Your Relationship Is a Leadership System | Ep. 67 w/ Katarina Polonska (The Successfully in Love® Method)

[00:05.9] Here's a myth that quietly wrecks high performers. If I can lead a team, I can figure out my relationship. But relationship drift doesn't just stay at home.

It shows up as shorter patience, worse decisions, lower focus, and a leadership edge that ends up dulling over time. [00:23.8] Today, we're talking about what's real. Your relationship is part of your leadership operating system.

Welcome back to "Is Anything Real?", the reality-first leadership show, where we test advice, publish the receipts, and ship what works under constraint. I'm Adam W. Barney, transition leadership coach, author, and your host.

[00:43.1] Today's guest is Katarina Polonska, executive relationship strategist, gender dynamics social scientist, and founder of the Successfully in Love method. She's built a science-based approach for founders and senior leaders. And she works at the level most people avoid: the subconscious systems underneath the pattern, not just the story on top of it.

[01:07.0] And this is where I want to ground my own frame quickly. In my coaching work, I'm constantly reminding leaders that what got you here won't get you there. And the same is true in relationships.

Motivation and trying harder, obviously don't scale. [01:22.3] Systems do. And patterns do.

Katarina, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Awesome.

Quick opener. What's the most common leadership problem your clients bring you that turns out to be a relationship problem in disguise? [01:38.9] Yeah, well, I'd almost kind of combine the two.

Right? We know that leaders, especially founders, have a 72% divorce rate, so go figure. The main problems that come to me, it's typically I've been building this company or grinding in this corporate job, and I've got to a certain level where I've achieved success. [02:02.

8] Or as one client told me, you know, I've made enough money to have eight versions of me. There are eight times me now, and my marriage sucks. Like, I don't feel like my real self anymore. My wife doesn't even really lay the table for me anymore.

[02:19.1] I dread weekends. I don't really want to come home, and maybe I've met somebody else. Which completely makes sense.

If you are in an office, and you are grinding these long hours, and you're feeling really disconnected at home. And now the problem is that this is overtly a relationship problem, but again, to kind of flip it on its head. [02:39.6] What happens when we have relationship problems?

We're not sleeping very well. We're probably not eating very well. We're not thinking very clearly. We're not making great decisions because we've got brain fog, because we're so concerned with everything that's going on.

We're not feeling rested because you're not coming home to a safe environment where you get to relax and to feel yourself. [02:59.2] You're not being authentic because you're having to keep a wall up and having to perform a certain way. And so all of these factors, when we think about them compounding together, they're not going to make a good leader.

Right. They're going to make a very distracted, a very fried, a pretty volatile leader who's, yes, passionate about the work, but isn't really able to show up in a secure way. [03:22.9] And that there's, you know, a myth there that I think traps high performers in relationship drift.

Communication isn't the only leg to stand on. I actually would argue relationships act like leadership infrastructure. Yeah. But two quick things that have actually been sitting in my head lately that might help frame this.

[03:44.3] First I heard a take that basically said if you treat something like StrengthsFinder, Clifton StrengthsFinder as a multi-variable profile, the odds of two people aligning cleanly are wildly low. And the point wasn't that the exact math there, it was the reality we're often running different operating systems and calling it chemistry. [04:06.

7] And second, since meeting you, Katarina, I connected with Janna Meyrowitz Turner, who runs Antenna Up, the Buoys Club, and Healthier Men at Work. And it hit me that a lot of relationship failure isn't because men don't care. It's because men often don't have a support structure. [04:24.

6] Permission structure rather for support. So, Katarina, with that setup, what's the core myth you want to punch in the face today? That our relationships are somehow separate to our leadership. They're not.

I think Covid made that really clear that, yes, your work life leads into your personal life, your personal life leads into your work life. [04:46.3] And gone are the days where you show up to an office, and you check in, and you know, the little briefcase, and you check out, and you go home, and you forget about things. With our phones, the technology,with the pace of work, with the sheer volume of work that we're doing.

