S3E1 Stephanie Ramezan, The Crypto Collective

Speaker A: This week I speak to Stephanie Ramazan, CEO and founder of the Crypto Collective, the world's first strategic consultancy exclusively dedicated to institutional digital assets, providing advisory, strategic growth and communication solutions for the traditional and decentralized ecosystems. I hope you enjoy. Stephanie, welcome.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Um, I think this podcast is best structured around your cv, which is phenomenally strong, supporting all things crypto. We have to start somewhere. I've gone through your LinkedIn. There's a massive list of, of things that you've accomplished. But let's start at Greengage. Um, well, you were there, I suppose, as Chief Commercial Officer. So tell us about Greengage. Tell us about some of the problems that it sought to overcome and your role.

Speaker B: So Greengage was an incredible experience. Uh, back in 2017, a friend of mine approached me and said, stephanie, how would you like to start a bank? I said, sure, why not? Why not? As it was going to be a, a crypto bank, a bank for companies in the crypto space who can't get banking anywhere else. I said, great. Had I built a bank before? No. But, uh, Sean Kieran, um, the CEO, had. So I was, you know, I thought, someone knows what they're doing.

Speaker A: You.

Speaker B: And I'd have, yeah, I came. I came with my own set of skills, uh, and experiences. And Sean and I started from ground zero, literally knocking on doors, stomping the pavements in our kitchens, putting together a business plan and thinking, right, how are we going to do this? At their time, there were a few banks in the us, um, notably Silgate was at the time one of the biggest. No longer exists.

Speaker A: And Greengage does.

Speaker B: And Greengage does. And Greengage is soon through ipo, uh, hopefully in the next couple of months. So, ah, Whilst Greengage did not actually become a bank, pivoted, uh, its business plan and business model, what it still is doing and what it set out to do was to be helping companies in the fintech and M crypto space, uh, but more broadly, SMEs who struggle to get funding, um, and loans elsewhere. So it has really impacted the UK economy in a very, very positive way, but also now has a more global reach. They have footprint in Abu Dhabi as well. And when I was at Greengage, starting in 2018, uh, I was there for about three and a half years. We built the team from, like I said, myself and Sean and a few individuals. Uh, we did our first funding round about a year, 18 months into that and built the team to around 20, 25 people. Quite quickly. And uh, we're also one of the first uh, companies in the UK that were able to offer collateralized loans with crypto to uh, institutions. So that was a really interesting time building out different revenue streams, working with the team on sort of go to market strategy, uh, and just shaping the future of what it wanted to become.

Speaker A: There's two things there. Number one, a lot of companies are now trying to do load against your crypto sort of stuff. They've only just realized that you can do it. I think maybe the regulatory landscape hasn't been clear but there's a, there's a larger appetite for that. But Greengage were doing that years ago.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. So they weren't lending off of their own balance sheet but we were working with partners to be able to do that.

Speaker A: That's really good. And the second thing is I went to Greengage recently. I got debanked, um, as I'm sure lots of people do and it is painful. I won't tell you who it was with. Oh well it was Revolut, strangely now that they're a bank. Yeah, exactly. Um, and Greengage swooped in and offered help and it was great because I was able to speak to Sean and it was a matter of we can help you. That's the whole point of us existing. So it's, it's, they're obviously in the right direction. Um, and then you were a non exec um or you are a non exec at ah, Coinstone Capital. Are you still there or not?

Speaker B: No, they've actually sold uh, the business. So yes, that was ah, again great experience uh, in my earlier crypto years back in 2017, 2018, Dutch firm and um, I met one of the founders um, in Amsterdam and at an event in 2017 and we got talking and he had a great strategy in terms of investment management for crypto, uh, but he needed help in terms of positioning in the market and really sort of working out which verticals that he should be going for in terms of what works with their strategy and um, compared to the other providers out there where their niche was really going to be. And I really worked very closely with the executive team and the founders and uh, we chose family offices that, that would be the vertical they were going after. So I helped them with the go to market there, with the messaging, um, with positioning within the family office space

Speaker A: and this is, and we'll come on to this but there's a lot of you taking people's hands and leading them through the market and Go to market style.

Speaker B: Lots of hand holding.

