Episode 88: The Strategic Pause: Navigating Chaos and High-Stakes Leadership | Norman Leach

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Welcome everyone to Leadership and Cross Quarters Podcast, the interview series where leaders come to share their perspectives on different leadership topics. I'm Josh Selden and today's guest is Norman Leach. Norman Leach is an entrepreneur, author, strategist and leadership expert with decades of experience helping organizations navigate growth, innovation and transformation. As the founder and leader of multiple businesses and industry initiatives, he has worked across sectors including marketing, technology, defense, manufacturing and economic development. Norman is the author of 14 books, including his upcoming release the New Age of Marketing, AI Personalization and Human Connection, which explores how leadership, technology and human centered strategy are reshaping the future of business. His work focuses on practical leadership, strategic thinking, organizational growth, and building meaningful connections in an increasingly digital world. He is also actively involved in advancing Canada's innovation and defence sectors through the Western Canada Defence Industries association, which he helps connect industry leaders, government and global opportunities. Known for his direct insights, future focused thinking and engaging storytelling style, Norman brings a unique perspective on leadership in times of rapid change, combining real world business experience with a deep understanding of emerging trends in AI, marketing and organizational culture. So welcome Norman.

Speaker B: Thank you very much. Why there's no time left for the show.

Speaker A: Uh, you never realize all the things that you get done and everything that you're involved in until you read something like that and you're like, wow, there's a lot there.

Speaker B: My grandfather was a Ukrainian immigrant and came to Canada and I always remember him telling us as kids that get all the education you can, get all the experience you can because it's the only two things the government can't take from you. And I think I just took it a little overboard. I follow my grandfather's advice a little too literally.

Speaker A: So anyway, hey, no worries there. It is very impressive, everything you've done. And I've written one book and that was a lot. So to hear 14 books, that is very impressive.

Speaker B: Thank you. It's a hobby that turned into a business that turned into a passion. So yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker A: It's great to hear. So just for everybody who's listening in, our episode will center around navigating chaos and uncertainty, which I think is awesome because the day that we live in today, I feel like a lot of times it's nothing but chaos and uncertainty. So everybody, I'm sure will be listening at the edge of their seat with everything you have to share today.

Speaker B: Oh, thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, so we'll jump right in and I'd love to just start us off by going through when an organization experiences this chaos and uncertainty and everybody's in this fight or flight mode. What is the most common tactical technical mistake a leader makes to try to reestablish control out of desperation? Instead of stopping and thinking through the

Speaker B: process, that's the mistake. It's operating instantly. Rather knee jerk reactions rather than stopping and saying, okay, we got here, now how are we going to get out of it? And if there's something I think I bring to the table, it's that we just stop in the middle and say, let's think about where we're going. Just because that's what got us here. We don't have to do the same thing. Or maybe the solution is not the same thing at all. We have to look somewhere else. Too many people think that as a leader they have to have an instantaneous answer, and most leaders don't. Most leaders take that moment to reflect. Even if your building is burning down, you've got to think, is that the right exit to take? Or do we need to go someplace safer and direct your people to that? In the most emergent situation, you still need that pause. If it's a business thing, you typically have, uh, hours or even a day or two to get yourself out of the mess that you're in. And that involves stopping and thinking and considering and then moving forward confidently. The other mistake people make is that they try something, it doesn't work instantaneously, so they try to change again. The people you're leading lose all trust when you do that. So it's symbiotic. If you don't think you're going to make the wrong decision, then that just increases the chaos. Stop and think, make your decision, and then move on and stick to it. Uh, people will follow you if you do. If you're all over the place, they aren't following.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think your point about sticking to it is so important because I see the same thing. And to be fair, I also have my experience in manufacturing. There are things, mostly m mechanical things, that are like a light switch. You make a change, it either works or it doesn't. But when it comes to culture, when it comes to organization and chaos like that, thinking things will instantaneously change is a pipe dream. And so often, like you said, they make a change, it doesn't work in the next five minutes and so they change again. And change isn't bad because you see the other side of it where you've got people who will never change. They'll never pivot or they'll never make a decision because they're afraid of the outcome and they're afraid to do that change. But this is the other end of the spectrum where you make a change, you think it should be immediate, and when it's not, you just continue changing. And I've seen exactly what you said. You just start losing that trust with the team.

