graham (01:31.374) Yeah, I I think it's definitely architecture. I think in the past a lot of people have thought of it as a cost center and technology, but really laddering growth strategies to tooling to build out the architecture is where I would where I'd place it.

MSoM Podcast (01:46.465) Hardly agree. So taking us back to the the good old days, what was your first Smart Tech tool? Bree Graham (01:52.

212) Ooh. a few a few of the OGs, like MailChimp was definitely of the Salesforce, obviously. And I I think it was a masters as well. Yeah.

So I think Yeah. MSoM Podcast (01:58.987) yeah. MSoM Podcast (02:02.

965) Ooh, okay. And which sales? Force? CRM or Pardot or Bree Graham (02:10.

775) CRM. Yeah. MSoM Podcast (02:14.785) What most recently is a tool you cut and what to cut?

Bree Graham (02:20.788) this is an interesting one because I I don't think I'm very I don't think I've recently cut anything. I've really worked on how do you architect the tools to work better together. So really finding how we're really building that customer experience with our tools and leveraging what we have first before we think about bringing in new technology.

MSoM Podcast (02:42.422) Make sense. What is the biggest lie the industry tells itself about AI and go to market? Bree Graham (02:50.

498) I I think really it's around it's going to be everything. I think there's a really nice blend of how does AI really complement the human leverage and how do they best partner together versus how does it become the one thing that everyone's invested in to create the output. MSoM Podcast (03:09.929) Agreed.

Okay. CDPs. Is is it a solved problem or is it still completely broken? Bree Graham (03:18.

914) I don't think it's completely broken. I think we've definitely come a long way from where they used to be a product that was so separate and siloed to your infrastructure and really created like a secondary system of your consumer. I think we're still building and we're still learning, but the composability of them and being able to access what you need and the data you need without it leaving your ecosystem is definitely definitely a step in the right direction. MSoM Podcast (03:44.

65) Agreed. Okay, what is one vendor who has done something actually made you feel like a partner as opposed to just a Bree Graham (03:53.73) Honestly, I think that's how I operate in my day to day. So I wouldn't call out one specific vendor.

I've definitely worked with a lot of them that are actually willing to listen to the consumer problem we're trying to solve and help build their product around that. So I've had a lot of vendors that have come to me and gone, This is a product we're launching. Do you want to work with us and really feed your consumer insight? So instead of these new tech and these new tooling really building out their perception of the product and what they think a consumer needs, they're actually really receptive to sitting down and listening and going, okay, cool.

How do we take your real life examples to do that? And I I've done that with multiple different vendors in the past. So High Touch, CoFrame and a few others. So I'm super excited to kind of see where that goes.

MSoM Podcast (04:39.072) Amazing. Not least, what's your hottest take? Bree Graham (04:43.

049) I I think the hottest take is really around MSoM Podcast (04:48.135) You're good. You're killing it. Take a breath.

You're good. Bree Graham (04:50.344) whew what what was what was my answer before? I've completely forgot.

MSoM Podcast (04:58.535) Let me think. Bree Graham (04:59.274) It was AI yeah, I do remember.

I do remember. No wait, I think it's around the conversation. So we can we can redo that. MSoM Podcast (05:02.

259) Won't fix everything. yes. Okay. All right, what is your hottest, spiciest take?

It is the hot seda. Bree Graham (05:12.844) Yeah, I I think when I look back at some conversations I've had recently, really around transformation and what we're doing and what we're bringing into the system, it's been around why aren't you talking to the AI product more and questioning why that's not coming up in conversations. And I think my perspective is or I don't think it really needs to come up in conversations anymore.

I think talking about AI as a word versus actually embedding it in the product. is the difference. So like my hot take would really be around AI should actually be embedded as your functionality in your product without needing to talk about it every every two seconds. MSoM Podcast (05:50.

716) Agreed. I'm always interested if a question or a statement can be said without A in it and does it change the meaning? Yes. Bree Graham (05:55.

11) Yeah. Yeah. And I think like it comes back to again the difference of people rebranding automation as AI versus integrating AI as the actual output of what what that product is doing. So not like building it into or changing the name of it, but actually integrating it so that it is the product that you're leveraging and it is just kind of stock standard.

MSoM Podcast (06:21.359) Exactly. I think marketing automation continually gets ignored as a term when it's been here the whole time. Bree Graham (06:28.

589) yeah. yeah. Or rebranded when it's not quite needing to be. MSoM Podcast (06:32.

448) Yes, exactly. Okay. Before we can talk about what good looks like, we need to talk about how we got here and how expensive it is to just stay stuck in certain states and I I really call it like the sprawl tax. I'm curious when you're looking at a marketing orgs text act today, how much of what you're seeing is a tooling problem versus an ownership problem?

Bree Graham (06:54.53) I actually think it's both. I I think like in businesses that have been around for a for a while, you really have a lot of tools for different problems and you're you're investing in all of those tools. So I think it goes to is this tool doing the one thing and am I paying for that?

Or on the flip side, has this specific org been told that this tool can do everything and then they're hyper paying for everything? But A different team is actually using a different product and those connective tissues between the orgs aren't talking. So I think it's a hybrid. MSoM Podcast (07:34.

339) I definitely agree. Okay, when the stack is mirroring the orc chart, rather in the customer journey, who do you think is responsible for fixing it and why does it almost never get fixed? Bree Graham (07:46.988) Well, I I I think I would kind of look at that in terms of and I I would say like this is what I love about my job is you need to put the customer first.

So if you're not looking at the customer experience first and you're looking at siloed channels, you you're not servicing anybody. And that that is where the breakage comes. And I think it's really flipping that around to go, I have one consumer. What what are we trying to drive?

So are we trying to drive A re-engagement from a churn consumer, or are we trying to drive a full funnel launch of a product suite? And what does that look like? So I think it's really around making sure that the right teams and the right people are having a conversation of if we're launching something and this consumer is doing that, what what is that end-to-end like an integrated marketing world? And how do we map backwards from that experience?

So what is the output of growth we're trying to drive? And building around that. And I think going back to your point, like who is responsible for that? I think it's really around making sure that the right teams are having the right conversations and we're not.

