Leading Through Energy Affordability | Beyond Programs - What Dignity-Centered Leadership Looks Like (S5:E3)

Just Power Podcast Leading Through Energy Affordability | Beyond Programs - What Dignity-Centered Leadership Looks Like (S5:E3) Guest: Dr. Diana Hernández Carolyn Parrs One in three Americans are struggling to afford the energy that they depend on every day. Not the energy of the future, but the energy that's happening right now for them in their lives. So the question whether this is a problem or not is...

I'm gonna start from the top. I'm gonna keep it rolling. Diana Hernández Okay. Okay.

Carolyn Parrs One in three Americans are struggling to afford the energy that... One more time. Diana Hernández You got it. You can do it.

Carolyn Parrs One in three Americans are struggling to afford the energy they depend on every single day. Not the energy of the future, but the energy that they depend on right now, right here. So the question isn't whether it's a problem. The question is, right now, what does credible responses, leadership responses, actually look like in this moment?

Welcome to Just Power. Hi, I'm Carolyn Parrs and this is our series, Leading Through Energy Affordability. In episode one, we had Charles Hua from Powerlines, and he gave us from their new report, the data. And then in episode two, we brought on Jennifer Gremmert from Energy Outreach Colorado, and we actually heard from real people in real communities in Colorado and what they're experiencing now.

Carolyn Parrs Today, I am bringing back someone who has spent years at the intersection of all of this, the research, the policy, in the trenches with people experiencing energy insecurity. I have with me Dr. Diana Hernandez. She is an associate professor at Columbia University and the author of Powerless, The People's Struggle for Energy.

She has made it her work to make the invisible, what we don't see, visible. And today we're gonna explore what credible responses actually look like from those with the power to act on them. So welcome Diana. Welcome back, I should say.

Diana Hernández Thank you so much. It's so lovely to be here again with you. I'm excited and I'm really excited that we didn't necessarily coordinate, but we're both wearing stripes. Carolyn Parrs I know, I didn't text you ahead and we've got the stripes on, we're ready to go.

All right, you know, I want to start right with the title of your book, right? Powerless, because in that national survey that Charles did with his team, the number that really kind of floored me is four out of five Americans right now feel powerless over their energy bill. Right, that is actually the name of your book, right? Diana Hernández It is.

Well, I have to say, I'll give kudos to Charles Hua, who has been really kind of such a good spokesperson for this work and, you know, kind of bringing literally new energy to it and a new generation. I'm really proud of him. And also Jennifer Gremmert who's also been on this, who's been really kind of the longevity of that effort and her commitment really seeing through at Colorado Energy Outreach is also like really impressive. And I think that that's when I think about really the topic of today, I think about leaders that are both doing bold work and kind of communicating findings and also expressing the urgency that is kind of these issues that are on the ground and sometimes invisible, but also doing so with a level of commitment because that commitment is also a big part of ultimately like the mix of solutions.

We need credible partners that also have the longevity in the work to be able to kind of also talk about this as not, you know, a topical issue that is winning political races, but is also something that is very consequential and matters. It mattered yesterday, it matters today, and it will matter tomorrow. We need to really be thinking about comprehensive solutions that are not necessarily specific to this moment. Carolyn Parrs That's right.

I mean, this is going to be around for a while as we go through our energy transition, right? So it's not like a one and done. It's really big and it's five to 10 years, right? We'll see about that.

So you've actually been in the homes, right? Of people who are experiencing energy insecurity. So setting aside the programs that we've heard about and the policy language, just what is energy insecurity and what would genuine help have actually felt like to the people you sat with. Diana Hernández Wow.

Let me just say that, you know, the felt experience of energy insecurity is in many ways about encountering a system, a whole system that translates into a utility bill on a monthly basis. And that there's line items on a bill that are attached to policies and regulations and decisions that are being made. Oftentimes with the people that are most adversely impacted by their utility bills, not being in those circles and not necessarily having decision-making authority. So I feel like that is a big part of like the rendering of feeling powerless, right?

So when that four and five feel powerless, it's really about like what to do. But energy insecurity is, I guess, defined or formally defined as the inability to adequately meet household energy needs. There's an economic component, which is that around energy affordability and being able to pay a utility bill in full and on time and averting utility debt and disconnections that flow from the economic concerns. But also there's a physical component, which has to do with on the one hand, the performance, the kind of status of repair and efficiency of homes, but also the kind of grid and whether or not people have access to the energy services that they need and pay for.

