The Golden Age of TikTok | Levi Lindsay, Creative Director at Neighbor and Co-Founder at we.are.mind.

Speaker A: Welcome to E Commerce Innovators, a podcast that brings together the brightest minds in the industry to explore innovative strategies and trends in global e commerce. Our Host is John LeBaron, Chief Revenue Officer at Pattern, the premier partner for global e commerce acceleration.

Speaker B: Good morning, everyone. This is John. I'm John LeBaron, and welcome to E Commerce Innovators. I am the Chief Revenue Officer at Pattern, and I am joined today by Levi Lindsay. He is the creative director for Neighbor.com and we're really stoked to have him on the show today. Welcome, Levi.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: So what does a creative director do@nabor.com and tell us a little bit for those that don't know that company. Uh, I mean, you're Utah base here, but you guys kind of blown up. Tell us a little bit more about what Neighbor does and what you do there.

Speaker C: Oh, man. If you ask, uh, like the data team or customer service, uh, we just goof around all day, but it's actually hard work. Um, we do. We make a lot of goofy TikToks. Uh, yesterday, um, we dressed up a Tiktoker. London Lazaruson. Um, awesome dude. He's got 9 million on TikTok. Ah, we dress him up like an alien. Shot for 12 hours, made a bunch of TikToks, made a TV commercial. Um, we'll get, we'll get full funnel out of that day yesterday. Um, so it's hard work, but it's. It's insanely fun. So my job is to make sure that content isn't the bottleneck for, for performance, basically.

Speaker B: Yeah. I love it. And, uh, I can't wait to go chat and look down and review some of those TikTok videos and stuff. I've been following you guys for a little while and it's always super fun, fresh ideas. And, uh, I think we'll get into that a little bit as background and contacts. Tell us, uh, context. Tell us a little bit more about what Neighbor does and those that are not familiar with it.

Speaker C: Yeah, Neighbor, it's. It's like the Airbnb for storage. Um, so if you have an extra space in your garage, basement, driveway, any unused space, we even have commercial clients that will rent out like an empty Sears or, or a strip mall. Um, so any unused space, um, uh, you can rent it out on neighbor.com.

Speaker B: and where are you guys currently? Like, how far does the network extend today? Um, are you guys in the Western U.S. are you across the U.S. are you just in Utah? Are you international? Tell us a little bit more about the footprint.

Speaker C: We have, um, a neighbor host in every city in the country right now. Wow.

Speaker B: Wow, that's super impressive. And how long have you been at the company?

Speaker C: Um, seven months. Coming up on eight.

Speaker B: Fantastic. And besides, neighbor, I mean, just again, give everyone context, a little bit of what you do and who you are and, and maybe a little bit more around the questions that I'll be asking. Tell us a little bit about your journey, what you do on the side. You know, family, a little bit, just so people get to know you a little bit more before we dive deep and some of the questions we have prepared for you.

Speaker C: Yeah, Um, I married for around seven years. Um, and I've got two little girls, Gigi and Rosie. Rosie's three. Gigi is, um, going to be a year old in, in a couple of weeks. And, man, I'm a sucker for those little girls. Uh, I kind of feel like a grandma, not a dad, because I'm the one, like, always sneaking candy behind my wife's back. Um, they just, they know how to manipulate me and I'm, like, not mad about it at all. Um, I, uh, started VidArmy in 2018, did that for a few years, um, and learned a lot of really valuable lessons. Um, I think that was like my master's degree, because I didn't go get a master's degree. Um, that was the universe saying, well, we're going to give you one anyway. Um, and then went over to Kizik and learned a lot about E comm and content and really just marketing in general. And then neighbor scooped me up, um, in December last year. Yeah, that's fantastic. And then, sorry, on the side, too. We do wearemind.org I do that with Nick Stagge. Um, we do events, um, sell apparel on our website. All of the proceeds go to provide free therapy for people that can't afford it. Um, if you've seen the thought bubble on LinkedIn or any other social. It's kind of like our rainbow flag or our pink ribbon for breast cancer. It's just a sign to say I'm open to talk about mental health. Um, and, uh, to hear anybody's story and to share stories. Yeah.