Speaker A: Lots of hand holding. What did you learn from being at Coinstone Capital?

Speaker B: So I was just a non exec of course, so it was really, um, a few hours a month in terms of board meetings and looking at governance structures, et cetera. Um, but what I learned was that you really have to meet people where they are. I think a big mistake in the crypto space is that people have amazing ideas, they often have incredible infrastructure, technology and there's an assumption that people are just going to get us.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've heard that before. Yeah.

Speaker B: And so helping people translate what they're trying to say and their messaging into a way that's digestible for that audience in question, I think is incredibly important. And we see it even now with really big incumbents, people expecting their audience to just come to them. And we really have to now, especially with this uh, tradfi defi space really converging, coming together. We have to meet in the middle, we have to meet people where they are. Um, baby steps and maybe a lot of baby steps over many years. Uh, and of course we are getting ever closer.

Speaker A: Uh, well, when I'm at Tech uk, some of the meetings I do, there's all this sort of question about why is this tech not being used more, um, more openly by lots more people. And it seems as though there are, and let's call them this, very smart super nerds on one end creating all this amazing infrastructure and then there's your everyday person and they just haven't in the way, uh, often case haven't met in the middle in so many instances. So I guess that's probably the big learning very much.

Speaker B: And I think that's partly why we set up the crypto collective and we see ourselves as that bridge.

Speaker A: And now let's move to Gemini. Because you were there for a little while. That's when we met, I think. Although I might met you when you were greengage.

Speaker B: I can't remember, I think Gemini.

Speaker A: Yeah, Gemini, yeah. Where you were initially Director of Business Development, um, for EMEA M. And then over a year, I think it was about a year later under, I can't remember when we were talking about it, you were the CEO of Gemini uk. Um, so few questions on Gemini. Tell us about Gemini at the time.

Speaker B: Gemini. When I joined Gemini, it was absolutely brilliant. It was um, really honestly a dream job. It was very early into their path in Europe. I was really the first commercial hire they had, um, CEO and head of compliance. And I got a call and they Said we're expanding into Europe and Middle East. We need somebody who has background in tradfi, who can speak to institutional investors but also understands the crypto space has um, a network and is interesting in building, building a business. So um, whilst Greengrage was fantastic and I thought I would be there so until retirement it was really an opportunity that was too good to miss. And in my naivety um, thinking I'm going to this huge brand with the Winklevoff CEO behind everything, um, I got there and it was just yet another startup with very little sort of infrastructure, um, which was the fun of it. You know I really do thrive in that early stage um, space. But I guess naively I thought because of the, the branding and the billions literally behind it it would be different. But you know startups are startup and so being employee number three, first commercial

Speaker A: hire, is that what you were pro number three?

Speaker B: Yes, for Europe. Um, and yeah, we, we four, five, six, 3660 came very soon after me. Um, which is great to be there to help shape that. Um, but it really was a blank canvas and so that was wonderful. And they said okay, here you are, here's your login, here's your email, here's your laptop, off you go.

Speaker A: You know what we do? We help people buy crypto assets or

Speaker B: an exchange or a custodian. Um, you figure it out. So it was really great and timing was good. We were in a good part of a cycle which as you know helps tremendously when you're trying to build in a space join. What year was it? Uh, February 2021.

Speaker A: Okay, very good.

Speaker B: So a great year to join. All ships are rising. Yeah. And uh, so my job was really to onboard uh, institutions and we went um, very quickly uh, from zero to 450 institutions in that first year and it was a very hands on approach and I think that's what really helps us win a lot of business at that time. That it was very personal, it was very relationship led which understandably a lot of tech firms aren't really doing these days.

Speaker A: We were saying as well a couple of years ago that you've got all the tech and the people who are super smart and they can't translate it into human connection.

Speaker B: Yes. So giving people a human to speak to I really believe still has a lot of value and should not be ruled out. So um, we were building the business and then about a year and a half in I had a call and they said how um, would you like to take over the UK entities? And uh, it was very unexpected. But you obviously don't say, no, no, of course not. And that was also a baptism of fire. It was about a month before the FTX collapse. So what I thought would be a very dynamic, uh, growth, commercial driven job became a very defensive regulatory role. And I joke, I have my accelerated MBA in regulatory compliance.