And I'm talking about outages here. So we haven't always incorporated outages as a part of energy insecurity, but it is. Diana Hernández And that also takes it outside of the realm of affordability. Although when we start to think about those line items and the ways in which our bills are constructed, a big part of that is actually on the idea that utilities need to be reliable as much as they also need to be affordable.

And then from the day-to-day experiences, there's all the coping that happens. And in Powerless, we talk about coping to prevent - like all the ways in which people are trying to make trade-offs and balance all the different expenses that they have at home to, you know, incorporating energy efficient curtains and all these kinds of investments that are happening at the household level toward efficiency and lower cost. And then also the responsive coping strategies, which are really about people facing crises, oftentimes rooted in, let's say, the threat of a disconnection or the experience of energy systems that are faulty, unavailable, et cetera, and therefore needing to turn to hot plates, for instance, to cook a meal in the absence of gas services, that kind of thing.

There's one other piece which I think is very important and I like to kind of highlight it, which is the equivalent of hunger. So when we think about food insecurity, we think about the felt experience being hunger. And with energy, it's drain. People just feel drained financially, psychologically, physiologically, all of these different ways of literally feeling a home that is thermally uncomfortable or the stress of unpayable utility bills.

You know, just like we have an extreme form of hunger that is like malnutrition, we also have depletion, which is the extreme form of drain that happens when people are chronically exposed to energy insecurity. Carolyn Parrs Yeah, you you can see that on some of the faces of the people that we brought, we interviewed. You can feel it. There's an urgency.

There's a feeling sometimes of desperation because sometimes they don't have choices. It's not like they're going to go to another company or do it some they don't, right? And so they're working with what they can. And I think Jennifer used the term, you know, heat or eat, right?

Like those are big choices to make. Diana Hernández Definitely. Carolyn Parrs It's so real and you've brought that out like no other, even before it got in the news and all the media that we're hearing now, right? You were right out there, right?

And then look where we are. Diana Hernández Yeah. Well, I think, first of all, there's a wearing down in this experience because it is really about like, it's compounded. I wish that energy insecurity existed by itself, but it often is compounded with housing insecurity and all of these other material hardships that people that are experiencing poverty and or financial lack, those are the things that they're experiencing.

Diana Hernández But I wanna say that we also know from a public health perspective that it's really costly. It's not just costly from the experience. It's not just costly in terms of a bill, it's also costly in terms of health and longevity. So a lifespan and a health span, this past winter, there were so many deaths.

So I'm from New York City, although I'm in Cambridge right now at the Radcliffe Institute, spending the academic year. Yeah, as a climate justice fellow, it's been really lovely. But I also, you know, I'm really still connected to a lot of what's happening in the city. And so many people died outside during these like extreme, this extreme cold that happened.

But actually several people also died inside their homes. And one can only imagine that the reason why people are dying at home has a lot to do with whether or not they're turning the heat on. And if they're dying of hypothermia at home, it's oftentimes because they may be taking those preventive strategies. So we're not just talking about a felt experience as being, let's say, drained, depleted, powerless, but also like we're talking about whether or not people can survive.

Carolyn Parrs Yeah, we're talking life and death. Yeah. Carolyn Parrs Yeah, wow. So utilities and regulators and policymakers and advocates, all of us, you know, we say we care about energy affordability, right?

But from your perspective, what separates the ones who are actually moving the needle? And I know you've talked to those from those who just they're talking about it. They're taking good notes, right? But they're not or they aren't.

So what for you like what separates the ones? And maybe you've been out there a little bit, some stories that you're hearing that might be different than that program, the low income program they've had for years. Diana Hernández Yeah, so I love that and I'm gonna tell a story that I've not told in the public domain, but I was at a conference for energy regulators and I had a conversation with, you know, a high-level commissioner. And I won't like say anything beyond that, but I'll just kind of give you the visual so the visual is a notebook full of red ink and like these are kind of coming in from the public comments and like this real like commitment to jot down the information and the perspectives.

And yet oftentimes the follow through on that listening, which I think listening and radical listening is really critical to leadership and to doing everything. But it also has to be like met with the sense of like what do we have on the table? What are we actually offering to people that they can take advantage of and that they are taking advantage of because the eligibility to enrollment gap is addressed? Because that's one of the biggest challenges, right?