Speaker B: How has that been received? I think that's like, such a noble cause. And how did you get passionate about it? Obviously you shared some of your struggles with, uh, mental illness and challenges and things like that. How did that kind of come about? And how has your passion been kind of manifested through that initiative?

Speaker C: Yeah, I grew up not talking about mental health at all. Um, definitely A rub some dirt on it. Family or just like. Or like, anxiety doesn't exist. Family. And then starting a business. I had several panic attacks as some of the cruxes of the difficulty of starting a business. Uh, and then I was like, oh, man, this mental health stuff is real, and Johnny Hannah's not lying, and Corey Stevens with Taft isn't lying. Um, the stuff's no joke. Um, and then I even, uh, exiting my business, found myself, um, I attempted suicide. Um, and so even after starting mind, I've had lots of, um, opportunities to learn more about mental health. Um, I've experienced burnout. Um, the best way I've heard it put is if you've got a brain, you've experienced mental, um, health challenges at some point in your life.

Speaker B: Yeah, that is so wild and. And so timely, man.

Speaker C: I just.

Speaker B: I read an article on LinkedIn the other day. Um, it was actually, I think, a video from one of the ufc.

Speaker C: Uh. Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Wasn't that sick? It's such a powerful. You just found out right before he weighed in a couple hours before that one of his good friends had killed himself. And it just, you know, he made a comment, something the effect of, I would way rather take a call from you and, like, let you share your grief and burden with me than to have to go to your funeral. So open up. And, you know, we're taught as men not to talk about these things and not to endure this grief. And so I just, uh, I thought it was so, you know, benevolent and really poetic in a way, but also, um, just so timely, I think, especially as people are getting laid off as they're going through these challenges. You've got inflation, you've got, you know, uh, just crazy economy right now and gas prices. And I think, um, both men and women alike are feeling that. That squeeze. And sometimes it doesn't feel okay to kind of talk about it. So I really applaud your efforts there.

Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. It's been awesome. It's all the community, like, we. The thing about starting a community is you're not really starting the community. You're just giving the community a vehicle to all hop in. Um, it's like they're all thinking it, but they're all just separated. And you're just putting a highway for people to come on. It's like. You're like, hey, you think like, I think. Come on. And that's what's cool about, uh, mind. Or we are. Mind is, uh, kind of just started as, like, an accident, and it. It just started Taking off, people started adding the thought bubble in the thousands and we're like, oh man, people want this and they want to talk about it and it was just giving them an excuse and a platform.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm always encouraged, honestly, despite uh, man, I feel like some of these comment boards on news sites and, and everywhere else are just like the dregs of humanity. Sometimes it just like feels so negative and. But I'm always like pleasantly surprised when someone does decide to open up about whatever it is that they've been kind of wrestling with and kind of the, the inverse of that, right? The goodwill and the uh, cheering on from the sidelines of people and like how they're kind of met with uh, a warm embrace, uh, virtually. So it's, it's always heartening as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: Cool. So, man, you've been, you've lived a couple of lifetimes in a pretty short amount of time, uh, going, being an entrepreneur and being kind of in a way like obviously it's crazy to me. I was sitting down with my 11 year old son the other day and he was, his mind was blown. We were looking at all the different websites by traffic And I think YouTube is number two right now. And he was just like, who owns YouTube? And when I told him Google, he was, his mind was blown. He's like, Google owns YouTube too. Um, and so like just, it's crazy to think about. I remember when Google acquired YouTube, right. And I remember even when YouTube came out and you know, the crazy just from like a. Take a step back and look at how we as humans exchange information, how we absorb. Um, if you think about the pedagogy of kind of learning how much video has come into our lives and that's happened obviously with the rise of everything from like just infrastructure and smartphones and things like that, the ability, I mean, I think we all remember like how painful it was to actually watch a YouTube video on a mobile device. Even like I don't know, ten years ago.

Speaker C: Uh. Oh yeah.