So for example, if a business is running five different key priorities, we're not running at them separately based on teams and org structs. We're really sitting down and understanding how are the right people working on the right things. And then how does the tech and tooling get us there in the way that actually has a commercial output versus A consumer received a communication and they did one action without knowing that they could have received something else on a different channel and did that have the right the right influence and then muddy your incrementality reporting as well.

MSoM Podcast (09:26.272) that and would you also consider your internal stakeholder. Bree Graham (09:30.926) Sorry, can you repeat that?

MSoM Podcast (09:33.142) Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Would you also consider your internal customer as a stakeholder? Bree Graham (09:37.

624) yeah, and I I think like that's super important in the landscape and the area of my role is around a lot of the tech and tooling world is obviously you're building towards a consumer growth strategy and you're trying to drive the right outputs from the consumers and thinking about how the technology works together. But at the end of the day, the marketing team or the sales team are the people leveraging the tooling and the joy that you get out of this job is really around Are the people using the tools actually excited by using them and actually are we unblocking a lot of the constraints that we've had in the past to do so?

So I I would say a lot of my stakeholders are actually more internal than the end consumer, but if we can get what we need and understand the consumer goal, then we can build our architecture around what a marketer or a salesperson needs so that they can they can kind of like really focus on that customer experience. MSoM Podcast (10:35.477) Agreed, I feel like that's the hardest part is being able to see the end state and working your way backwards to build it. Because sometimes things get forgotten along the way.

Bree Graham (10:43.085) Yeah. Bree Graham (10:46.604) Yeah, no, I agree.

And I think like that's again, like going back to like my early career was really around that consumer marketing side. So really focusing on campaign marketing for consumers. So bringing that back into what I do now and really thinking about if I put my customer hat on, how do I build this in a way that the customer's happy? And having that growth mindset is probably a point of differentiation of.

If I had started my career in technology and really focusing on the architecture only, and it goes back to your initial question of like, is it a cost for a tooling or is it really that orchestration consumer play in it? Like that's what gets me excited, really focusing on the customer, but building the tech for the people to drive a better customer experience. MSoM Podcast (11:33.014) I think people forget that as a nothing bothers me more than folks solely focused on their one segment, their one this and and also having folks in the Martech base not knowing that that's your internal customers' goals.

You have to be able to put two and two together and I find the best Martech leaders are those who have been the marketers as well. Because they can relate to every part of their customer journey, quite literally. Bree Graham (11:51.342) Yeah.

MSoM Podcast (12:02.999) Yeah. Bree Graham (12:03.212) Yeah, and again, like I think that's what I love.

But then when you take that bird's eye view and break it down, I think when we take this back to the tooling side of it is we now have a lot of tools that are coming into market that are actually allowing us to break down those silos. So I would say like two years ago, we probably didn't have that capacity and we were building our tooling for a specific a specific like pillar. So we're building for Our CRM world or our email world, and we're building for our paid media world.

And we never really had the ability to map that orchestration up a funnel in a way that, you know, in the past, everyone's sending data to different tools and they're sitting there and they're breaking it. And then your source of truth is no longer a source of truth until you think about it as a channel perspective. So you look at your CRM system or your email marketing tool. And what you see there is so different to what you are sending to your media channels.

And having tools that are coming into play now that can unlock that and can actually read from your data warehouse to go, I can see a perfect view of a consumer, or I can see a much cleaner view of this consumer and allow us as marketers to build that end-to-end experience in one tool and think of it more as like an orchestration layer, and then your end tools actually become more executional. And are doing the right things for those consumers versus doing everything because that's where we sat in the past.

MSoM Podcast (13:35.588) Yes and yes. Okay, so we keep kind of referencing when things aren't working. And so I think this is the state most companies are in.

Their internal house is a bit messy. The question of centralizing some of that execution hopefully gets cleaned up or it just kind of gets shoved into that, you know, junk closet. And so I wanna talk to you about the execution gap and promise of a centralized execution model, whether it's composable or things along those lines for one customer record. And so if you have one customer record, one execution layered and you collapse the silo in your experience, does this hold up actually operationally at scale or does this move this problem into that job?

Bree Graham (14:23.192) I think it definitely moves how the marketers are doing their day-to-day job. But I but I think like holistically it's what is the additional infrastructure that you're leaning into? So it has the risk of moving it higher up the funnel if you don't think about the whole picture.

But if you are leveraging these executional channels, these executional tools, how are you building the right pipelines to send that data back into your source of truth? So For example, if you have a data hub, whether we Snowflake or elsewhere, and that is where your data teams are focusing on building out the cleanest subset of all of your data, it's really kind of like, what are we sending good versus bad? So if I'm not sending my data back from my media channels or from my CRM or anything, then yeah, you're gonna you're gonna break it because you're not getting that real time experiences.

And the real-time data of what my customer is doing on those channels. But if you can make sure that you're getting everything back up the funnel to the core source of truth, and that is where you've got the right teams focusing on building that out, if you bring in that orchestration on top of that and it's actually reading directly from that versus again pushing that data downstream stream and breaking that, I I think you've got a lot of potential to do it the right way. MSoM Podcast (15:44.

695) agreed and you have more flexibility with that approach. Bree Graham (15:46.832) yeah. Yeah.

And I I think like again, it's not just even the flexibility of what you do with the data, but it's the flexibility of using it in ways that you've never thought about it before because you're not building your data downstream for specific use cases, but you're unlocking the potential to read something that you would never have thought of. And and I think like it it takes the mindset of what campaign am I doing for this one result versus MSoM Podcast (16:10.351) Yes. Bree Graham (16:15.

918) How am I thinking about that customer and what breadth do I have to show me something different? So I think like it goes into could could you use it from AI decision and then the output is different to your hypothesis, but that's okay because you're not going in with a specific hypothesis and you're actually again reading based on what the customer is doing in real time. MSoM Podcast (16:36.611) makes the experiments more fun.

Yeah, that's true. like I like the concept of fun and easy. I've never heard of her. Definitely not.

Okay. Transitioning a little bit. Paid customers excuse me. Paid consumers and engagement.

Bree Graham (16:40.096) More fun, but also more easy. Bree Graham (16:47.63) No not in marketing.

MSoM Podcast (17:00.866) Consumers generally have very different behavior. Is there a strategic case for treating them separately? Or do you think it is there is a rationaliz or do you think there is a rationalization for keeping teams siloed from the different segments and kind of portions of the business?