When I think about what are the sets of solutions that exist and the pathways forward, it's really also about making sure that people that are eligible for programs are accessing them, they're enrolled, and that the re-enrollment process is as simple and kind of not as onerous, not making it more onerous. It's already difficult enough to get on. It's really hard. I mean, people can make it harder to stay on, which I think is a real problem.

Diana Hernández So that like recertification piece, that is true for, you know, like let's say age, disability status, income, but also medical vulnerability and medical certifications for things like disconnection protections or other things like medical baseline. You know, letting the utility companies know, for instance, that someone is reliant on electronic medical devices. So that's a part of the solution set is like this idea of like, what's on the table? So it's like a landscape review, a survey of like, what are the resources?

And then a question of adequacy. So like, once we have an understanding of what's there, who's enrolled, who are we missing? What do we need to do to close the gaps between who is eligible and who is actually enrolled? Then we think about, well, when they are enrolled, is it actually enough to make a meaningful contribution to their ability to afford utility bills?

And oftentimes that is really like where things are lacking most, right? It's like, yes, there's something on the table. There's an offer, but it's incomplete. It's incomplete because it isn't enough.

It's incomplete because it only focuses on one domain and not others. So for instance, if people are experiencing an affordability challenge, maybe that's because of their income, but maybe it's also because of the efficiency of their homes. And oftentimes it's some kind of combination, combination thereof. People need multiple layered resources and they also need the preparatory work to get there so that like they're meeting those thresholds and able to kind of move through the process.

And I think that those are also the places where it's the identification. And it's also this question of like, once they're there and enrolled, are we meeting them in all of the ways that we can to really support them and to support household energy security in all the ways that we might need to? Yeah. Carolyn Parrs That's wow, I mean that alone.

If we could just get that part right and through it would be a game changer. Diana Hernández Absolutely. Like I love LIHEAP and I won't even like get into and LIHEAP and the weatherization. So the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program and the Weatherization Assistance Program, both of them have withstood the kind of political, you know, like tumultuous moment that we're having in terms of the safety net.

And I am, I'm hopeful about that, actually, but I will tell you that LIHEAP for as good as it is in concept, it is so outdated that in many ways it's not meeting the moment right now. And it isn't necessarily setting us up for a future in which households are more energy secure. And so to me, that's really about revisiting. So, you know, the history of LIHEAP is really baked in the oil crisis of the 1970s and 80s.

And, you know, it's basically about home heating oil and like seasonal protections for heating. So it has nothing to do with the cooling season. There's very little support. There's very little support in the way of it's very crisis oriented.

So it isn't necessarily about supporting prevention, which we know is an important kind of tool for, you know, like in the medical field, imagine if every situation we dealt with in the emergency room, like that's kind of how LIHEAP functions. So like it's, it's a big problem. Carolyn Parrs Okay. Wow.

You know, Jennifer mentioned, I just want to say this because you two are in cahoots here about like one source, right, for eligibility instead of like all these different pieces, right, that you have to go through. It's so laborious. And then there are people that, you know, just maybe not even speak the language, English, and they can't, it makes it hard. And I guess with also, I think with the our, headwinds that are happening right now makes it even weirder out there.

All right. So what you've said feels like a total reform for me, right? It's like that worked back in 1970, not to say you throw it away, but there's like, it has to just relook at where we are today because it is so different, right? So.

Diana Hernández Yeah, you know, it's funny that you said reform because I'm like over reform I would actually call it probably low-hanging fruit in the sense that it's it's already a - no, I think it just needs to be like modernized and refreshed for the moment and that I think is hopeful right because I think you know, there are some people that are like blow it all up and like we need to dismantle all kinds of things and and I think there's space for that. But I think that there's also like the kind of incremental improvements that can happen with resources that are existing that are actually also very well supported.

And I think that these programs, the energy assistance programs, that is true. I think they just need to be better. We need more funding to support more households and more households that are increasingly, you know, in need, demonstrating need for energy assistance, but also to be like kind of more in tune with the fact that, you know, like we live in an environment where we have two peaks now. We have winter and we have summer.

You know, we have issues around, well, you know, these are year long problems for many people. And we have this kind of issue around the budgeting where some of the southern states that have the highest energy insecurity rates are actually the least supported in these programs. And that's just by the design of the funding formulas. And I think that there's also a lot.

Carolyn Parrs That's I meant about reform. I didn't mean tear it up, blow it up because, you know, that's really harsh and it's for so many, but it really needs to be rethought, right, for now. And then not to say you're throwing it all away, you're not, but you're really rethinking it for our times. I use the word reform.