Speaker A: Um, did that all fall on you? I suppose you had to answer questions

Speaker B: about fell on me. In terms of last point of responsibility, I had oversight of all of the entities and whilst of course I had my head of legal and my head of compliance, our mlro, et cetera. Ultimately the buck stopped me. Um, and I had professional liability, of course, to have oversight and make sure that, uh, everything's being done properly. So, um, we had some interesting interactions, of course, with multiple regulators and we also had to work indirectly with regulators of our other entities because everyone had to be working together as things progressed. Um, but yes, I was in that role for a good couple of years. So must, um, have done something right?

Speaker A: Yeah, you must have done. Well, what were Gemini doing differently at the time? Because there was lots of competitors. There still are lots competitors. You saying you were going after institutional. I remember at the time, Coinbase were going after retail. What was it that Gemini was doing?

Speaker B: So Gemini did want retail as well. I think what Gemini did, their messaging in the beginning, they were very much leaning into regulation, whereas other players were not necessarily leaning out from it, but it was maybe an afterthought. And Gemini's, um, motto at that time was ask for permission, not forgiveness. And I think what they were doing is they were thinking ahead. We don't need to be regulated, we don't need to necessarily be jumping through these hoops right now, but we will eventually. They did see what would naturally be coming down the line and that was, um, a very good strategy for them to lean into it and be doing things properly and taking best practice from TradFi and implementing that into their businesses. So I'm not sure whether it was the right thing to do, of course. Well, we could argue it either way. I do think that, uh, it was the right strategy at the time, but it was genuinely at the expense of growth. Right. You look back. So whilst of course I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have done that and lean into regulation, you sacrifice customers, you sacrifice growth, you sacrifice revenue. So you also need to keep that in mind and how you're going to keep ahead and keep driving the business forward and not get too caught up. Because the reality is, or was at that Point they weren't necessarily rewarded for doing it like that. So, I mean, things have changed now. Different legislations a couple years later, you know, many, many years, sort of. It feels like the dog years of crypto. But if you're looking at, ah, 2021, 2022, let's look at someone, ah, we can name names. Let's look at Binance didn't touch, you know, regulation at all. They are the biggest in the world. They have onboarded, you know, many m, many millions of retail clients, um, and also captured a big chunk of the institutional market because they were giving institutions what they wanted and needed. It's namely liquidity, uh, and volumes at what cost. So of course now we look at Binance and um, they are trying to pedal back on certain things and they are going heavy down regulatory lines. But the point is there are a lot of competitors, not just Binance, that were able to grow a lot faster than Gemini because they had chosen to just grow the business and worry about and implement regulations later. So I'm not here to say who's right, who's wrong. It was just a different strategy, a different way of doing things, um, and we'll see who wins out in the end. I think there's going to be a lot of consolidation in the market this year, um, as already has been and there will be more. And I'm sure you're going to ask me about Gemini ceasing operations at some point.

Speaker A: I will in a minute, but I think what's, what's interesting in my. Well, my view is that it's best to play it straight.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And to, to have longevity, because my view is you'll win out in the end. And I wonder if they'd stuck around a bit more because we are going to come to that maybe that there would be a market because as adoption has grown, people do want to be able to trade or exchange or custody with sensible, properly regulated people. Now, you know, Binance has moved to Abu Dhabi now and doesn't want to talk to anybody in England. And I think GE blocked. I'm not entirely sure you can even access without vpn. So my view is it's almost like Gemini were doing the right thing at the time and if they could just hold on a little bit longer, they would have cleared the hurdle. And you have anticipated my next question, which was as of 6 April 2026, Gemini ceased operations in the UK market after a campaign blitz in London. We were speaking earlier about the mammoth, the woolly mammoths on the side of the buses, um, and on the tube as well. What happened?

