Career Reinvention, Retirement and Building a Richer Life with Hannah Martin and Jane Jackson

Speaker A: Welcome to youo Career Podcast with Jane Jackson where I help mid career professionals overcome self doubt and gain career clarity and the confidence to create the life and career they desire. Book a zoom chat with me@jane jacksoncoach.com I'd love to meet you and discover what's happening in your career.

Speaker B: Too many women rely on the fact that their partner has paid into a pension only to discover they hadn't. So people get divorced survived in amicable divorces in the UK means that without getting legal advice from a sica, women aren't getting a uh, share of their husband's pension. And that pension has usually been built because the woman has stayed home with the children. They they've sacrificed her career for his career. He's built his pension up. She hasn't built her they get divorced and and because of amical divorces she doesn't seek a share of his pension which she she's entitled to. Um, and another thing for me, another reason even if that you stay married and your husband's built a big pens. I personally want financial independence. There is a risk whereby you're having to ask for money for things and I don't want to spend like the letter perfect my life asking for money or making apologies for how I spend my money.

Speaker A: The idea of a Talented Ladies Club was born when freelance copywriter Hannah Martin realized that so many of her friends were struggling to resume their careers after having children. Now these women were successful, talented, ambitious women who should have had no problem earning good money in jobs they loved. If only the world understood the value of mothers. So Hannah reasoned that if she knew so many talented but frustrated women in her own social circle, there must be thousands, if not millions of women feeling the same all over the world. And at that time, there were no inspiring and empowering online content courses talking to them. So Hannah decided to create her own. She enlisted the help of her good friend, designer and illustrator Carrie Fisher, and together the two of them brought Talented Ladies Club to life. In 2013, Hannah and Carrie wanted to create an inspiring resource that would show women that becoming a mother was not the end of their career. And it was actually the start of an exciting new adventure. Uh, I'm delighted to welcome Hannah Martin back to youo Career Podcast for the third time. And let's welcome Hannah to the show. And so here is the lovely Hannah Martin. Nice to see you yet again, Hannah.

Speaker B: Uh, you too, Jane.

Speaker A: We first met Roundabout 2014 via Twitter and then I interviewed you on my podcast in 2015. And then about six, seven years later, I interviewed you again. And now another six, seven years later. We've got to stop meeting like this, Hannah. It's like the seven year itch. Got to talk to Hannah Martin again. What's going on? Yeah, that's right. And also, um, we kind of reconnected again after a while because I noticed that you have launched a new business, a new arm, um, of your business. And it's so relevant for so many women right now that I thought it's really important. It's a good time to have you back on, but let's quickly do a recap because I was wandering around in Bondi beach, at Bondi beach, one year back in round about 2014, and I posted a photo or I said something about how beautiful the beach is and the weather, and then you responded and we ended up having this conversation. Getting to know each other. And your business has been fascinating because back in 2013, transitioning from an amazing copywriting, uh, career where you worked at Ogilvy One in London and in Hong Kong, uh, you set up your own business running Talented Ladies Club.

Speaker B: So that was inspired by, um. I had my daughter in 2009 and I always worked in London. I was a single mom to a son before that had to continue my career. So I'd always worked through motherhood. And then when I had my daughter, I started working at home and I thought, I've got to meet local women because I was always just sleeping in my hometown and working in London. And I was quite surprised to meet so many women who had amazing careers, but they hadn't been able to successfully continue their mess after becoming a mother. And I felt this was just such a waste, a waste to society, but also a waste of these women. Um, and there was nothing at the time that, I mean, it seems incredible now because there is so much. But there was nothing that talked to mothers that were ambitious and gave them permission to be ambitious and gave them advice and encouraged them. And so although I had no experience of creating a website or community or anything and didn't even know what I was doing, really, I just sat, ah, down Talent Ladies Club up. Because I just felt that someone should be out there talking about this. Um, so that's why I set up Talentati's Club. It was, you know, specifically talking to that kind of group of women, um, and, yeah, wanting to give them support and encouragement.

Speaker A: And the thing is that when you do take time off to have your baby and you have your maternity leave and there's always this mummy guilt and angst that so many people feel, isn't there? Like, oh, you know, I really want to get back to work, but then I want to be a good mother as well. And then will I be taken as seriously when I go back to work? And you know, in your experience with all the women that you've worked, uh, for and with when they do return to work, what's the general feeling?

Speaker B: I think the, the guilt that you talk about is a very common feeling. And there is that, uh, that kind of thing being like, pulls two ways. You know, your, your work is your identity, especially if you have a career you love. It's a really big part of who you are and what makes you happy and what fulfills you and how you. But then you also have got this child and you want to be their mother and you want to raise them and you want to, you want to be a good mother for whatever, you know, the perception of a good mother is for yourself, but also you miss that child. You know, that that's really strong bond. And physically going into an office, you know, I remember I would just like, take my child's clothes and like, smell them in the office when I get back to work with my son. Um, it is really, really tough, um, to do that. And I think today there's a much more understanding first of the value of that, of that cohort of women that become mothers and the loss to businesses if they don't come back, but also the needs of a mum to balance that. And I think it's much more possible today to still have a career of some degree that gives you what you need and to be a mum when I had my son, that it was literally work or stay at home, you know, that there was, there was nothing in between, that there was no choice. Um, and that was really tough. Um, but I think today that there is much more choice because I think it is, it is difficult and I think it is still really important. So being like my son is now 23, so I'm kind of looking at it from the other end of this now. And the women, uh, like me, who either had to or wanted to continue working, that managed to continue their careers in some way, I think have fared better than the ones who, who gave up their career to stay home and raise their children. Because when I, the friends that I've got have really struggled to come back into the workplace with a long career break later.