I'm not sure if it's the right one, but that's how it felt like to me. Yeah. Diana Hernández Exactly. No, no.

Well, I've just been thinking, do I go far enough in my work? I feel pragmatic. My whole thing is, how can we take really practical solutions as we kind of dream up the big picture, innovations that are necessary, and really the structural overhauls on programs and reimagining systems? I also think that there's just some things that we can do right away.

Carolyn Parrs What would that be? Right away. Right away things. Diana Hernández Well, I think, I mean, I think right away is basically ensuring that we have social and energy safety nets and that we have more, more like more participation in that and in, in, what is funding and fueling the energy safety net in particular, you know, the way that LIHEAP works is that it's a block grant to states, a federal block grant, and very few states, like a handful of states actually do anything to supplement it.

So you really have this kind of underfunded and really federally focused energy safety net. And there have been some states, mostly I would say in deregulated markets, where they are like bill discount programs, percent of income programs, like you know, so really thinking more robustly about the kinds of programs that are necessary that would actually ensure energy affordability, although you still have this kind of gatekeeping element around like who gets in and who's enrolled.

So, I mean, I think those are the low hanging fruit is like, again, the design of some of these energy affordability schemes that are at the state level. We know that percent of income payment plans are really effective and when they're enhanced. We know that programs like the CARE and FERA in California, which are utility discount programs, do help to bring down the cost of energy for households, low and moderate income households. New York State has an equivalent energy affordability program.

So these are really like helpful. Also I can imagine different ways that, for instance, investments in renewable energy can open up pathways for community-owned and supported energy microgrids. And that, I think, like, it's not so far off, but I think it's kind of like... Carolyn Parrs Yeah, community gardens, solar gardens, right?

Yeah. Diana Hernández Exactly. Yeah. I think that that's also then, I mean, that's a structural reform too, that also like diversifies who owns energy systems, who has oversight of them and what, what priorities are those energy systems serving?

And I think the ones that are more community focused are, you know, have, are more informed by the priorities that are often rooted in the ability to meet just basic household needs, not just in energy, but the energy pieces could be supported in kind. Carolyn Parrs Okay, so you've been, you you've been with your book and out there you've had some conversations directly with utilities, right? So what do they tend to want from that conversation with you? And what do you think they tend to resist?

I mean, you just gave a slew of amazing things to begin with. And what are you seeing out there, right? As far as like, you said, remember that red with the red ink book, right? There's a lot of red ink there.

How many parts of that are actually going to show up over here? So what do they tend to want from you and your conversations and where are they resisting? Like where's the wall that still seems to come up? Diana Hernández Yeah, so I think one of the - let me just say that you know, utilities are kind of interesting.

They're big. Some of them are like across different utility service territories. And I think one of the things that I've been able to convey and communicate to utility stakeholders has been about the human toll of energy insecurity. Because a lot of the times, like the economists and the engineers, are really in charge in utilities.

I'm a social scientist in public health and I think a lot about and lead with like, what are people feeling and how are they managing? And I think for them, it's a different vantage point. And again, a different set of like ways of thinking about this issue, you know, like it isn't necessarily just about how reliable are our energy services, but I always really kind of lead with the idea that like actually energy services are not reliable to people that have extreme affordability challenges, like because their needs cannot be met if they're constantly facing the threat of a disconnection or living through extended periods of being literally in the dark because they can't afford their utility bills.

So I feel like that's an important part of the messaging and the ideas. And I think another part of it is also, how do you work with communities? And what are the ways in which, you know, like we, there's a lot of distrust. How do you overcome these questions and have more productive conversation?

So I do work with a local utility in New York City. And, you know, like I think a big part of it is just having those relationships, supporting those relationships so that they can be more engaged in the long-term strategic planning, capital planning processes that guide the work of the utilities. So I feel like that's been an interesting role to play, right? Where it's evidence-based and at the same time, it's really trying to both support education, engagement, and also like what could we do, what's within your power?

But a lot of times these are, they're operating in two different realms, utilities. Carolyn Parrs Yeah, we've talked about that on the show about like, you know, the engineer is very good at being an engineer and knows how to create like where that substation is to go, right? From an engineering tech perspective. But then there's the human side to energy, which is really, especially in the world of AI that we live in right now, is going to be more and more important than ever, right?