Bree Graham (17:18.572) I I think it's so interesting because They are the same consumer. So you definitely need to show up for them in different ways based on where they are in that lifecycle experience. And I think there's opportunity now to show up for them in a more connected way based again on their engagement.

So for example, do you actually have to spend all this money on paid media channels if they're already engaging in your CRM and Understanding that is definitely helpful again in the tooling landscape of how do we break down those silos. I do think you have subject matter experts in those fields. So I do think there's definitely a world where they sit separately. But the way that the market's changing, and then when you are bringing in AI capabilities and orchestration capabilities, it gives you the opportunity to reimagine how.

The experience is leveraged and really reposition yourself to understand the full consumer experience. So, like I think there's value in them sitting separately, but there has to be the conversation between them and you have to have the architecture to just to support how you talk to them in a way that you are showing up with them and you're not overcommunicating to them because we all know. In marketing, we always overcommunicate to our consumers and less sometimes is more. So I I think there's just a way where it can be more integrated, going back to again what I said before about repositioning the roles in marketing.

So whether it be more integrated marketing, like people that come in and like build out those experiences or understand that sort of experience to then work with the channel experts, but I I don't think that they should not talk to each other. MSoM Podcast (18:42.021) yeah. MSoM Podcast (19:05.

981) Agreed. And that's where I in my eyes things start to break. Bree Graham (19:09.324) Yeah, and I I think like that's every single marketer's nightmare, right?

Like I don't think we've ever thought of it as broken until we've now seen the potential of how they can talk together and how the tools come in to do that. MSoM Podcast (19:23.307) Exactly. Okay, so when things are working together, who should own the orchestration layer in a really high functioning work?

And why is that seat almost always either empty or contested? And I feel like it's always a topic of conversation and struggle. Bree Graham (19:38.188) Yeah.

And I think like it really comes down to like when we say own it, what do we mean? Because I think again, in roles like mine, it's how do we understand the tools and understand and like create the right infrastructure so they can be leveraged in the right way. And how do we enable the teams to be able to like think about that and build in their strategies? And I think like again, that's what I really love around the Martech role.

not necessarily sitting in product, but actually sitting in a growth org where you have the the ability to actually be like not to break down product versus marketing versus different team units, but you get to sit in that first hand and you get to like co-build that growth strategy and you get to really, as they're being built, be like, hey, we actually do have the right tools and how do we think about it? So I don't think it's really a role that someone should own, but I think it's really a role where If you have the right people in the team and thinking about it, it should always be an ongoing conversation of we can now enable that orchestration.

And why aren't we building to it? But then also, why are we even building to it if they have the right capabilities? So if we could use decisioning to do that, and then the decision decides what channel receives that, it automatically goes from We don't do it, no one owns it to a conversation that's top of mind when you build a strategy to, now that just runs by itself and we're showing up to consumer at the right time. And my growth marketers can actually focus on bigger strategic bets because we're not really building out every single step of the journey anymore.

And I I think like that's what I love about the tools we have these days is as a marketer, you don't have to build a 40 touch point lifecycle journey that has to be data driven. And then in a month, you have to rebuild that because you've actually got insights that are different. Like I think the decisioning tools and again, like the capabilities that we can unlock that are back to, you know, let's not say that they're AI capabilities, they're actually just part of the product and the product can now decide that for us.

That that's where I would love the market to get to. MSoM Podcast (21:36.164) Thank goodness. MSoM Podcast (22:00.

263) Also, you're killing it by the Like you feelin' okay? You want a sip of water? Like we can relax for a second. Yeah, of course.

Yeah, do what you gotta do. Ironically. Bree Graham (22:02.126) my god, I do need water.

my god, it's so it's so hot. Bree Graham (22:15.716) my god, no, so funny. So so so funny.

So I went to the gym this morning and my gym, like I actually went to Barry's, which is like I walked an hour to get there because I was meeting my friend. And no, I went to the one on like upper west side. So I went on like 69th. So I literally walked a whole hour.

And normally when I do that, I take like just like a plastic water bottle because like who could be carrying it. But I like pulled out my high touch water bottle this morning and I yeah. MSoM Podcast (22:26.203) Did you go the one on twenty seventh?

wow. Bree Graham (22:42.828) And so I literally like carried it around the city with me for like fucking two hours. MSoM Podcast (22:46.

949) My favorite water bottle. I'm like, I need to like scratch it off. Bree Graham (22:49.39) You know what it's it's the You know no, but you what is like the best?

it's I've got like one of the Stanley ones and it's like the best one, like hands down, like and like the label is like that big, it's so good. So yeah. MSoM Podcast (22:56.928) Mm.

Ooh. MSoM Podcast (23:04.025) before we dive into the next section, just because in my experience there's so few examples of AI decisioning working, do you feel comfortable talking about how it worked for you guys? Or were the results still kind of pending?

Bree Graham (23:19.188) I I Well, I I think like I'm comfortable in talking about the opportunity that it saw and it goes back to and like you can use this because I'm just gonna like rattle it off, but it just goes back to like what we spoke about before in terms of it unlocked so when we leverage AI decisioning, it really unlocked our mindset of we again, like we have a hypothesis, we have a journey. MSoM Podcast (23:31.875) Ha ha Bree Graham (23:48.

44) That he's doing the thing that we thought it would do, whether it be right or wrong. And then we threw it all into this model that overlaid into our data warehouse. And the outputs were so different to what we were thinking. And it's because it had the context that we hadn't fed into our CRM tools to do the job.

So so again, like I think it goes back to the data piece and having a composable ecosystem that sits on top of the data, not knowing. or like not feeding your hundred and fifty contact properties into a tool and actually unlocking the mindset of what I need as a marketer to What can I tap into for my consumer and what decisions are being made and like how do they work together? And I think like That's yeah. MSoM Podcast (24:45.

578) You feel okay? let me attempt to create a question before so Christine you could put it before that. let's see. I wanted the book like on AI decisioning.

It is the topic, the buzzword of it feels like this you know decade. And I'm curious what your experience has been in terms of learnings and the actual outcome. Bree Graham (24:46.85) Yeah.

Bree Graham (25:14.7) Yeah, and I and I think like again, it's exciting because it goes back to how do we revolutionize how we show up for our consumers and how do we take away as a marketer that I am deciding what a customer is receiving based on data versus how in real time can the context sit on top of your warehouse and drive those outputs? And I think from my experience A, I really think that. This is a functionality that should become business as usual moving forward versus having to orchestrate a lot of things separately.