Speaker B: Yeah, and you're absolutely right. I've made my living on managing change, so I'm not against change. But you need to stop and make sure you're doing the right thing at that moment. And that's hard for a lot of people, especially in North America. We are conditioned to believe that leaders are the gung ho, charge out there, do everything right now, that's what it's supposed to be. And if you look at the Asian markets or Asian countries, even Latin American countries, they believe there's time to make these decisions, that you slow down. Now, slowing down is relative. It may be half an hour. I've, uh, got to make a decision because this is going to happen in half an hour. Then use that half an hour well, don't panic. Think about it. Figure out what's the best solution under the circumstances. And so I'll expand that circle. Then it's about having great sources of information available to you. I take great pride that the people that work for me are wide open to coming and telling me I'm not doing it the right way. Now, I may still go ahead because I see a different picture than they do, but they have no fear of coming to me and saying, are you sure this doesn't feel right? And it's amazing how many times that changes your calculus. It changes when you hear from the guys on the ground or the women on the ground telling you, yeah, you don't want to do this because this will happen. And you have to be willing to accept that. So this lone wolf leadership idea, I've been, uh, avoiding it all my life because I just do not believe we're lone wolves. Even wolves run in a pack.

Speaker A: I completely agree with you, and I think everything you just said brings up a couple different thoughts. Obviously, the thought of building that safe culture is extremely important because it's one thing to be part of that pack and be the leader of the pack, but if you haven't created an environment where the pack feels comfortable enough coming to you and asking those questions, then we are failing as leaders. But at the same time, to encourage that pause that you're talking about, that pause. And I'm going to go and think through this for those 30 minutes. A lot of times if we can't make that call ourselves if we have a safe environment. You've now got those other people asking those questions. Before we make that knee jerk reaction, they'll say, maybe we should do this. Are you sure that's the right direction to go? And then that allows us, which I think a lot of people don't fully take to heart. Because especially in chaos, we're so tunnel visioned in what's going on. We don't think holistically, we think we're slowing down. We're going to take an extra 30 minutes. I don't have 30 minutes to take. But when we do a knee jerk reaction and it doesn't work because we haven't thought through it, I'm going to go probably waste more than 30 minutes a day from now. And so overall, I've slowed down the whole process. Instead of just taking this tiny time in the beginning.

Speaker B: Uh, exactly. And we have conditioned people to think that North Americans hate silence. We hate that moment of pause. I always chuckle when I make this point to people. And they'll say, what do you mean? I say, if I go to church and I'm kneeling and I'm waiting the priest to start the sermon, if he doesn't start it instantaneously, people start rustling papers. They start whispering to each other. Because we feel we have to fill, Silas, that it has no value. You. It really does. Silence has a value if you're using it to move yourself forward. If you're thinking ahead, it makes sense to have that pause. Maybe it comes partly from the fact that in my volunteer life, I'm an emt, I'm an emergency medical tech. And we are taught when you roll up on an accident scene, you know there's people injured, you know there's people that need your help, but you don't know if there's leaking gas, you don't know what is happening. So we are trained to stop the vehicle 10 yards away, 50 yards away, depending on the circumstance. And we have a pair of binoculars that sits on the dash, and we use those binoculars to review the scene before we jump out of the truck and run in. Because you do that, you're putting yourself at huge risk. And it amazes me how many times I see people not taking that pause. Fire crews are the same thing. High performance teams take that moment. Fire truck rolls up on a fire, they observe the scene, the guys get out. Uh, the chief has a meeting at the front of the truck. That might be a minute and a half long, but did anybody see something? We should know about. And the newest person on the crew is expected to participate equally, they are expected to speak up because if they saw that 50 pound propane tank and no one else did, you want to know about that as the fire chief before you run in. So whether they're the newest recruit or they're the 30 year person, their opinions are valid because they're bringing you more information. Translate that to business. Both first responder cases to business. It's exactly the same thing. You may not have actual lives at risk, but we have millions of dollars and ultimately those people's employment and thus their families lives in our hands. We screw up, we lay off 10 people. They come from a family of four. That's 40 people we've impacted dramatically because we didn't take 30 minutes, Josh, to make a good decision.

