Gardening has a "green" problem as explained by Back Porch pots

Speaker A: I think the. The thing that I most want people to keep in mind is that things like recycling aren't going to get us where we need to be M. We need to be talking about how we create a regenerative society, circular society, so that we're not unnecessarily making things that are designed to be thrown away. That's not how nature works. Nature uses literally everything that exists in it.

Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of, uh, our mini podcast, I Built a Company that Makes a difference by B1. Here we talk to founders of sustainable businesses to get their takes on how and why they started their companies and the lessons that they've learned along the way. Today, I'm here with Heather Higginbotham, the co founder and CEO of Back Porch Pots, whose goal is to transform the gardening and nursery industries to a system of reuse, shifting the culture from disposable to sustainable. So, Heather, I've talked to a lot of entrepreneurs on this podcast and have been introduced to both ideas for sustainability that were completely ingenuous, and I've never, ever thought of that before, as well as problems causing planet degradation that I've never considered or imagined. And I would put Back Porch Pots into that second category. So you guys are taking aim at a problem that I. I've never really considered before, which is waste associated with gardening. So I'm very excited to get into this conversation. Thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here, uh, and share our lessons that we've learned along the way and how we actually decided to tackle this problem that a lot of people don't even pay attention to.

Speaker B: Wonderful. Let's start at the beginning then. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background all the way through the founding of Backporch Bots?

Speaker A: Sure. Uh, so I did not come from a retail or a manufacturing background. Uh, I have been working in sustainability and climate action for the last 25 years. I started in the nonprofit sector. I worked for our local government for many years, uh, in our sustainability office, working on building climate action plans, um, and running energy efficiency programs. I taught at our local university here, climate leadership and sustainable business courses. Uh, so I've always been coming at this world more from the education standpoint. And as I was doing this work, um, it became increasingly clear to me that the systems that we are operating in are a big part of the problem. And so I grew up thinking, oh, if I just recycle enough, if I just educate Enough people to buy sustainably and do the right thing, then we can change the world. Um, I'm a little less naive and a little more jaded now and realizing that even though the system is working exactly as designed, the design is to keep us consuming indefinitely at all costs. And that is the foundation of the problem that we're looking at as we try to address climate change, try to address plastic waste, try to address all of these systemic, um, issues that are destroying the environment.

Speaker B: So you, when you say locally, you're talking about in Montana, right?

Speaker A: Yes, yes. So I worked for, uh, the city government where I worked and I taught at Montana State University. And it was incredibly rewarding and then just got more and more frustrating as I realized I can educate people all day long and we can all get frustrated, but the systems that we're working in are what we ultimately need to shift. Uh, so I'll use, just use recycling as an example. Uh, we were sold recycling as this silver bullet solution of if you just recycle, everything's going to be great and we don't have to worry about plastic pollution. That's not actually true. As we know, recycling was designed by big plastic as a ruse to convince consumers to use single use plastic. It was never financially viable, it was never technologically viable. Plastic as a, as a material can't be recycled into the same type of plastic. It can only be down cycled. And so we as consumers are led to believe that if I do this sustainable behavior, I'm doing my part, but really it's just smoke and mirrors. We're being tricked into, uh, perpetuating an unsustainable system. And so I stepped away from the work that I was doing there and started to focus more on helping businesses learn how to operate sustainability within their own framework, um, reducing the impact that they're putting out. Uh, but then also ended up finding myself in this weird position of owning a business that's manufacturing and starting back porch pots, which I never in a million years thought that I would end up doing. Um, it really came about during COVID I was sitting on the back porch with my co founder and trying to figure out why we couldn't find any reusable garden pots. Um, this was during COVID so we had plenty of time on our hands. Um, but we'd been looking for years and every year we would start searching and searching and searching and didn't see anything. And so when the world was shut down, we sat there and had a conversation. And he said, well, why don't we make them. And I said, I don't know anything about manufacturing, but why not? And so we embarked on this crazy journey to hire an engineering firm to help us design the actual, um, size and structure of the pots, figure out what materials to use. Uh, and it was about a year long process of trying to really look at that from a systems perspective of how can we make something that's not just adding more or creating a new problem, but, but is actually solving an existing problem.

Speaker B: So for the, let's say the urbanites maybe amongst us, or folks who have never gardened before. Can you describe what you're talking about?

