274. Building Matriarchal Businesses with Ashli Pollard

Speaker A: The, uh, bit of like living your life as a performance, I think is just such an inherently female understanding. Like, I think we all know that, like, we've all been conditioned to know what that feels like. Because you feel that people are watching or you know that people are watching and what that does to like, the psyche. Right. Like how that impacts you as someone, like moving through the world is kind of insane. It kind of also makes me think of where we're at with AI right now. Right. So we're talking about like oppressive patriarchy, being bad for men and women as individuals as just people, but also talk about like the oppression of tech and how I, in my, in my opinion, and I think in yours as well, that the way that AI and technology, and again, wealth discrepancy has grown even since the last time you and I talked is that it does feel patriarchal and oppressive and not matriarchal and democratizing. I guess you could say I also resonate with the idea of being a feminist and being democratic, but also being capitalist and, and believing in a free market of ideas. But I think doing it in a way that's more fair and more regulated. I'm, I'm a hundred percent subscribed to that Kiss My Aesthetic. Brandy, you're listening to Kiss My Aesthetic your go to podcast for brag worthy branding, marketing and entrepreneurship advice. I'm your host, Michelle Winnerstein of MKW M Creative Co. Let's dive into the episode. Greetings and welcome back to the Kiss My Aesthetic podcast. We've got an expert on today and she's a repeat guest. Welcome back to the pod. Ashley. I.

Speaker B: When do I get one of my jackets? You know, because I think this is number three.

Speaker A: We're working.

Speaker B: I need a Five Timers jacket. And two and two more times. I'm expecting one.

Speaker A: Huh? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. We are always kind of like on a similar wavelength. I think you and I like the themes that you're talking about online or themes that I'm talking about. Like we have so much crossover and I just finished the book yester year and I can't wait for us to talk about that and your reading habits and, and about supporting women in entrepreneurship. But for anybody who doesn't know you yet, how can you tell us who you are, what you do, who you help?

Speaker B: Well, of course. Hi everybody. I'm Ashley Pollard. I spent 12 years in corporate working for major brands like Gucci, Prada, Oscar Dolorenta. I then started contracting. I worked for the Jenners, Kendall and Kylie Jenner I worked for Brooke Shields, Bethany Frankel, Elaine Welteroth. Some of that under my agency dials your marketing, where we help. We started with celebrity and influencer brands, but now we're doing small brands across the. Across the board for marketing and that type of thing. And then I also run my, uh, baby, my passion, my love the Doers, which is a membership for female entrepreneurs and women in general, which is free to join and 97amonth to opt up. Those are my. That's my little ecosystem.

Speaker A: We love it. And I think you and I have just been on each other's radar for so long. I think back to, like, Clubhouse Days is where we maybe first met in 2021, but we have other episodes with Ashley.

Speaker B: I cannot believe we met there. Isn't that wild?

Speaker A: It's such a crazy. I think this.

Speaker B: You're.

Speaker A: You might have been my only contact that I kept from that whole era. I think yourself. And I think, um, I connected with Amber Figlo via that and. And Shine with Natasha and like some of these other. The other gals that I've. I've had definitely on the podcast more than once, but what a crazy few years. I know that's. That's a silly thing to say now because I think there's just so much going on and there's so much information out there. And I also am, um, of this place of like, I'm now 30, going to be 33 next week. So I'm like into the 30s, well into the 30s, and kind of like looking down the barrel of like, okay, what am I doing? And what am I doing that's like making a greater, larger impact. And I know you're very impact Dr. In the work that you do, what do you feel like is the best descriptor or driver of people coming into your universe? What are they looking to you to help with?

Speaker B: I think, uh, that's a great question. And, you know, if you look at the Doers, my membership is very much about women standing in their space, standing where they are, using their voice, standing up for themselves. And sometimes that's in a big way where they hold a boundary and they declare what their mission is and they declare what their values are. Sometimes it's in a small way where maybe they raise their rates or maybe they decide to venture into business for the first time on their own. Right. And I think that me being loud, being passionate, being outspoken, I tend to attract people that want to embody a little bit more of that because a lot of what I say and do Is I want you to be heard. You are valid, uh, you are allowed to take up this space. But it's also the ethos of every single thing I've ever done is I want women to be financially independent. That's what everything comes back to. And the reason why I say that is because I grew up in a, you know, in a situation where like I didn't feel like my mom had the freedom and the autonomy to that she was able to have. And like when you have that freedom, when you have that autonomy, I always say like until you feel safe and secure financially, you will never meet yourself. And I just think that that's a God given right that we all deserve is to say like who am I? What do I enjoy? What am I about? And you really can only achieve that through financial security.