Speaker A: And it's any kind of impact, we can impact way more people's lives if the quality of our product slips. We can impact the person's life if we make a call that puts somebody in unsafe position like the EMTs and the firemen and women. And so having that pause is so important, as you're saying. And I wonder if some of it's tied to a lot of leaders these days with, and I don't know if we want to call it egos or just assumptions of what a leader should be, but so many leaders think I am supposed to have the answer. And I think it goes back to the lone wolf thought process that you have is I'm in this position because I should have all the answers and if I have to take a pause, it's going to come across that I don't have all the answers and they're worried about how they're viewed and where. I think you said it earlier, it's when we don't take that pause, when we do make the wrong calls, when we do have the knee jerk reactions, we're most of the time viewed worse than if we were to stop and get everybody's opinion in the front end of it.

Speaker B: One of the challenges we have in North America is the average senior leadership person in business has about a three year tenure. They exist for about three years. Are there obvious examples that are not true? There are, but it's three years. So if I come in on the board of directors and I say, josh, we need to see results in three years, the clock is ticking because you know, you're going, you're leaving. And typically the easiest way to cut costs, lay off staff. Staff is the most expensive component of most businesses. So go in and lay off the whole department. Do that, you're going to save some money, you're going to make an instantaneous change, but you're getting rid of corporate history, you're getting rid of corporate capability. That's all leaving. When you do that, for you to leave in three years. I always point out that Sony, the Japanese company, has a 200 year business plan. So they know that in 200 years they will be the leader in corporate and commercial electronics, etc. And everything works to that. So if I come to Josh and say I need a new project and you're gone in three years, you want something you can execute in three years. If you are working for Sony and you go in and you say, I probably won't be here to see it, but this product is going to take 10 years to develop. The Sony chiefs shrug their shoulders and go against a 200 year plan. 10 years is short. It's easy. So we kill innovation, we kill improvements because we put it on an artificial time clock. This hourglass is turned over and it started. Yeah, and I don't know how you get people to change that per se because it's a cultural thing. As you said right off the beginning. You're not changing that in a company because the crisis happened today and we have to solve it tomorrow. It's a fix the crisis, then put in a better culture that people know they're going to be there for a long time and they're going to be there doing good things for a long time. The effects are dramatic.

Speaker A: I think you're bringing up a good point and I think it's something a lot of people struggle with today. How do you have that forward focused mentality and thought process for something like the Sony for the 200 year plan when there's chaos and uncertainty today, and that's where I see a lot of people trip up, is we have a plan, we've aligned on a plan, we have a growth strategy. It's going to take three years, five years, 200 years, whatever it is. But when the whirlwind starts today, I get sucked up into today's whirlwind of chaos and I don't focus on the future.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think part of that in that introduction you read, I take great pleasure in being known what's called a polymath, that is, I have an interest in more than one thing. If you are absolutely focused on your business and producing widgets by Friday to fill the order on Friday, chaos is going to catch you off guard. It's going to smack you in the back of the head. My view is I don't know how many clients I've worked with, and they'll tell me, I turned off the news because it's all bad news. So I don't watch the news anymore. And I'm going, then how do you know what the interest rates are going to be? Then how do you know what's happening in your client's country? If there's a revolution in, say, Venezuela, how do you know what's going to impact on your business? I'll tell when the orders come in. Way too late. I'll fill the air in my tire when it goes thump, thump the highway. You had to look at your tire, notice it was losing air, test it by checking the air pressure, and if it's low, get to a gas station, fill that tire so that you can continue with your journey. It's exactly the same thing with business. If you don't see the warning signs early, Josh, you're going to get hit by chaos every time. My job is often to sort it, uh, out once it's happened. But I don't pat my clients on the back and say, good job. You waited till you needed me. I fix it. And then tell them, here's what you need to do so you never need me again. This is what you have to put in place. Some don't. Some just immediately fall back to the bad habits, and they shouldn't. I have a sign up and I often send an email out to my clients and say, doing new things is easy. It's letting go of the old that's really difficult. And so we all say AI. But then we continue to do the processes the same way we did in 1980. We don't say, how are we adjusting to that? We know, I think academically, every business leader knows AI is going to affect their business. Ask them how. They have no idea. They're just saying, we know it will. Okay, but if you don't know the positive and the negative, then how do you lay out a plan? Uh, use the example of that, Josh, I'm going to give you a free vacation. You get to go on a free vacation. I'll pay for it all.