Speaker A: Yeah, and also when you mentioned that, it makes me think, you know, I mean, obviously you hope that marriages, you know, last for, uh, you know, a lifetime. And the thing is, the reality is that sometimes they don't. And having gone through a divorce myself as well, the time out of the workforce that affects, uh, superannuation, your savings, your earning capacity. When you want to re enter the workforce, you think, oh, I need to earn more money. But then I'm not able to because I've had this hiatus while I was being a good mom. And there are all of these thoughts that go through your head that make it very, very challenging. And then if your savings have suffered as a result of relationship issues or whatever, it sort of piles one problem on top of another and caus quite an anxious situation, doesn't it? I'm thinking about like when we first met, my children were so much younger. And now obviously, you know, they've grown. And your son, who was very young then, um, and is now in his early 20s. My children, who are in their teens and early 20s, well, one's just turned 40. How did that happen? But then now both of them have got one or two children and I can see how the juggle of being a mother, being a career woman, wanting to be able to do it all, it really is a struggle because, um, you feel torn in both ways. And it's that fine balance, isn't it? And so that must have been what drove you to start Talented Ladies Club.

Speaker B: It is. And I think, um, I want to just come back, just briefly, the financing. Why it is really important that I think, um, it's very difficult for women if they have given up work and their relationship doesn't work because I have a lot of friends who have got divorced in, in the year since and they can't get mortgages because they've been out of the workplace. So there are always add on things as well. Um, and I think, and also the lack of confidence that women have when they're out of the workplace for a long time, really, they don't see themselves as the, the workplace has moved on. We know now with AI, it's moved on hugely. And if you were last in the office 10 years ago, there's a lot that you feel that you, you, you have, you've missed and you know, you and I know that those skills are there and actually you've added many soft skills to that. Um, but that's really hard. But, but going back to what you just said about that, that struggle and I think the biggest thing that I learned, and actually I was um, very good at this myself, I don't know whether that's because of my upbringing and how my parents were. But it's. It's letting go perfectionism, you know, being a good enough mom and being a good enough employee and, and understanding where your kind of bars are. So I want, you know, there are things that I really want to achieve. These are standards that I have that are really important here and I will adhere to them. And there are other areas I can let things go because I think if you hold yourself to this value, that I must be the perfect mum, whatever, you know, whatever kind of that is for you, and then I must be the perfect employee and I must succeed at my job and I must be the perfect wife or, or partner. I think you're. You're setting yourself up to fail and you're setting yourself up for a lot of misery because you're not, you know, we're human beings and we're going to drop thin balls occasionally. So I think being kind to yourself and accepting that all you can do is your best and that has to be enough. I think, as you say, uh, in looking back on all those years and all the women I've spoken to, the ones that have navigated it more successfully are the ones that have been able to let things go.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was just thinking of something. It's quite funny. When my daughters were very young, we had baby playgroups. And the baby playgroups, they got very, very competitive because they'd be held at each person's house each time. You know, every week we'd meet at someone else's house and someone, one week made the most amazing cakes from scratch. And then, of course, I, when it was my turn, had to make something amazing from scratch. But the baby was crying and I'm not that good a cook. And I got myself so stressed out because I wanted to be the perfect mum and make. And be, you know, Betty homemaker.

Speaker B: I'm not.

Speaker A: And after that disastrous baby playgroup, when really my cakes were no good whatsoever, Marks and Spencer's were great. So I gave myself permission. I don't need to bake if I'm not good at it.

Speaker B: Jane, it's fine.

Speaker A: But. But you're absolutely right. Little things like that, they can all add up as well because it makes you think about your self worth. And they can be as small as, do I do it from scratch or do I buy something? But also it's, how good am I as. As a mother, as a wife, as an employee, as so many things. And we, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, don't we?

Speaker B: Yes, we do. And we don't need to put that amount of pressure on ourselves.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And what's so good is when you started Talented Ladies Club, you provided so many articles and support courses and things that would help people to navigate um, those challenges and make people realize that it's actually okay not to be perfect as well. Um, and basically we're all just doing the best we can at this phase in our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Ah. And so, so you've navigated it really well now and we've, we've both got grown up children now. We've got grandchildren as well. You just wait, Hannah, it'll be. Well I, I thought even, even when I was perfectly old enough to have grandchildren, I said I'm too young to be a grandmother. But the minute the first grandchild came

Speaker B: along, as I remember, I remember you came weeks when we met up because you came over, didn't you?