Speaker B: So I've been out two years, so I remember m. Two years since, um, my time. But I can only speculate in terms of sort of what I've seen and what I've heard. And Gemini has always been a very US centric company and perhaps they just thought, let's just focus on our own backyard. Um, I think it's become harder and harder to operate in the UK and Europe, um, over the last few years in some ways for good reason. Uh, and some other ways just m. Difficult. Brexit, etc. You know, FCA having to do one thing, they've got Mika in Europe doing others. It's, you know, it's not harmonized. I think that's a big problem for any business trying to grow UK and Europe at the same time. But like you say, I think it's a real shame, you know, London is, and I still believe, such a hub, um, and um, a great place to grow businesses. I think we do need to have a little bit more support from the regulators and the government for companies who do want to grow and thrive here. Um, so I think they just decided to focus on their local market. They knew that they have much bigger operational teams over there. Um, and I think with Gemini, they've also closed Australia, I believe. Yes, they also closed Australia, um, and the rest of the Europe as well. So it's consolidation, it's consolidation and maybe just, you know, focus back, back the horse that they know the best.

Speaker A: Well, it's interesting because I had a look on their website recently. I hadn't been on Gemini in a while. I used to really enjoy going on Gemini, buying things. I thought it was a good app and I felt in safe hands. But I haven't been on in a while. I went on the other day and it looks like it's now for trading, investing, predicting. I recently saw they were taking bets on UEFA Champions League semifinal results, uh, Tesla Optimus release dates, Eurovision win a little bit like Polymarket, which has obviously got its own market itself. Do you have any thoughts on this pivot and why they might have done that?

Speaker B: They saw some revenue there, I guess. A, uh, lot of people have been going down the prediction market route, uh, especially in the us. So I think it was, you know, perhaps they'd done some research into their existing client base, ask them what they want. Perhaps that's what customers had asked for. Perhaps they realized they were losing customers going to other platforms that were offering that. I just don't I'm speculating. I really don't know. Um, but I think what's important for them, I hope they'll continue to maintain this narrative of sort of doing things the right way and not taking the shortcuts. And this is a thriving market in itself and perhaps they can be the provider of this market that's still a little bit more sophisticated, refined, um, and doing things in a way that's going to be best for them, but also best for their customers and has longevity.

Speaker A: I think that's right. And it just is a little bit of a shame to me because it feels like they did all the right things for years and as. And when that's important, they pivoted, but.

Speaker B: But they did the right things. And like I say, they wouldn't. They weren't rewarded. I remember we had a really interesting meeting. Um, the Cameron and Tyler Winklegoss came to the UK and we did a road show and we went to Downing Street. We met with Jeremy hunt. This was 2022, I believe, uh, or 23, perhaps 23. And Jeremy was very welcoming, big hugs all around. Said, right. He had just a very blatant question. What can we do to get Gemini to bring their HQ to the uk? It's like, well, you've got to support crypto firm, um, for a start. And beyond supporting, you've got to support the ones exactly as you say, doing things properly. And I was very blunt with Mr. Hunt and I said, we have all been tarnished with the same brush. We have jumped through all the hoops, we've done everything properly, we've worked very closely with the fca, we've proactively gone to them, um, asking for more time to help them shape future regulatory frameworks. But when it came down to new implementations, when it came down to reviews of everything going on, didn't matter whether you're Gemini, whether you're Binance, whether you're Coinbase, everybody was just treated the same and tarnished with the same brush, whether you're on that FCA crypto asset register or not. And Gemini was one of the first, if not the first, yeah, uh, on that register. And then 20, 30, 70, 80 came after that. But there was no. And it's not, say, we don't want a prize, we don't want a reward, but if you're going through all of that process, then there has to be some differentiation between you and the ones who either are not on that list or have no intention of being on the list. Now, I understand that all firms, whether they're regulators or not have to reapply. So everyone on that list now has to go for new authorization. And I just hope that the ones who then maybe get that second authorization authorization are going to be given more support um, than what they have done in the past compared to people who don't care about being on the register

Speaker A: either way, talking about support, very good segue into what you do. So then you founded, after leaving Gemini, you founded the crypto collective the world, and I quote, the world's first strategic consultancy firm focused solely on institutional digital assets space. End quote. That's from your website. Um, in a nutshell, tell us what you do and who it's for.

