EP 61 - Ben Slater

Speaker A: I think the primary failures you have as a leader tend to be with people. Right. You know, mistakes in terms of hiring, waiting too long to move on from someone who isn't a fit or the business isn't a fit for them. Maybe the one I'll call out is again, as you say, from earlier in the career when I was, uh, all singing, all dancing, head of marketing, but marketing team of one. Right. We sent four of the same email to everyone. Right. One after the other. And it seems like, uh, a small tactical mistake. Right. And these things happen. But, uh, I think it taught me a few things. Right? It taught me the importance of empathy when people make mistakes, whatever those mistakes might be, because everyone can make them. Uh, and it also taught me the importance of authenticity in building a relationship with your customer.

Speaker B: Ben, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thanks so much. Excited to be here.

Speaker B: So, growing up, what is one thing you wanted, uh, to do when you were an adult? Like what, like, ideal one, Ideal job or dream job that you wanted to have?

Speaker A: I was pretty fascinated by history growing up. Um, definitely bookworm and totally fascinated by different periods of antiquity. In particular the Byzantine Empire, uh, and the transition from the Byzantine Empire through to the Ottoman Empire. I, uh, think I read countless books about this, uh, growing up.

Speaker B: Hold on. How old were you at this stage?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So it's probably a teenager. Probably a teenager. I think, uh, you know, when I was younger than that, probably wanted to do the same. The same things as every small boy. Right. You know, some kind of, um, army, um, soldier, I would guess at a very young age. Um, but it's a period I've always found fascinating. And for me, uh, I probably didn't seriously consider working as an academic or, um, archaeologist, anthropologist. But it, I think, gave me a lot of curiosity around why things are the way they are today. And the singular thread that often flows through history. Um, so, you know, it shaped some of the decisions that I made. You know, I studied history at university, and, um, it's always been something that I've enjoyed digging into from a pleasure standpoint. But, yeah, that's what comes to mind.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's super interesting because, like, um, you know, like, obviously we're going to unpack your journey in just a second, but I mean, um, and you kind of alluded to it just now, but, like, there was probably a lot. There were probably a lot of, like, transferable, uh, learnings and things that you probably got from your. From your education and just from. From your interest in history that probably translated into. Into marketing because like typically we would, you know, um, meet folks who have like, you know, a, um, communications background or even like a film and broadcast background. Uh, or, uh, actually very, very little of them actually had a marketing background per se. Uh, but I'm curious to know, like, what were some of the things that kind of translated into suppose like, yeah, your, your marketing career as it unfolded.

Speaker A: Okay. I never grew up sort of thinking that I would end up in marketing. And part of the reason is I've always been someone who has thought of a career as a set of sliding doors. Um, and you have these opportunities to walk through a different door and your decision is whether you walk through that door or not. The thing that fascinated me when I entered the workforce was the act of company building. Um, and you know, I spent a bit of time working in finance, a bit of time working in pr, but what was compelling to me was the mechanics of building and growing a company. Right. And you know, I, I've spent a lot of time kind of in the early days all the way through to where I m. Am today working in tech and startups. And marketing just happened to be the conduit. Right. Through which I've been involved in that type of company building. Um, and obviously over time it's something that I've enjoyed and I think is an incredibly important part of how businesses tell their story, go to market and ultimately build value.

Speaker B: And speaking of which, like, for folks who may not have met you before, do you want to tell us a little bit about what you're doing today?

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. So I am the SVP of marketing at bmari. Um, BMARY is a company that really helps organizations and we're talking kind of fortune 500 type organizations with every stage of the talent life cycle. So that's helping them understand the skills they have today in their business, the skills they might need and the gap between those and then giving them all the tools they need to either go and hire that, ah, talent externally in the market or upskill people internally to fill the gap. So, yeah, we work with, um, yeah, really a. Who serve the Fortune 500.

Speaker B: Love it. And I know on the side you, you do a bit of, a bit of advising, uh, and startup coaching as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. In all my free time. No, I look, I think. And for the benefit of your audience, I joined Bimari as employee 4 or 5. Right. So I've done the kind of dark nights of the soul. Right. That are the early days of company building. And you know, I've had a lot of people in my career that have been generous and kind with their time, um, and where there are opportunities to do the same. That's something that's exciting to me.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Um, and we'll unpack a lot of that in just a second. But, uh, to jump into the key moments, maybe even like earlier on in your journey, what's been one failure that you can share with us?

