Influencer Marketing: How to Make Paid Creator Partnerships Actually Work

Speaker A: In 2026, influencer marketing is no longer about Let me send somebody a free product and pray that they post about it. Nowadays, creators know what they're worth. Consumers know that they're being sold to by those creators. And brands that treat influencer marketing like these one off transactions are usually left wondering why. The campaign looked good on paper and it hit all the nice vanity metrics, but it didn't actually move the needle

Speaker B: and their business in terms of sales and revenue. And this episode of Humans of Growth,

Speaker A: I sit down with Tommy Johnson, the senior director of partnerships over at Open Influence, to talk about what modern creator marketing actually takes. Nowadays we get into the shift from gifting to paid partnerships. Why investing in creators with bigger followings does not always mean better results. How brands should be thinking about brand awareness with influencers and creators versus bottom of funnel results and why over scripted influencer content usually fails pretty hard. So if you've been thinking about influencer marketing, whether you're just diving in or you're already in the deep end, this episode is for you.

Speaker B: Let's dive in. So that being said, Tommy, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Hi, thanks for having me.

Speaker B: So Tommy, I introduced a little of the professional side of you, but tell me in a sentence or a story, who are you as a human? What is bringing you joy right now?

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, uh, what's bringing me joy right now? My partner and I are planning a cross country move. He's going to be getting back into coaching competitive cheerleading. That's how we met. That's a huge part of our DNA. Uh, and so that's been keeping me very busy and a little bit stressed at the same time. Uh, outside of that, with work, I think something that really resonates with me is obviously, uh, being a part of the LGBT community, being as inclusive and uh, as inclusive as I can be when we're casting, uh, for campaigns here at Open Influence.

Speaker B: I love it. So you've been in influencer marketing for a hot minute and you've seen a lot of things evolve over the past couple years from hey, just posted this product. To full creator led growth campaigns. What has changed the most over the past couple years and how brands think about creators and leverage and work with them.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think you nailed it on the head. I would say the biggest thing that's changed is we're no longer able to give people product and say, please post about this. Uh, it doesn't work as well as it used to. We now have to give them a very real and oftentimes very High amount of money, uh, to make sure that they're posting in the way that, uh, is going to be beneficial for the brand and for them. Uh, I've been in the influencer space since 2012. As I mentioned, my partner and I both grew up in the competitive cheerleading industry. A lot of our friends became influencers. My partner himself had a lot of followers back in the day. Uh, so it was always something that I was really intrigued by. And I was using influencer marketing in my first couple roles at work. Um, but it really was that, uh, like you said, we were just giving away free products, inviting people to events, and hoping that they would post, uh, in return. And a lot of times they did. Uh, once I found out that there was a whole entire industry for it, uh, in New York is where I was actually kind of had my sights set. Uh, I moved after a few years in the industry and I've been on the agency side, uh, doing a much deeper dive into influencer marketing since about 10 years ago.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: And I think, like, what we've seen is because it used to be that, like, okay, we want an influencer, let's send them free product and they'll post to, hey, influencers now know what they're worth. And then we've seen kind of the transition from like traditional modeling into. And that still exists to some degree, but into now we're using UGC creators and now we're using influencers to create the content we need for. Or pick your social media channel.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I think, you know, years ago, people were so hesitant to put any money from their marketing budget into this channel. And now it is a channel that most brands can't go without, uh, which is a great problem to have for people like me. That's how I make a living. That's what I do with my life. But you're right, there are so many different channels within the influencer marketing realm now. So, uh, you're right again that people still do gifting, they still do PR packaging, they still send people to events for free, um, and hope that they'll post in return. The problem is there's just not always a guarantee there. You can set up a contract with an influencer and tell them, hey, I'm giving you this really expensive product or this gift you must post in return. But like you said, uh, a lot of them know their worth. They can't pay their bills with free product, and they need a combination of the two. Or if it's a brand, they're really excited about sometimes they'll still do it, but that's not what we focus on here at Open Influence. Um, but it is still a big, uh, part of, of the plan. And sometimes we will send out PR packages just as an additional. Like, hey, this is really exciting. Let's work with this brand. Uh, you get this. In addition to money, which, uh, is always great as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, we've learned that, like, uh, exposure doesn't pay the bills for influencers. Um, and then I think there's also been, like I mentioned, like, we realize the worth of our face in the photography and us being in the content of the brands. And as brands have started to pour more and more money into, like, Facebook ads, they're realizing they need the creative. And Facebook advertising exist more than just a post and ghost sort of channel. And there's other. There's micro channels almost within Facebook, within Instagram, within TikTok.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you're right again. It's almost like, why am I here today? You already know everything. Uh, that I would say. Um, but, yeah, no, that's. It's, it's very true. And I think I kind of. I like what you said, where it's not like just a post and ghost thing. I think even if the KPI is just awareness, or even if the KPI is wanting to drive more of that lower funnel action, more often than not, we are recommending some sort of an ambassador approach. Even if it's a light ambassador approach, that they're not just posting once with the brand and then walking away and never working with them again. Because the reality is that as influencers have become more and more knowledgeable in the space, so have the consumers. So having somebody post about your brand that has a few hundred thousand followers or even a traditional celebrity, uh, post about your brand, it doesn't necessarily do what it used to do. If there's a really strong brand fit, and it seems like something that is a natural, organic fit, it can still be a really great, uh, strategy. But a lot of times we're really having to convince people now that, uh, these influencers really do like this product. They really do use it or they would consider using it. And we're having them post multiple times to gain that trust and insight from the brand and pass that on to the consumers to really kind of build their trust and hopefully at the end of the day, learn more about the brand, buy, uh, something from them, use their product or their service, whatever the end goal may be.