But I think again, in my experience, it really taught us that we can challenge what we're showing the consumer because we can unlock a lot more data than we're piping in through through into our tooling. So I think from my experience, it's really how do we double down? How do we really again? Let the tooling and let the decisioning happen whilst as a marketer I'm spending my time focusing on something more strategic.

And this is kind of like not just like working in the background, but optimizing the background, giving me different insights in the background and showing me that I can challenge the way that I've thought about what my consumer needs to drive an objective. And maybe sometimes finding like a little hidden gem that goes, I didn't even think of that. Let me double click into that and build a whole different strategy to drive the to drive this growth lever. MSoM Podcast (26:41.

322) Love that. Okay, we've been talking about how when things can trend in the right direction, I want to talk about where things actually get worse. I think this is where most people are stuck. So while teams are still figuring out their general execution layer, AI is coming into the mix.

And sometimes it's it's just means you're not talking to the right people. So I'm curious when the AI team and the Martech team aren't talking, where does the gap first show up in the data, the customer experience, or in reporting? Bree Graham (27:19.34) I I think like it definitely like reporting's probably the first place that you will see it.

because again, like not to say like again where AI sits, but it is leveraged in every single team, in every single like business unit. And like I would say twelve months ago that wasn't the case. And it was really just something that started to creep in and now we've accelerated into a mode of let's use all these different capabilities and different tools and They're sitting on top of your tech stack, right? Like they're not necessarily integrated in.

So I think like to answer the first part of that is as a marketer, I could pull different insights and resort results by using one tool to then what my data team is seeing in in their tool versus like what's pushing down into my dashboard. And i I think we've always had the analytical gap of in my email tool, those results are different to again, like what I'm seeing in my data warehouse. So I think like it's just made it more prevalent to what those cracks are because there's so much more coming in and creating silos.

But I think like as you work out how these tools work together. My kind of two sense is they should be co-built together moving forward. So whether there is new AI tooling that people are leveraging in their day-to-day, it's really around how do you architect them to sit and work together with those tools versus plugging, you know, one tool in to do one thing. And breaking it.

So I think like there's a world where in a marketing function or a Martech function, you should have the right resourcing. And again, like when I say the right resourcing, there's so many new roles that are coming into play in market now. And I think like it just goes to show it shouldn't be a I have a buy mentality and I have a build mentality. It should be around if I'm buying these tools, how do they?

Bree Graham (29:29.234) work to integrate in my ecosystem? How do all these BAU tools that everyone are using to like make their work life and their orchestration in their day-to-day easier? How do we think about working to them together or like where is the opportunity that they do work together versus where they don't?

And again, it goes back to they don't have to be the same person, but how do you at least have the same conversation that it's I'm bringing in specific whether it be GTM tooling to really rethink about like that sales orchestration flow and if I'm bringing that in, is it I'm bringing in a tool that is legacy and sits in market or I'm really looking at an AI native tool. And if I am thinking about that AI native tool, how does it plug into my sales or my marketing's workflow in their day to day so that they're not jumping around into different tools.

So you think about a world where all these partners are building MCP tooling. And actually think about how you have the right people that are building together so that it can plug in and work as one system where it needs to be. And maybe there's a world where I don't have to go into my ten different marketing tools anymore because we've built something that I can use as my interface that then talks and operates like in those different worlds. MSoM Podcast (30:50.

81) Broken dream. Bree Graham (30:52.11) Yeah, but I think like it's not just a dream. Like I think like it's definitely happening.

And I think it also runs a risk of breaking or like building more silos. So again, it's how do you have a team that focuses on that and you have the subject matter experts of bringing in the right tools and thinking about that architecture, but then it's how do you take that more upstream and think about the architecture of how MSoM Podcast (31:04.346) Yes. Bree Graham (31:19.

896) Does a tooling suite and the AI infrastructure actually become one world? And how do you co-build that with the right people? And then how do you enable or like how do you bring in the right people to sit down and enable the sales and marketing users to actually build what they need in a way that they're not spending more time building something that breaks? Like I MSoM Podcast (31:40.

801) Right. And I guess it's the the next hard question of like who's actually accountable for this integration and just making sure that connective tissue is in place. Your point, it can very easily just be siloed by team. Bree Graham (31:56.

323) Yeah, I I think like again, it comes down to how every business builds their team separately, right? Or differently, right? So I think it really comes down to the individual business and what they're thinking. But I think like it should really sit under the same pillar.

So I I I don't necessarily think that it should be engineering's building this and marketing's doing that. I think it should really be if you're creating a hub, how do you co build those OKRs together and how do you become accountable together and really understand the roles and responsibilities of we're not just bringing in a tool like again, like you're not like bringing in a new Martec tool and then you drop it and then you get like, you know, that's where you get your MSoM Podcast (32:44.

0) You're good. That construction is gnarly. Yeah, it's okay. Bree Graham (32:44.

514) That's like can you hear it? my god, I can't even hear it. But like I think like it goes back to like how do you get that sprawl? Like so it's really around creating or breaking down how a marketing team used to work or a product team used to work and really rethinking and revolutionizing that may maybe like the CMO is now responsible for that.

I I don't know, but again, like it's really. looking at what you need to achieve, what are your goals and how do you have the right people that sit in that pillar to do it. MSoM Podcast (33:20.791) I love that.

okay now here's maybe a harder version. So AI teams and data teams are effectively neglecting their internal customers. And the Martech and GoToMarket teams. Sorry, let me reread this question.

MSoM Podcast (33:41.835) Actually let me rephrase this. Okay, so we've been talking a lot about the different teams, the ownership, the silos, and how if they're all working separately and not so integrated, do you think this is showing up in the customer's experience? Are we shipping the org chart more than we should be?

Bree Graham (34:01.313) I think we always have though. Like I I don't think this is new news. I I think like we have an unconscious bias to always work to our specific OKRs and our specific strategies.

And I I think like across my career I've definitely felt the differences of pushes and pulls between what the team is doing versus what the business is driving. And I I think it really comes down to again. Conversations around why it isn't working. And I think it's really around making sure that we have joint goals and really think about again having a champion in the marketing team to be able to bring back to the conversation and go, okay, I love what you're building, I love what we're doing.