Speaker A: I think. Building a company from the ground up, I think is, uh, almost an exercise in failure in many ways. And I was only partially joking when I said dark nights of the soul, right. When you're a few people sitting around, uh, a coffee pot, right. There are a lot of moments which, yeah, it feels like there's moments which feel like they're full of existential dread. And, you know, in our early journey as a business, there were moments where, you know, we, we nearly ran out of money, right. We didn't even make payroll. And I think through force of will and, you know, we have fantastic founders and CEO, uh, um, through force of will, we have always, um, found a way to, to take the next stage. What I, I struggle a little bit, actually. While we're on this topic with this idea of, of celebrating failure, for me, we want. You want to celebrate winning, right? But you need an environment where it is okay to fail, where you're encouraging people to take risk. Uh, but I don't want to lose sight of the fact that the goal is to win, right? And the goal is to succeed and move forward. Um, I think the primary failures you have as a leader tend to be with people, right? You know, mistakes in terms of hiring, you know, waiting too long to move on from someone who isn't a fit or the business isn't a fit for them. But maybe the one I'll call out is again, as you say, from earlier in the career when I was a sort of all singing, all dancing head of marketing, but marketing team of one, right. And, you know, we were sending out an important communication to our database and, you know, we were really focused on thought leadership, right. So for a small business, that database was still quite large. It was probably still 20,000 people. Um, and this is again, very early days of my current company and through. And these things happen to anyone who's been inside market automation systems. We sent four of the same email to everyone, right. One after the other. And it seems like, uh, a small tactical mistake, right? And these things happen. But I think it taught me a few things, right? Taught me the importance of empathy when people make mistakes, whatever those mistakes Might be because everyone can make them. And it also taught me the importance of, uh, authenticity in building a relationship with your customer. Because we sent out an apology after that email. Sort of thoughtfully written, you know, a mea culpa. Right.

Speaker B: Was that a fifth email then?

Speaker A: Yeah, through the email. Um, but it actually ended up driving us revenue, right. And helping us create more positive responses, uh, from our audience than, you know, our typical email would have done. Right. So I think for me it's a, it was a great reminder that, look, anyone can make a mistake, right? And you know, I've always held myself to a standard of, you know, I need to be the leader, I need to make sure I set the example. You know, I didn't have room for mistakes. So I think it was a good humbling moment. Um, but it was also a great reminder of the power of authenticity in terms of communication.

Speaker B: And I think it probably has a. So I'll tell you a quick story. Like speaking of startups and like, uh, earlier days, um, this was about two years ago. Uh, I was part of, uh, our company Chopcast has been part of a startup accelerator and we went on stage to talk about what we've been doing like the last couple of months and stuff like that. Uh, we were working with a great presentation coach and we even had like slides, I uh, mean speaker notes that were facing the um, speaker. And we basically had every reason, or at least I had every reason not to fail. I literally had what I needed to say right there on the screen. And when I got on stage, I was presenting, everything was going fine. And then at one point, in an effort to like make, continue, like not break my eye contact with the audience, I really tried to remember this one stat from which was literally like at the back of like you could see it on the slides, but I wasn't looking at the slides, I was just trying to look at them. And basically I ended up. It uh, felt like an eternity, but I basically didn't. Uh, I started for about maybe 10 seconds or something like that, which felt like an eternity. And what ended up happening is people started clapping for me, maybe out of sympathy. Uh, and then I finally, you know, looked at the slot, at the speaker notes again and I was like, oh yeah, 30% right? That's, that's the number that I was trying to, that I was trying to say. And after that there was like, you know, some networking and stuff like that. And I was literally asking everyone because I'm such a self conscious person. I was like, hey, like, was my Fuck up like that bad? Or was it, was it okay? And they were like, actually, that's probably the highlight of your talk. And I was like, why? And they're like, no, because first of all, when you stop talking for 10 seconds, like anyone who maybe was not paying attention was finally brought back into the room because they're like, whoa, why did they stop talking? And then the other piece is like, it was. And I guess more to, more to the, to the, to the point that you were making is that it, um, was a humbling moment. It was almost like a moment of uh, connection as it were, where people are like, hey, this person is a human. Uh, and you know, one, one, one friend of mine said, hey, you know, everything was actually going great up until then. And it was like that moment actually made us like connect with you more as opposed to like, you know, being like, you know what I mean? Like, trying to be like overly slick or overly perfect, which has good intentions, but ultimately is not something that would resonate with people the same way as you saying, hey, um, you know, I messed up, here's what I've learned kind of thing.

Speaker A: I love that. It's a great story.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, thanks for sharing. So, shifting gears, uh, once. And actually, no, before we shift gears, one more thing. Just on what you're talking about, I totally agree that like, um, you know, this idea of like celebrating failures can sometimes be uh, taken a little bit like, um, out of, out of context. But I feel like, you know, it's always interesting to learn about the uh, the learnings behind the failures and kind of like how that has, has impacted like one's journey, like since, since that has happened. And speaking of journeys though, like, what's been one book for you that really had a strong impact on, on how you operate?