Speaker A: Yes. When your grandfather in London 2019. Yes. I made a trip down to, down to um, Worthing and I, and I escaped before the baby was born or the baby was two, two weeks late anyway. So my three week trip to the UK ended up being five weeks and now he's m. Six and a half years old. So how wonderful is that? It's just amazing. Such a joy. But um, that was a good trip. In fact we had a, we recorded a conversation all about collaboration and maintaining authent relationships. And I'll leave in the show notes the link to our video that recorded in Worthing because it really is, it's a fun video that I'm sure that anyone who has a little bit of time would have two or three minutes just to watch what our conversation was. But now Hannah, things have evolved. Talented Ladies Club grew and grew and I know that your, your website has had like over 5 million viewers uh, over time and your business has also evolved. So as a businesswoman, as a wife, as a mother, uh, talk me through this transition period and um, then I want to find out all about the new business as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. So as I said, I mean when I started town Sadies Club in 2013, I had a two stroke three year old and a, and a. He was 13, uh, nearly 10. Um, and so I had really young children and I said there really wasn't much around for women at the time. And, and so I really loved creating this resource and learning. Um, and it kind of a couple of years ago I sort of realized that actually like my children weren't young anymore and the women that I spent time with my friends and my acquaintances, we were kind of out the other side of that. And also I felt that there was, we're in a market now where there is a lot of the workplace has changed, a lot more support for mums now in the workplace. There's a lot more resources online and I sort of felt that actually like a lot of the work had been done. So Tanzania's club still keeps going but I was also starting to kind of think of or organically notice a new challenge. So m, Some of my friends were turning 60, um, and I started working with a company in the UK called PensionBee, um, as a female owned company that is a pension platform. And I did some work for them and the more I researched retirement and financial retirement, the more I realized that actually the same cohort of women that I was talking to in 2013 who were young mums were now kind of looking down the barrel of retirement and not being prepared, just they weren't prepared for being mums. They're now in this sort of environment where they're not really prepared for retirement financially for retirement. But more than that, I love these blue zones. Um, and I've been following um, um, Dan Wetner from the Blues and for a number of years now and I, as I get older and I've always enjoyed looking off my body and being healthy but I'm very consciously now uh, doing things that, that mean that uh, I'm going to hopefully live a long time, but hopefully live well for a long time. And, and so I started to think kind of really holistically about retirement and what, what I wanted this next stage of my life to be like how I was preparing for that, that and then realizing a bit like with tlc that there really wasn't an awful lot that talked to women in the way that I wanted to talk to women because I mean I'm 54 but uh, I still feel like I'm 34 or 24 and, and I, you know, I don't when I see um, we have a company in the uk, I don't know if it's club, it's called Saga and it's for people over 50. So once you turn 50 you start getting leaflets about, about Zimmer frames and cruises and everyone's gray hairs and playing with grandkids and I'm like, I don't relate to that. You know, look at my parents who are in their 70s and 80s and they have a better social life than me and they're really active people and, and so the the version of retirement, or not even retirement, but older age I had wasn't represented. So similarly to when I started tlc, I thought, well, if that's not out there, then I want to create something that is inspiring, that is educational, and, um, that will help people from their mid-40s onwards, help to plan for retirement, but in all ways, not just money.

Speaker A: Yeah. Too often people think of retirement and planning for retirement as the financial thing, but there's the spiritual, there's the relationships, there's, well, your physical and mental health as well. And, you know, certainly for me in my 60s now, mobility is so important because if you're not able to get up off the ground without using your hands, if you can't balance and you're a bit off balance and you take a fall. I'm very aware of all of that. And, and you're absolutely right. You have to maintain mobility, your fitness in addition to the financial side, and then of course, the relationships, because women live a little bit older. In fact, just before our, our, um, when we started this, um, interview, I had a look at some of the Australian retirement statistics and I'll be interested in how they compare with the ones in UK where you are. Because in Australia, Australian women retire at 62.7 years old. Okay. Um, and so two and a half years earlier than men, yet face a significant gender superannuation gap because of the earning potential, because women have taken time off work and had to get back up to speed, and then they weren't contributing to their superannuation. And so women tend to have one third less super than their male counterparts. It's interesting, isn't it? And then, so the low balances. About 42% of women in Australia retire with less than 100,000 Aussie dollars in their super accounts. You can't retire on that. That's not enough. Um, and systemic causes is primarily driven by broken work patterns, time taken off for unpaid caring responsibilities, and that I was thinking also that the, the responsibilities do fall on women a lot when their parents are aging. We're kind of in a sandwich generation, aren't we, where we've got young children, we've got aging parents, children need care, aging parents need care. We still need to work, we still need to earn money. You're being pulled in every direction. It's, it's quite a stressful situation for so many people and you don't actually realize it because, you know, as your parents get older, of course you want them to live longer and healthily too. But then they also need you to be there and you've got to be there for your children and oh my goodness, how do we cope? How on earth do people cope? And then there is that historical gender pay gap as well. Um, and in Australia, according to the latest Australian bureau stats, it's 11.5% still now. So that's interesting. So in the UK because I know you've, you've been a very strong advocate for women over the years and you lobby for uh, you know, women's equal, equal pay. How, how are things in the uk?