Speaker A: Completely agree and totally aligned in the way that I had that as the example. Like that was my mom, that was my upbringing was like seeing her make her own money and she started her business when I was already 10 years and my parents did like a 180 where my dad was like working dad and then I had stay at my home mom and then they, they switched and it was right when I was starting to conceptualize like what it means to work. It's like, oh, so you're gonna go drive to a client's house, go to home goods, she's an interior designer, answer some emails. I was like, I think I could do that. Um, but my tolerance for like an actual 9 to 5 structure was practically nil. So I started my, I started my business in college and kind of like never really looked back. But it's been so interesting to kind of track that and track the kind of feeling so passionate about helping women specifically. I come from a big family of girls. It was always part of our ethos, it was always part of our. I can't imagine it being any other way. And I think I have such an appreciation now for people who had the opposite and then still made it to where they're at. Talk to me about what that looks like for you. And I know you're reading Invisible Women right now and I have started reading that one. I literally have it on my side table. It's chewy. It's a big educational text. But what are some of the findings that came out of that book from a statistical empirical and you don't need to quote them verbatim but like ahas, uh, where you're like oh my gosh, everything is really defaulted to men.

Speaker B: It's Unbelievable how much is defaulted to men. And I think, you know, in reading something like this, there's so many obvious things. You know, for instance, there's something like 150% more, you know, dollars put towards erectile dysfunction than there is for endometriosis, which is insane. Like, I'm sorry that you have a specific issue that doesn't affect your day to day life, but like endometriosis is actually like violently painful and you know what I mean? So that's one that I think a lot of us know, especially if you're like involved in feminist conversations. But it goes so much deeper than that. One of my favorite examples that I've read thus far is that this government group was challenged, like everything is feminist. And this one man said, well, I bet it's not when you get to snow plowing. I bet snow plowing isn't feminist. And it turns out it was. Because what actually happened is that they were plowing the streets around the time that men were driving to work at a time that women weren't necessarily like in corporate offices. And what happened is that they realized that if they plowed the roads at a time before women were on the roads, that women's car accidents depleted. So it's like, even snow plowing has this like feminist underbelly of like catering to a male centric world. Things like interior design has been made and manufactured around men's capabilities with shelves being out of reach. Things like the average standard workday is to attribute or to accommodate, you know, is to accommodate the men's hormonal cycle through the day. And it's like everything comes back to like, are women even considered? Because the book kind of has this underbelly thesis that if men, if white men specifically view themselves as the default, then women are overlooked. And I think they think I'm making the best decision because this is what we want. Thinking all people are similar. And the truth is that, uh, there are differences that we have to accommodate and that we have to understand. And so it kind of challenges this notion that there is no default. Race, gender, et cetera. And we have to be including everybody.

Speaker A: We have to. And I think that that's where, where online entrepreneurship. And I think you and I are like, I wouldn't want to be born in any other era because for as shitty as things are, it's also the best it's ever been for women.

Speaker B: Couldn't agree more.

Speaker A: Being kind of being like the first of your bloodline to like, I'm the first of my. Of uh, both sides of the family, I believe that's, like, paid for her own apartment for the last five, six years. You know what I mean? Like, been financially independent since I was 22, from my parents. Like, been able to go travel where I want, when I want, with who I want, and have that autonomy like that that I don't. Definitely don't take for granted. And I think it drives a lot of the business and the business situations that. That I find myself in, which is working with predominantly women and working with women that I see how hard they work, and I see this huge gap between how hard they're working and what they're getting recognized for, awarded financially, opportunities given to them, et cetera. And so for as much as we can say, like, oh, work with people that align with your value, like, yes, in, like, the lofty sense, the, like, fluffy sense. But there's also something about. And my best friend asked me this on the phone yesterday. She's like, why do you care so much about this project? And I said, because the person. That's my point of contact. I want to see her win. I see how hard she's working. I see how much she's doing for these people. I see how much she knows, how much her superiors make. And I want to see her crush it personally, like, I just do. And part of that is also for us, like, filling in for teams that are going on maternity leave. You talk about being childless by choice a lot on your social media, correct? This is correct. Hopefully the correct verbiage. I know a lot of our clients feel similarly. Um, and how has that informed the way that you relate to other women? Working women, working moms, mothers in general? Because I think, unfortunately, the kind of, like, childless cat lady trope, especially from the right, is meant to be derogatory. And I think that we have a real opportunity to kind of. To, like, own that, to take that back. What do you think?

Speaker B: I think it's given me a much deeper sense of a, uh, matriarchal community. You know, I look at my sister, who has two kids. My brother, who has two kids. But let's use my sister as a specific. Three kids. My brother has three kids. Whoops. But let's look at my sister for, for instance, right? Her and my, uh, relationship. I don't have children, won't have children. My sister has these two children who I adore. I love them so, so much. And I have every right to have a baby, right? I could have a child today. That would be my matronly duty to do in the world. And if you have kids, I am not talking down on you at all. However, in my. The. One of the biggest reasons that I decided this is not for me is because I'm so in love with her kids. And what I realized is I would love to experience. I guess I actually really don't, but, like, experience childbirth. Like, I think I'd be a great mom. I think I would provide a great life to a child. But I know these two kids. I've met them, I interact with them, I play with them. Right. And the way that I view things is I have so much more time in the day that I can be building something astronomically large, not that my sister and her husband can't. And I can contribute to their futures. I can be building them trust funds. I can be building, you know, um, a family estate and making sure that we're making sound financial decisions for them where it's like. Or more of a village than independent islands. And when we talk about women and moms feeling so alone, I think part of it is because we've lost the village. And I think that you'll hear a lot of women who don't have children and are willing and choosing that type of lifestyle, Many of them want nothing to do with kids. But what you will see is that a lot of us love kids, and we want to be that support system. We want to be the one saying, I'm bringing over dinner, I'll take them for the weekend. Right. We want to be involved and, like, be a part of that. And to me, it's just such a matriarchal structure. It's such a strong way for women to feel supported, knowing that my sister can say, hey, by the way, we're going to drop off the kids later. It's like we're all in this kind of together versus someone feeling like they're on an island alone. So for me, it just feels so empowering as a woman, because not only do I get the life that I'm very happy leading, I'm very well aware of the life that I'm not going to lead. And there are times I mourn that. But I think also, personally, I would be mourning this life much more. And so I'm happy with my decision, and I'm happy to be in community with women instead of feeling that isolation that I know so many mothers feel.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's. It's because there's no money to be made on empowering people to help each other. And this is kind of like Ah. And maybe this is a stretch and we can debate this, but do we think that a, uh, more matriarchal approach is an antidote to capitalism, or can you be in a capitalist society that still is matriarchal? Like, would you. Are those opposing? I.