Speaker A: Yeah. So, uh, I'll give you maybe a non traditional one. I think there's some fantastic business books out there and you know, one that I think is great and I reread every few years is High Output Management by Andy Grove. Um, but I'll give you a one that's slightly off the wall. So there's this fantastic four part, soon to be five part biography of Lyndon B. Johnson by an author called Robert Caro, who is widely regarded as one of the preeminent, uh, historical histor. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I knew it was going to be a history book.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But look, it's, it's this. And I knew nothing about Lyndon Johnson going into this. Um, but it's this incredible study both in, um, in the man. But also in terms of the pursuit of power. Right. And it's a period of history that's obviously very rich in the U.S. um, and you know, I would recommend to anyone who's listening if they have a lot of time on their hands because, you know, I won't lie to you, each book is, I think it's about a thousand pages. That's probably about 4,000 pages of content. So it's a lot of content. Um, but it is an unbelievable book and an unbelievable story and an unbelievable example of the power of grit and determination. Um, so, you know, I think about lessons that I might have learned from it. You know, I don't have a sort of power at all costs type of mentality like Lyndon might have, um, done, but it did teach me a lot about grit and persistence. Right. And about the power of hard work around a particular goal or objective and also the power around relationships. Right.

Speaker B: Do you have an example of, uh, how you may have applied some of that?

Speaker A: Look, I think you have to have an unbelievable amount of grit and perseverance when you are building a company. And look, we're at significant scale now. We're post series D. We, you know, Global Unicorn.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: If you want to use that as a moniker. Um, but over time, you immunize yourself to success and failure to some degree. Right? Because to, to stay level and to, to make a step forward every day, you need to avoid having low lows and high highs. So to some, to some degree, you're numb to it. Right.

Speaker B: Um, but I think the, even the good stuff. Yeah, Yeah, I think.

Speaker A: And it's a problem to some degree. Right. It means you don't celebrate success as much as you should. Right. Um, and that, that's, that's something that I need to do a better job of because for me it's, I always have a sort of day one mentality. Right. Okay, well, that's great. Well, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? So I don't know whether it's necessarily a learning that I've applied from that book, but it's certainly a. Something that I see in myself that is similar to, to the story.

Speaker B: There's so much to unpack there, Ben. And I mean, just to take it step by step. So first of all, because, you know, there is, um, there is a stoic, uh, tone to, to, to what you're sharing. And I wonder where do you draw the. For folks tuning in, like, where do you draw the line between you know, keep it keeping a level head, as it were, in terms of like, you know, uh, uh, you know, having control over like the high highs and low lows or at least like how you, how you perceive them or how you react to them. And obviously, um, the very real impact of burnout, of actually not taking time to perhaps celebrate how far you've come,

Speaker A: um, you're making a really important point. And I think particularly as a leader in a startup or a scale up or really any business, um, no one is looking after you, right? No one is looking out for you. And as someone who has been on the shores of burnout before, you know, it did take me a while to learn that and to preserve time for myself, prioritize health. Um, you know, for me, exercise is a big driver of my success and my mental clarity. But it took me a while to learn that, you know, no one's, no one's looking out for you. Right. You've got to do it yourself. So to kind of come back to your question, I do think burnout is a real thing. And I think if, if you have an attitude, whether it's learned or whether it's inherent, a little bit of both, where you're not spiking, either way, it takes you longer to notice it, Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And for me, I think it maybe took me a little too long to notice it. Right. And then I had to kind of bring myself back. And um, I think it's something to be aware of. Right. Everyone's different, everyone approaches these things differently. Um, and you just need to be aware of how you are. But I do think that lesson is a really important one. You need to figure out your playbook for success and you need to invest in that. I think part of being a successful leader is having that playbook for sure.

Speaker B: It's bringing to mind a concept, uh, I learned about in, uh, Adam Grant's book Give and Take. And he was talking about the concept of burnout and he was telling a story that I've shared before, which there was a teacher who was, um, teaching at a school. Uh, the students weren't really appreciating what she had to give and rather than, and she was feeling burnt out, but rather than taking a break or something like that, she actually started doing even more work by volunteering at this school, uh, I guess in like a charity capacity and where the dynamic was totally different. You know, students super appreciative and so on. And as a result that actually gave her so much more energy for her to go back and do her original job. And um, Adam Grant was kind of making the point as I've understood it, that like the solution to burnout isn't always necessarily to uh, take take a break, even though taking breaks and looking after oneself is really important. But I think he kind of just like expanded the mean, the definition of looking after oneself. It's not just taking a break or something like that, but rather doing something that is fulfilling to you. And I've had um, a micro experience with that, um, about two weeks ago where I've actually worked like seven days, um, seven days, so through the weekend as well, thinking that originally it's because I wanted to catch up on a lot of things. But what I ended up realizing is that it actually made me calmer.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And it made me more relaxed because I just felt like I had more control, more, more time to manage everything. And yeah, it just made me realize that like, um, although burnout is a real thing, the solutions to it are sometimes somehow unconventional.