Speaker B: It's funny because it's almost, it's identical to that. So, so for example, for women in their early to mid-50s, uh, have around £86,000 in a pension compared to 156,000 with men. So it's a very similar number. And, and you know, you talk about the gender pay gap and I wrote an article yesterday actually funnily enough about why do women have less in the pension than men? And all the reasons you cite are, are exactly that. Um, but too, and I wrote research an article a while ago about. So we know that women predominate in um, industries are lower paid like care and kind of shop work and things like that. Um, and so we are disproportionately represented in lower paid jobs and underrepresented higher paid jobs like finance and it. Um, but interestingly there's been research done that when an industry starts to attract more women, so if an industry was maybe more male dominated and then it shifts, become more female dominated, the median wage drops. M. So even when, even when we enter an industry en masse, then that engine becomes less valued. But um, but yes, women aren't. And there are other reasons as well that uh, women are far less likely than men to seek out financial advice. You know, we tend to, I don't know whether that's because historically, you know, the husband went out and earned the money, the woman took care of the home. And so therefore, you know, the finances were a man's remit and whether there's still a hangover from that, um, the irony is, is that we know that when, when women do invest, for example, we generally outperform men in investments. We're better at picking investments than men, but we are less likely, we're more likely to put our money into cash savings rather than stocks and shares, which obviously don't, you know, an average increase as much. Um, and, and there's also too many women rely on the fact that their this partner has paid into a pension and also will so you've got things like I, I've had friends who have believed their husbands were well paying job for paying into pensions only discover they hadn't so you know, they didn't have a pension there. Um, people get divorce advised amicable divorces in the UK means that uh, without getting legal advice from a solicitor women aren't getting a share of their husband's pension. Pension and that pension has usually been built because the woman has stayed home with the children. They've sacrificed her career for his career. He spoke his pension up, she hasn't built her. They get divorced and she, and because of amical divorces she doesn't seek a share of his pension which she's entitled to. Um, and another thing for me, another reason even if that you stay married and your husband's built a big pension up. I, I personally want financial independence. I want to, if I want to go out and buy, buy 10 red dresses that all look exactly the same, I don't want my husband saying why are you buying 10 red dresses? You know, uh, that's my money. But if you, if you have a pension that your husband has built up there is a risk whereby you're having to ask for money for things and, and I don't want to spend like the latter part of my life making, asking for money or making apologies for how I spend my money. So, so I want financial freedom as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, because it's so disempowering isn't it when you have to ask for permission as a grown woman to do something or to pay for something or to be allocated an allowance which I'm sure that um, Gen Z would be you know, absolutely horrified to hear because you know it's a completely different mindset. But thinking about moving into retirement age, it is really the baby boomers and you know the, the older Gen X who are getting into that phase now and the way that we were brought up there was a certain way of thinking that is very different from the younger ones. So hopefully um, with the subsequent generations who are getting older they have more financial um, power or financial understanding. And I really wish so much that when I was in secondary school there had been more subjects on investment or more on economics that was personal so that would actually affect you know, our lives because there was none of that certainly when I was, I was growing

Speaker B: up it was all abstract wasn't it? And I don't remember anyone ever teaching me about things like compound growth. And we tend to think, I mean I even did a few years ago though that investing is complicated. You can't possibly, uh, begin to understand it. And, and you know, the, the complexities of like, you know, if you want to get into kind of which type of stock is you, you know, right now is you, you can go down a rabbit hole and learn in great detail. But if you only need a basic grasp of how investment works to, to access it and to make money out of it, and the, um, you know, the, there's always concerns about, you know, we hear about stock market dips and we think, well, you know, like, it's dangerous to rest the stock market, but historically there are always dips. And actually dips are fine because if you're still buying, you want there to be dips because when you buy when it's low, you're getting more stocks. Um, and actually, you know, the stock market has outperformed other investors, up and

Speaker A: up and up, always.

Speaker B: I think in the UK things are, you know, like we're saying, like, the younger generations tend to be a bit more financially literate than we were. Um, in the uk, they introduced something called auto enrollment a few years ago, I think around 2016, which basically means that, um, you don't have to opt into a pension, you have to opt out. So if you meet certain thresholds, like if you earn £10,000 a year or more in paid employment, your employer must enroll you in a pension. Um, they must contribute. So some of your salary is sacrificed. They, they, I think they contribute, you contribute 4%, they contribute 3% and the government contributes 1% in tax benefits. And you can opt out, but you have to cut, you have to physically opt out of it. And I think that is a really good step for young people. However, what it is also doing is it's, people are sort of being a bit, um, it's maybe a little bit kind of blase. And they kind of think, well, I've got pensions covered and actually it's not going to be enough. Still, it's a good start, starting point, but people still need to take responsibility for their own retirement. And, and, and one of the things that I found quite shocking and this, this is when I started actually, uh, really investing in my own pension was when a friend happened to mention when I was around her house one day how much you needed in a retirement fund to live on. And I was horrified because it was 700, 000 pounds less than I had in my pension. And I thought, how did, how do you even get to that? Um, I'm happy to say I, I passed that now, but that was because of the action I've taken since. Um, but so I've since learned a lot more about. We have something called retirement living standards in the uk where a body works out how much you need per year for a, a minimum and moderate and a comfortable retirement, whether you're single or in a couple. And it's quite shocking when you look at how, how much money that is versus how much people have in pensions.