Speaker B: And so with the rise of more bandwidth, uh, with faster processors, with better content, with actual professional like influencers and like videos are really, really good today. But um, it's been a while to kind of, and you kind of came into that at a really interesting time where it was like you could probably count on your hand back when you started the number of truly like, I don't know, influencer slash viral videos, slash whatever. And now it's like boomed and it's crazy to think that because it's only been like five years, but it's like this massive. It's not even a cottage industry anymore. It's like a massive stable of the gdp. Um, that's kind of happening. And so you were kind of like what I would actually perceive as a little bit of like a pioneer in that space. Then you spent time at, like, in E commerce, being mentored by some really smart people, um, and now into kind of a disruptive marketplace, uh, for property, basically. Tell us a little bit how your kind of vision, slash take on E commerce as evolved throughout all those lifetimes, so to speak.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's cool. Uh, you've got the YouTube era, like, you mentioned, where Dollar Shave Club, um, I can't remember the name, but that weird cleaning company, like you could scrape your tongue

Speaker A: purple.

Speaker C: Uh, um, and I got the opportunity to alert. Alex MacArthur, to me is like the pioneer, one of the pioneers of the YouTube age because he came out with all those videos with purple and, and flipped a boring industry on its head and made the mattress exciting all of a sudden, and then did a D2C model. Instead of having stores at, uh, storefronts at every Corner, start with D2C and then ultimately end up where you want to, which is retail. Um, like, build your audience, build that revenue model, um, which I think a lot of people are now emulating and is a smart way to go. Um, but, wow, that got off track. But, um, that age of YouTube where you could take a brand and blow it up on YouTube, um, not even just paid more organically, and then if you mix the organic with the paid, the growth was just insane. Um, and now I think we're seeing some oversaturation and some higher CPM costs on YouTube. Um, and, uh, when I was working at Kizik, I was like, dude, Alex, you know how, like, you, like, were part of that golden age of YouTube? Like when, uh, I was at Kizik, I was like, now, now it's the golden age of TikTok. And I remember it was like a week after I said that to, to the team there. I spent an hour, um, making a TikTok, um, on my iPhone with my wife about Kizzix. Um, and it had a million organic views like that night.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Um, and it's still one of the most engaged videos on their, on their page. But it's like, it was free and it took an hour. So what the cool shift is, is like, you don't have to dress up somebody like a Sasquatch. Ultimately you need to get there. But what's so cool about the TikTok age that we're now in is that, um, and it's already starting to get saturated, but still some opportunity there is that if you've got an iPhone and a cool value prop, you can make your product blow up.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, and it's, it's so disruptive. Right? Like I was reading an article today, um, beyond Mark Zuckerberg selling his $30 million, you know, estate in, well, estate, we had a quarter acre in San Francisco. It's kind of wild. Um, but just how disruptive, you know, Met is going to announce their earnings today, or maybe they already have at this point. But, um, but man, so disruptive. And there's all this, this controversy around, you know, Instagram trying to now replicate stealing the pages out of Snap, then now trying to steal the pages out of TikTok. And it is kind of crazy, but it's, it's got to be, you know, a little unnerving, um, as you sit back and kind of look at this. And I've long thought about that. I mean, I sit on a lot of panels, et cetera, on the future of E commerce, etc, and everyone's always like, what's going to happen with Walmart and Amazon and are they going to steal share? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like this Amazon will not be disrupted by traditional players. Amazon might be disrupted by non traditional players. And I'm looking TikTok squarely in the face because if you look at social commerce in Asia, it's massive and it's like integrated into the fabric of everything. And social commerce has had its fits and starts, um, in the US and it's just like never truly kind of caught on, but I think it will eventually. It's just like an inevitability. Um, and TikTok, I think, already does more than a billion dollars of GMV or gross merchandise value through their platform. So it is a really, to your point, a crazy kind of age that's that. And very disruptive. And also tons of opportunity and tons of, you know, money to be made through that.