Speaker A: Um, I guess 100%. And I think the great example from the story of Madam Grant is that probably helped that person rediscover their why. Right. And it's incredibly important not to doubt the power of having a strong, compelling why, like a personal purpose. And for me, I've always tried to make sure that my personal purpose aligns with the purpose of the business that I work at. I think that's, that's where so much of this, uh, motivation, at least on my side comes from. Right.

Speaker B: And can I, can I, can I ask you about that M real quick? Because it's interesting because there's a lot of talk around how you need to find a why that's sort of like bigger than, bigger than yourself. And you were talking earlier about something super important, which is that uh, specifically for a lot of folks tuning in who, who are, you know, in um, a startup scale up, sort of like environment. Uh, no one, no one's coming to save them, to your point. And so the why becomes particularly important. I was curious how you've constructed your, your own wire, if you can share it.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think for me there's a, uh, there's probably two levels to it. There's one which is the abstract, which I want it, which is that I want to feel like I'm doing something important. Right? Something that is going to make the world a better place, help people, support people, etc. The second kind of, if you drill down on M, that is there's enormous amounts of inequity in the world. And there's a lot of ways that you can approach that. Right. For me, correcting some of those imbalances is something that's a really powerful mission. And finding a business that's taking bites out of that was. Was important to me. And, you know, the way we approach it at B. Marie is, you know, talent is everywhere, but opportunity is not equally distributed.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Right. And so many decisions around hiring or progression are based on where someone went to school. Right. Their, uh, their cv. Right. Their punch list of achievements, not on their skills and their potential. And the goal for us is to reverse that. Right. It's to help organizations understand not just who someone is today, but who they could be in the future. Right. And to make decisions around hiring or, you know, promotion based on skill and potential. Help people understand that they might be a great fit for careers they've never even thought of. Right. Help people find, um, find jobs or stay engaged at their business because there's a new opportunity that isn't, you know, moving from manager one to manager two.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: That for me is exciting. And then obviously, you know, you're able to see the material impact not just on businesses who were able to, you know, be more productive or hire faster or save cost, etcetera, but on the people behind that. Right. You know, careers are so central to all of our lives. If you can be part of helping someone find the right career for them. Yeah. That's something that I find inspirational.

Speaker B: I love that. Uh, and just to reflect on that as well, from, from my side, like, I feel the message that I'm. That I'm. That I'm getting from you is feeling like your work has value as you're. As you were saying, and feeling that kind of ties in with like, anti burnout where like, if you can see the sort of like, positive ripple effect of what it is that, that you are bringing to the table, um, how much. How hard you've worked almost becomes irrelevant somehow because you feel like, listen, like it's, it's been worth it. And I remember with Chopcast, uh, we've had some, uh, pretty dark days where like, you'd open up like the um, you know, our, like, support inbox, and it's just complaints over complaints and like, things that need to be fixed and bugs and everything you could imagine. Like, we've, We've, uh, we've seen a flavor of it at one point in time over the last five years. And sometimes, you know, uh, you know, naturally, as, like me and my co founder, naturally, we take it to heart, right? And it's like, right, listen, we'll do right by you. We'll fix this. Um, and sometimes they're like, by the way, you know, it's. I just want to say that this is, you know, other than this one issue, like, we've actually been getting a lot of value from, you know, from the work that we do or someone else who would say, hey, I just want to leave you guys a review because this has actually helped me save a lot of time or blah, blah, blah. And it's so funny because, like, these things literally when it's. When it's 10pm when it's past midnight and you're like doing these things, uh, these little things literally do keep you going. Um, and I don't think those people realize how impactful they're. Because for them it could be like four or five words like, btw, thanks, this has been helping me. But for us, it's like they just sent us a love letter or something because, uh, it just has such an impact and all of a sudden we just forget about how long we've been working or how hard we've been working and we just fixate on that. One or two stories where people went out of their way to say, you know what, this has actually been adding value to us. So, uh, yeah, definitely, definitely follow you on that. Before we move on to the next key moment though, um, I'll be remiss if I didn't mention this book, um, the, uh, Long Road to Freedom. Basically Nelson Mandela's, uh, autobiography. Uh, it's not a thousand pages, about 600 to 700.