Speaker A: But that's a scary thing. Yeah, that's a scary thing, isn't it? It's like with the Australian statistics, because what women have on average is way less than what you need in order to be able to, to live a, uh, decent life even with the age pension. Because there's an age pension that kicks in at a certain level in Australia. And I mean the, the fortunate thing is, is that with superannuation, employers have to pay. Well, it used to be a 10%, it's now gone up incrementally, which is good. So a decent amount gets put into a superannuation account that people can't um, access until they reach a certain age. And that age changes. But it's in their 60s. Um, but it's never enough. It's not enough unless you've really had uh, very high earnings, uh, potential or earnings, practical earnings over the years in order to get that level high enough so that when you do retire you think, oh, I feel comfortable. Comfortable because I, I don't need to rely on the age pension. But too many people still do. And if you only rely on the age pension, it's not going to give you a good standard of living. It's really eking out a living, which is awfully sad, isn't it?

Speaker B: So, and that's the rest of your life. It's not like you get a better job in five years time if you've retired that, that's it. What I will say is that, and I wish I'd known this earlier and acted on it, that if you don't have to invest huge amounts of money in a pension if you start young enough thanks to compound growth.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, even modest amounts that you put in that's extra to what the employer is putting in will massively change your financial fortunes when you're older. Um, but even if you are in your 40s or 50s, you know, one of the messages I really want to try and get across to people through my site is that as I talk to a lot of people who either have very little or nothing is that, is that you can still do a lot Even if you're 55 and if you can put fairly modest amounts away, yes, you're not going to be driving around in a Ferrari when you're 70, but you will have a pot of mind drawn. That could be a small holiday a year, that could be a meal out with friends once a month. That could just transform your life and pay for luxuries that uh, perhaps you couldn't afford otherwise.

Speaker A: Yeah. And also you need to think about how much is enough stuff really because as we do get older our needs are less as well. You don't want to go shopping and buying the latest handbag each time. It is spending time with loved ones and enjoying yourself, you know, just having a good time. And there are so many things that you can do that aren't going to cost a lot. You don't have to have huge overseas holidays. Um, just going somewhere even locally could be pleasurable, um, if you're with the right people as well.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: So when it comes to your new business, which is fabulous and it's called Rich Retiree. Rich Retiree. I like the name. Bit of alliteration and it sounds aspirational and very good too. So tell me, how did Rich Retiree come about and what does Rich Retiree offer women, uh, who may be concerned.

Speaker B: So yeah, so it came about after working with Pensionbee and also kind of like looking at ah, actually um, what was, what challenges did I want in my life and what was I doing and my friends doing to think ahead Retirement. And I decided that there was nothing out there that really spoke to me so I wanted to create something and actually the name was almost like a joke. I was trying to come up with a uh, name for this new site and there are actually, there's four pillars of a good retirement. There's finance, wealth, community and purpose. And when I talk about a rich retirement I, ah, actually not talking about money or just about money, I'm talking about an enriched, you know, a genuinely rich rich life. Um, but when I was trying to think of a name and I was trying it was there's not everything's been taken as you can imagine because I wanted a dot com. And then I thought one of the things that I have seen and I don't know if you've seen as well, but as massively exploded in the last sort of 10 to 15 years is um, the sort of scammy business coaching world and this kind of like I will make you a millionaire and I, I make eight figures a day and all this kind of thing. And I was just, and I also really wanted to move into a world where these people weren't there yet as well. Where it was just, it seemed quite like the early innocent days of tlc. It was just this lovely world of like, you know, people just trying to help people retire. And, um, and, and I was, I couldn't think of a name. And then as a joke I thought, oh, what would one of these kind of scammy coaches, they'll be like, oh, rich retirement, rich retiree. And then it was the rich Atari was available as a dot com, which none of the things I came up with. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, I like the alliteration, like the simplicity of it. I like the meaning actually. Like it wasn't just about money. So I started telling, you know, there's people that I work with, um, uh, and they all hated the name to begin with. And, and, and I, but instead of. Because I do listen to people I work with and if they genuinely hate an idea, then I, I, I, uh, they're gut, institutionally. Right. So I wouldn't pursue it. But I found myself defending this. And the more I defended the name, the more I liked it. And eventually it won them over. And I thought, you know what, it's memorable. Even if you have initially a reaction to it, you're going to remember the name. So that's, that's how it came up as rich Atari. But it, it does actually mean, uh, it's not about making you rich in a financial sense. It's about making sure you have enough money for the life of lifestyle that you want.