Speaker A: Awesome.

Speaker B: But here's the plan. You get in your car and you drive five miles east. Stop, pull over, call me, and I'll tell you what the next five miles looks like, and do that for your whole vacation. How pleasant is that vacation going to be?

Speaker A: Not very pleasant.

Speaker B: Not very pleasant. You don't know what to do, pack. You don't know where you're going, you don't put gas in the car, you don't know what food to eat or to take with you. Or are you going on a camping trip? Are you going to a five star hotel? You don't know. Sadly, many people run their business the same way. I'll make the decision when it comes up. I'll wait at five miles and I'll make that if I told you, and by the way, I'm taking back the offer now, as you'll take my offer. But if I told you you're going to Hawaii in October, you're staying at a five star hotel, you're leaving on this date, you're coming back on that date, and we will cover your food costs for you, can you now plan a great vacation? Yeah, sure. Because you can tell your family what's coming up, you know, what clothes to pack, et cetera. So too few businesses look down the road, they're just looking at that next five miles.

Speaker A: And then like you said, they don't build the systems and the standards and the processes to make sure that they have their version of that low tire pressure warning light that lets you know something's coming. And so it's so important for them to do that. Because if not, your example is exactly right. If I'm only driving five miles, if something happens in those five miles, I also have no time to react. It's going to offset my entire plan if I know I'm going to Hawaii and my flight gets delayed, but I know my entire process. I have so many different vectors that I can go to get my trip back on track, which without it being completely derailed.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I have, um, my own business. In the morning, I look and I have a dashboard with five indicators on it. They give me the feel for how my business is doing. They tell me where I might see a problem and I can look at that dial and go, oh, wait, there's something wrong. Stuff's not coming in the door the way it should, or sales are down or whatever, that we can adjust to it, as opposed to saying, oh my goodness, it's been two weeks since we've had a sale. Now what do we do? I see that 10 days earlier I knew it was coming and we had to fix it. And does it work 100%? Of course not. Nothing does. But it lets me sleep better at night, knowing in the morning I'll know exactly what happened to my business.

Speaker A: And I think those dashboards are so important if used the right way. Because a lot of these businesses, in my opinion, that deal with these chaos and uncertainty have these dashboards that focus on output measures. And then when you're only focusing on the output measures, you get into the situation, you're talking where it's too late, it's already here. I have no way to change the trajectory of where everything's going. But if everything's in process measures, I can do exactly what you said. I'm not waiting 14 days to find out I have no sales. I'm looking at some of my other in process metrics that we have on day two to find out. I need to pivot and get things back on the road.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it needs to be those things that tell you I have five things. Maybe your business is six or four. Five is not a magic number. Knowing these were the five things I believed I needed to know about my business and that I could make those adjustments when I saw them coming off the rails, as it were. So this is what I want to leave companies with when I leave them is a way to not need me again, which is self defeating. But I take no pleasure in having a company call me a year later and say, we're right back in the same glue. Can you come back? Because it means they didn't absorb the lessons the first time.