Speaker A: So like a light read. Fantastic.

Speaker B: Yeah, light read, you know. Yeah. This was the longest book I've ever read. And I've read it, uh, recently. I'm like a. I read at the speed of a snail. So it took me like three months to finish the book. But it, it was. If you're looking for like, once again, like a, um, an account of like, grit and uh, perseverance and so on, you know, uh, you might like that. Books. I just wanted to share that. Sweet. So, speaking of which, who's been one person that's instrumental in your professional journey so far?

Speaker A: I think if we are. If we're looking at this as someone who has shaped the mentality, mindset and helped me become the leader that I am today. I'm actually going to go a little earlier. Right. And, uh, I'll pick my parents. Right. I think the reason for doing so is they've both taught me very Distinct things. Right. So my dad is an entrepreneur. Um, and I think from him I've learned the importance of risk taking and the importance of pursuing what you're passionate about. And my, my, My mom is the. Is the kindest person I know. Right. And I think she's taught me a lot of empathy. And as a leader, I think that's one of the most important traits that you can have is empathetic leadership. Right. You know, our ability to be successful relies on how we understand the people that we work with. Right. And how we can tailor our communication style to help. Help them, uh, you know, help them either take the next step in their career, help us be better understood in terms of communication. Um, so, yeah, I, I think, uh, I've decided to go. Go back a little further because I think, uh, they both had obviously a very material impact.

Speaker B: I love it. Um, you mentioned your dad was an entrepreneur. What, what was the nature of his work?

Speaker A: So he started a couple of businesses that were on the debt side of real estate. Um, so helping. Helping kind of from a commercial real estate project standpoint, by sourcing, you know, debt to help fund those projects.

Speaker B: Got it. I, I wonder what was the nature of his, uh, his journey. And the reason why I ask is because, um, like even looking at like my own family, my grandfather was, uh, an entrepreneur or he, he, uh, he was in the process of becoming an entrepreneur, but unfortunately he passed away, uh, prematurely when he had a lot. Speaking of debt, he had a lot of debt, uh, to pay. And it wasn't exactly like a successful entrepreneurial story, but just because of his, um, his goodwill and like his uh, uh, you know, the way he was building relationships and so on, like always forgiven sort of thing. But it kind of left this feeling inside, at least my family, where it's like, hey, you know, entrepreneurship, very risky. Uh, and so when me and my, uh, my brother, who now co founder, uh, still brother, started the company, you know, uh, it was definitely, at least in our own family, like, it was met with a lot of like, sort of resistance and stuff. And I wonder, given all the things that your dad may have went through, I wonder if his advice to you is like, hey, like, are you sure you want to do this?

Speaker A: It's, it's interesting. Like there's a, ah, level of risk aversion that people have for their children, having kind of seen the journey. Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, his advice to me is not necessarily always, you know, go find the highest building and jump off. Right. Often it's around protecting to the downside. Um, so yeah, I think it's a good observation.

Speaker B: Fair enough, fair enough. Uh, and I guess like in terms of uh, like you mentioned your mom as well. Like how has that kind of helped you in your, in your leadership style, like the way that you deal with people and uh, and build relationships.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's around having empathy in difficult moments and difficult conversations I think has been the um, main learning or the main thing that I apply.

Speaker B: Fair enough, fair enough. We've actually had uh, Julie estad who's the CMO at 15, uh, 5 on the show in the past and she was talking about uh, directness as a form of uh, direct feedback as a form of kindness. I think there's a lot of talk around, you know, how do you, how do you sugarcoat something? How do you you know, send a compliment sandwich to the other person as it were. Uh, and you know, she was kind of making or what I've understood from her is that like there is a way to build empathy. There is a way to you know, genuinely add value to the other person. It's actually through direct feedback. And I was curious like what's your take on that?

Speaker A: Total 100. Agree with that. I'm not a big fan of the problem and sandwich. Right. And there's less kind um, uh, terms for that as well. I think direct and clear feedback is the kindest way of communicating to um, kindness, the most empathetic way of communication with one caveat. You need to have a foundation of trust um, to be able to do that effectively.