Speaker A: Yes. So overview of the problem. In the gardening industry, a lot of times people don't think about this, but if you think about landscaping, if you think about people planting flowers for the summer, everybody has some. Well, not everybody, not Antarctica, but sometime throughout the year people are like, I want to be outside, I want it to be pretty and I want to have my yard look like this. And so they hire a company to either come do their landscaping or they go to the garden center and they buy some flowers and, and plant them in their yard or on their front porch or back patio or whatever. Um, all of those plants come in single use plastic pots. Hundreds of millions of pots every single year get manufactured for the sole purpose of being used once and then thrown in the trash. Uh, and when I started paying attention to that, it was just really depressing, uh, because I, I didn't grow up gardening. I, I'm not like, oh, I need to be completely self sufficient and grow all my own food and drop off the grid. Um, but I do enjoy, uh, homegrown tomatoes, which are vastly different than what you can get in the grocery store. Um, and I love pretty flowers. And so I was starting to learn more about gardening, um, but I was looking at it from the sustainability lens of why are we making this thing that we don't have to make, that we throw away every single year that is completely destroying the natural world? So plastic is breaking down into smaller and smaller pieces, polluting the oceans and the waterways and the soil with microplastics. We don't even know the impacts of microplastics on the human body. That's just starting to get studied. Um, but it seemed very clear that the way we were doing things may not be the most logical or best approach. Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely not for the long term. So I did grow up gardening and I do remember my mom used to go a lot to the nursery, but for, for, for certain types of flowers. But for us, we had packets and packets and drawers and rows of seeds. Is there and, and I don't, and I don't know the answer, but you might. Is there from just a gardening perspective, um, an advantage. Besides, the plant is already sprouted and matured and you can transfer it and it's a little bit of an easier process, um, to frequent nurseries and buy plants in, in pots.

Speaker A: So that's sort of a multi part answer. Uh, the first answer is it is exponentially simpler to go to the garden store and buy something that's already been grown by somebody that knows what they're doing. I didn't start things from seed. When I started growing, I bought all of my plants already mature, um, enough to the point where all I had to do is put them in the ground. Um, I'm still one of those gardeners that I wake up every day and I look at my plants and I'm like, oh my God, they're still alive. I'm learning along the way. This is a new world for me. Um, starting plants from seed is much more time consuming. Um, but there are a lot of benefits as well. So I don't expect that the majority of people in the world are going to start growing their own things from seed. Um, it's very, uh, labor intensive. It takes awareness and knowledge of gardening practices. Um, and it takes time. But the advantage of that is you know exactly what seed you're getting, you know where it came from, you know if it's organic or if it's gmo, or if you saved it from your bell peppers last year and are just replanting it. Uh, it's infinitely cheaper to buy a packet of seeds that has 25, 50, 100 seeds in it that you can grow plants from. Um, and then all you need to do is have the soil and the compost and, you know, the light source and the water to grow it. But the biggest advantage from that is you know exactly how that plant has been grown and what has been put on it. So when you're buying things from the grocery or from the garden center, you don't know what kind of soil they used. You don't know, uh, if it has any additives in it, if it has any, uh, contaminants in it. You don't know if they used any pesticides or herbicides on the product. Uh, you can buy organic starts of some, some plant and vegetable, or vegetable and flower options. Um, but there's no way to truly know unless you're buying it. From a local farm that is selling starts that you can say, hey, I'm at the farmer's market, I'm going to buy this cucumber. What kind of seed is it? Is it organic? You know, did you put anything in it? Does it have any additives, et cetera? And so from the, uh, health and sustainability side of it, and also the cost side of it, it's much cheaper. And, um, you have more information about what your plant, where your plant came from.

Speaker B: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So it was Covid, and you were sitting on your back porch and you were just discussing this problem that you've had, and you were really irrit how a lot of businesses start. And you were like, all right, let's just do this ourselves. Can you talk to us, and more importantly, about the folks in our audience who are looking to start a manufacturing business or that manufacture something of some kind in their, in their product chain? What was the first thing that you did? Um, you mentioned you. You worked with an engineer. How did you find that engineer? Um, is it somebody associated with the university? Or, like, how did you go about. How did you even know what the first step was?