But fundamentally, what is that driving for the consumer and like how are we showing up for them? And I think like I've had so many examples of. Building out really strong relationships internally by being open and honest around those conversations and really both educating each other around what we're trying to do for the consumer and why that looks what that looks like. And really rethinking about so a lot of it is around rethinking about how presenting to stakeholders w why this is driving value for them.

Not necessarily like what they're shipping, but like Does it give them time back to focus on bigger and better things? And how do we streamline our architecture in a way that we're breaking down the mold of what we're used to, what we're used to doing? And I think like it comes back to, you know, like not just breaking down the way that we've been building things, but the tooling market is changing so dramatically now that a lot of tools that are entering the market are completely different to.

what most people have known throughout their whole career. So it's really again having the conversation and having the enablement and showing the business value of why these new AI native tools are actually complementary versus a bit of a fad. MSoM Podcast (36:14.323) dinosaur.

Yeah. And you don't you want something in the middle. You want consistency, you know, enterprise grade, but also the flexibility to do more. Bree Graham (36:15.

639) Yeah, yeah, like one or the other, right? Bree Graham (36:27.971) Yeah, and I think like again that goes back to one of the quick fire questions around like working with vendors and the partnerships. Like I think there's so many new toolings entering the market now that they are so hungry to I guess like they've got a vision and they're amazing and they're building this this this output, but they're also really hungry to learn and they're really hungry to take experience and understand why we would want to use their tool and again build towards that.

So that they're not shipping this really cool tool, but it's actually not going to drive a customer outcome. So again, back into that vendor relationship and understanding how do they work together and how is it a value add to your business to MSoM Podcast (37:12.975) Ha ha Bree Graham (37:16.835) I warned you, like this is my my street is like the quietest street ever.

Like the quietest street ever. Except today. MSoM Podcast (37:18.618) MSoM Podcast (37:24.

081) That's okay. That's impressive. Hehehehe Bree Graham (37:32.685) I was on such a roll too.

MSoM Podcast (37:35.377) Okay, we can circle back. I think we're good. Bree Graham (37:37.

677) Okay. For the next second. MSoM Podcast (37:49.805) And hold on let me think what were we saying?

let's see. I think we were talking about like better relationships and how they're hungry. Bree Graham (37:50.183) yeah, right.

Bree Graham (38:02.477) Yeah, I I yeah, I I think like it comes back to again like the hungriness to create a product that is not just doing really cool things, but actually understanding the customers that the marketers are talking to and really building for that. So I think like an example would be really around if a product is new to market and being built and doing amazing things. Doing amazing things.

MSoM Podcast (38:30.539) Yeah. Bree Graham (38:32.205) Yeah.

my god. Do do do. Bree Graham (38:39.209) I'm glad you can't hear that.

MSoM Podcast (38:41.327) I can, but it's not as bad. It's not your fault. I I get it.

Bree Graham (38:43.277) my god, I'm so sorry. This is like the worst. No I've closed on my windows, I've closed on my doors, and it's still like I don't know what they're doing.

Like it's crazy. MSoM Podcast (38:55.437) They probably don't either. Bree Graham (38:57.

431) No, I no, I agree. I really agree. MSoM Podcast (39:05.711) I think it's good enough for the Bree Graham (39:09.

453) no, I Bree Graham (39:17.485) Do MSoM Podcast (39:17.935) Miss New York but I don't miss that as much. Bree Graham (39:20.

734) my gosh. my god, this weather in New York is just like making me so obsessed again. Like MSoM Podcast (39:28.035) Yeah.

Bree Graham (39:28.921) So good. But anyway, I feel like we've got a section on this anyway, so yeah. We've got a section on this anyway, so we can kinda like double down on it when we get there.

MSoM Podcast (39:34.435) I th I think we can cut this out. Yeah. Okay.

MSoM Podcast (39:42.584) Perfect. So we've been talking about AI without infrastructure being a huge problem. And the fix is actually maybe closer to home, and I quite mean that literally.

So before any of this works, centralization, orchestration, and AI, you need clean data. Imagine that. Suppression logic and segment hygiene. What in your eyes does getting your house in order actually require a day that didn't wasn't required three years ago?

Bree Graham (40:11.727) Well, I I think like the data piece is definitely like the one thing that makes everything so successful. But I think like definitely double clicking on just the governance behind what that looks like. really for me the most important thing is centralizing that.

So again, like coming back to what we touched on before around different tools storing and owning your data and creating a different persona of the customer based on what channel you're using should be a thing of the past now. It should not be it should not be like the primary anymore and it shouldn't be the go to. I I think like the most important piece is and the most important piece is really understanding MSoM Podcast (40:59.351) Okay, starting in with the most important pieces are understanding.

Bree Graham (41:01.571) Yeah. Yeah. I think the most important piece is really understanding what first party data is actually truly needed outside of your ecosystem.

So really looking at where you're sending data, what is it used for, and auditing like what can be brought back up the funding. MSoM Podcast (41:22.092) I want to double click on that particularly because you come from a highly regulated industry in the financial services industry. How does that come into play with governance?

Bree Graham (41:35.671) I think like again, like the most exciting part to me around all of this is and again, like I feel like no one will ever say they really enjoy the governance side of the business, but I think it to me is so yeah, I I get so excited by it No, me too, because I get so excited about like how we can rethink about the customer and really build for how we show up for them in a really secure way. So again, like primarily to me, the first thing I would ever do is MSoM Podcast (41:46.

815) I do. Bree Graham (42:02.893) Look at where that data sits, what it's used for, and rethink of like what does that tech stack look like? So again, having tools in market these days that allow you to query directly from your warehouse, whether it be from a content property perspective or a personalization perspective, and thinking about the right way to like it takes work to be like, my gosh, like in these comms, I've got all this data here and I now want to do it in a different way.

So it it definitely is a change management piece. But getting your house in order to me is really around understanding how much data you can bring back up into your ecosystem and leveraging the new tools and the composability behind that and rebuilding out the way that you show up for your consumer. I think like the best thing we can do for our customer is keep their data in one place. So why don't we leverage the tools that do that and MSoM Podcast (42:55.

667) Agreed. Bree Graham (42:57.889) if we can do that in a way that the accountability sits and is owned in one place predominantly, like there's obviously always infrastructure reasons why, but if you can predominantly own everything in one place and then leverage it in a way that these tools and technologies are really unlocking, then then why aren't we doing that? Like to me that's a no brainer.