Speaker B: Makes sense. I think when, when people see that it's coming from a uh, a source of, or a person that cares about your has your best interest in mind basically, uh, that that makes all the difference for sure. So shifting gears once more, what's been one decision, maybe even closer to like modern day time. That was a hard one that you've had to make recently.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'll um, I'll pick a recent one and I'll pick one that's more tied in with uh, core mandate of marketing. Just, just to give folks uh, a little more color. I think there's this you know, lie that we're all told as, as marketers that there are certain things that we have to do.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And in the world of enterprise marketing trade shows, conferences are ah, one of those things. Right. Like you, you have to be there. You're going to be conspicuous by your apps. Right. Um, you know there are shows. Yeah, exactly. There are shows that yes, there's no roi. But you know, well, we really just have to do this. You know, I think for me the answer is that you don't have to do it. Um, and you know, if we look at where the world is today, right, you know, we are, we're out of this period of, you know, growth at all costs type of mentality. We're out of the period where, you know, the, the CFO is ringing me up, asking me to, to spend more. Right. Um, and you know, we're in a period where, you know, obviously growth is still the 100%, the uh, the primary objective, but getting there in a responsible and efficient way is the uh, is the most aggressive thing now. You know, within a commercial organization, people attach a lot of value to these events. Right. And people want and have grown to expect bimari having the biggest booth or one of the biggest booths at these types of events. This year we decided to cut a lot of events. We decided to scale back our presence at events in general. And it's an entirely numbers and ROI based decision, looking at the channels that give us the most value. And it's also a decision that's tied into wanting to invest more in our own events, in our own community versus rent, access to other people's communities. So the spend is not necessarily shifting hugely, it's just being reallocated. Um, but that's a tough decision when m. People are used to something and it requires really focused, clear communication, um, to make people understand the why and why it matters for them.

Speaker B: Got you. So, uh, is it a binary thing for yourselves or is it just a matter of scaling it down?

Speaker A: Uh, I think it's a, it's a little bit of both. Right. There are some events which I would bucket in that, you know, this is the most important thing, right, for us to attend, um, that we're not going to. Um, but then there are some that we've scaled back. Um, I'll give you another one as well. So, you know, obviously, um, over the past couple of, couple of year, I guess or so, um, you know, there's obviously been a lot of news and attention around the layoffs of different technology companies that made, um, you know, we were not immune from that as well. Right. So we unfortunately had to let, uh, a portion of the B. Marie workforce go. And that's again a really challenging decision and it's not one that's taken lightly. Um, and those are, those are difficult conversations. Right. And obviously you're, you're, you're making decisions that you believe are in the best Interest of the company. Um, but again, really difficult things to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's uh. Yeah, I mean I, I think like there's. It's definitely a wave of. Or yeah, a lot of companies have definitely not been immune to it as you mentioned.

Speaker A: So uh.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, that's. And I think it's still, it's still going on. I think it like slowed down a little bit. Uh, one would hope. But it's definitely something that's I think top of mind for, for people in terms of like a decision that um, that has to be made and um, going. Going back to the events as well. Like, I think it's interesting what you said because sometimes people would do activities just because they feel, you know, as you mentioned, they just have to do it. Uh, especially when it is something that is uh, flashy or sort of like public facing. Sometimes the question of like ROI could be uh, a little, a little bit like um, hazier to answer. But you know, it gets a pass just because it's what you're supposed to do. So I definitely appreciate, uh, appreciate you sharing that for sure. In terms of, in terms of like how you guys are thinking about events, um, in terms of the final uh, key moment that I wanted to ask you about, what's been one. Learning that you felt was like a constant over the last 8 ish 9 years that you've been at Bimari so far that, that you've, you've kind of like held close to heart.

Speaker A: I think the. There's an incredible power in community, in business and you know, you see this very prominently in B2C businesses. Right. People want to be part of a tribe. Whether that's you know, Lululemon, right. Whether that's um, you know, drinking, um, Liquid Death. Have you come across that?

Speaker B: Right, yeah.

Speaker A: The water brand, uh, to buy into a band and buy into a set of behaviors. But the Same exists in B2B and it's an area that we invested in very early, uh, as an organization. The way we built Pipeline brand relationship awareness early on was through thought leadership, through content, through um, building an audience and then really being thoughtful around how we continued those relationships. And it's always been at the heart part of what we've done as uh, an organization. And today this manifests itself in Spark Live, which is the annual event that we run within the talent and HR space. And we've built that to ah, an online community of over 10,000 people. Um, and that's an online event of over 10,000 people. Um, and you Know, it's a moment in time where people come together to learn about what matters in the industry, to hear from, you know, their peers about, uh, you know, where people are investing, you know, what, what is front of mind, the learning more recently is that, you know, community does not always correlate with size. Right. And you can create a lot more value, particularly on the event side, with focus. So although we scaled the event to uh, as I said, Over 10,000 last year, we ran a more focused event, uh, uh, so just over 3,000. And it was infinitely more valuable. Uh, the feedback was better, the engagement was better, the numbers were really through the roof because we were a lot more focused on connecting a specific audience with their specific content. Um, but look, for us, these are all things that we invest a lot in the bimary. We have a lot of different types of thought leadership, a lot of different types of content, uh, m. Really across every medium. But it's not the content that matters, it's the connection you're building with people.