Speaker A: Uh, we were definitely making it up as we went along. I think the. So the very first thing we did was, after googling for years, trying to find silicone pots, um, was learn how to run a Kickstarter campaign. Uh, because we knew that that was going to be the way to launch it. Because in order to do manufacturing of a product depends, uh, on what product it is, but you're going to have a lot of components of that. You have to have a mold to actually make the product. You have to have a manufacturing company that's going to do the work of that. You have to figure out what raw materials you're using. And so we knew that Kickstarter was going to be our launch off point. Um, but we also knew that there were a lot of things that we didn't know. And so rather than just taking our best assumptions and calling it good, we started looking for, uh, companies that specifically work with prototypes, um, because we didn't want to invest a whole lot of time and money into building something that wasn't correct and wasn't what people needed. And so we started doing some market research, reaching out to gardeners, um, because like I said, neither one of us were gardeners and had that experience. And so we realized we need to actually talk to actually people that do this for a living and know what they're talking about. And we Said what would make sense? What do people need in this industry? What do you as a grower need? Um, that would work for your application. And so we already knew that compostable, uh, starter pots existed and we've tried them. We live in Montana, we have a very short growing season. Um, I like to joke that we have like 17 seconds of frost free days, um, more like 60. But it's, it's challenging. So, uh, if, if I'm growing something in a compostable pot, the point is that the soil is going to get warm enough and the growing season is going to be long enough that those roots are going to spread out and the pot's going to decompose throughout the course of the gardening season. But what I was finding is that my plants were just getting root bound and stuck in the soil because that's,

Speaker B: that's very, I wouldn't have thought of that either. Okay.

Speaker A: So I knew we didn't want to do compostable. And also people are already making that, so it didn't make sense. Um, the reusability aspect of it really was born from so many conversations with so many people and having a garage full myself of all of these black plastic pots that I had collected over the years and I felt really guilty about throwing away. Uh, they're really hard to clean, they're really brittle, they break easy, but everybody saves them. Um, every person I know that plants or gardens, they're like, we've got, there's got to be something we can do with these. They take them back to Home Depot, they take them back to the garden center, and then the garden center is stuck with this big giant trash of black plastic that they can't do anything with. There are some that claim that they can be recycled, but they're not actually, uh, recycled in the sense that we think of back into, uh, pots again. Um, like I was talking about earlier with plastic only being down cycled, they're also incredibly hard to clean. So you don't know if you're going to have, um, mold or bacteria, uh, from whatever was in there the last time. And so we knew that we had to have a product that was, um, non toxic, that wasn't going to leach anything into the soil, had to be flexible so you could get the pots or the plants out without damaging the roots. And then it also, the reusability aspect of it was really important. Um, because if we're trying to make something that you only have to buy once and get to use over and over and over again, it has to be incredibly durable. So we landed on silicone as a raw material. Uh, the company that we worked with, it's a company out of Georgia that um, builds prototypes for startups. Uh, so it was really cool. They've got a team of engineers, we had material science engineers, we had design engineers that helped us come up not only with the design, but also the different materials, um, that we could look at. And so, uh, they went out and did research on their end, we did research on our end. And so we were looking at, uh, do we want to use, um, is there anything that we could make out of mycelium? Because ideally, like a natural based material that's renewable would be incredible. But then we're looking at something that would end up being compostable and that's not the route we were trying to go. Um, we couldn't use something like metal because it's not flexible enough. And then also if we're looking at aluminum that is toxic to plants, which I didn't know when we started this process. So when we were talking to summer gardeners and saying, hey, what about this, what about that? They're like, oh yeah, no, that, that's going to kill everything. So good information to have that we didn't.

Speaker B: That you did market research.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, and while I fully admit that silicone is not the perfect solution, given the technology that we have right now, it is the best material that we could use that we knew could be non toxic, it's benign, it's not going to leach anything into the soil. Uh, it's the same material, uh, we use only FDA certified, uh, food grade silicone. So it's 100% silicone with no additives. Same stuff they make baby bottles out of. Um, but it is not 100% fossil fuel free. And so I'm still always keeping an eye on the technology world of are we going to be able to come up with something, um, that has the same properties, the flexibility, the durability, the benign aspect of it that doesn't have any fossil fuel, uh, component? Because that's ultimately where we want to go. But given what we have right now, this is the best option that we could come up with.

Speaker B: Wow. This is, and this is your kind of, this is still your V1 because you guys have launched very, very recently.