Speaker B: Well, I have to say first and foremost that I am a capitalist. And I know that people really don't like to hear that, because capitalism and late stage capitalism, there is a problem. But with proper policy, capitalism can be done very well. We look at some of these European nations that are capitalist nations where there is a, um, free market of, you know, capital and commerce, which is, to me, very important. I want to be a part of that. And we also see those spaces having things like free health care and maternal care and all of these things. So to me, it's like there's a policy issue here, because is capitalism really at play if we just aren't taxing billionaires? Right. And I don't care how successful I get, uh, tax me. I've always said I'm happy to be. I'm happy that I'm helping our libraries and helping our roads, et cetera, et cetera. So I say all of that from the perspective of, like, I just want to say that I'm kind of a capitalist in and of itself. But with that, I think the capitalism and matriarchy can come together. I think what we've seen is a patriarchal capitalism. And what does it look like when. When capital is extracted but for good? And it is a trickle down economy, but the way that it's supposed to be, which is that the wealthy are, you know, Jeff Bezos pulled a whole, like, I'm, you know, scared of Luigi Mangione, let's call it like it is, where he was, like, ever I should be taxed 10 times as much. And why should anybody be taxed if they're not making $100,000 a year? It's like, you're scared of Luigi. Like, we get it, uh, we understand what you're saying here, but that is what should be happening, you know, and if I was making that kind of money, I would gladly be paying the taxes of people that are paying, you know, making less than a hundred thousand dollars a year. So I think that all of these structures, the titles, the labels, I think what's more destructive is not paying attention to. All of this is patriarchy. All of this is oppression. And if we look at it from the lens of like, breaking the patriarchal structures, I think a lot of these labels go away. And we do start to look at what is matriarchy.

Speaker A: Well, and I think what people get confused is patriarchy and masculine and then feminism and feminine or like matriarchy and feminine. And I think the world word salad that comes out of some of these people on TikTok or. Or something like tradwife influencer. Right. Like, you can be masculine in a matriarchal society. And I think that people just don't see that possibility. And I think each person can also possess masculine traits and feminine traits. And I think what we've kind of this bill of goods we've been sold is this, like, hearkening back to this era of when men were men and women were women and da, da, da, da. And how. And that absolutely ignores all the oppression that's happened and all the oppression that is happening and what that means for opportunity and for happiness and for evolution. As people start to realize, like, there's no reason that there should be this big gap. Um, we have to talk about yesteryear because it's just, like, running through my brain. And I've listened to the audiobook version. I think I've told you 15 people to go, like, read it or listen to it. Um, I'm not a voracious reader, but if there's something I feel everyone's talking about, I have to get in on it. Like, I read Wuthering Heights because the Wuthering Heights movie was coming out because I like to be part of the discourse. You're a great reader, and I'm so jealous because it's not something, again, that's like, comes into my schedule naturally. But talk to me about your reading situation and talk to me about yesteryear. You pick which one to start with.

Speaker B: I've always been a reader since I was as early as I can remember. I remember reading chapter books and people being shocked that I was reading chapter books at such a young age. I was the one who was bullied a lot in middle school. So I'm walking around with my head in a book at all times. Like, I was such that, ah, caricature. And was always reading, have always been reading since I started my business, though, I switched away from fiction and was really diving more into nonfiction and self help. A lot of, like, how can I improve? How can I grow as a leader? What can I learn from all of these past founders? You know, I was very much embedded in nonfiction for the past five years to the point that, like, you know, a lot of people say, like, uh, rest is good for you. Like, I can rest, but my head, I couldn't read fiction because it wasn't productive enough. Right. And so this year I kind of broke that mold and was like, I want to read one fiction book a month. And now I'm on like six books, books a month, which is crazy. And I will tell you, my system, because I have a hack one, is that, uh, I always have an audiobook going. And the audiobooks that I prefer are nonfiction. I like my memoirs on audiobook. I like maybe self help books. A really great one is Manifest by. I'm gonna, I'm gonna mess her name up, so I'm not gonna try. But, um, Manifest is a really great one. You know, the beyond the Wand with Tom Felton is actually really incredible. The guy who played Draco Malfoy. Draco Malfoy, thank you. Is incredible on audio. So it's like I always try to have those going. And the reason why I like those on audio is because you can kind of skip some things and you're not missing like, plot or dialogue. And I like to do it when I'm like, cleaning my house or, you know, running an errand, something like that. So I always have an audiobook going. I always. And then I have two other books, a couch read and a. And a bed read. A bed read is something that I can kind of like chip away at, uh, maybe shorter chapters and. And a couch read is something that on a weekend I might dig away into like an. For like an hour, two hours. Right. And so you do that over two weeks. You could get through three books easily. And then I typically do that twice. And I have six books a month. Uh, so that's typically what I do. But I am a ferocious reader. To your point, I love reading fiction. I love fucked up crazy women as the main character. Like, I love it. I love crazy messy. I'm, I'm a feminist, so I support women's rights and wrongs. Okay. And I love reading about nuanced women. So I actually got an advanced copy of Yesteryear in January.