Speaker C: And you can send lots of traffic to an Amazon store. Like, man, you see so many people posting like, hey, link in bio. And it's an Amazon link, um, both organic and paid and brand partnerships and influencer marketing. It's, it's cool. The people that caught on quick, they caught on. And um, and the people that get the rhythm and the voice and the inside joke that is TikTok. What, what blew my mind. And if you want to blow your son's mind even more. You probably know this, but TikTok beat out Google, um, in most visited site. And now, now TikTok's rolling out TikTok SEO, which I think is going to be huge. Um, it's, it's crazy to see the platform mature really quickly.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker C: But it's so great, right?

Speaker B: Like, it's, um, I mean, if you've got, I've got teenagers, I've got smaller kids and it's, it's really wild. I mean, none of them even have TikTok, but doesn't even matter, right? Like, it's, they, they can text it to each other and it's just like it, it is kind of the center of gravity of that social universe today. Um, and also pretty wild too. Like, like I said, like, from a learning standpoint, anytime I need to fix my motorcycle, I go to YouTube, right? Anytime I need to. Like everything from like building a trampoline to like just learning how to code, um, it's amazing how much video has influenced the way that we communicate, interact, learn, um, et cetera, et cetera. It's just, it's, it's honestly fascinating.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: So how do you kind of think about innovation? I mean, you're an innovative guy. I think you've had like a really fun kind of trajectory. Maybe a couple of questions on that front, like, what are some of the innovations you feel most proud of as you kind of look back at your career thus far and some of the things you're currently doing?

Speaker C: Um, I think, I think one thing I've been experimenting with lately that, you know, remains to be seen if it, if it works or not. But, um, I've been involving. It's not a new concept by any means, but I think a lot of people look at influencer marketing and they think, oh, uh, these are staggering costs. Um, like you can get quoted 100 grand for a one minute video and they'll leave it on their page for a couple of days. I'm not, I'm not over exaggerating. Um, and so one thing I've done is you can work with influencers, but you just have to be interesting, like offer them something interesting. Um, like London yesterday, we dressed him up like an alien. We put Uranus on his pants and a juicy couture and we said, hey, like, feel free to make any content you want with this content. Um, and he was such a good dude about it. Um, but going through a talent agency and hiring them that way was Much cheaper than if I called London and said, like, hey, uh, I want to, like, what are your regular rates to make? Make me a video. So, like, if you'd make, if you make an exciting situation, um, for these content creators, they're always looking for good content. Um, I think you'd be surprised at what you can, what you can figure out and what content you can create. Yeah, I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but, like, that's. I try to be innovative as a creative, um, director, since I'm not necessarily an inventor yet or anything like that.

Speaker B: And what do you feel like? I guess, like, the question I probably should have asked even before that one is like, how do you think about innovation? Like, how do you try to cultivate it in your own life as well as in life, your team, you are the creative director. There's a lot of innovation to be had there. How do you even think about it? I mean, it's somewhat of an overused word, to be honest, and feels a little trite and hollow. But, um, but what does it mean to you?

Speaker C: Uh, I think the biggest thing for innovation, I think the biggest squasher of innovation is the desire for perfection. Like, can't launch this product, I can't post this video, I can't start this company until it's perfect. I, um, need to do it. Like, look, market research is amazing, running surveys is amazing. But like, you can, you can survey your way out of not doing anything. Um, and so innovation is often squashed by the desire for perfection. So done is better than perfect. Post the video, get it out there. Like, you can always pivot. Um, innovation doesn't, I think, start until you're willing to fly the airplane while you're building it, essentially.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think it, it's interesting because that sentiment kind of ties back in a way to the mental health challenges that I think a lot of people face, especially in this day and age of social media, etc, of, uh, everything looks dialed, everything looks perfect, everyone looks like they're having fun, everyone's winning, everyone's crushing, every entrepreneur is exiting. Like, it's just the kind of fear or anxiety that comes with showing up in a way that's broken or in a way that's not baked, or in a way that's honestly even failure, um, and not contrived failure, but truly is just like, I have no idea what the hell I'm doing, um, is pretty powerful. And the ability to kind of have social permission to do that, um, both at a Corporate level as well as an individual level. Um, is, is pretty interesting. And I think you're absolutely right.