Speaker A: Yes. So we took about a year working with the engineering firm to design the prototypes. We made a few prototypes, sent them out to gardeners all across the country. We had Alaska, uh, Florida, Maine, Southern California, Hawaii, um, Central, central US Montana. So we Tried to get every, um, climate you could and then had gardeners test them for a whole season. So they grew their starts in there, uh, all the way up to transplant. And then we got feedback from them, um, uh, does the material work? Does the product design work? And from that feedback, we actually re the material we stuck with. But we redesigned the shape and the size of them, uh, based on what Gardner said, uh, would work better for their applications. And then we redesigned them and launched the Kickstarter campaign in December, or, sorry, November of 2021. And so that campaign went in the winter of, uh, 2021. And then after the campaign ended, we were, we were all set to work with a manufacturer in the United States. And, uh, it was right during the height of COVID Madness and the prices that we had tripled, uh, for any manufacturing based in the US So we had to scramble and find a new manufacturer. Um, we knew 100% we weren't willing to go to a manufacturer that didn't have transparency and that we couldn't actually verify where they were getting the raw materials from, that they were, uh, treating their employees well and living wage and all of that. And so we didn't want to manufacture, um, that we didn't have control over any of that. So we ended up finding a manufacturer in India that has, uh, certifications that are important to us, and we could get the traceability certificates for all the raw materials. Uh, they're a signatory to the UN Global Compact and Ecovada certified as a company. So those things told us that they actually pay attention and are, um, trying to do the right thing in their manufacturing business. It is our goal to come back manufacturing in the United States, which it looks like we're going to be able to do this fall as things have kind of calmed down a little bit. So our next, our next, uh, production run, hopefully will be manufactured in the US

Speaker B: So. Oh, my gosh. I have so many questions for our audience. On behalf of our audience. One, let's go way back. Can you talk to me about your experience working, like, building a Kickstarter campaign and having to do the marketing for that launch, blah, blah, all of it. How did, how was that for you?

Speaker A: That was a wild experience. Um, it was very intense. I had never done one before. I had a couple friends that had launched Kickstarters for things like documentary films. And so I was able to lean on some friends and say, hey, how did you navigate this? What are the most important things I need to make sure we're focusing on? Um, but A lot of it was just kind of fly by the seat of my pants, um, and hope it works. It was, uh, we had a lot of conversations about where do we set our minimum, uh, goal? Uh, because with Kickstarter, if you don't meet your goal, then you don't get funded for anything. So you have to make sure that you meet your goal. Um, but also if you set it too low, then people are like, oh, well, they don't actually need any money to launch this business, so why would I fund this campaign? And then you have to create a really compelling argument and campaign. And so for us, I mean, it took us a couple years to get to the point where we, or a year and a half to get to the point where we could actually launch the Kickstarter campaign. And when we launched it, we did not have a manufacturer, we did not have, uh, manufacturing costs. So it was definitely a leap of faith because everything that I had lined up for us to actually go to market fell apart about two weeks before we were launching the campaign. And so we debated, do we, do we push it back? Do we not even launch? Do we wait until we've got all of these things figured out? We decided to move forward with it. Um, and thankfully we were able to have all the pieces come together. But we knew that if we didn't launch it, then it would take an entire another year to be able to do it. Because of the seasonality of gardening. Mhm. Because people are only planting things specific time of the year in the summer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so the, the Kickstarter platform was relatively simple to navigate. There are a lot of good, um, help resources and tutorials, tons of videos that you can watch. There are companies that you can hire to run your Kickstarter campaign for you. Uh, which makes sense, but also seems kind of weird because if you're trying to run, run a campaign to raise money to launch a business, probably don't have a lot of extra to hire somebody else to do it. Um, but so we ended up doing almost all of it just completely on our own. Uh, we did invest. One of the most important things I think about that process was our, our video. Um, yeah, because so much of the world is visual and digital and online. And so, uh, we hired a videographer to help us create our little Kickstarter video, uh, which has now been edited and lives on our website because it's so beautiful. She did such an incredible job. We had a local, uh, local celebrity that, that I'm friends with, uh, do the, the voiceover for it. And it just, I think that was really the probably foundational success of the campaign was having that, that was very clear, very simple, easy to digest, um, and visually interesting. And so I think if anyone is looking at crowdsourcing, that is definitely an important piece of it. And then also using your network, like we asked all of our friends and family to help share the campaign and uh, even friends of ours that didn't, that aren't gardeners, contributed to the campaign either just financially or said, hey, I'm going to buy this for my mother in law because I don't garden but she does or you know, whatever just to help get that momentum. Um, and then another thing I learned is the first 24 hours of a Kickstarter campaign are the most important. Like if you don't gain traction and get to a pretty solid percentage of your goal in that first day, your project is going to be buried underneath everything.