Speaker A: Oh, did you? I was gonna say my favorite category of media in general is like, rich people problems. Like, I love the White Lotus. I love the Seven Husbands, Evelyn Hugo. Like, I love the kind of like, Malibu Rising, like that category. Anyway, I digress. Back to you.

Speaker B: You need to read the club. The club would be a, uh, great book for you to read. It's very White Lotus vibes. But, yeah, you know, so for me, so I got an advanced copy in January, which was really exciting. I'VE been following Caro the writer for years, ever since she started her TikTok. I religiously listen to Diabolical Lies, her podcast. I. I'm a Patreon subscriber, not a Patreon, a substack paying member. I just very much enjoy her world and her point of view. And her co host is great. So when I got the arc, I was very excited about that. I flew through it. I loved what they were doing with it and I loved the resolution of it. I don't want to give any spoilers, but I think the whole thing felt relevant and timely. And I also think that it showcases how patriarchy affects men. You know, it's not just that patriarchy was oppressing her where she had to play this role and step up into this life, but patriarchy was very, very much in play with her husband, which, again, none of this is spoilers, but who was falling into these traps of like, I need to be a masculine man and I need to show up in a certain way and all these things are placed on me. Uh, yeah, exactly. And it's like, that is such a great undertone of this book is the idea that, like, patriarchy is so, so systemic, so oppressive of women, but it is also very much in play when the wealth have power and men are in a patriarchal society. And so it's like every feminist feels frustrated. I'm sure not to speak for everybody, but like, most feminists feel very frustrated by the pushback against patriarchy because it is worse sometimes for men, you know, and it maybe not worse, but it is, it is bad for men under patriarchy, just like it is for women.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, it's limiting. It's limiting and it's. It's. What I think is done so well in the book is showcasing through an unlikable character all the ways in which women make concessions for being people and being palatable and being, Doing the right thing and being the good mom and being a good wife and being a good, in her instance, like, content creator and to hear the dialogue and also the hypocrisy of. And the similarity between deeply religious people, cults, MLMs, social media, content consumption, like that. All of these have these, such, these like, nefarious themes to them. And the bit of like living your life as a performance, I think is just such an inherently female understanding. Like, I think we all know that, like, we've all been conditioned to know what that feels like because you feel that people are watching or you know that people are watching and what that does to, like, the psyche. Right. Like, how that impacts you as someone, like, moving through the world is kind of insane. It kind of also makes me think of where we're at with AI right now. Right. So we're talking about, like, oppressive patriarchy, being bad for men and women as individuals, as just people. But also talk about, like, the oppression of tech and how I, uh. In my. In my opinion, and I think in yours as well, that the way that AI and technology, and again, wealth discrepancy has grown even since the last time you and I talked is that it does feel patriarchal and oppressive and not matriarchal and democratizing, I guess you could say. So talk to me about your recent musings on AI, because I think you and I sit. I also resonate with the idea of being a feminist and being democratic, but also being capitalist and believing in a free market of ideas. But I think doing it in a way that's more fair and more regulated. Um, I'm 100% subscribed to that. But where have you been either disillusioned or discouraged by AI and AI leadership? And where are you still optimistic and feeling like, yeah, no, I'm still going to use this tool?