Speaker A: You know, what it makes me think of is enrichment. It's really a rich life, isn't it? That's what, because money is important, but once you've got enough, then everything else is extra. But in order to truly be happy, what is it that makes us happy? It's the, uh, love, relationships, friendships, family, good health. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much money you have. If you haven't got your health, health and you're not mobile, you're not going to be happy anyway. And that's not a rich life either. So it's wonderful that you do this holistically, because rich retiree now, you know, talking to you, it really does mean having an enriched life. So that you're happy.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. And you can't, you know, it's hard to be happy if you're lonely. It's hard to be happy. If you wake up and. And there's no purpose to your day. It's hard to be happy if you're in physical pain.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: M. And it's hard to be happy if you're having to choose between do we eat tonight or do we put the heating on in the UK which you know, some people need to do. So. So, uh, absolutely. It is about all of those things, but it's also about one of the things there is. There's no cookie cutter for retirement. You know, some people want to spend their, uh, the winter months in the sun and some, some people want to spend it with grandchildren and some people want to eat out and go to the theater, and then some people want to work on garden centers. Whatever retirement means to you, I want you to be able to be physically able to enjoy it and, um, to be financially able to enjoy it as well. Um, and I think the roots of. I, I think a lot of people kind of think like, I got a working life. Working life ends, retirement starts, and they kind of enter this thing where they haven't thought about what they're going to do and they haven't built a life for themselves. And I think for me, it's like an. A kind of an off on an on ramp. And I'm. I'm already. I'm on 54, but I'm already building the life that's going to see me into my retirement. Um, you know, I'm. I'm a school governor. I'm I'm just actually starting training later this year to be a special police constable, which is a volunteer police officer role. And, and I'm trying to do things that. In. Fill my life out so that, that maybe as I may be going to work less as I get older, my life. I've got a life that I can build up that will mean that I, uh. You know, I'm not someone who can wake up every morning and then not do anything. I have to have purpose. I need to get out of bed for something to do. And so it's about identifying for each person what makes you happy, what are the things of those four pillars, what do you need to retire, and making sure that you start building those before you get there.

Speaker A: Oh, m. Absolutely right. And I can so see you as a police constable, Hannah. You'd make a great police constable. But, you know, it, It. It's so true when you think about it. And this is something that I do in the mornings. I wake up and I get up and I'm very mindful that I can get up on my own.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: That's so important. And then I tootle off to the kitchen and I can make myself a cup of tea, and I can make my hus. Cup of tea, and I can make the cup of tea. I don't need someone else to do it. Um, and then I take my, you know, vitamins and minerals and I look out the window and I can see out the window. These are all like, little things, give me a mindset shift to be so grateful of the little things that we have that we take for granted every single day. And it's funny. And, um, when I'm taking my vitamins, I'm going, I'm taking these vitamins because I deserve it. You know, I'm worth, worth it. And it just makes me feel so happy that I'm, um, independent and I can actually do it. And I think everyone who's getting just, you know, that little bit older and thinking about retirement as well, it's important to be aware of those little things that, you know, when you wake up, you are waking up and what are you waking up too? That's the most important thing. And you're learning something new. You're educating yourself, you're getting up to speed with different ways of doing, doing things and new opportunities. I mean, it's fantastic. So how does rich retiree work? It's a, um, online portal. And what does it provide?

Speaker B: So I, I've gone back to actually what I did when I started Turn Sadie's Club. When I did tlc, I didn't have a business plan. I just started creating content. And as I created that content, I already had a level of knowledge, uh, and awareness. But that grew, um, and the site grew organically and it really. And it was authentic and had genuine purpose. And so I've done the same. With Richard Tyree, I am creating a. I will be creating a course. I want to ultimately create a program that helps women, uh, to, um, audit all those four areas and audit their life and audit themselves and work out what do they need for each of those four areas and, and start putting things in place. So that is, is what I'm ultimately going to be doing. But in the meantime, I'm just enjoying creating content again. You know, like, it's, it's, you know, learning about stuff, you know, finding out for myself what is available out there and building what I hope is a genuinely useful platform, um, so that I want to build this resource that people can come to it and learn about money and about financial planning and Learn about, you know, how much you need a pension or learn about um, how to pick a pension fund or learn about what kind of sports are going to help them or how they make friends in their 50s if they're lonely and all of these things and, and, and how to live for longer and what are the habits that they need to get rid of and what the habits they need to adopt so that they learn things and it becomes a resource that people can share and people can kind of uh, enjoy. So that's it. So basically at the moment I just want to build something that's really useful for people that they can get value from it uh, whilst growing my knowledge. So I can ultimately build a brilliant course that will help people to actually plan the retirement that they want in a realistic way.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's such an important resource um, and source that you're actually creating for people. Because we are, we're an aging population, we're living longer and longer. You know, medical advances are helping us overcome so many medical um, challenges that before would probably take our lives much earlier and so we're living that much longer. We need to know what to do with ourselves as we get older and how to take care of ourselves so that we can live our best life rather than just getting older and fading into obscurity. Because you know what a lot of um, women I've spoken to who are getting that little bit older and getting into their 60s or 70s is that they feel invisible. Mhm. And unheard. And if you build a community of people who are just really growing more mature together, let's say that gaining maturity together and we understand each other, then that really is a community of support. That's so very, very important because I've noticed that a lot of old people as they get, when not old people, people as they get older, they tend to withdraw because they can't do the things that they used to be able to do. But they forget that they can do all this other stuff if only they were aware of it as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it depends hopefully I want to create a, a, a vision for people that, that challenges what retirement is. I'm lucky I think because you know I have great role models. Like my, my grandmother only died this year. She was 100. You know, she lived independently her 90s, um, but she was a, you know, she was a long distance lorry driver, she divorced twice, she ran her own business. She was a tough woman. She, you know, would, she was sheep dipping in her 70s. You know, she was really wonderful and my parents, parents, my, my mum is in her late 70s. She, she went backpack around Malaysia and Indonesia with me last year. We're going to China next year. Um, she's, my parents are really active in the local community. My Dad's in his 80s. He's still like, he goes and fixes things in the church when it goes wrong. You know. My parents, they go traveling still and they've got loads of friends and so I'm, I'm, I feel fortunate in that I have role models. So my idea of old age is like I'm just me, but I'm getting older, I'm not going to do less stuff and I'm not going to expect to do less stuff. But I know that's not everyone's example. So one of the things I really want to do is, is to help people not view retirement as a shutting down or the end of something and that maybe there are some of the things that you used to do that, that physically aren't available to you, but there's lots more that still is, as you mentioned and so give people hopefully a more positive and exciting idea of what their old age might be like.