Speaker C: And people, people are just like, starving for authenticity because of the polished content that's been put out. And our brains are almost, um. I think as a society we've gained herd immunity to professional content. Like, we see a polished commercial and we're like. And polished. Polished commercials have a time and a place. Um, like, we put it where it belongs, but, um, you can be putting out authentic content. Um, that's what's awesome about TikTok is it's like this is on an iPhone. This is someone who's talking like I talk.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: They say ums and buts and they're. It's like there's just a wall behind them while they're talking to me about this. There's something about that, like meeting the audience at eye level that has, um, a greater impact. And that's what's really cool about the TikTok age to me. And people are just thirsty for it and, and brands need to be approachable and it needs to feel like humans talking to. To their audience, not a brand talking to their audience.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I want to go back to your career journey a little bit, and then I want to touch on family for a minute too. So, uh, we're going to try to cover a little bit more ground here in the Next, you know, 10 minutes or whatever, but, you know, you were kind of doing your own thing and I would love maybe just stop there for a second. What were some of the big, valuable lessons you feel like you learned in starting your own thing and doing incredibly hard, Incredibly hard to please people. Expectations are very hard to manage in that world. Um, running a company, hiring people, payroll, all that sort of stuff. I don't know how old you were when you were doing this, but, like, you're a pretty young guy. What was it like? What were some of the big, like, learnings you've had about yourself and about just that. Again, that master's degree.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, I think, um, knowing thyself, there was an investor I heard speak a few months ago, and he's like, before you start a business, know thyself. Um, because even though you're going to want to try to do it all, um, there's so much that you can outsource. I mean, geez, pattern is such a great example of that. It's like, if you're not good at X, Y or Z, it's like, we'll handle that for you. And I wish I would have offloaded more. Um, I wish I would have relied on people more to just take the wheel and do what they're good at and. And hired people that, um, Their. Their strengths complimented my weaknesses and vice versa. Um. Um. But I think I wanted to just hire people that are a good time. Um. Um. It's that creative in me that's like, I just want to. I just want to be with people that love to talk as much as I do. And then I think there was a lot of, like, just talking ourselves death. Um. Um. But, uh. And another big lesson is, like, even though someone's your buddy, get a contract with them. Like, always get an agreement in place. Yeah. So that you can refer back to it. Um, then get an agreement, and then you can trust that person wholeheartedly.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And it's crazy, right? Like, it's, um. This is kind of a dumb example, but I was just in Italy with my wife, and we were ordering dinner, and she literally speaks Italian, but. But she orders something, and I, like, speak broken Italian. But she was, like, ordering the salad and was like, yeah, you know, it was like a. It was like, not a Caesar salad. It had, like, anchovies. And I'm like, it was. You know, and. And she's like, yeah, we just make, like, a Caesar salad and not put anchovies in. And the lady's like, sure. And I'm like, you're definitely not getting a Caesar salad. Like, there's not. There's not a Caesar salad on the menu. Like, despite whatever you want that you think is going to be coming your way, because you said it, you are gonna get, like, the salad that's on the menu, maybe with or without anchovies. And sure enough comes back, like, it's just like, the salad.

Speaker C: And so without anchovies. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: So it's like. Well, you know, I think despite our best efforts, you know, you kind of want. Especially in human relationships, like, you want to see, um, what you want to see in. In some ways, and. And sometimes it just doesn't net out. So I think that's really valuable advice. Just get it in writing. Be able to refer back to. It's an anchor. Uh, whatever conversation you had, whatever agreement you had was at a point in time and was probably marred by some of this, like I said, aspirational communication of, uh, uh, expecting one thing or saying one thing. And I often say to my kids, don't listen to what I say. Listen to what I mean. Um, which infuriates I like that.

Speaker C: I Like that. It'll infuriate them now, but later they'll be saying it to their kids.

Speaker B: That's the curse of the dad. Comments, right? Absolutely.