Speaker B: I feel like all of my feelings about AI is that, listen, I'm a progressive person. I'm an early adopter. I enjoy new ideas and innovative ways to work. And I'm pro AI for that reason. I want to see what it looks like to use AI in different ways for business, for busy moms, for students who are wanting to do more. Right. There's so many end cases that AI contributes to society. And I don't really love the narrative that some people use where it's like, we didn't consent to this. And I do agree, but like, all progress is kind of like that. So I don't. I think that that's just like, um, a pushback against change. Right. And I welcome change. I think where I get frustrated and what we don't consent to is the data centers. You know, with the water supply being disgusting, uh, that is hurting people's quality of life. That is kind of where I draw the line. That's one. It's also putting those data centers in areas that hurt marginalized communities. I don't see them popping up in wealthy neighborhoods. You know, I don't think, uh, Elon Musk is putting a data center in his neighborhood that's going to completely ruin his water supply.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I think for me, it's also a lot of these areas are Voting against the data centers and they're still being built and it's like, what's your choice at that point? You know, like if you vote against the data center being built and they're still putting it up, what do you do? Go egg it? Like then you're destruction of property and you're arrested. So it's like how do you fight back against something that is supposed to have democracy embedded in it and it's still happening. And then there's a second part of it to me that is this plagiarism of it all because I don't see AI doing a great job. You know, AI is now so expensive that agents are costing more than salaried employees. And, and the copy is horrific. And yeah, the photos can be great, but you do need a creative team in order to get them there over many, many, many rounds. And so if we look at all of that, why are people losing their jobs when this is supposed to be helping society? And two, I, uh, mean I have like a million points and now I'm just word vomiting. But like, and then we have the, the plagiarism of it all where it's like people like my sister who built a massive, massive high traffic business around Van Life, hundreds of thousands of visitors and all of that data is just being mined for free, where they're not popping up in search results anymore because AI is sweeping them out of the race completely. That hurts somebody's finances, you know, so it's like with the water of it all, with the voting of it all about the policy, with the open AI, changing the business structure, it's like there's government contracts.

Speaker A: Yeah. Bombing Iran, like that's where that to me I was like, hold the phone. Like no, I can't consent to like using a tool that I know is just been awarded a, uh, contract by the Pentagon. Like that doesn't feel aligned to me at all or the data harvesting that's happening or just there's just so much to be. It's hard because I find myself reaching for the tools less and less. I find myself, I was like, even

Speaker B: I don't use it at all anymore. It's such a waste, it's such a waste of time. If I'm going to go back and forth with an AI for a subpar email, I might as well fucking write it.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And that's, and this is kind of the analogy that I've been describing recently. The AI, the generative AI from like a base user standpoint, like a very elementary I'm going to open a ChatGPT browser and start writing. It's already as good as it's ever going to be because when we first had it, it was like putting all organic produce in a smoothie. And you're like, this is a delicious smoothie because we have all this produce to pick from from the whole of the Internet, from the whole of actual original creation. Real good quality stuff. And like, uh, yeah, maybe there's like, a strawberry that's, like, looking a little questionable, like, but on the whole, like, whatever that smoothie was gonna be, was gonna be pretty good. The problem is now we're making smoothies with, like, some fruit, but mostly with other smoothies. So now you're making content made out of other content that was made from other content, and just the quality has diminished so greatly. It's actually insane. And so, yeah, I could have this whole ChatGPT channel about a brand client that I'm working on. And it's giving me, uh, we're. We're on week three of working with this chat, and now it's giving me shittier information is so, so infuriating because I'm like, screw this. Like you said. Like, I. I'd rather just use my own brain and rather find a way to make it work. It'll be interesting because I'm interviewing Lauren Devane Next. Uh, your A.I. auntie. And she's got some really great, still wonderful, I mean, work that she's doing with the help of AI. But even the last episode I had with her, we just talked about, like, the ethics conversation, the environmentalism conversation, the. The accessibility conversation, and then also the fact that all of these major AI companies are headed up by men. So it goes back to the Patreon,

Speaker B: then it goes into the. Then it goes into the women are being left behind conversation. And it's such. I'm sorry, but that is like. That's like Plant 101. That is some, um, propagandist. If I've ever heard anything, like, I would rather swim in my own vomit than hear one person say that anymore. Because the truth is, is that, like, if we look at any progress, AI or not, right, women are being left behind, but the way that they can actually be a part of this is with their own wealth. Like, I hate to break it to you, but some messages aren't for you. And if you are a single mom or a busy mom or a student or an entrepreneur who's handling a lot of things, if you are inundated, broke, busy, then you're left behind already. You weren't even invited to the table. The women who are being left behind are the millionaires who aren't getting in on Nvidia stock or building their own AI company to be swapped wept up by Meta, uh, meta one day. You know what I mean? Like, those are the people who are genuinely being left behind because there was a big E Com boom. There's been all of these different, you know, Internet booms. There's been all these moments that were spearheaded by men. But the people being left behind are like Melinda Gates or Reese Witherspoon. These women who have so much spend available that they're able to participate in this type of movement and people don't get that. And they're, uh, they're participating in it by buying into it. Do you know what I mean? And here's the thing, is that, like, I'm weirdly very optimistic about this because I'm someone who has. I'm always someone who sees 20 years in advance what happens through this. And I heard a quote recently that I will never forget. It's one of the most poignant quotes I've heard about AI. And this is one of the things that gives me hope and solace and is also the reason that I'm loud. He said, when airplanes were invented, there was a time that it was the most exciting thing to be a part of, right? And if you look at air travel now, it is so unbelievably safe. It is safer to be in a plane than in a car. But, uh, do you know the most unsafe day to be in a plane was the first day. And it's because they didn't have these tests. It's because they didn't know all of this. And so for me, I think that we're just such in our infancy. That's the other thing about the getting left behind. It's like we are still so early adopter. You know, I want everyone else to go figure out how AI works and build all the software and I'm going to piggyback and I'm going to use it. You go do all of that. Right? Uh, and so I say that because this is a hard, bad time for AI and a lot of people have to join the market and a lot of people have to be stripped from it. And a lot of, a lot of laws have to be a lot of legislative, you know, action has to be taken in order to make sure that people are safe and protected. But the reason. So I'm optimistic and that could Keep me quiet today. I know this is going to work itself out. I do see a future that we're all going to be off of our phones. I do see a future that we're all going to be like more embedded in the world. You know, we also see that with all the analog pushes right now. I see that. But for the legislation to be passed, I have to be loud today. And so it's like there's this, there's this chicken in the egg where it's like, I know we're going to be fine in the future, but that doesn't mean I can't be loud about it now because we're going to be fine in the future because I'm going to be allowed, right?