MSoM Podcast (43:20.969) It's so impressive. what I find interesting in your responses is IT has yet to come up as it relates to governments. I'm curious, especially at such a sprawling large organization that has multiple sub brands, how is that managed or sorted and what level of empowerment is the Martec team?

Bree Graham (43:46.639) I totally missed the start of that question. MSoM Podcast (43:48.657) That's okay.

The question was, we haven't talked about IT at all as it relates to governance and what's 'cause we've been talking about like data engineering, we've been talking about Martech. What role, especially in such a big company with multiple sub brands, how does that come into play? Bree Graham (44:08.3) Yeah, I I think like for me again, it's really having the right subject matter experts in place.

Like I I would say like IT is a core pillar in terms of auditing the right tools and auditing the way that the data is leveraged and having a very strong internal governance process. I I think like again, if you can really rethink about the way that you orchestrate everything. MSoM Podcast (44:35.465) The way that you orchestrate everything.

Bree Graham (44:40.739) Yeah, I think that's Bree Graham (44:45.367) What are they doing? again, I literally live on the quietest street ever.

It's like they're fucking like building like an underground house or something. MSoM Podcast (44:58.79) I don't know. Bree Graham (45:00.

769) I've never seen anyone in New York work this hard. MSoM Podcast (45:04.326) I mean hey, Mom Donnie's New York. Bree Graham (45:07.

839) my god, actually side note I woke up at like 1 a.m. to music blasting in my street. And I was like, what the fuck is this?

There was like this, like no, because I never hear anything. Like my street is so quiet. And like I sleep with my windows open every night, like it's dead silent. And then I was like, what is this?

Why is there a rave on my street? And I looked outside my window and there was like this van with like all its doors and its back open. And I was like, what is going on? MSoM Podcast (45:15.

642) Y how do you not have a sound machine at this point? Bree Graham (45:37.101) And it was the city bike people. It was the city bike people like replacing the city bikes.

And I was like, guys, I love your commitment to working at 1 a.m. to like re like stock the bikes outside my apartment. But like, why are you having a disco in a suburban street?

MSoM Podcast (45:39.909) No. MSoM Podcast (45:48.902) There's air pods.

MSoM Podcast (45:55.641) Okay, it's quiet. Bree Graham (45:55.841) Anyway, it was a lot.

but back to your question since this is like I don't I like normally all this stuff is like muffled out, so I don't know what's going on today. what was I saying? MSoM Podcast (46:09.589) we're talking about IT being a another pillar when you have to have to rethink how you orchestrate everything.

Internal governance. Bree Graham (46:10.893) Open street in government. Bree Graham (46:20.

569) Yeah, I I yeah. MSoM Podcast (46:26.436) Okay. No stress.

MSoM Podcast (46:37.644) Okay. Bree Graham (46:39.547) Like literally the one day.

yeah, I I think it comes down to like orchestrating the internal side of what are the right what are the right tools, what are the right processes and have like having the right approvals in terms of like what do the tools do? Do they have the right certificates? Are they are they regulated in a way that they should be to bring into our businesses? But then also what level of data approval do they have?

So can we rank what we're sending to them and can we de-risk our business and our integrations by again keeping our data up the funnel? So I think it really goes back to that first point of what is getting your house in order. And it is if I can centralize my data and make sure I'm not sprawling that everywhere or that I'm sending it in like highly gated ways to the right channels, then your IT team, you're making their lives easier because you are not asking to send every single data point elsewhere.

So yeah, I think like having the right teams and the right processes for the approvals is hyper important, but it's also comes down to like the marketer's accountability of what they're asking for and what I guess like understanding how it actually comes into play. MSoM Podcast (47:57.845) Agreed. And I will say we've we're gonna come back to it, but we touched on the vendor partnership being so important.

I think to your point, the internal partnership with IT and beyond is also just as important because instead of IT kind of overseeing, being like, this person doesn't need access to what you can come with. Like, hey, we are focused on the principle of least privilege. We want it to be specific, siloed so that only those who need access to certain things have access. access.

And as long as you show up as an informed partner, I think some of these things just they fly by so much easier when they're like, we don't have to do all of the front work. They've done exactly what they need and we'll provision accordingly. Bree Graham (48:41.773) Yeah, and I think like there's two parts to that.

One is around the partnerships thing. I think the most successful people at any job in any organization is someone that's invested in building partnerships across the board. So you don't have to know everything and you don't have to be the subject matter expert in the areas that you're not. But if you can show up as a true partner and build the trust and build those relationships, that really goes a long way.

And I think like with IT as well, like. It's just mammoth in terms of like how much you can understand what you're asking from them. And I don't think it should really sit like the second parties. I don't really think it should be in a highly regulated industry, this is the norm.

I think it should be in every single industry, this is the norm. Because at the end of the day, any single consumer across any single brand and product is trusting them with their data. And and like that's a privilege. Like that is a privilege that a person wants to give me.

MSoM Podcast (49:33.186) Yes. Bree Graham (49:40.963) their data or a limited subset of that.

So whether it be finance, whether it be beauty, whether it be anything, whether it be a fast food restaurant, like I think like we as a marketer or as a business have, you know, a commitment to them to really show up and think really governance first in any single subset. MSoM Podcast (50:09.439) I love that and while we've talked about IT, we've neglected to talk about procurement. And that relationship can always be a little testy, depending on the situation.

And I'm curious how you've made cases and and built to the really flee you can't hear my dogs, could you? Okay. Bree Graham (50:26.991) Yeah.

MSoM Podcast (50:33.139) How have you built the relationships internally with procurement to ensure that your vendors that you're considering to be partners aren't treated as just a line item, but something more? Bree Graham (50:43.087) Yeah, and I I think like first and foremost, I wanna say, like, again, like harping on how important relationships are to me internally, procurement is some of my favorite people.

Like, you're asking them to partner with you to spend a mammoth amount of money because again, like tooling is expensive and getting more expensive by the day. So, like I think like it really comes down to how do you build a really strong poor with these people and not Treat them in a way that they're here to do a transaction for you, but they're actually also on the journey of understanding the product and the tooling. And they have a commitment to the business as well to not just get the best deal, but really understand the whole ecosystem.