Speaker A: Mhm M. It's very exciting, isn't it? Because it's really the world of possibilities now for retirees. It's not, you know, you finish working and that's the end. It's you finish working, but this is the beginning of the next phase. And so it's like a second act in a way. And the second act is always exciting, but it is.

Speaker B: But also, you know, you've got, I mean I've got more experience, I've got older, you know, I've got more confidence as I've got older and, and I want to carry that on. You know, I, I, I've more, I've more confidence to stand up with things I believe in, not less. So I feel like, you know, as an older people and I think there's a brilliant book called Breaking the Age Code written by one of the world's top gerontologists. Um, and it's fascinating. It talks about, actually our impression of old age is the biggest driver in how physically healthy we are when we get older. If we think of old people as, as feeble, then we are more likely to die younger. We're more likely to have poor hearing, all of those things. But if we, if our impression is that old people are vital and important, we will have longer and healthier old ages. But one of the things she, she talks about in there is is the idea that, you know, older people should be um, admired for their wisdom, life experience. They should be, you know, we should be asking them their opinion on things because they've got so much more lived experience than us. Um, and you know, the culture in America particularly is very youth focused. So it tends to sort of picture old people as a dribbly people that are walking bent over and you know, haven't got anything valid to offer when actually these people in, in Asia are revered and treated as wise older people that you go to for advice. So you know, I, I prefer that version of being old where the lived experience I have gives me more confidence and more vitality and, and hopefully to play a positive role in society to balance out the wonderful energy and bravery and confidence that the youth has. Because I think all of these things are important for the world but it needs to be balanced by lived experience in the older and, and so hopefully, you know, I will play a part in changing this perception of what old age actually is.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it makes me think about, I'm um, I'm um, half Chinese, half English and so that Chinese culture comes through and you're absolutely right. The, the old grandma, Grandpa, Aba, ah, Popo, Appo, all of them, they're so well revered and respected because of their age, because of their experience. And the families are very much, much involved in the upbringing of the younger ones who come along as well. And they're part of the teaching and the caring and it benefits all the generations because the middle generation gets the help that they may need. The older generations feel still needed. The younger ones learn from their parents, grandparents and great grandparents because they're still involved uh, with each other and it's such a beautiful way to be a. I think in today's society because people tend to travel so much and they move away and they live overseas or they live in a different city. They don't get to see their close family as often as they would have, uh, back in the days when people didn't travel so much. And I think we've missed that connection, don't you think? The connection is gone. And so hopefully through your teachings of rich retiree people would start to hopefully reach out a bit more to the, the older generations within their family who are still with us and um, include them more as well. That would be a wonderful, um, positive benefit to it.

Speaker B: There's Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers. I don't know if you've read that, but there's a chapter in there that talks about A community in America. And they were Italian immigrants and they. So they moved to a town in America, and I think it was up a mountain. Anyway, they moved to this town. And this town had exceptional longevity. They had very low incidences of cancer and heart disease. And they out, uh, outlit, um, other communities. And scientists would study this community to try and work out why. They thought maybe they had like, maybe the rainwater on the mountain, you know, that the mountain stream water was better. It wasn't. Maybe they had better jobs. You know, they couldn't find diet, lifestyle, environment. Nothing gave any clue as to why they were living longer. Um, until society, their society started to change and, and the younger people. So what they were doing is they were living in most generational families. Um, and when people got home from work at night, they. They were manual laborers. They had quite tough jobs. So, so they would come home and they would go and sit in like the kind of town that they replicated, like almost an Italian village. And they would sit in a town square and they would all have dinner, uh, in this town square. And then they would go back to the most generational homes. And then when young people started. Started to move out and live other places or want to live on their own without grandpa and Grandpa m. Grandma living with them, their. Their age and their health went back to national level. So they had the same instances of cancer and heart disease. And basically, I mean, I'm cutting a very long story short, what they concluded was that it was their lifestyle that had almost protected them from these things and then made them healthier because they had all of those things you told, talking about wonderful, all these generations into one. And they have that community of eating together, talking about problems and sharing them. So I think there is. That's why community is so important. And even. Even if you don't have a grandmother alive or, or parents living near, you can build community around you with the people that you know and still enjoy. That wonderful thing where you've got people for different generations and different life experiences and you're entwined in lives and we know things like volunteering and caring for others also helps longevity. So I think it's how you build a community, whether it's a, uh, family community or whether you create one. But the important thing is being part of a community.