Speaker B: That's a good. Oh, that's a good pointer. I did not know that.

Speaker A: I didn't either. And it was a little intimidating.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so the first 24 hours. Goodness. Okay. Um, okay, so that was Kickstarter. Okay, great, that worked out for you because some, I've talked to some businesses that were like, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't make our goals. We were kicked off the platform or I don't think Kickstarter, but some other, some other crowdsourcing platforms. So that's good to know. Um, in that first, I don't know, let's see, let's go. The first six months of business, what was that like? Were you doing, did you have other activities or were you doing this full time? And it was like firefight. What was it like?

Speaker A: Uh, definitely firefighting. And I, uh, wasn't then and I still am not doing this full time. I have a part time job and other things that I'm trying to juggle as I grow this. So that makes it even more challenging because I'm the only one running the business. So I'm doing the social media, I'm doing the marketing, I'm doing the web management, which I know nothing about. You know, all of these pieces of running a business. I'm making sure we have all of our legal paperwork in order. Um, and it's a lot. So the first six months of running the business after the Kickstarter campaign, we're, we're essentially a lot of updates to our backers saying thanks guys for your patience. We're still trying to figure out manufacturing, um, because it took us a solid. So our Kickstarter campaign ended uh, in December and then uh, we didn't have a manufacturer until uh, June and then it took us until October to get our first production run of product. And so we were 10 months past the um, end date of the campaign and what we had hoped for, and our goal in the campaign was we were going to deliver by mid February so people could use them in gardening season 2022. Sadly, uh, that didn't work out, uh, but everybody was super gracious and understanding so we, we missed an entire gardening season. But it was necessary because of all the pieces we had to get put in place. We had to design the new molds, uh, we had to get uh, prototypes from the new molds for the new design sent to us and make sure that they were actually what we had uh, given to the, the manufacturer and that they were accurate. And there were a couple things that needed to be tweaked um, after that. And then we had to wait because there was a silicone raw material shortage during that time too. So that was fun. Um, yeah, it was a, it was a wild time in, in manufacturing for I imagine everybody, uh, but especially for two people that had never been in this world before. So yes, we, uh, I, I think one of the biggest lessons for me in all of this was patience and sense of humor and slayed plans are just that. Mhm. Hm.

Speaker B: Wow. Okay. All right. So what does your day look like if not an average day? What would your week look like with working part time but also doing this, but every single aspect of this business? What is your day slash week look like?

Speaker A: Um, so my, my daughter is pretty sure that I'm a workaholic, which is really funny because I very intentionally not to be, but having so many things that I am trying to navigate and juggle, um, certainly makes it look like I am. Uh, so I have a part time job that I work 20 hours a week. Uh, I'm a single parent, so I'm juggling doctor's appointments and you know, schedules and all of that and then managing the household and running everything there and then trying to find time to do this and also trying to find time to take care of myself and make sure that I'm, you know, mentally stable, which is kind of an important piece of, of this. Uh, so I think, I mean I could say that I have, you know, I have this set schedule and I wake up and I make sure that I do this and I do that, but I don't because that doesn't work for me. I, I uh, have learned that when I put myself in a position of all the things that I need to do and uh, trying to get them all done at once, I just freeze and go into overwhelm and do nothing. Yeah, it's, it's not super productive for running a business. So the things that I am very deliberate about are making sure that I give myself space to just breathe. Uh, so I wake up and have tea on the back porch almost every morning because that time for me is really important. I could wake up and get straight on my computer and start answering emails. Um, then I work all the way through until the end of the day and feel like, feel terrible. And uh, that's not the, the life that I would like to subscribe to. It's kind of funny because I own a manufacturing and retail business, uh, that is 100% dependent on capitalism. But capitalism and I are not super good friends. Mhm, mhm. Uh, I would like to opt out of capitalism, but it really unfortunately is not an option.

Speaker B: And how did you get your first customer and part B to that question, what do your leads look like? You work, I'm assuming you work with um, Gardner Big. You're not selling like one to one to consumers and individuals. You're looking for those bigger contracts. Do your leads come in, uh, inbound or are you looking for folks? Do you have a hit list and you try to reach out to them or how does that work for you now at this stage?