Speaker C: I said my daughter asked. My daughter's in like the why phase. Why? Why?

Speaker B: But why?

Speaker C: And I said, I. Yesterday I looked at her and I was like, I thought I'd never say this, but I was like, because,

Speaker B: dang

Speaker C: it, like, I am a monster. I've become a monster. But because. Just because. Just because.

Speaker B: Uh, well, speaking of the family, I was watching one of your TikTok videos the other night with my wife and, uh, talk to us about your daughter. It would. The video, if you, you want to go and look up Levi on, um, Tick tock. The video was. And I've seen multiple videos like this and they like, break my heart slash make me cry slash make me jump for joy every time. But it was your daughter hearing your voices for the first time. Tell us a little bit more about that and what that journey has been like as a parent.

Speaker C: Yeah, my daughter Gigi, she's the one. She's about to be one years old. She was, um, I think she was around six months old at the time of the video. Um, and we were at the doctor. She is, um, deaf in her left ear. Um, she could probably hear like a train horn if it was right in front of her. That's about it. Her right ear, she can make up that you're talking, um, but she can't hear most syllables. So she needs a hearing aid in her right ear, um, and she'll get a cochlear implant surgery done, um, within the month, um, on the left ear. So she'll do cochlear implant and then a, ah, hearing, uh, aid on her right ear. And, um, we're also learning sign language because you can't always have your hearing aids in. Anyway, we went to go get her hearing aids, um, and I remember we were at the doctor's office and she's like, we were about to film it and the doctor was like, you know, don't expect anything. A lot of these families expect like these YouTube moments. And we're like, okay, well, we'll just film it anyway. Sure. And man, she, they put those hearing aids in. She was freaking out and crying. And then we started saying hi. Hi. And every, you probably saw every emotion that she went. She was like, yeah, happy, confused. Wanted to make sure she heard the us. Right. But hearing our voices clearly for the, for the very first time is a beautiful moment. Uh, one I'll Never ever, ever, ever forget.

Speaker B: Well, I just uh, I think you had posted it with, with music underneath and then I think there I, I saw comments that were like, can you take the music off? So you posted it again without it. Um, and I think that was an improvement. But it was just like kudos to you for kind of like, you know, listening to that feedback, adjusting a little bit and I think it ended up at a really great spot. It was powerful.

Speaker C: Yeah, it, it got picked up by a lot of news stations. It was on the Today show. But over Overall between my LinkedIn, TikTok, it's, it's got like 10 million views. It's insane.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's amazing. Um, maybe one random, I don't know how many like other, whatever I call like social influencers you hang out with. Um, but we have one that's whatever in our neighborhood, etc. And um, I was talking to a buddy the other day and he's like, I feel like I can't even hang out with him anymore though because I feel like I never know if I'm on the air. I feel like everything's, I feel like, you know, like I can never just have a conversation, oh, let me grab the camera real quick or let me do this. He's like, it never turns off. And I, I just wonder again, I don't run in those circles really that often, but it's like, do you ever experience that? And is there a, uh, is there ever like a safe time that you dedicate to like this is just us. It truly is just the authentic. I'm not going to pull anything out, I'm not going to use it as a bit. Or is it kind of hard to turn that off?

Speaker C: Um, I think being a creative director, an in house creative director, which I love, um, I get more of a luxury of like being able to be more methodical because I'm not, I'm not always sharing about my life. Yeah, I was talking to London yesterday. He's the one, he's got 9 million on TikTok. Um, he's, he went from a 12 hour shoot today to like a, he's doing a three day shoot over the next three days. Um, and I was like, dude, how do you shut your brain off? And he's like, I just, I have to take vacations and just say to myself, I am not going to film anything. I'm just gonna sit back and shut it all down. And I was like, do you ever, like, when you're out and about, you're like, oh, this could be a viral moment. So I need to. Quick, quick, quick. And he's like, he just basically said, you got to choose those moments and just learn to let some of them slip, essentially. And that's. That's one thing I found too, is like, you just have to be like, ah, you know, I'm just gonna let it slip. Did you see that video of that guy that was holding the beer?