Speaker A: Yeah, that sense of belonging. And uh, I think these days, especially because, you know, there's so much work from home and online, this and online, that, that. That community bond where you actually meet face to face and have time together, where it's not rushed. That is missing. And I think what happens when you don't have that community is that we lose the stories, the stories that people can tell. And I think that, I mean, I love telling my grandsons stories of your know, what it was like when Paw Paw was, was younger and we did this and we did that. And I don't know if they're that interested, but hopefully something will stick in their minds that this is the way it was. And you know what was really interesting during COVID Um, my daughter, you know, because we couldn't see each other physically, and even if they were just down the road, I wasn't allowed to see them. We started having these zoom conversations. And my daughters said, mummy, can we please, please start Chinese school? And I said, what do you mean? What do you want with Chinese school? They said, we want to know more about our heritage. And so can you tell us, you know, every, every week or twice a week, let's meet and you tell us stories about when you were growing up, when Uncle Tommy was growing up, my brother, what was it like for Papaw, my mom and my dad, and can we hear all the stories? And that's what we started doing. And it was so lovely because, because they were so interested to find out about their heritage as well. So I think when we actually take time to allow the community spirit to grow and talk to each other and tell those stories, we learn so much from each other. And I hope that over time, especially with what you're doing as well and building a strong sense of community, whether you're within the same family or different family or wherever, uh, if you can share those stories, we can all learn from each other as well.

Speaker B: Sorry. Sorry.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, but then it's not just mentally you feel stronger and you're inspired to look after yourself more so that physically you can be stronger and then you can live longer so that you can enjoy what you're enjoying longer as well.

Speaker B: Definitely, Hannah. And I think another thing about that, and I think your community is like, if you, when you're on your own, your problems are huge because you, it's you thinking about your problems. You're the most important person to yourself. And a really important part of being a part of a community is that you're part of something bigger than you, you know, so your daughters are like, so they're connecting to their Chinese heritage and suddenly it's not just them. They're part of a bigger, uh, something that's bigger than them. And that is really, really important for Our mental health, where we, we belong to something. Um, but that something is bigger than just us. And I think, you know, so much of our life today is very self, self centered and centered on ourselves. And, you know, we all go around carrying the weight of the world on our shoulders and no one understands our problems because we are utterly unique. And actually none of us really are that unique, but we're all part of different communities. So, you know, for your daughters, being part of your family, but also being part of, of the ch. You know, global Chinese community, being part of a work community, even, you know, I play pickleball on a Tuesday night, and that's a really lovely community. And you feel like you belong to something and it's not just you. And I think that's a really important part of community as well.

Speaker A: That must be a very, very strong part of your rich retiree program. And so, Hannah, I'm, um, sure everyone will be very interested to find out where they can find it. Is it richretiree.com Let me see. Yeah, we go or we go through talentedladiesclub.com first.

Speaker B: No, you can just go straight to richardari.com. yes, because of course, as we know, I managed to get the do.

Speaker A: Lucky you. That was a coup, wasn't it? You must, you must have done a happy dance when you got that rich retiree. Yes, I've got it. Well, I think it sounds so, so good, and I think it's really timely as well, because with the aging population, there are so many women who are concerned, how am I going to do this financially? Uh, what about my relationships? What about my health? What about my community? And it's all, you know, spirituality also comes into it as well. And it's that belief that we belong to something that's more than just ourselves, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. And you know, how lucky was I that I tweeted about Bondi all those years ago and you hopped up on and started your, you know, giving me your 2 cents worth about what you thought about Sydney Beaches. And then, um. It's funny, isn't it? I don't even know how the conversation kept going, but we were tweeting each other back and forth for a long time. It's like, oh, yes, we better connect.

Speaker B: But that was back when Twitter. When Twitter was actually quite social and in the. Yeah, uh, much m. Earlier days.

Speaker A: Yes, I know. I think things have changed a lot now, but it's been such a delight talking to you, Hannah. We can, we can carry on this conversation for Another two hours. But I think for now, this is, this is part one of actually part three, part 3.1. And it's not going to be another seven years before I interview you. Okay. I think, I think another, another few months and then find out how rich retirees going would be a very good idea. Yes. Will you come on again?

Speaker B: I love talking to you, Jane. You know,

Speaker A: well, I think it's lovely and definitely it's not going to be seven years, uh, before we reconnect yet again. But thank you so much for today, all of, um, the links to find Hannah and connect with her on LinkedIn as well you'll find in my show notes on your career podcast. And, um, thanks for listening, everybody and I will see you next time. Do you want to leave us with some parting words, Hannah?

Speaker B: Uh, no, just to say first, say thank you so much, Jane, for inviting me on. I've had a lovely time as always. But just to everyone else, just plan your retirement. But don't just plan money, plan what you want to do. Um, the world is your oyster.

Speaker A: Oh, it is, it is. And as long as you take action, it can happen. So thank you everybody and we will see you next time. Want more career inspiration? Go to jane jacksoncoach.com and take my free career quiz to find out out how to gain career clarity and the confidence to go for that job you'll love. Or book a complimentary zoom chat with me, Jane jacksoncoach.com I'll see you soon.