Speaker A: So we are actually uh, working one to one with customers primarily at this stage. Oh great. We're at this interesting, uh, sort of growing pains spot in the business of once we can build relationships with growers, with nurseries, with wholesalers and order in bigger quantities. That's when the business makes financial sense. Right now we're ordering such small quantities. We started with a Kickstarter campaign. We filled those orders and ordered enough that we can sell online and in person, um, as we build those relationships. And that's, that's the next step that we're focusing on. So I know that not everybody's going to grow things from seed, um, because of the time, because a lot of reasons, uh, like I said earlier, it's super easy to just go to the garden center and be like, oh my God, those flowers are so pretty. All I have to do is plant them and you don't have to worry about keeping them alive. Um, but for the first couple years, so right now we've been working on going to garden shows. We uh, went to a show in Phoenix last year, and then I just got back last month from the Northwest Home and Garden show in Seattle, uh, which was a great experience. 60,000 people coming to that show over five days. And that's where we're starting to really get our name out into the world, uh, that we exist. And that's the challenge is we're at this point where we've created this product. People don't know we have it. We're also not quite yet at the, um, scale we need to be at to make it more financially viable from a consumer standpoint. Because, and this will be lead into a lot more questions, I'm sure. Um, because it is an expensive product compared to what people are used to buying. And part of that is because we're ordering small quantities. Part of that is because you're actually buying a higher quality product once versus disposable things over and over and over again that we're not actually paying the true cost for. And so our target market right now is those backyard gardeners that are buying five pots online because they're going to grow some, you know, some perennials to plant in their yard. Uh, but we need to grow into those relationships with the growers and the garden centers. And that's where the culture shift really can start to happen.

Speaker B: So when you talk to the bigger folks or, um, you can get in front of them, what's their response? I mean, it seems like your problem is right now you're at a scale where people don't know you exist. But when you do get to connect with those, your target buyer are they, what's their response? Are they blown away that this exists or what is their response?

Speaker A: So the most common response we get from pretty much everybody, whether it's a gardener, a, uh, nursery, a grower, whatever, is, oh my God, this is genius. Why doesn't everyone do this?

Speaker B: How fantastic.

Speaker A: The second most common response is, oh, they're really expensive.

Speaker B: Uh, right, okay.

Speaker A: Which I get, and it makes sense, but we have been so conditioned for so long that we're not actually, I mean, single use plastic pots cost maybe pennies. Um, because plastic is, you know, the plastic industry is just putting them out there. They're not responsible for disposable disposal costs. They're not responsible for any of the environmental impacts. Uh, and it is so cheap for them to make that consumers aren't accustomed to actually thinking about what that impact is and what goes into it. And so when I talk with growers and nurseries, the biggest question for them is logistics. How do we handle getting them back, washing them, you know, what do we do if people don't bring them back? Um, but the funny thing is, they're already taking back, like you can go to any Lowe's or Home Depot and return your black plastic that you planted all your stuff in the garden. They're just going to throw it away, or they might send it somewhere to get melted down into some other form of plastic. Um, but they're already taking things back. And so this is where that concept of shifting the entire culture comes in. Because we have become a convenience based disposable culture. Uh, we expect that we can get anything we want in a container, and then once we've consumed whatever it is, we get rid of the container and don't have to think about it again. Um, the milk bottle is the best example I like to use. You know, when our grandparents were growing up, they got their milk delivered once a week or however often they needed it in a milk bottle. They drank the milk, they put the bottle back out, milkman came and picked it up and refilled it. Uh, there are a lot of people that understand this concept and the system that we have built isn't there to transition to it yet. And that's where I think this long term vision of mine is, is completely shifting the industry. I mean, they're doing studies on the impacts of single use plastic in the landscaping industry. They came out with a white paper in 2021 that had all of these problems and actually quantified how much single use plastic is going into the landfills, what is the impact of it on the soil, uh, on the plants, et cetera. And what are the alternatives? And interestingly enough, there was not a single reusable alternative in that research. Uh, which is just weird to me because it seems so basic and straightforward, like it's so obvious. Why wouldn't you just plant your plants, then take the pots back and then the garden center reuses them?