It is our life. [05:02.8] And in the same vein, our relationship is our work. Because again, you can't really untangle the fact that you are the common denominator between all of it.

And so when I hear, and I don't hear this from my clients, thank goodness, because my clients are the people who actually take action. But when I speak to people who maybe aren't my clients, and they say, I'll look at my marriage when I've got through the next quarter. [05:26.0] I hear that all the time.

And I'm sitting there, and I'm thinking, you look exhausted. You look drained. You know, and when we have a conversation, they tell me how much drama is in their life and how miserable they are. And I'm thinking, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

[05:42.3] You think that you're focusing on your business, but you are shooting yourself in the foot. Because if you actually pulled your finger out and tackled the thing that's draining you, you wouldn't have to wait until the next quarter. Your work would be flying.

I mean, literally I see that consistently in my work, that one of the most wonderful side effects of improving your marriage. [06:01.9] You will earn more money. You will earn more money.

Right. There's a lot of data out there, and you will live longer. So, you know, tons of data out there on this. I mean, even Harvard did the biggest study on human longevity.

Your romantic relationship is the most important factor. It's not what you eat. [06:17.6] It's not, you know, it's not all these things.

It's like, literally, your romantic relationship. We don't talk about that. And that's where basically, I think, you know, high performer logic is murdering intimacy. With partners there.

[06:34.3] Let's, you know, debunk it. If the myth is blank, what's the truth? And maybe we start with high performers can't out achieve subconscious patterning.

Or most conflict is protection, not content. You know, so on and so forth. [06:52.4] So what's the biggest myth?

Yeah, what's the biggest myth? I think the biggest myth is that you're smart enough and logical enough to figure it out yourself. Right. Because when you're a high performer, hello, that was me, my whole life, we have this belief that I can figure it out.

[07:08.8] I can figure it out. You know, like, I can do this. I'm smart.

I can read a book. I can, you know, ask Claude or whatever. Like, I can figure it out. And yes, to an extent, you probably can.

But, it's not about figuring it out. And actually, the people who I find who get really stuck, funnily enough, are the ones who intellectually understand what's going on and can walk me through the pattern of, you know, this and then that, and then my childhood and this and trauma with a capital T and little trauma. [07:34.2] And they can describe the situation beautifully, but they're still stuck.

And the reason they're still stuck is because it's not an intellectual problem to solve for; if it was, you would have solved it by now. It's a subconscious problem, and it lives inside your blind spots. [07:51.8] That's why we call them blind spots.

And in the same way that I have been, you know, working this for years. I mean, I started coaching in 2007, like, the bulk of my life doing this. Truly, I still have a coach. I have two.

You know, I still do this work myself because, of course, I have my own blind spots. [08:10.7] And then as I grow, and as I ascend and, you know, get more impact and all the wonderful things in my life that I want to achieve, I have my own blind spots. And I know it all intellectually.

I mean, I'm literally teaching this for a living. But I still have someone to help me with the subconscious parts that maybe don't want me to see them, maybe want to hide, because actually the secondary gain that they're getting is pretty good. [08:34.1] And so they're like, oh, I'm going to stay here and keep doing what I'm doing.

I need someone else to help me. And that's very normal. That's very human. That is really, I mean, hownhumans have evolved throughout history.

I mean, I would say, you know, that that goes back to the fight or flight mentality that we all faced when we were foraging for food and getting chased by animals that were a live or die situation. [09:00.3] But I think that really does outline how it's not about communication problems. It's pattern problems, it's systems problems, and that rewiring is the critical piece of it.

You know, that's exactly why I'm allergic to inspiration culture. [09:16.2] Because insight without installation is really just, you know, it's a performance. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. Let me pressure test something with you quickly.

If two people, say, have low overlap, they have different strengths, different defaults, different stress responses. [09:33.9] A lot of couples interpret that as we're wrong. But what if it's actually we're different systems and we never learned how to translate?