Speaker B: I was just gonna mention it.

Speaker A: It was.

Speaker B: It's fascinating, right?

Speaker C: Like, it's amazing. Everyone's filming the moment and he's just got a beer and he's enjoying it.

Speaker B: And then that turned.

Speaker C: Obviously the irony is that it turned into this viral sensation. But, uh, yeah, it's. Sometimes it's like, you know, I'm gonna let this one slip. I. I think all the time in my camera roll, I'm going back through photos and I'm like, I. I haven't. I haven't looked at these for forever. Or like, sometimes I'll be filming a moment and I'm like, I don't think I'm gonna go back and watch this, but for some reason I feel like I have to film it. Like, we should. We should all be that guy holding the beer. Just watching more often.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Well, that is actually the cool thing about everything from machine learning to the cloud to whatever is. You know, I get these notifications whether it's on my iPhone from the photos app or from Amazon or, I mean, all my stuff stored wherever. Um, but it's just so. It's cool because it does surface these memories from years ago that you're just like, that was wild.

Speaker C: That was just so cool.

Speaker B: And, um, it's hard, I think that's just to thread this back through the mental health. I think that is the hardest part about so much of this is if you've ever been in that spot where you consider taking your own life or ejecting or bailing or whatever it is that you want to think through to fast forward five, 10 years, whatever it is, and look back and see truly what you would have missed, um, is very, very sobering and, and also, like, heartening.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: It's encouraging because things do get better and relationships improve and. Or they don't. Right. Like, things end, things begin. And I think back to the conversation of innovation. Um, that ability to kind of like disrupt yourself and, and the ability to let things die and let things be born again. Um, yeah, I think in his commencement address was talking a lot like, the, the best part of life is that people buy and that new life comes in. Because if the same old things stuck around, um, you wouldn't get the good stuff. Right?

Speaker C: So it's, it's stuff. That's what, um, when I was. I don't know if this is appropriate for a podcast, but I, When I was about to take my life, I, um, I just thought of. Gigi was, um, still in the womb. Um, my wife was pregnant with Gigi, hadn't even met her yet. Um, but I had that connection with my 3 year old daughter and I just thought, um, I just pictured her asking where her dad was. Where's my best friend that I hang out with every day and I love so much and I call out for him in the middle of the night, where is he? Where is. Like, I don't understand. I could not bear my daughter having the feeling of where the heck did that guy go? Leaving that gaping hole in her life and then meeting Gigi and all of the beautiful moments that have come from there. And it's crazy to look back and think the situations I was worried about then, ah, are just not, uh, worries now.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Things definitely change. And that's so beautiful. And I, I'm glad you're around, man. I really am. Um, I'm glad you made that decision to tough it out and stick it out. And I think the world is better and your daughter is definitely better, your family's better and you're better because of it. So I think that's just fantastic.

Speaker C: For sure. Look, people don't often talk about mental hope and give it that salt of hope at the top. It's like, look, things are tough, but there is hope.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard to see that hope when you're in the thick of it. When you're in the darkness, it's hard to even any light you see, it just. That tunnel just feels so far away. So, um, I get it. It's crazy. Well, one of the questions that I always ask, um, guests of the podcast before we wrap is, um, and I always love listening to responses too, is what do you feel like is one leadership principle that you've really leaned on or that has really contributed to your success?

Speaker C: Uh, don't be a dick.

Speaker B: That's a good one. I've heard that one yet. Tell me more about it though.