Speaker B: And actually just on that as well. Ben, I think it's um, sometimes specifically for new and upcoming leaders. Uh, in marketing, it's very clear to see the apparent success of something like that. I, uh, know you guys have the event coming up, uh, in June, uh, uh, in terms of Spark Live, I'm curious if you can tell us a little bit about the early days or maybe the very first time that you've actually, um, set out to build community, as it were. And how did you go from zero, um, to that first X, Uh, because I think a lot of times people would attend some events like that and then they would get some inspiration and decide, you know what, well, we want to start investing in this as well. But sometimes it could be tough to figure out, like how to. Well, two things, how to start, number one, but also how to justify it being inevitably, perhaps inevitably small at the beginning. Uh, but I really like what you said because it kind of reminds me of the 1000 True Fans concept of like, how it's really about the depth of connections as opposed to like the, you know, you know what I mean? Like total number of attendees, which might be a little bit, um, of a vanity metric compared to what really matters.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And look, the reality is it takes, uh, consistency and patience because, you know, when you start, like if we go back to the very early days. Right. If you're uh, an early stage business, you know, no one cares, to put it bluntly. Right, sure. Uh, you don't have a brand. People don't know who you are. And, you know, there's so many, uh, so many draws or pulls on people's attention. So you have to really focus on providing value, right? Creating content that could be good enough for someone to pay for providing, right? Making it actionable, making it, um, really helpful for your target audience. So that was the big investment that we made. And, you know, we were very consistent with publishing content. We built a pretty successful newsletter in the early days. You know, I've had people kind of come up to me and sort of say, oh, my God, you know, you're Ben Slater. I get your newsletter every week. Like, it's fantastic. Um, yeah, and like, that was, that was again, like, great validation, right? Like, you know, you don't necessarily, people don't necessarily send that via email, right? But when you see that and you're gonna get that feel for things in person, you realize that things are starting to work, right? So I think we're all, we're all looking for the next big quick fix, right? And, um, this is one of those things that takes time, right? And it takes investment, and it does pay off if you get it right and if you get that investment right. But I do think you need to think about what, what is different for you. Like, how are you going to say something that is not the same as everyone else? Um, and I think content is getting so commoditized, particularly with, you know, chat GPT, right, and blog articles in 15 minutes and things like that, that you know, that there needs to be a flight to quality. And if you want to use this as a mechanism to build an audience and build a connection with people, you know, you need to, you need to be thoughtful about how you do it. Um, the most successful businesses in the world are ones that have done this well, right? That have built a community, that have built a brand and that have built a connection with their audience around some, um, type of content. So it's not a, it's not an easy investment, but it's one that, if you get right, will be, will be significant to your.