Yeah, for sure. And a great little way of compartmentalizing this and simplifying is even to look at attachment theory. And looking at how people show up in different ways. [09:52.

5] You know, so many of my clients are more on the anxious end of the spectrum, and I don't mean anxious in terms of, you know, kind of literal anxiety. But they think a lot, they worry, they kind of scenario plan, they gather data like they're on it. [10:09.5] And that way of essentially over- functioning and leaning in is one way of operating.

Whereas there are other people who, who actually often aren't my clients because they don't get the help, who function differently, who maybe lean out, who maybe prefer to avoid, who maybe prefer to kind of do delay discounting where they solve for like the immediate problem, which is hitting your quota or the next deal, rather than thinking about the longer term pain. [10:33.6] There's nothing wrong with that. It is we are different people.

And the funny thing about psychology is that we tend to attract our opposite. Because if you attract your opposite, then the two of you will actually make a whole. And so there is a beautiful art to it on what's happening on that kind of bigger scale. [10:49.

8] But it does mean that you're going to be probably quite triggered because your partner's going to be quite different to how you are. And you know, I think all of this weaves into, you know, high performers are probably looking for one right answer. You know, there's a trap in relationships and in leadership when you're scorekeeping, you know, righteousness and let's say winning the argument and then that mismatch turns into resentment over time. [11:16.

0] But compatibility, I view it really as pattern compatibility. And I think you would agree there, it's not about shared hobbies. What's one sign a couple is, say, trying to logic their way through an emotional safety issue, though? If you're having a lot of conversations, conversations, and conversations, and conversations, but you're not really moving the needle.

[11:39.3] If you're doing a lot of couples counseling and you're not really moving the needle. If you're trying these kind of, I don't say band aid solutions, but if you're trying to be very rational and structural about things, but it's not really moving the needle, then you know that you're being too in your head. [11:55.

4] And that's not to say that there isn't room for the rational and the structural and the talking. But that needs to be coupled with the deeper, somatic processing. With the deeper body work, with the deeper nervous system work. That's where the patterns live.

And you need both, you need to engage the head and the body, the full spectrum of your being in order to change. [12:15.3] And this is where, you know, I'm a big fan of individual work because trying to, you know, heal, quote, unquote, your nervous system, or trying to do pattern rewiring with a partner is actually really difficult because you're both coming from two different places, you're both trying to coordinate two different schedules. [12:31.

8] I'd argue it's actually much harder than just engaging with a professional and doing the work yourself so that you can show up as the best version of yourself. And because humans attune to each other, when you show up secure, your partner's more likely to show up secure. [12:47.0] And that way, you actually help them rewire themselves by example.

Far more effective than trying to bludgeon them and drag them into a room and practice with you. It's meeting them where they are almost. [13:02.2] Exactly, yeah.

And this is where I mentioned earlier, you know, Antenna up and the Buoys Club, and it keeps ringing for me a little bit. It's not a tangent, but as a reality check, because a lot of men, specifically, don't lack love. They actually lack language and permission for support. [13:21.

2] So from your lens, what's going on there? I don't think men have been set up for success. I mean, if you look at men and men's mental well being and the role of men in society and that role for the past few decades, it's changed quite drastically. [13:38.

7] But it also hasn't changed. You know, men are still kind of the main folks running society, but they're also one of the most neglected when it comes to emotional health. And so when I look at a lot of my male clients who are in these sticky situations, whether it is having an affair, or it is being miserable in your marriage, and trying to figure out whether I should leave, or trying to reignite intimacy with your wife and then feeling stuck with that. [14:03.

2] Or even as I have one client, feeling ashamed about wanting more intimacy. Right. Because you've been conditioned to believe in that, somehow your needs aren't valid. All of that is an education problem.