And I guess like they also set across multiple different business units. So they're almost like an additional connective tissue across if market is buying tooling and product is buying tooling and sales is buying tooling. They have oversight into all of that. So again, they are so well placed to be a thought leader, to go, Hey, Brie, you're thinking about bringing in this specific website tool, but the sales team are leveraging a different product already.

How do we think about making sure that they're included in RFP? And how do we make sure that we're not just bringing in a the same, same but different vendor with a marketing versus a sales fan? And I like again, like To me, that comes back down to over time marketing and sales are becoming one holistic GTM hub as well. So again, like procurement sit in a world where they should be that partner and they should actually be also building really strong relationships with with the vendors and not just brought in to get the sharpest deal.

They they they should be doing that too, but like it should be like a three-way relationship that you're building to really drive the best outcome. MSoM Podcast (52:40.829) Yep. I have yet to experience that, but Yes.

Bree Graham (52:44.303) I I'm very, very lucky that I have and I'm so grateful for that because again, when you when you're really building this out, that trust is so important. And again, like it kind of like makes or breaks like the way that your architecture is built. Because if for something some reason that that procurement team isn't really vibing or jamming with the tool and the vendor that you really need, like MSoM Podcast (52:54.

908) Yeah. MSoM Podcast (53:02.363) It does. Bree Graham (53:12.

027) that's gonna like hinder you. So again, like how do you really build these three dimensional relationships that that you're like you're really leaning in in the right area. So you're working with procurement, they're working with the vendor, but then I'm working with the vendor to build out like how do we best show up for a consumer? So yeah, I I think there's so many benefits to a really strong partnership there.

MSoM Podcast (53:37.626) Sure. And to your point, procurement does have the oversight to know, we have all of these different platforms. Let me flag if because as excuse me, as each tool evolves, they start meeting towards the middle, because they keep adding features that are very similar to existing features within other products.

And they can be a helpful thought partner, at least even if it's just a flag of, hey, notice this happened. Bree Graham (53:54.925) Yeah. MSoM Podcast (54:02.

53) maybe worth reconsidering how we're using different features and capabilities. Bree Graham (54:05.911) Yeah. I yeah, and I think like that goes back to what I touched on before around, you know, your tech stack and having tools that do everything and paying for what they're doing, but then not leveraging half of them or not understanding half of them, or having multiple different tools where you've brought a tool on to do a specific thing and they're building other features, and then you have another tool that does the other thing that those features are being built and actually you end up having same, same but different tools and not understanding the architecture.

Or again, like then people in my role really go, how do we get them to work together and like bridge that orchestration gap? But then they're like, but why aren't you leveraging our whole product versus trying to like work out how we plug and play with these other vendors? So Again, I'm very lucky throughout my career that I have really strong relationship with vendors that they're willing to work together and think about how do they solve for the customer experience now that we've taken them through what does that like closed loop look like?

But on the flip side, you do have a world where you have partners that are building the same thing in reverse. And if you don't have oversight into that, then that kind of like takes you back to the start of. What is that sprawl that I'm recreating in a different way? MSoM Podcast (55:31.

498) Right. Okay. And this is leading up to a related but important question. What is real partnership, growth partnership look like with these vendors?

And it's beyond the customer advisory board cabs or like QBRs, like who initiates it? What does each side do differently to 'cause it is a it's a relationship. So what are the best ways to go about it? Bree Graham (55:55.

405) Yeah, like I think like the best relationships and like the best partnerships I've been able to build is being completely honest and actually being in a way that you can be in somewhat transparent around like what your business goals are. So not necessarily, you know, sharing all the results and the outputs, but actually high level bringing them in and using them and like kind of thinking of them as an extension of your team and your day-to-day should be in lockstep with specific vendors.

So not not to say that like that is all you're doing, but I think like there's a world where having continual conversation around what are we driving? Are we leveraging the right features? What new features are coming? And again, creating a rapport where they come to you when they're building something and you go to them with Again, like I've had partners where I've gone to them with problems that aren't necessarily their problems and their tool may not solve.

But you sit down in a room and like you brainstorm and then they're like, we're actually building this. And I didn't think that it would do that, or I didn't think you're interested, or hey, we've got it like we've got a relationship with this other tool. And actually that could help solve your problem. And this is how we connect with them.

So again, like relationships and conversation and the human element of how does like how do we create this system? To me is one of the most valuable things that like creates that ecosystem. MSoM Podcast (57:25.142) Wholeheartedly agree.

And also you want to be flagged as er no. And also it's a green flag if you get asked to be part of a beta. Or hey, would you like to try this out before we really release things and just see if it works for any of your use cases based what we're about? Things like that.

Bree Graham (57:35.758) Yeah. Bree Graham (57:44.633) Yeah, and like I I I think like to me that is so much more valuable than sitting in a you know, a QBR once quarterly and you've missed an opportunity and it's like, we could have done that.

But then also that does come at a risk. And again, like that's why the relationship building is so important because there are times that you have to be like, I'm so sorry, I can't be a thought partner on this, or it's not a priority for me right now, and I love what you're building, but like That isn't a priority on my roadmap right now. So it's the healthy tension of I come to you every time I want something and like I really want you to shop there, but also there are times where I need to say no to you because I just don't have the capacity.

And what does that look like? So again, like having a true respectful relationship from a vendor partnership perspective is so important and it unlocks a lot of opportunities. But yeah, I I think like again, it goes back to MSoM Podcast (58:20.019) Right.

Bree Graham (58:41.977) How can you build that and integrate that into your day-to-day workflow? And then how do you have your procurement partner in like your wider subnet of people that can either have your back and like push forward where you need to be or kind of like keep you accountable to like what you truly need to do? MSoM Podcast (59:00.

98) Okay, let's bring this home a bit. You've said in general, it's not about the tool, the platform, the vendor. It's usually about how you wield it and use it to your own unique advantages. And so what does that distinction in your eyes look like originally?

Bree Graham (59:19.087) Yeah, and I I think like it definitely comes down to under s like understanding what the tool does and how to use it. Like I think like that is one of the biggest red flags that I see over time where people don't know what it does or don't leverage it in a way that's actually driving the outcome, or they're only thinking about it in a siloed box. So again, like going back to like all these new tools that are driving driving change in the market and driving orchestration, like w what?