Speaker B: Right. All right, so I'm guessing your models are much easier to clean. Um, so that's less of a real barrier. Is it more like. Well, this is what just we've always done and it's hard to get to procurement centers and buying centers.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the, the logistics challenge is going to be the biggest hurdle for us to overcome. Um, because if a garden center is ordering plants from the grower, they put in their order, the grower has already grown all the plants, they ship them, garden center puts them on the, on their shelves, sells Them doesn't have to think about them. Again, if there is a circular model where the consumer then brings the pots back, then the garden center has to say, okay, do we clean these here? Do we ship them back to the grower to clean them? The nice thing about silicone is I literally put mine in the dishwasher. Like I sanitize them with a couple tablespoons of white vinegar and they're ready to go. Like, it is so low intensity to clean them, which is the opposite of what you see with the, with the plastic because you're worried about breaking them. And um, and so what I want to do is try and find a few growers across the country that are willing to try out, uh, a pilot where they would grow all of their vegetable and plant starts in reusable pots. Consumers would buy them, they would pay a deposit for the pot because then they're like, well, you know, I'm putting up all this money up front as the grower to buy these pots that are reusable. What if people don't bring them back? Simply you pay a deposit. If they keep the pot, you've already gotten your money back. If they bring the pot back, you give them their deposit back. Like, it's not a complicated system, but we're so used to convenience that it feels complicated.

Speaker B: This reminds me a lot of. We interviewed early on the CEO and co founder of Deliverzero and she is delivering, um, uh, they have reusable containers and silverware, etc, everything that they furnish to restaurants, um, for delivery. And then she's, she said something similar like getting the restaurants, like, who's going to clean this? How do we get the it back? You know, how is this going to work? And that was the biggest thing to overcome. Um, that was a. They've done exactly what you said. They've found a couple folks to do trials and do pilots. Um, what they've done is in the, like when you order on your phone or online, you can add in, um, reusable stuff, uh, containers, etc. And I think it's like $1 something that was akin to a deposit, something like that. Um, and then they've worked out the delivery and the pickup, etc. She said something similar, but it sounds like a very similar, um, issue of breaking how customers are doing things and how you fit in an already pretty tight, um, line of, you know, it goes from the grower to the garden center to, you know, this tight line of manufacturing, um, not even manufacturing, passing things off. If there's another Just one more step in the process. How do you overcome that? But if people are already. It's been a really long time since I gardened. I didn't even know now that you can return your plastic pots like Home Depot or sprouts or whatever. I didn't even know that. So if people are already doing that, it seems like this is not even that outside of consumer behavior. It's just the middle. The garden centers that have to figure out some. Even if it's like, great, we're doing a very quick spray down and that's super simple. It's like it's one more step in the process.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, the consumers are definitely already saving their pots because they feel bad about throwing them away because they understand plastic pollution. And so that is that mindset shift of how do we step back and consciously go through this process of planting our gardens or supplying, you know, product that is really important, um, but has all of these unintended consequences.

Speaker B: Would you suggest that consumers. So gardeners, individual gardeners, request this as an option at their garden centers or their nurseries or wherever. Is that helpful? That must be helpful.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the more people hear that consumers are willing to pay slightly more for something like that, I mean, it's the same with any kind of sustainable product. Like, not everybody is going to go buy a reusable Stasher Ziploc bag, um, because they're $10 or whatever they are. You can buy a bag of two or a box of 250 for two bucks. Uh, but it's shifting that and showing that there is consumer demand for it. So that as we transition to a more sustainable way of living in this world, um, that it's less of an uphill battle. I mean, I think that's going to be the biggest challenge is like, we have this, we have everything available so cheap, and why wouldn't we throw it away? Because I can just go buy another one. A friend of mine was making a joke about, uh, uh, a certain fast fashion clothing brand that I'm not going to say it, that I'm not going to mention. But, uh, he made a joke and said, well, the reason that the pants are only $5 is because they're disposable. And it was so true. Because they're not made with high quality, they're designed to be thrown away. So we expect that we can get things so cheap, um, because we're not getting quality products.

Speaker B: Yeah, this consumerism is out of control, uh, from both sides. All right, well, let's get to our rapid fire. Um, all right. Biggest success to date?

Speaker A: I would definitely say biggest success is that we are still here and doing this. Um, all the manufacturing challenges, all the global supply chain shortages, everything, uh, was very overwhelming. And, um, we were able to just take it slowly and not beat ourselves up for not being further along than we wanted to be.