All of that's an education problem. And there's a reason why I work really with the Anglo-American. [14:20.3] You know, I have some clients in Eastern Europe, but there's this kind of very Eurocentric, Anglo-American culture that I understand where men have not been given any shape or form of a manual on how to actually have healthy relationships.

And women haven't either. But women have more of an intuitive pull. [14:36.7] And that intuitive pull is more nurtured in society.

One of the things I'm passionate about is education. Yeah. I mean, I've seen it time and time again that, you know, men wait until crisis or have this vision that asking for help, you know, be brave, ask for help, is actually a status loss. [14:57.

6] Right. But it should be reframed as support for performance, leadership, and capacity. You know, what words work better than help for the men you work with? And why do those resonate differently?

That's a good question. [15:12.9] I haven't actually figured that out myself yet. I would say normally I use the language of support.

Right. But there's also something there around inner conditioning. You know, training. Like literally training your nerves, some training your subconscious.

Flexing that muscle, right? [15:28.3] Absolutely, absolutely. It's funny that one of the companies I used to work for was called Mind Gym, which is a great term, right?

Because it's like this idea of, you know, you have a gym for the mind. We go to the gym every day, some of us, so why not have a gym for the mind? And it's a very similar premise. [15:43.

4] And so much of my work really is about practice, practice, practice, practice. And engaging that discipline to do the practice. Because that's where the change lives. The goal here isn't talk about it better, right?

The goal is stop repeating the same loop with better vocabulary. [15:59.9] Exactly. But let's publish some receipts here.

When the work lands that you do, what changes? What's measurably the impact that's made here? Well, the thing that I see, and I was talking about this earlier with one of my coaches, that the thing that's most unexpected, I would say, is what I mentioned earlier, which is your income will increase. [16:19.

5] Right. Because when your capacity to be able to hold more, to be more resilient, to believe that you deserve more, to believe that you are worthy of more, to believe that you can have a life that is actually truly abundant, and nourishing, and wonderful, which is the conditions that you need to be in in order to have a healthy, happy relationship. [16:36.6] Well, guess what, you're going to probably make a lot more money because you believe that you deserve more money.

You're going to be actually more creative, you're going to have better decision making, and be better rested, and need something more capable. So that's one of the wonderful side pieces. That's a very tangible outcome. But aside from that, you're going to be happier.

[16:53.2] And, you know, we poo-poo happiness as kind of this like very fluffy EQ thing, but it's actually, no, when you're happier, guess what? You are more creative, you work harder, you're more productive, you sleep better, you're a nicer person to be around, you're a nicer boss. And whilst it might seem really fluffy, that is where the best companies are built.

[17:13.3] Through a happy, inspiring, wonderful leader. And so, you know, there's a study that I posted on LinkedIn, and it did pretty well. I'm not surprised that it did well.

But if you have sex with your partner the night before you go to work, you're going to be better at work. [17:30.2] There's literal data on that. You're gonna have a pep in your step and you're going to be more productive.

Right? Yeah. So think if you're happily married... I can see better sleep energy returns there.

Focus. [17:45.7] Decision quality. Less reactivity.

And less shut down nature. And less escape behavior. Right. That overwork, that numbing, the avoidance, but those have direct lines to that confidence and clarity that leads to income.

[18:01.9] So, the ROI isn't really just the feelings or the income, it's the operational stability that you built here. Precisely. Yeah.

Let's go into one move. Something listeners can run this week without pretending they're going to fix their relationship in a weekend. [18:19.9] You know, is it simply a pattern and a need interrupt or what would you recommend there?

Yeah, great question. I'm debating if there's two things I could say here, I'm gonna go with the need one. [18:36.4] There's another one I want to do, but I'll say that for another time.

Fair. To your point about, you know, is it a pattern? Is it a need? You can pattern interrupt by looking at what the need is.

Meaning, beneath every behavior that you have, every behavior that your partner has, there is a need that they're trying to get met. If your partner's avoiding you or not having sex with you, they're trying to get a need met. [18:56.5] In the same vein, if you are feeling like you're walking on eggshells with your partner, or you can't be a real self with your partner, there's a need getting met there.