So sometimes I've seen like this translation problem. I've been inside of the utility for many years as a consultant. And what I've noticed is this, is that I've seen communication breakdowns. For instance, the attorney, let's say that's advocating for a low income rate payer, doesn't really get like the complexity of let's say the financial or the operational constraints of what a utility has to work with.

I've seen it break down and then on the other side, which you just said, a utility, you know, can't, you know, it's the human piece, that human, you know, dignity piece that is so important right now. I mean, it's always important, but it seems like it needs to be on really in their training, in their DNA. I did a - which I'll put in the show notes - an idea around having energy coaches during this time. So people can just have that landing page I'll put in the notes.

So this whole new area, I think of really the human side, the human design to energy is something that, if someone could run with that and really get in and show and help the utilities do that better. Diana Hernández Yeah. Well, don't think... Look, I think that...

Please! Carolyn Parrs And I just want to say this, not making any fault on all of the amazing community managers that I have met. This has to come from top down and bottom up, right inside of a utility. Diana Hernández Yeah, well I want to just talk about the enabling environment of state policy and kind of the regulatory oversight.

I can say that, you know, like utilities are very compliance oriented and many of them will like, that's where the lawyers and the engineers are like, we think very effective and you know, there is a mandate, we have to meet that mandate and in order to do that, we have to do X, Y, and Z. So I think really this is also a question of like, how do we create the political pressure, for instance, to inform how the utility, like what are the metrics that they have to be compliant around?

And I feel like that's kind of an area that like I could say for sure in New York state, the Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act, which right now like, this is like hot off the press, it's really, you know, working to try to like dilute, defer, delay, like at any number of like the D's, you know, that don't necessarily bode all that well for meeting ambitious, both climate and justice goals. The just energy transition pieces of the CLCPA right now are pitting up against the affordability challenges.

So how do we think about, I mean, temporally? I've always, and I've said this in other areas too, that justice is temporal. On the one hand, when things go too fast, like a lot of the kind of agreements in the data center world, I think a part of why that will introduce new injustices is because it's going too fast and it's not transparent. Diana Hernández But I think the other piece of it, like the temporal piece is when you do things in partnership, oftentimes it just takes longer.

You can get to better ends that meet multiple, like, you know, like good outcomes, multiple positive, let's say, you know, triple bottom line type things, but that isn't going to necessarily happen overnight, right? You really do need the time and you need to be able to look into the future. So you need to be able to have the kind of visionary, engaged, vision-focused and engaged, like equal partnerships that allow for that to happen in the long term. The durability of those relationships and like, you know, the idea that we're gonna be in this for a long time, so we're committed.

I feel like those are all parts of the work that are necessary, but that there aren't always incentives to support. And I think that that's, you know, like in some ways an area, a window of opportunity is to like think about how states and the regulatory bodies can actually support this by creating both an enabling environment and also the infrastructure for a true partnership so that it's engaged in community. Carolyn Parrs Yeah, yeah, that's so important, that part of it. And as we close, Diana, so there's a version of it, just to kind of put a bow on this part of it, is that there's a version of energy affordability work, right, where it centers on the data, on the programs, and even the technology.

And then there's a version where it centers on dignity and trust and community responses, right, that you said. So as we close, where do you put your hope in right now? Diana Hernández Well, I I feel like as we enter an AI world and a more technologically forward world, I think many of us are falling back on the things that make us human. And those things that make us human are in part like the relationships and part of it is about trust and how we take care of each other.

And to me, I mean, there's so many reasons why I would probably fall in that camp. But I think also practically speaking, there has to be some kind of convergence. You cannot make just technical decisions that are just so engineering focused that you forget about the people. And you can't make just - I think the people oriented stuff should lead.

But I think obviously, we also need the other pieces to fall in place otherwise we kind of have a little bit of a collapse. But I wanted to tell you my four C's of leadership in there. Because I do think that like over the course of my life and career and also like having time, even where I am right now to reflect, I've thought about what is it all about? Like what are my leadership values and principles and how does that translate into the energy space?

So I'll just list them out. So the first is conviction. Because I think you have to believe in something. And when I think about the roles of leaders, it's really about kind of having a strong sense of right and wrong and really like being able to speak to that and have your decisions online.

The conviction piece is important. Then there's courage. Because I think when you believe in something that is important, it isn't necessarily always as shared value. And so you have to have the courage to be able to move things forward.