Speaker A: And Pandora's already, uh, out of the box. There's no undoing this. There's no putting it back together. It's. It's like an industrial revolution. It's like a, uh, like you said, like a dot com boom, an E com boom, drop shipping boom. Like they're all these things. However, this one seems that it's coming fast. You know what I mean? Like this, it's, it's insane how much, how much development happens so fast. But it reminds me of when I was in Cape Town, South Africa and they were having a water crisis and they told all of the people, like the actual residents, that you could only have two bottles of water a day total and you could only take a shower once every three days. But guess who is still running the water? The golf courses, the resorts, the pools, the wealthy, the. And it's just a, um, it's just a misdirection of fault that I feel is repeating itself now with the AI thing of like being an artist or a creative that uses AI that you can't also be critical of AI because I am. And we've had to. Now we're going to be adding to our contract like an AI policy. Because if I'm sending you a logo or a T shirt design or something and you want to direct me on how to edit it by putting it into AI, that's going to now be in violation of our contract. I'm all for using AI, but we need to use that needs to be part of the brainstorm phase and not part of the execution phase because it's not an executor, because you're going to run into so many unforeseen issues by prompting it yourself. As not the creative person to your point before, but m. Like you still need a whole ass creative team to make that work. Like I might use it say, hey, take these designs and make them look like patches for a summer camp theme campaign I'm working on. But I still got to take that shit back into illustration Illustrator and fix it and cut it out and make it work and like make it actually functional for that brand because it's not going to see that all the way through. So what are your thoughts with that as far as like again, it, what I see it as, it's like a misplace of blame when really in uh, the case in South Africa was that they didn't build diesel plants because there was legislation around that. And then also because the wealthy people campaigned for it not to be built for water for actual water.

Speaker B: I mean here's the thing is that like it puts from a commerce and market perspective because I think the worst part of this is the water. The worst part of this is the people who are being hurt by this in marginalized communities. The worst part of this from a commerce perspective is the crunch that SMBs are feeling small and medium sized businesses are feeling. Because here's what's happening. This is genuinely not even a conspiracy theory, but this is how I'm viewing the AI world right now. Investors put way too much money into Nvidia. They need that return bad or they're in a really bad position. So the investors that are investing in Nvidia are also investing in consumer brands, tech brands, et cetera, and saying you need to be using AI because it supports one of their other portfolio companies, which is Nvidia. So now these consumer brands, these tech brands are uh, feel, I work with them, they're feeling the crunch that they are required to, to use AI. So then they have to be using AI because they could lose their money, they could lose their funding, they could go out of business literally. These are people who may not want to use AI, who may not believe in AI, who may not have the like the ability to use it properly. And they're either hiring agencies and saying you have to use AI because we have to show that we're using it. And then these agencies are being put in a position where they have to use it. And then from there, you know, uh, a product brand puts out an AI photo shoot on their social and all the comments are, we don't want you using AI, we don't want you using AI. So there's this crunch from the top and the bottom where the investors are saying we cannot financially have this flop. And so you have to be using it and the consumers are saying this is going to flop because we're not going to support, I'm not interested. You know, so it puts these small businesses in a really bad position because what is a company supposed to do if they are being asked to use AI? And that contract feeds famil families now what? You know, so it's like, it's just like any sort of ethical conversation. It's like it's not black or white, you know, like I know people who have to use AI or they will lose their business. They will lose it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I have uh, nothing but empathy and sympathy for that. I get that position and I'm going to be critical of it so that we can all have a better understanding and feel supported because maybe one, those investors will ease up a little bit and two, maybe more consumers will be empowered to push back so that everybody kind of sees this is something that we need to be contributing to. And I don't mean to say that like we shouldn't be progressing forward. I mean that like if this is a democracy we get to shape what it looks like.