Speaker B: I've never, I mean, I say this, I've never heard an entrepreneur who was like, my launch went off perfectly exactly how I planned it with zero delays, and my product was like, excellent the first time around. I've never heard that. And I've talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, so, yeah, I like that success. What about the flip side of that then? Your biggest failure to date?

Speaker A: Um, I'm not sure if I would really call it a failure, but I just, I feel like it's been very frustrating to be. So, so unknown still in the market, um, because of lack of capacity to have somebody that's doing social media marketing and, you know, getting us out there. We're very limited in bandwidth and just, you know, like, I may be able to go to a couple garden shows a year and that might have to be enough for now until I can build those relationships with the larger, uh, customers. And so it's just, it's learning how to, Learning acceptance of, of where we are in the path.

Speaker B: Yeah, I guess that's going to be a, A lifelong thing for the life of, of an entrepreneur is being okay with where you are presently and making peace with that. It's a, that's a tough one. What about the biggest lesson that you've learned to date?

Speaker A: I think the biggest lesson is, is learning to trust myself. Um, I never thought of myself as an entrepreneur. I never had a desire to be an entrepreneur. I just kind of like fell into this role. And, um, it's very easy to get down on myself for not knowing how to do things or not having certain skills, um, but being able to say, hey, I don't know anything about building a website. I'm going to hire somebody to help me with that. Or, um, it's okay that you didn't get XYZ accomplished because you were, you know, or doing all of these other things. And so I think being gentle with myself and learning to trust myself, that, um, what. Wherever we end up, I, uh, think the, the biggest thing for me is we're shifting the conversation. I think the, the thing that I most want people to keep in mind is that things like recycling aren't going to get us where we need to be m. We need to be talking about how we create a regenerative society, circular society, so that we're not unnecessarily, uh, making things that are designed to be thrown away. That's not how nature works. Nature uses literally everything that exists in it. Uh, you know, if something breaks down in the forest, it becomes food and nourishment for the soil, for the animals, et cetera. And we look at things as resources, as products, as consumptive industry. And so I think being able to shift that mindset to how do we actually exist in this world in a way that is in harmony with and also not negatively impacting the natural world, but our, our own selves as well. Um, one of the things that's really important to us with our business is operating it as a sustainable business as much as possible. So for instance, all of our packaging for any orders that we get online, uh, is 100 plastic free. Um, FSC certified recycled cardboard. Uh, even our shipping labels are uh, all made out of paper and are recyclable. Even the, like, the backing to it. Um, our retail packaging, uh, we also designed, uh, to be sustainable. So it's made out of cardboard, uh, with vegetable based inks, um, all of those little things that a lot of times people don't think about, yes, we're making a sustainable product, but if we're creating a bunch of trash in the process, it's kind of defeating the purpose. Um, and one other thing we're working on right now is going through the process to get certified as a B corp, uh, which is a really great opportunity for us to have a third party verification saying, yeah, we've actually looked at the way this business is operating and um, verified that they're doing what they say they're doing. Because so many companies these days, uh, it's really easy to make your packaging green or make environmental claims about something that aren't accurate. And so I'm very cognizant of greenwashing in this world and want to make sure that anything we're putting out into the world, we're being as responsible as possible.

Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah, that will be very cool that B Corp certification. Can you. For all the professional and amateur gardeners amongst us, and I guess there's probably a lot more since COVID I know my husband started gardening during COVID Um, can you plug. Where can we find you your website, your socials in real life even, uh, where can we find you?

Speaker A: Absolutely. Our, uh, website is backporchpots.com. we are on Facebook and Instagram at Backporch Pots. Uh, I am pretending to be on TikTok learning how to use that, which is entertaining. Um, this year we're going to be at a few more garden shows. Uh, we're going to be in Spokane over Mother's Day weekend. Spokane, Washington. Uh, we will definitely be back in Seattle, uh, in spring February of 2025 and probably in Denver, uh, in May or April of 2025.

Speaker B: Yay. I'm so glad that you're going to Colorado.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Nice. All right, Heather, thank you so much for talking to us about Back Porch Pots. Um, I'm going to do a little bit more customer research on your behalf and call my family who are avid gardeners, uh, and see what they think about this idea. Thank you very much for joining us on the podcast.

Speaker A: Thank you. It's been an honor.

Speaker B: Everyone else, we will see you on B1.