And that means taking bold actions, doing things when it's before it's popular, like those kinds of things. I think being creative, so creativity is another piece of this because I think part of it is also seeing like what's available to you and using those resources creatively while you think about what innovations come next. And the fourth piece is commitment. So commitment is about, again, the temporal aspect, which is staying the course.

That's when you've identified that something is important, when you've had the courage to communicate that and bring others along, and you've done things creatively, that you're also sticking around and sticking around doesn't mean not opening up spaces for others. And that I think is also important because we definitely need the regeneration of people. That's why I'm always excited to see new generations, but you can be committed to something even if that means that you're not always a person that's on top and leading.

And that I think is like for me, have been, those four C's have been guiding principles. And now I can say them like, you know, like with ease, but it took a long time. And it also, I can think about all the different ways in which I've like kind of stepped into those spaces over the course of my career. Carolyn Parrs I love those four.

I love those. Conviction, courage, creativity, and commitment. Right? It brings it the whole piece of it and the whole arc of it.

And I think about the last one because that last one is where, you know, the rubber meets the road, that, you know, the commitment. And I might add consistency in that commitment to stay - you said - the course. Another C. So, yeah.

And so whatever it is you believe in, right? That conviction to take it all the way. Even when the road gets bumpy. Diana Hernández Yeah, I mean, this is where to me, like, yeah, right.

I mean, I feel like affordability right now because it's winning races. It's one of those things where like, you just wonder how committed people really are to these issues and how much they're using or how much they're using it as a way to kind of like build a platform that isn't sturdy. And I feel like, you know, again, when we lead with people first and really thinking about how do we help people be better in their spaces so that they could be more fully human because they're not thinking about their basic needs in such a way that is draining and depleting, right?

So coming right back to where we started, then you give platforms for people to live well and live in comfort and dignity and live in fullness. But that can only happen when leaders that are making decisions first of all, put themselves in positions to listen, but to also follow through, to act and follow through in ways that also are supporting that vision, that vision for communities to be thriving and not necessarily to always be hurtled with problems. Carolyn Parrs Yeah, I love that.

You know, what I said at the opening about acting on it, right, acting on whatever that solution is. So you're whatever the place you live in the part of the world you live in an energy, right, to take that conviction and act on that and stay committed. Right. And all those solutions end up becoming just right, a new ecosphere, right, of what we can see.

So you know, Diana, thank you so much for coming on today, right? Your work, your research, being part of this series, you're exactly the kind of leadership that, you know, why we exist on Just Power. So how could people find out more about your work, where you're going, what you're doing right now around this? Diana Hernández Yeah, well, I mean, I'm definitely online and you can find me - my personal website is drdianahernandez.

com, but I'm also on Columbia's faculty web pages and that kind of thing. I will say that, you know, I've been using my time in this fellowship to really get into ideas around female founders and firsts. So women that have really been at the frontiers of the social and environmental sciences and what makes them stand apart and what kind of challenges they faced in being the first. And this is also just women leaders, a lot of them women of color, so kind of taking an intersectional approach.

And it's just been so inspiring. And so if I could leave with anything, it's just we don't always have the privilege of kind of stepping back and also being refreshed. But if we think about what it takes to be, let's say, resilient, it's that our cups are filled and that we have enough of a reserve on the backup to support us for the hard times that come. And I think right now it's always hard to predict the future, but you know, there is just so much chaos.

So however we can as leaders, especially, like refill our cups, I think is really important because when we feel more human as leaders, because we're not so like depleted in our own like energy expenditures, then we're also more in a position to care about and to act in the best interest of the public, which energy really is rooted in that. And I think we always have to come back to this idea that this is a public good and a public service. And those of us that are doing work in different spaces also have to come back to the places where we're refueling because the work that we're doing is even more and more important.

Carolyn Parrs Yeah, I love that you mentioned women, the women that are doing this. It is Women's History Month. We're in March. So perfectly aligned with that.

And what this conversation reminds me of is that when we get it right, and there were so many solutions that you mentioned today, we just don't, it's not just about lowering a bill, right? It's about changing a life, right? Changing a life for the better. So if this conversation made you inspired or moved you in some way, please subscribe to Just Power wherever you get your podcasts and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.

It might be a neighbor, it might be a colleague, it might be a legislator, a decision maker in your world. It is so packed with so many solutions. And for me, the real heart of it all is the human side of really rising, lifting up the human side in our energy world. That is what's needed most.

And when that happens, things change. So thank you for joining us today because you know we're all in this together.