Speaker B: It is, it is worthwhile, for sure. Um, yeah, that, that makes total sense. And I guess in closing, um, the, the Spark Live event that you guys have coming up is all about celebr intelligence, which I think a lot of folks. I'd love if you can talk a little bit about it, because I think a lot of folks are, uh, you know, worried a little bit about, you know, what's going on with AI, uh, what, what's going to happen to, um, to their industries. And I'm curious, like, what is bimaries, uh, take on it? So I, this is kind of like the, the direct question off the back of that. It's related to something that you were talking about earlier, which I think you've kind of alluded to a little bit, which is like, specifically when you are in a competitive space, how do you go about, um, category design and really nailing the art of positioning, as it were? I, uh, don't know why, but I feel like potentially this could be Bimari's way of going towards that. So I'd love to hear a bit more about it.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I'll answer the first question first. There's so much media attention right now around AI, right? Um, if you were to go to a business conference of any kind, um, to me, I would, I would be shocked if there wasn't the word AI on someone's stand. Right? It's, it's, it's everywhere. But I think we get caught up in talking about the vehicle, right, the car, versus talking about the destination, where we're going. And for me, the destination is, is, is, is the impact that we can have on, on the human. Right, Actually with these types of, of technology, right. For me, what we're doing is we're taking insights and analytics and data and we're making it invisible. What do I mean by that? I mean that we are surfacing the things that people need in the flow, uh, of work in a way that is conversational, in a way that is highly interactive. People don't have time to learn, uh, new skills right now. People don't have time to learn new types of technology. So when we talk about human intelligence, what we're talking about is, you know, the power of AI and the importance of AI in surfacing the insights that people need to make better decisions about how they, how they, about the different mandates of their role, right? And obviously within our sector that is, you know, making the right decision on who to hire, making the right business decision around, you know, where to open a new office based on the density of skills that might exist in a certain area, making the right decision around, um, you know, the potential cost of a, of a talent strategy, um, or the risk that not having a strategy in place might lead to significant business objectives, um, you know, a candidate making the right decision about their career. I think for us to be successful, AI needs to be so deeply embedded in processes that people don't notice it. And I want to come back to what are we trying to achieve here. We're trying to make the world better for humans. We're not trying to replace them or change them. We're trying to provide augmented intelligence. Um, the second question around category creation, look, this has been something that's been a big focus for us at Bimary from the time we started the business. Uh, I don't think it's the right thing for every business. It requires a significant investment in terms of content, messaging, thoughtfulness, and there's a sustained requirement to repeat a message in the market to slowly build resonance around it. For us, it's been effective because we are in a very fast changing space, right? And the idea of talent, the importance of skills to a business has been moving up the chain, the decision making chain within organizations, right? So when we started the organization, um, however many years ago it was HR was a very tactical stakeholder inside large businesses, right? There was a lot of conversation at Triumph around how HR needed a seat at the table. Now HR has maybe the most important seat at the table, right? Because every government, company, society is going through this existential challenge around the skills that they have versus the skills that they need. So investing in category creation for us has been a great way of broadcasting that the industry needs to change, right? That, you know, there's this promised land that organizations need to be operating in to be able to solve these skill challenges. And you know, when we talk about category, we talk about this idea of talent lifecycle management. Because in general these talent processes, whether they're internal or external, are handled in a siloed way, right? So you are, or you make a promotion or someone leaves your business. But in a world where we have these significant skills gaps to close, you need to have a far more holistic approach which starts from, um, okay, what do we have and what do we need? And then how do we have this connected set of activities from the first touch point we have with a candidate all the way through to when they become an alumni. That helps us, uh, build a workforce that has those capabilities. And that connected talent life cycle is something that obviously we're excited about at Bemoer.

Speaker B: I love it. Um, in terms of, and I think you touched on something, a couple of super important things. One of them is the fact that this is not just like an overnight decision that a company does like this calls for a significant investment for you to be able to really cement that. Uh, what is your take on. Um, I've been reading a lot about this personally. Um, this notion of being, being, being first is better Than being better. Uh, and you know, and on the same wavelength, like being able to create a category and name yourself first in it as it were, uh, is a lot more effective than saying hey, we're in this bigger category. But we are and we're, you know, um, a little bit better than so and so, uh, was this like a conscious, conscious decision or conversation that you guys have had uh, earlier on or did it kind of happen? Not accidentally, but did you only realize like later on, like actually um, the best way for us to make an impact here is to be, is to define the category for us.

Speaker A: It was a conscious decision and I think it needs to be to be successful. Um, and look, I think it is every kind of venture capitalist or startup founders favorite um, type of go to market or marketing strategy. Right? Because you know this idea of category creation is actually very well marketed. Right? The category creation, uh, concept. Right. As an idea that is. Um, and for some businesses it makes more sense to sell a better mousetrap. Right? It makes more sense to sell into an existing budget line and sell with a simple value proposition around better value. Right. Um, so again I don't think it's the right decision for every organization but again, where you want businesses or you want individuals to do something different. Right. Um, I think it's important to paint a vision of what that looks like and why it matters.

Speaker B: Love it. Um, so in closing, I feel like I said in closing several times, but you just keep saying things that kind of make me want to ask a bit more. I know Spark Live is coming up. If uh, people want to learn more about the event or B Marie, uh, or obviously continue the conversation with yourself, where can they find you?

Speaker A: Yeah. So if you want to um, uh, you know, ask me questions or continue The Conversation Personally, LinkedIn is the easiest place to find me. So I'm just Ben Slater on LinkedIn. Um, or Ben Slater. B Marie if you want to search and probably get a more filtered list of results. Um, if you want to learn more about Bmary Bmari, uh.com is the place to go and you want to want to learn more about Spark Live, you should find a link on our website. But if not you can just uh, search register.sparklive2024.com um, or type it in on Google. I'm sure you'll find your way there. Um, we're going to have some really fantastic content there. Uh, for folks, not just folks who are within the HR and talent space, but anyone who's thinking about these changes to their organization and how they might be able to, um, to manage them effectively. And we have some really fantastic speakers that we're going to announce over the coming weeks. So if it sounds interesting, take a look. Um, and obviously, if you have questions or thoughts or want to connect, um, my inbox is open.

Speaker B: Sweet. Awesome. Well, Ben, thank you so much, and, uh, we'll see you soon.

Speaker A: My pleasure. Thank you.