Everything that we do has a need. So one thing that you can do to interrupt things and actually start to move the needle is to start getting curious around with yourself. [19:12.6] What is it that you need in that moment?

And ask your partner, what do you need this morning? What do you need today? What do you need? And it might be a bit of a weird question to ask if you haven't asked it before.

And then I don't know what you say, you might not know even what the need is, but the more that you sit with it, the more that you listen and trust whatever it is that comes up. [19:33.1] It might be rest. I have a partner, I have a client who, you know, he's trying to reignite the intimacy with his wife.

They've not been intimate for a long time. She's kind of entering menopause and he's really struggling and you know, he's. They have this kind of routine where they try to be intimate, and then there's like guilt, and pressure and she doesn't want to do it, and he feels bad, and then she feels bad, and then nothing happens and it's basically terrible. [19:55.

6] And then it's horrible cycle. It's the elephant in the room. The downward cycle. Absolutely, absolutely.

And so one of the things that we're working on is ask her what she needs. She has no idea what she needs because she's not really stopped to consider it because she's been a mother and you know, working her whole life. And actually one of the things that she does need, as, so many women need, is rest and to feel safe. [20:16.

5] And trying to force someone to have sex with you is not going to make them feel safe. So what does rest and safety look like? It might be lying, cuddled up in his arms once a week, unfettered, no children, just peace. And that's the need.

[20:31.8] And for him, guess what he's going to get out of it? He's going to feel needed. He's going to feel like he's providing.

He's going to feel like he's giving us something really important. And thus, the connection grows. Both of them are getting their needs met, and that will lead to other needs getting met down the line. Because we're starting the chain of events, right?

[20:47.4] So get curious and like, what do you need? What does she need or he need? And ask.

And ask yourself and them. And I mean it's not resolution, right? It's interrupting the default narrative there. But I think underneath there in those needs, it's probably, you mentioned safety, but it's respect, it's autonomy, it's appreciation, it's reassurance, or it's simply maybe a belief in the partnership that you have.

[21:13.8] Exactly, exactly, exactly. That's a simple, simple version for people to follow here. After everything you've seen, you know, power, patterns, relationships, leadership, and the cost of just being fine, is anything real?

Is anything real? [21:31.9] I think it's all real. I think that when it comes to relationships, it's the most real thing that we have.

Humans are built on relationships. You put a baby without any connection, and it will die. Right. Relationships are the most real thing that we have.

[21:48.0] And so it's about getting back to what is real within it, and not staying on the surface level of performance, which is where so many of us live, but dropping down into the reality, what is actually going on here. And if what's going on here is actually we don't love each other anymore and our time maybe has kind of fizzled out, that's okay as well. [22:07.

8] Right? The real doesn't have to be nice, it doesn't have to be pleasant. But just because it's not pleasant doesn't mean that it's not real, and it doesn't mean that it's not okay. And that's where that self-grace comes into play, right through those decisions.

But okay, that's fantastic. [22:23.9] Katarina, where can people find you and your work, and discover more about The Successfully in Love Method? Yeah, absolutely.

So you can find me on my website, www.katarinapolonska.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn.

Just type in my name, and I'll pop up there. You can find me on my YouTube, on my podcast, a whole flurry of social media channels. [22:43.8] What I would do is just type into Google Katarina Polonska and explore.

And reach out to me on LinkedIn or book a call. I would love to talk to you. We will definitely be linking to those in the show notes below. But listeners, if this episode hit you, send it to one leader who's crushing it publicly, but they're quietly drifting privately.

[23:03.5] If you're leading through a transition and want a reality first reset, there's a clarity call, foundational call, with me in the show notes. No pitch, just the next honest move. But until next time, proof over performance and ship what works.

But Katarina, thanks for joining today. [23:19.4] Thank you for having me.