Like I think it's that, like it's understanding what what's driving your business outcome. So again, it's really making sure that you're spending time understanding that. And again, like I think like in the world now where AI definitely is like showing up more and you have so many systems, people are hungry to learn. Like if you're not learning, you're falling behind.

So I think like the approach that people are taking in their day-to-day lives to be like, What like how am I using Claudi My Data and how does that integrate with all my tools personally, professionally? Like, how do I run these systems? People are excited by that. So I think like it comes back to we need to bring that into our professional mindset and go, hey, yes, I've been using this tool for X amount of years, but I need to be hungrier to understand.

What it actually can do now versus what it used to do, or challenge the mold to be like, could this work better if I integrate it with other things? Or, hey, how does my Martech landscape and my AI tooling landscape work together? So I think again, like it it's acknowledging that we have this new revamped mindset of learning new things versus the status quo. So I I wanna say like to me that's it.

Like making sure they were always challenging the status quo, regardless of this is the way that I've always done it. And I I think like that's what I enjoy the most. MSoM Podcast (01:01:26.94) Reach.

Only everyone thought that way. Bree Graham ( ) Again, I I think people are starting to I think like if you're not, you're feeling it. So again, like taking it away from Doing it once too, how does it just become the normal everywhere with everything? And again, like of course I'm passionate about some tools I've used and like how they show up and like have a lot of respect for them, but also it's not about the tool.

It it's it's about how are we servicing the customer and how do we have a connected system that can do it and maybe A tool is amazing, but it's not right for this experience. So again, it's taking out that side of it and going, what am I building for my customer? And again, like customer being marketers in this act this scenario. So like what am I building for the marketers so that they can show up at the customer at the right time?

And what value are we unlocking there? And again, the the tools become the The behind the scene mindset, but but like there's so many tools that do similar things. It's really just around how how do we create a connected world. MSoM Podcast ( ) agreed and besides what you've built after paying cash out, is there another team or company out there that you think is following a similar approach successfully?

Bree Graham ( ) Yeah, I like I have a respect for a lot of again the smaller startup companies because they have such an amazing opportunity to create an AI native workflow. Like they have the ability to not have to break down the barriers to be like, we have a 20-year-old email marketing platform that everything is so integrated into or we have an infrastructure that's so broken, or we are operating based on our org chart versus our customer capabilities. So I I don't want to say like there's one specific company.

There definitely is, but like I think it really comes down to those smaller scale companies have such a blank canvas to build for current state, future state. And I I think like in bigger companies and In the way that things have been built in the past. There should be a mindset around we shouldn't just pull a tool out or like we shouldn't just plug AI in on top, but we should really audit and understand like, is this scalable in 10 years? Or how do we rethink about this that we can have the opportunity to recentralize a lot of our data and our governance and reorchestrate it in a customer-first way versus a team-based system?

So That that's the thing I'm most excited about. MSoM Podcast ( ) I agree. I think building on that, maybe it's a hot take, but up until this point I think vendors chose architectural p decisions and it's been in the past ten years or so where actually companies are taking back that and being like, I don't have to follow the prescribed approach. I can do what works best for my business model and Bree Graham ( ) Yeah.

MSoM Podcast ( ) taking back that power and so it the tr you make the tools what you want them to be as opposed to the tools dictate how you use them. Bree Graham ( ) Yeah, and I think like again it comes back down to the composability piece, right? Like again, a few years ago that wasn't even a word and that wasn't even a conversation topic. And again, it came back to the way of thinking of if I have one tool, how do I I don't want to say build it, but like, how do I break it in a way that I can use it for so many more capabilities?

Like I I think like that's the mindset, regardless of where I've worked across multiple different years, is a theme has always like we we build and we break. And the breaking isn't a good thing. Like we're we're changing and molding this tool in to do a thing that isn't what it was built for because we're paying a lot of, you know, like I think like it's a world of MSoM Podcast (01:05:31.08) Every Bree Graham ( ) How are like the market is being reinvented in a way that they're making it so much easier to integrate together and it allows us to really focus on the customer and drive that adoption, but we just need to also like make sure we're not creating different silos.

MSoM Podcast ( ) Always and forever. Okay. Have you thought of a person? Otherwise I'll skip it.

No one at all. Not even like boss or anyone else? Okay. alright.

Bree, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on making sense of Martin. Where can folks find you, follow along, learn from your insights? Bree Graham ( ) No.

Bree Graham ( ) yeah, LinkedIn. MSoM Podcast ( ) You got LinkedIn? Okay. All right.

Where can folks find you? Bree Graham (01:06:58.05) on LinkedIn. MSoM Podcast ( ) That's everything.

Is there anything you didn't get to say that you w wanted to add to the conversation? Bree Graham ( ) I don't even know what I said to be completely honest with you. my gosh, no, but thank you. I I I think like did did I did I touch on like I think I did, but like the way that it's kind of reinventing the way that teams are hiring.

Yeah. MSoM Podcast ( ) Well you killed it. yeah. Okay.

MSoM Podcast ( ) You didn't explicitly, let's we'll find a place to insert that, so just riff. Bree Graham ( ) Yeah. I'm trying to think about what was. But yeah, I I think like it really comes down to like how do we like the job markets being reinvented in terms of the different roles and the different capabilities.

And again, being able like what I'm seeing is being able to build new roles in a way that unlock how we leverage tooling capabilities. So again, going back to the How do Martec and AI and data teams all work together? It's really around having those subject matter experts focusing on how do we build an architecture that works, but then hiring the right roles to help marketing adopt or build and integrate workflows. And I think it really comes down to oper operate.

my god, that's a word I can't say. Oper nope, operationalizing. MSoM Podcast ( ) It's so hard. You can try it again.

Oper operationalizing. There we go. Bree Graham ( ) Opera operationalizing. no, A, I think it really comes back down to a way that like we are setting up our teams in a future-proof way where they're not just adopting and building AI separately, but actually integrating it into a business where this all becomes one world.

No, I don't think I liked that. MSoM Podcast ( ) You could do the ecosystem raising that you had earlier. Bree Graham ( ) Yeah. Yeah, okay.

no I I I don't know. I I don't think we need to go there. I'm yeah, I don't know. MSoM Podcast (01:09:08.

75) Okay. Okay. Do you wanna stop recording? And re okay.

Bree Graham ( ) Yeah.