Speaker A: And it's a little counterintuitive when you think of a consulting type business model, because a lot of times consultants are like, I want to go and consult and give you some opinions. Then you go put them in process and call me again later. You're not systemically fixing whatever you're put there for. You're giving them some band aids or some thoughts of what to go do in hopes that they call you back.

Speaker B: Hey, look, if my doctor told me I had a bad disease, I don't want him handing me a band aid. I want him to fix it so I don't have to come back. I may come back for something else. When I break my leg, I might come back for something else. But I don't want to come back for the same thing. I want my doctor to give me the cause and the cure for what I've got. I take it the same way.

Speaker A: Yep. And that's very admirable with, uh, what we see today. And I think you've touched on it a couple different times through this conversation. But when you're looking overall at chaos and uncertainty from the leadership position and you are the leader of this wolf pack that you have, how Important is communication from the top down during chaos and uncertainty, to make sure you keep the trust and everybody kind of rowing in the same direction during this time.

Speaker B: It's not just about communication. It's about honesty in that communication. I see people in the middle of a crisis sending out newsletters to the staff that are blowing smoke up their skirt. It's just, you can say everything's going fine, but they just have to look around their workplace and they know it isn't. So when you're in that mood, and I will tell you that when I come on site often, the staff are really concerned. I'm there to fire them all. Wow. That's my first job. Because he's our consultant. You're coming in, we're in trouble. You're gonna fire everybody. Yeah. And I get a commitment from senior management, and then I get a commitment that I go down and talk to the staff and I say, I know what you're thinking. And it's amazing how many sort of nod their heads.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I say, I'm promising not one of you is going. If we work together to fix this. If you're thinking that, stop. We need your help. We need your experience. And again, many leaders in North America feel that if they have that kind of conversation, they are somehow admitting weakness. I don't have the solution. Instantly, you need to go to your staff and talk to them. And I don't care whether it's the newest hire. Think of the fire truck. I don't care if it's the newest hire. I don't care if it's 30 year person. You have to say to them, you all are part of fixing this. And here's what's real. We have 90 days and the money runs out. You tell them, because I know people say, oh, they'll start looking for another job. Great. Your job is to look after your employees. If that's not with you, it's with somebody else. So if somebody wants to go look for another job during crisis, I will help them write their letter of reference because I want them to feel comfortable. They can go. And it's amazing how many times I've offered to do that. And the person comes back 24 hours later and says, I talked to my spouse, I talked to my family, I'm staying.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Um, but if you left them in the dark, they would have gone on to indeed looking for a new job. So it's not just about communication, which is really important. It's about an honesty and a frankness in that and a Willingness for the senior team to get, you know what if you're in a crisis, let's say financially, Josh, um, I'm going to tell you, park the Mercedes at home and bring your family car to work.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Because it's really hard to tell people this is important. But I'm going to continue to drive my Mercedes. I'm going to continue to go on my vacation to Florida. You're going to say, look, I want you folks to know this is important enough. My family and I have pushed off our vacation till next year when this is righted. You can't say it's a crisis, but I'm going to go visit Mickey in Orlando. We'll see you. You have to get your hands dirty. And that's often a challenge for senior leadership. They think somehow holding down the big desk and the big chair in the big office is what's important. People need to see you on the factory line and not in your Gucci's, but in your steel toe boots.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: I'm here to learn. If you don't know how to operate that machine in manufacturing, at least stand, uh, next to the welder, the millwright, and say, show me what do I need to know to help us get out of this crisis. And that's only going to happen if you're there in your work boots, not if you're there in your loafers saying, oh, I care, but as soon as I can get off this greasy floor, I'd be a lot happier.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. And you got to be there in the arena with everybody. And there are two things leaders don't realize when they don't have that honest communication that you're talking about. One of it is once you're open and honest with everybody and you bring them in to help with a solution, there are a heck of a lot more on board than if there's some random solution you're bringing to them. If they're coming up with it and it's my idea, I'm going to be backing my idea a heck of a lot stronger than if Norman comes to me and says, hey, I have this far out solution that may or may not work. I just need you to go do it. And the other thing they don't realize is that if you're not open and honest with somebody, I am going to start thinking about all of the bad possibilities that could be happening. If, huh, you don't tell me what's actually happening, I'm going to sit there and I'm Just going to be going over things in my mind, and if you think you're getting 100% out of me, you're not. You're not even close.