Speaker A: And I think that that comes down to each individual business owner and finding where that aligns for them and where it doesn't. For me, using AI, specifically generative AI tools, although I don't agree with how they're run or who's run, like the legislative, all these complicated ethics questions questions, it helps me green light my clients ideas faster, it helps them go to market faster. And my clients are the ones that I think are good people with good hearts with good products and services that deserve to have a fighting chance against a monopoly. I believe that. So if, if I can help show them a render of this is what your pop up shop could look like. Here's what your packaging could be, here's what you're. And I can show them the possibility that I can already see for them, but I can show them to help them just speed run this thing to get a fighting chance. Like that's serving, that's outweighing for me in this moment how I feel about the companies thus far. Like could we get to that same result by spending 18 hours in Photoshop maybe. But like could I prompt something within 10 minutes and get that client their deliverables and be able to get them off the ground? Like yeah. So it comes to that kind of like for me, cost benefit analysis of like what are we using it for, when does it come into play and how do I use it as an entrepreneur in a way that's aligned with my vision and goals. And a lot of how I've been using AI is. Is taking call recordings and transcripts and saying, what could I have done better? How could I have driven this conversation? Using it as more of a. Giving it the source material and. And getting the actual, like, again, impartial in quotes, because it's going to cater to what I want, but you can prompt it. Otherwise is like, how can. Can I be a more evolved entrepreneur so that I can then help the other people that are in my sphere? And so it'll be interesting because I think that's what I'm excited to talk to Lauren about, is like, what does this look like? And what. What are the things in each business that are. What are those values you're not willing to waiver on? What are those aspects that you're not willing to waiver on, like, how much AI is embedded in your work or not?

Speaker B: Well, and also coming back to, like, at. At my core, I'm a feminist, right? I'm not an environmentalist. I'm not an economist. I'm not anything. The number one label that I will always refer back to is like, everything comes back to being a feminist. I'm a feminist above every single other thing in my entire life. And I say that because if a woman is listening to this, offended, that they can't use AI to run their business because it's helping them grow, then I actually want you to be doing it.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? This does not apply to you.

Speaker A: Then.

Speaker B: I will always say that above all. There's a flip side of this, though, that intersectional feminism has to be considered. And it's like, there are black women, there are marginalized women that don't have proper running water for their families. And if I'm someone who is safe and secure financially, I need to be able. I just personally feel like I have an ethical responsibility. When you have power, do something with it. And do I have a lot of power? No. But I'm safe. And so if I'm safe, can I do something for the people that maybe don't have a platform that maybe. Right. And I don't even have that much of a platform. Right. But it's like, I'm not going, uh, respectfully, I'm not going to be looking out for, like, my fellow peer business owners. I'm going to be looking out for the people who are working three jobs and they don't have drinking water. You know what I mean? And I don't think you have to choose. I'm making that very like, binary. I don't think that that's the case per se, but in my opinion, in my life, with my choices, I am going to be the person who is saying something is wrong here. And on top of the fact that the, the underlying thing of all of this, if AI gets rid of everybody's jobs, who has the money to buy your stupid ass Tesla? No one has money anymore. Now what?

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: So, uh, exactly.

Speaker A: Well, I think we've also pinpointed another thing that is the difference between a more matriarchal approach to success and uh, more what I perceive to be a more patriarchal version of success, which is. Ah. And again, I don't want to put these like masculine, feminine, male, women, but men, women. But it's, it's the idea that I have enough, therefore I can help the person that's coming up the ranks behind me versus I have enough. I want more because that person has more than me. And that, uh, I think is a very clear difference. And like, that's a very like ethics, morals, upbringing kind of convers and that I believe in the same way that you do of like looking 20 years in the future. I think that our idea of how to run businesses and support people will prevail. Because I think we've been in this other area.

Speaker B: I think it's inevitable.

Speaker A: I think it's inevitable. I think there's just not really a reality in which we can continue to do this whole, well, I've got mine, but I want what that guy has and I want what they have and I want. And I don't care who. Well, I had to work hard to get here. No, you had the privilege of being lucky enough to be born in a situation where you could take advantage of those opportunities. Not to negate anyone's hard work, but the difference between being born in the US and being born in Gaza is luck. Luck?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Pure luck. Pure luck.

Speaker B: Mhm. So let's gamble.

Speaker A: Let's also call that what it is. And I think where you and I have so much similarity is like I'm happy to stick my neck out because it is not a risk for me to do so. I'm not gonna lose my house, lose my job. I'm not gonna be disowned from my family.

Speaker B: Hold on though, uh, we will lose our jobs. We will though.

Speaker A: You've experienced it.

Speaker B: I experience it like people don't want to work with us. People don't want to do things with us. I had an opportunity to do something with a brand that was very AI focused and I said no and it was a shit ton of money. The good news is I have money. Like I'm fine, you know what I mean? So it's like I can say no to the money and if I have the privilege to do so, then I'm going to do it. You know what I mean? And if I, if I'm uh, confident enough to say the quiet thing out loud, if I'm bold enough, if I'm saying I financially am secure, I personally, and people can disagree with this, I personally think that I have a God given right to do that. Um, like I don't have a choice but, and I'm happy to make the choice but like I don't have a choice but to say like if everything is going my way, I'm not going to become more comfortable. I'm going to be more loud personally. Uh, and the other thing is like I know that people aren't confident. I know that people are shy. I know that people can't say things because of their families. My whole family is loud, Republican, a lot of them maga. So like you can imagine how I experience things, but I also don't give a shit, you know what I mean? And so if I also am born with the trait where I'm like I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about me, then I have to be saying some things because the amount of dms I got that are like thank you, thank you, thank you is the thing that pushes me to keep going.