Speaker B: Yeah, so let's dive into that a little bit. Deeper, what separates a creator campaign that looks good, has some brand awareness, KPIs around it versus the creator campaigns that actually drive more bottom of funnel and business results.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's a great question. I think, um, it's one of the hardest questions to answer for me because there's a million different ways that you can spend the same exact budget in this space. I think it really comes down to again, what is the goal of the campaign? I have plenty of clients that come to me and just say they want awareness. And so we don't worry about hiring those lower tier higher engagement influencers and we do worry about more of the higher mid tier, macro mega, sometimes even celebrity influencers to post on their behalf because awareness is their number one KPI. So we're not really worried about that lower funnel metric when we are worried about it. I would say generally speaking, influencers that have a smaller following generally have a more niche, a more bespoke and a more engaged audience. And so when we find those right ones, we're working with multiples of them and we're having them post multiple times to again build that trust with their audience and get people to take an action as opposed to more of the vanity metrics like likes, comments, shares and saves like that. Um, in addition to that, as you know the space has gotten really intense with measurement with. So uh, depending on what the end goal is, we can measure with affiliate, we can measure with brand lift, we can measure with smart commerce links, uh, to measure carting. There's so many different things that we can do. Uh, it really just depends on what the end goal is for that client and uh, how we would approach that specific campaign based on those goals.

Speaker B: So generally what it sounds like you're saying is that the bigger the creator is, the more followers they have, the more that the KPIs are going to be brand awareness compared to your like micro and more niched down, uh, content creators are going to be more of the bottom of funnel sort of stuff.

Speaker C: Generally speaking, yes it is, right?

Speaker B: Oh, nothing science here.

Speaker C: Yeah, I know I probably have a couple of influencers that might see this and be like I have a million followers and I get a million video views every single time I post something. And those people do exist. There are a lot of people that have a really high following, but they also have a really high engagement rate. But generally speaking, yes Ali, most of the time the higher the following, the less engaged people are. If you're thinking about your favorite Kardashian as opposed to your favorite uh, I'm in New York right now. So your favorite, uh, New York influencer, who are you more likely to engage with somebody that is really, uh, far away from where you are? Um, probably financially, socially, all the things, or the person that lives down the street from you that has 20, 30,000 followers, they're telling you about something that's really cool, that's happening in your neighborhood, in your city, or something that you really just care about. You follow them for fashion, for finance, tips for whatever that may be. Those people tend to have a higher engagement, uh, rate and a more engaged audience. Generally speaking. I just have to keep caveating that

Speaker B: everything is, broadly speaking, every, every brand. It's like, every. It's like, okay, broadly speaking, what actually applies to you? It's all different 100% of the time.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So with that, what, and the differentiations of campaign KPIs across the different funnel segments, what metrics are you paying attention to and how do you figure out this campaign is performing well versus this campaign is not performing well?