Speaker C: Yeah, nobody likes to get yelled at. I've always, always caught more flies with honey than vinegar. Learning how to make a point without making an enemy. Um, like, it's better that, like, the thing doesn't get done as well or that people are happy, um, than to live in a stressful environment. And like I said, those situations come and go. It's like nobody wants to work with a dick. Nobody wants to be a dick. Dicks don't like being dicks. You're gonna have to have the bleep button ready for me. But, uh, it's just nobody likes ego. And innovation and ideas are not born in egotistical environments. Yeah, the best idea wins no matter who it comes from. I love that about, uh, about KIZIK and Alex MacArthur is like, I don't care if the intern comes up with the idea. If it's a good idea, freaking do it. And the intern should feel like they have. That they have friends that they can talk to and say those ideas.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I love that kind of democratization of ideas. And I also, like, I'm a pretty diplomatic person. Right. Like I'm a middle child. And, and so I'd like to hear all like, viewpoints, etc. I think in terms of, you know, absolutely like a no dick policy, but also like, how do you hold people accountable? How do you. Because sometimes the past is like, uh, like in order to not be confrontational or not to be a dick, I'm just like not going to say anything. And how do you kind of toe that line, but then also try to hold people to a standard. And this applies, I would say, in the family and with your kids and as, uh, much as apply in the workspace. And I think that's a, that's a lesson that I continue to try to learn is I really feel passionately in my role of helping create an environment, both I guess, in my family as well as in is in work of like, how do I help you do your very best work of your career? And in order for you to do your very best work, I actually have to hold you to your best self and to try to get you to show up and be passionate. And that's really where best work kind of gets unveiled, is in that spirit of passion. But, um, I think that's always tricky because, um, at some level I don't know if it requires you to be a dick, but it does require you to be, have, have boundaries. And so again, just trying to learn and work through that and champion people to do their best work, even if it's not a pattern. Honestly, I'm also a fan of that, of like, if you need to move on and go somewhere else to do your best work, let me help you. Let me give you intros. Let me, let me give you recommendations because, man, I just like a theme of this podcast is like, life is way too short to, uh, be doing either not doing your best work and not showing up, uh, or to be doing work that, uh, you know, you could be doing something better somewhere else.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. Uh, Dalton is, uh, Dalton Bruff is the recruiter over at Neighborhood. Uh, I was having a tough day with someone at neighbor the other day and I pulled him aside and I was like, bro, about to punch somebody in the face. I was about to be a dick, probably was already a dick. And he's like, look, look, look, listen, I don't know if you've read the book Radical Candor. Um, Dalton explained it to me a way that I think I'm good to go. I don't need to read it, thankfully. But that Radical Candor lives in that zone of like, on one end there's ruinous empathy, which is not. And just being like, okay, I'm just not going to say anything. And it's, that doesn't help the situation. And then, uh, there's obnoxious. What is it? Obnoxious? Uh, um, aggression, which is, which is just for a lack of a better way of saying it, is just being a dick. It's like you're, you're taking the easy way out by just plowing through people and yelling at them. Is obnoxious aggression. Yeah, I lean towards the ruinous empathy all the time. Um, and radical candor is like, I'm going to crack this conversation wide open with no ego, and we're just going to have an open conversation about it. And I think part of Radical Candor is like, look, I might find that I was wrong when, when I, when we cracked this conversation open. Or you'll find that you're wrong and I'll show you in a really kind way and you're going to see it. So I think it's just, it's a two way street. Ruinous, uh, empathy is obviously, um, not saying anything. And then obnoxious, uh, aggression is like just like, okay, I'm just gonna tell this person that they're wrong and walk away.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Or say something like hurtful, unnecessarily hurtful. That doesn't actually help them improve. Um, yeah, anyway, yeah, I think that's, that's a great leadership principle. Uh, words to live by for sure. And, you know, we're all working on how to extract that and, and deliver the best ourselves. Right. And hold ourselves accountable as well as helping lift the other people around us to again, do their very best work here.

Speaker C: So totally awesome.

Speaker B: Uh, well, Levi, it's been an absolute pleasure to get to know you a little bit better and to learn about your experience has been fantastic. So I really appreciate you coming on the show today and look forward to having you come back again and join us sometime. Thanks, uh, everyone for listening to this show today and wanted to thank Levi Lindsay from Neighbor for coming on the show. If you have any recommendations on how to make this show better, feel free to drop them in the comments. Uh, give us a rating here and like and subscribe and all that good stuff and we will catch you on the next one. Thank you so much.