Speaker B: Okay, so we have two prompts to the business but they work very closely together. Ultimately we're a strategic growth strategy and communications business and we work with institutions either coming into the space, maybe they're on the tradfi side of the fence or they are crypto native. So we have both. I co founded the company uh, with a lady called Lauren Shepperson and she was our CMO and head of communications at Gemini. So that's why I talk about the two prongs of the business and what we do. Going back to what I mentioned earlier, we're really a bridge. Um, and so we work with companies, um, on strategy, um, execution of go to market strategy, working with companies who could be focusing both on institutional and retail clients, helping adoption. Uh, and we do this through my background which is that very commercial go to market side, uh, but also with Lauren's help on that uh, communications, marketing and PR element. So of course all companies want exposure, they all want pr, they all want the hits in the top tier media. Um, but how do you get there? How do you do that? So this is the two parts of the business sort of work together with that strategy to create those moments that will uh, give them that visibility.

Speaker A: So I suppose all of the technical stuff has been done by the company. Again they need that human element getting their communications. That's where you come from.

Speaker B: Yeah, so communications and working with um, with exec teams and founders to actually launch products as well.

Speaker A: Um, I'm going to again quote from your website. I have to do this a lot to make sure I get the wording right. In your services on the Website it includes 1 cross functional strategic advisory work, 2 management and operational support, 3 go to market strategy and 4, board advisory. Um, it'll be worth I think explaining a little bit more about some of these in more detail if you can.

Speaker B: Sure, absolutely. So a lot of our clients, we have come to us, uh, perhaps wanting to hire myself or Lauren into full time roles and which is lovely, very flattering, but what we've said to them is like, you actually don't need that, you don't need me to be your CEO, you don't need Lauren to be your cmo. Because especially in the crypto space, as you all know, companies scale so fast. And what they need, uh, in month one versus month six and month 12 can be very, very different. So you know our business model, we joke, but it's kind of true. We come in, we ruffle a lot of feathers, we break things that then it's painful, but we leave people a lot better off than where we found them.

Speaker A: I suppose that's consultancy in a nutshell, isn't it? You go in, you annoy loads of people, you break stuff, you put it back together in the way that it should be.

Speaker B: Yes, well, we move the company forward and we started this business. One of the reasons, when I was at Gemini, some of the very, you know, big tier one, um, banks will come to us asset managers, they'll come with 15 analysts from PwC in tow who are there just learning on everyone else's dime, writing a very shiny report, handing it over at the end. That would have no impact on the business, would not drive anything forward, nothing would really get implemented. And so what we wanted to do was create consultancy where we would embed ourselves in teams, we become extensions of those teams and then we would really drive things forward, give people frameworks that they can then use, teach people how to fish. So going back to those, uh, points one to four, the sort of operational support that, uh, operational strategy, I will go in, I will be on client site with people, um, once a week, twice a week, depending on the engagement. And I'll be there almost interim, whatever they want me to be, but teaching other people around me or guiding other people around me, answering questions, brainstorming, working, uh, with entire teams at different, different sort of functions and stages, um, making sure that they are putting together something that is going to last. So in terms of how we do that, that can be through multiple avenues. One thing we do is institutional research. And so again coming back to the point, um, people come to Lauren and they want great PR and they want communications, they want their messaging out there and they want to be in the FT and the Wall Street Journal, they want to be on Bloomberg and the cnbc, but that's very difficult. Uh, everyone else, it's exactly, it's never been a more aggressive news environment. One person thinks it's news is generally not your small announcement that is great

Speaker A: for you and your team and m your little world.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great but it's not front page news. So uh, we work with companies, we create institutional research for them that becomes the hook for that media and then it's got multipurpose uses. Beyond sort of the hook for media, it can also make the backbone of a 12 month marketing strategy. You can also make marketing collateral for BDN sales teams going out, meeting potential investors or potential customers. So um, that's one way in which we work. And then as you mentioned the go to market strategic advisory. So I will help exec teams put that strategy in place, start that execution. Um, and then also so we look at we're not a marketing agency, we're not PR agency but we are advisory on that side. So we'll look at people's marketing architecture and we'll do reviews or make suggestions of how they can improve things um, and make things better.

Speaker A: Is it a matter then that you want to go and help them but you don't want to be there full time, is that right? You sort of want to teach them everything, give them the tools and then step away because by the time you've left them they should be fully equipped to deal with whatever segment they need to deal with.