Speaker B: No, you're getting those people panicked and to move, and you just can't. So I'm a big believer in telling senior people, get off your high horse. Get out there. Be seen on the floor, be seen in the office. Let them know you're part of it. As they say, you're used to wearing designer suits. Leave them at home. When you get into the meeting, roll up your sleeves so they know you're actually present and you're actually there. And you cannot fake that. It's either you do it or you don't. If you think just, oh, Norman, give me a checklist of what I have to do to have credibility. We're lost already. They'll know. You need to know. This is how I connect with my people. And if you can't, then name somebody to take over the company for a while till we get out of the crisis. If you cannot bring yourself to do those things, then just say, we had a case here in Canada where a, uh, food manufacturer had listeria go through their plant. Listeria can be fatal.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it comes from. In their case, they found one machine had not been cleaned properly. The best thing the president did in a crisis that could have tanked 100-year-old business, a national business. The senior staff. The president stepped aside and said, I'm handing the control of the company over to our chief scientist, and we will not open until he tells us it's safe to do.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So now I know for a fact he didn't abandon his office. He didn't stop going to meetings. But every question from the media, every question from staff went to the chief scientist, not to him, because he knew he didn't carry the credibility to say, I understand the science of listeria. The chief science officer did. And they not only saved the company, actually came back stronger because people felt they had done the right thing. They have put safety ahead of profit. But, uh, how many companies was the president willing to say, I don't know enough to get us through this. I'm, um, going to name so and so to guide us in this tough time. And I can tell you, when they handed it over to the science officer because it made news, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head when the CEO took control back, because it just seemed natural. The scientists have said, we're safe. We've done all of These things, I'm taking back the business now. And people never questioned it. You know, they never said, what the hell, we're still scared. They said, no, you did the right thing, you stepped aside. You made business less important than safety. And so I really encourage companies to realize their brand is not the logo they stick on things. It's what people feel about their company. And if you lose that, you've lost your company.

Speaker A: That's right. We talk about data a lot, but feelings do impact a lot of our decisions, especially our consumers and our customers.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, especially if it comes to the safety of my family. If I'm buying, in this case, there were meat products. If I'm buying meat products and they have that logo on and I'm not sure, and there's another one, I will pay more for the other one because it's my family.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Why would I nickel and dime over the safety of my family? And the company that did it just took away all of those arguments.

Speaker A: That's an extremely impressive, and I'd say difficult in today's world decision to make, but huge props to that.

Speaker B: And this is only a five year old example. This is not distant 1980s stuff. This happened right about the time Covid was hitting.

Speaker A: Wow, that's extremely impressive and I want to thank you for sharing all of that. I want to remind everybody, this was Norman Leach. Uh, I'll have all of his information in the description of the podcast on the YouTube page and on all the podcast platforms that we have. You can, like, follow and subscribe to the podcast found on all the podcast platforms to my Instagram, YouTube and TikTok at leading quarters. And you can email me with any questions you might have for myself or for Norman. I can get you all in touch or any ideas you may have for future episodes or if you're interested in being on future episodes, leadencoursmail.com But Norman, I'll repeat what I said in the beginning of this. I feel like a lot of people live in chaos and uncertainty in today's world and I truly appreciate everything you brought today because I think, and I hope it's going to allow them to make their worlds a little bit easier and a little bit safer to get through. So thanks so much for doing that today.

Speaker B: Not a problem. And Josh, just so everybody knows, I'm an open Networker, um, on LinkedIn, if they invite me to join them, I will accept invitations from people I don't know yet.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: All right, thanks, Josh. Talk to you soon. Mhm. Sam.