Speaker A: Mhm. Well and it's also a thing of like I know that my audience is aligned when I post my politics and I don't have this mass exodus of followers. Like I don't have. No one's leaving because it's been there since day one. It's been there, it's always been there. Like it's always been front and center. It's always been values aligned, it's always been that way. And I can have empathy and sympathy for the person that doesn't have that level of comfort with it and who is.

Speaker B: Well there's a person in the doers who has uh, almost. Okay, well I'm not going to say but like a massive following. Right. And was so scared to ever talk about her politics which I could not understand more of course. Right. Very divisive, very challenging, but wanted to, felt called to and uh, started sharing little things and eventually was invited to some really high level DNC types of events and the backlash was astronomical. For her. And as someone who was sensitive, as someone who is a people pleaser, you might say, as, uh, someone who is very much like an empath and, you know, doesn't want anybody to be upset with her, which I can. I can understand all of that. She lost so many followers and had such terrible dms. And I kept telling her, like, stay the path, though, because those people anyway, they weren't your people anyway. But on top of that, like, you don't owe them anything. You, uh, owe yourself this. Like, you are not abandoning them, you're abandoning yourself. And it's different if you have no calling to do that. She felt called to talk about it, so. So then talk about it and know that it is not because you're in service to this audience that has followed you for free, by the way, you are indebted to. Am I living up to my standard for myself, and that's it. And if people don't understand that, they can misunderstand that. And I'm sorry that those people feel offended. And I'm proud that she said, I'm gonna do what I know I need to do, because I answer to me. You know what I mean?

Speaker A: Yeah. I think it's. We're just in such an interesting, like, time capsule spot, because I remember, like, the Instagram advice of 2015 was like, Be your authentic self. Tell people what your coffee order is. And it's just so funny to think how far we've come. And for me, I'm grateful for it. I would rather have these more complex, cerebral, academic conversations, ethical conversations, moral conversations, like, about where we're all going, because there was kind of that perceived, like, flippantness of. Of media, of entrepreneurship, of business ownership that I think now, again, as much as it's. It's painful and it's difficult and it's chewy, I'm grateful for where we're at, because I think it's shining light on a lot of areas that were kept in the dark. And I think that that's necessary. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker B: I agree. I agree. And I think that if anybody's astrological, we have been in a patriarchal age for hundreds of years, and we are now shifting into the age of Aquarius, which is a matriarchal world. And so I think we're going to see a lot of patriarchal societies kind of burning. And the other thing that I feel like kind of gets me through, which is dark. So some people may really hate this. Take if it is hard for you to think about, like, death, but I'm like, nothing changes in our life time, you know what I mean? Like, nothing major from a feminist perspective. We don't see equal rights in this life, and maybe not even in the generation after us, but we can lay the bricks to go a little further. And so where I come from is I'm like, I'm not here to solve anything, but I'm here to, to keep the volume up, you know what I mean? And, and if other people are dimming down because they're getting older and they've led the way, then, like, I'll take over. I'll hold the sign, you know what I mean? I'll walk next to you. So I kind of view it as like, I'm not here to fix anything. I'm here to join the crowd and keep the, keep the, the march moving forward.

Speaker A: Agree, Agree. Oh my gosh, what a beautiful place to leave it. We didn't really even get to talk about doers, so can you please plug doers again for anybody that, oh my

Speaker B: gosh, everybody joined the doers? It's completely free. It' I think we have like a few, a couple hundred people in the doers now. A lot of women are in entrepreneurship, some are in corporate, some don't work. The free version has a monthly book club. Um, in June, we're reading Good People, which I'm very excited about. It's about an Afghan family. Something happens and it becomes like gossip around the town and you end the book not really knowing, uh, what's going on. I think, I don't know, I've never read it, but really excited about our book club. Uh, it's really fun. You can also follow our literary club, Instagram if you'd like. We do monthly calls for free. We have different channels where you can ask for advice and you can have a, uh, you know, access the job board. It's really cool. Or you can pay 97amonth to get one on one mentorship with me and you unlock 200 plus resources of like, completely done for you, non AI copy, content, calendar, you name it. It's a really, really, really great place to just make sure a lot of your business is done for you for $97 a month, which is a really great place to start.

Speaker A: And Ashley's over in, uh, our Heartbeat group as well. So we have a little trade off going on over there. So you'll see us in all of these places. Feel free to tag us, ask your questions, send us a dm if you love this episode, guys, please send it to a friend. Save it. Leave a comment. We'd love to see it. Thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for your time. Ashley. This was juicy.

Speaker B: Happy to be here. We'll do it again. I need that five Timer jacket.

Speaker A: I know. We gotta keep going. We gotta keep going with it. Thanks so much, everyone. Have a great time and, uh, we'll catch you next time. Bye. Thanks for joining us for the Kiss My Aesthetic podcast. Don't forget to follow along and leave us a review anywhere you listen to podcasts. We'll see you in the Kiss My Aesthetic Facebook group for years and years of behind the scenes content and over 5,000 connections with fellow creatives. For show notes from today's episode, please visit mkwcreative.co POT this episode was edited by Berta Wired and theme music comes from Eliza Vera and Nathan Menard. Catch you next time.