Speaker B: Yes, they should be equipped but as we mentioned things change as businesses scale. So I think it's slightly nuanced in terms of, I think the fourth point was um, board advisory.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So often what will happen, we'll go in and we'll work very closely with different teams, um, for a period of say 6m months. We'll get them into that better spot where they're able to go off and fish by themselves. But then the engagement might evolve in terms of Lauren maybe just on standby, um, and having bi weekly or monthly meetings with a head of PR and comms or head of marketing to give um, sort of feedback on things or helping when there's just like a big moment in time. You know if there's an IPO coming up or a fundraise or roadshow and sort of coming in ad hoc for that. Um, and then myself I might join a board or say on just as a board advisor as things sort of progress. So as those again those moments in time come people can call on me for that strategic advice. But we've come out of that intense sort of say six month window and

Speaker A: deliverables and why would. And um, I think you've already answered this, but I'm going to ask you direct, why would people use you over another consultancy firm? Because there aren't that many specific consultancy firms this. And you know, you could have one of the big four turn up, as you say, and then they're taking notes on other people's time. So what is it about the crypto collective and your team that is. I was going to say better, but yeah, let's use that word. Better than everyone else.

Speaker B: Absolutely better. I think that's quite an easy question to answer. Uh, um, and I'm sure you'll agree with me being in this space in a different way, but in this space yourself, this is an industry that is not theoretical at all, it's practical. And I think unless you've been on the front line, in the trenches, you can't just academically understand. You can academically read about something and understand a concept, but unless you've been within multiple companies in the space, seeing how things operate, it's just not the same. I mean I've seen plenty of people come over from very experienced, very successful people come over from TRADFI into crypto and it's another world for them. And it doesn't necessarily work out, um, because you don't. It's not just a sort of back to back translatable, uh, system. So whether that's from a compliance governance perspective, yes, you're trying to implement TRADFI policies, procedures, it's very different whether it's go to market. The nuance around how you position businesses in this space, how you communicate with investors and clients is very, very different. And I just don't think you can do that successfully unless you've worked in the industry yourself.

Speaker A: I couldn't agree more. As you say, I'm in a completely different space to you, but in the same sector. And I find often that if you don't have the experience certainly in, I, uh, mean I do litigation as well, so it's even more sort of nuance. But if you don't have the experience in litigation, in dealing with these kind of assets, then you are very much further behind than someone who's maybe read a book on it. And that hands on experience makes such a difference. So it's definitely worth making sure that if anybody wants to hire anybody, they have the experience to do so. And obviously you're one of them. You and I have some mutual interests and contacts. Most memorably, of course, Uranium I.O. i was messaging Ben this morning saying I was Seeing you, which is very nice. And we had an event last year, I think it was, wasn't it here at my offices. They um, hold or they allow people to hold uranium uh, as retail which is a fantastic use for asset backed tokens. I use it all the time as a reason why tokens are a really good idea. Talk us through some of the things that you've done for clients, maybe by reference to uranium IO uh, so uranium

Speaker B: was absolutely fascinating use case and for me a perfect use case for rwa. RWA have been talked about for years and every year this is the year of RWA. Let's see whether it's going to be 2026.

Speaker A: It's not this year I don't think so far.

Speaker B: Not so far.

Speaker A: Who knows?

Speaker B: It's April, we have time. It's true. Um, so uranium was a really interesting use case, very provocative subjects. Uh, people sort of jump to conclusions of why would anyone want uranium? Um, it's only for nuclear warfare. But that's just not the case. Uranium is absolutely critical to the future of AI and data centers and we all care about that because we can't live without our devices and Claude and ChatGPT and where is the energy for that coming from? Um, and so uranium was a commodity which had a very difficult route to access, very high minimum tickets, 5, $6 million depending on where the spot price is, very opaque pricing. And so really unless you're a big institution, uh, you can't access it. And even if you're an institution you still have a lot of friction points. So um, tokenizing uranium was really, really interesting use case to sort of prove that tokenization works and is necessary. And yes, whilst the first market, um, entry point was on centralized exchanges uh, for retail users we've had incredible conversations with tier, uh one banks, can't mention names and big asset managers and funds and commodities funds who are already trading uranium but they can't get enough of it or they can't get the right pricing. So they are looking to access commodity they've been trading for years but through the token which really proves the point, um, that it is sort of necessary and there is a demand for it. So with the uranium team going back to what we talked about and how we help and how we get things to market, of course they wanted uh, that sort of operational help of how do we launch this, how do we get it onto exchanges, how do we negotiate with the market makers, how do we market it, um, and most importantly how do we get a big bang press moment and I said, well, if we go to Bloomberg or NASDAQ or CNBC and just say, hey, we've tokenized uranium, no one's going to care, no one's going to listen. And also, it's a tricky one because is it a commodity story? Is it a crypto story? Uh, all of the above. And so we worked with them first with the foundational, uh, strategic advice and very much embedded in the team taking it to market and launching on the exchanges. But then we created, uh, some research first. Um, the first one we did in the summer, we worked with an incredible data agency that polled 600, uh, investors globally, getting their understanding of tokenization, but also the commodity space. And, um, the findings were really, really fascinating. And then we translated all of this into the first research report that came out last summer. Uh, and then a more recent one, um, December, January, just gone, which was again, actually about the future of AI and data centers and how uranium is critical to this. So then handing it over to Lauren and her team on the marketing comm side, she was able to go to Top Tier Media and say, hey, we've got an incredible proprietary research report here that actually they all wanted to read. And we were invited onto NASDAQ trade talks, um, to talk about the project. We had a hit in Wall Street Journal, January, February. And that wouldn't have come about unless we had gone down that research route, which was that. So, uh, something giving people something tangible, valuable and interesting beyond just high. We've tokenized a commodity.

Speaker A: It was about you creating a story and a narrative rather than, as you say, rather than a headline. It's, we've got the headline, but this is what people think about it. This is why it's important. And then that was the value.

Speaker B: Indeed.

Speaker A: Yeah, I remember I was reading it because we had the. What was it? It was a release, I was going to say release party. That's not quite right. It was, it was talking about the initial report and I remember reading it, it was just fascinating about how, how difficult it was to buy uranium, obviously for retail, but for organizations generally, and how there was such a large appetite to do it. And that was part of the story that you spoke about. Um, I think. Last question. Although it's the last question I've got written down. I have a terrible habit of making up questions. I go on listening, um, to industry. There's a quiet optimism about England as a jurisdiction to do business. You may or may not disagree. Uh, that's overcome by a sense that we've missed out over the last Few years, people have spoken about how some regimes in the Middle east are not fit for purpose. The US market being too expensive to enter, uh, and some Asian markets being plagued by fraud and immaturity. Given that we've got legislation coming into force next year which makes dealing with digital assets a regulated activity. Do you think we've played a good long game here or have we missed the boat in England?

Speaker B: Have we played a good long game? I don't think we played a great long game, but I don't think all is lost. Um, I think we've made some mistakes along the way. I think that the UK used, um, the COVID years as a bit of an excuse of why we stagnated, but then other markets were not stagnating. And I think that's the key point there. You know, Europe obviously went, ah, down the road with Mica, and whilst it wasn't perfect and still is not, it was a framework.

Speaker A: It was something.

Speaker B: It was something. It was a starting point. Um, and whereas the FCA was sort of trying to retrofit, um, rules that just don't really work and, you know, they had to do something again. But I think everyone learned the hard way, whether you're on the FCA side or on the, on the company side, that we have to have something fit for purpose. Um, and that's hopefully what's coming about now. There's this new, um, regulation coming in next year. So I think the good news is for the uk, that London has always been a hub, um, and a place that people want to be. But this needs work to be done of how to keep people here and encourage people who have left to come back. So I think that will be the steep hill that we have to climb. And that's not just for crypto. Right? That's for multiple industries. For everything. Yes, for everything. So, um, we've missed a couple of boats, but because London has such a strong starting point, I think we can still make it. I hope we can. Yeah. For our sakes.

Speaker A: I get this sense that there is positivity. It's just a matter of we've had to wait for other jurisdictions to come up and not disappear, but sort of tumble over themselves or there's a reason for them not to be a chosen jurisdiction and maybe, maybe we'll just get it right.

Speaker B: Yes, I think we can do it, but it's not going to be easy.

Speaker A: Should we leave on that note, Stephanie, thank you very much.

Speaker B: Thank you.