Speaker C: Yeah. So for us, again, it comes down to, like, what the KPRs are for that client. So if their awareness is, or, sorry, if their KPI is awareness, and we're telling them, okay, we can guarantee you 10 million impressions for this campaign. And then when we go to actually post the content, no one's seeing it, no one's liking it, it's just not performing the way we want it to. And then from a paid perspective, we almost always want to put paid amplification behind the post to make sure that, you know, you're making this really good investment. We want to make sure that we're giving this content as much legs as possible, um, with the exact right target audience too. Right. When we put it in a paid setting, we can make sure it goes to the people that you want to see it, not just anyone that happens across it on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube, whatever that may be. If we're seeing bad performance in the paid amplification realm, we can obviously make optimizations there. Optimizations is the word I'm looking for. Uh, we can make optimizations there as well. But it's pretty rare that an awareness campaign flops, uh, or that we can't make it perform with paid, uh, when we're talking about engagement, sales, driving people to a website, when we're asking people to take a few more seconds out of their day to actually take an action, that's where we have to be a little bit more strategic and make sure that, um, we're hiring the right creators, we're giving them a strong cta, we're making it exciting. People aren't just going to go to your website just because you told them to anymore. They're going to need you to offer them something. So it really, what a campaign success looks like is very different. I could have one campaign that has 10 million impressions, but the engagement rate was lower because we're focused on, uh, awareness. And if another client comes to me and says, Well, I got 10 million impressions, but no one engaged with the content, they might be unhappy. Whereas client A is thrilled with that many impressions. So, um, at the end of the day, when we send a proposal out, we tell you what we're expecting. And before we even kick off this program, you know what to expect from us from a results and metrics standpoint. And so for us, if it's not hitting that, whatever that baseline is, that's when we know we're in trouble. And, um, it's time to start optimizing and deploying some new tactics.

Speaker B: So with that, how do you go about creating, creating the baseline and how do you create, like, hey, we think this is going to happen. So like, how do you, like, sort of like, how do you benchmark what the expectation is?

Speaker C: It's, it's difficult. And I will say, like, thank goodness for our account management team, our data people, our tech people. They are the ones that compile all the data from the last 13, 14 years that open influence has been in business to know what's trending, what's the right benchmark for Instagram versus TikTok, for story versus, uh, in feed versus short firm on YouTube, long form on YouTube. Is it YouTube shorts? Is it integrated as a dedicated. We've got different metrics for every single one of those pieces of content and we also have them broken out by vertical as well. So I can't go into a fashion campaign looking for the same, you know, real benchmarks that I would going into a finance campaign on Instagram.

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Speaker C: break down the science in that way to make sure that we have a good idea of, based on the last campaigns that we've run in this vertical recently, that's what we can expect to happen. And then of course, with the paid amplification side of it, that's where a majority of the metrics are going to come from. Regardless of how viral any of your influencer content goes, the paid amplification is always going to be a huge driver of, uh, those awareness, those impressions, those engagements, those website traffic, um, those, uh, excuse me, clicks and visits to the website. Um, what we're seeing on that end is that it's a lot easier to guess what's going to happen because the platforms tell us, um, what those ranges are going to be. And then throughout the campaign we can optimize, uh, if we need to widen the audience or if we're seeing a really low cpm, but it's not like the best audience. We can start talking to our client about maybe honing in the audience a little bit more and getting the exact right people, um, looking at the content.

Speaker B: I like it. And I think it's important to realize that these benchmarks are going to vary widely based upon the type of campaign you're running. Top of funnel, bottom of funnel, the influencer creator themselves, as well as industry. And I think industry plays into it more than we give people credit for.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I would say, like the way that people engage with finance content is very different than the way that they're engaging with, uh, celebrity gossip or fashion advice or beauty advice. There's just a whole different type of person that's looking at it. Um, and then like you said before, if, if awareness is the KPI, it is usually in direct competition with engagement. So generally speaking, the more people see the content, the lower the engagement rate is going to look and vice versa. So it's a, uh, it's a constant strategy to figure out what is the best way forward based on what our clients are trying to achieve.

Speaker D: So with that, we have seen over

Speaker B: the years kind of an ebb and flow of how much control brands try to have over the content that the influencer, the content creator pushes out in Your opinion?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: How much creative control should brands be giving to creators and influencers?

Speaker C: Oh, I love this topic so much. Um, again, I think it's a little bit of a gray area and I think it's something that you kind of have to feel on as you go. And there's a lot of historical data and knowledge there. But I will say, um, I'm not going to name names, but I will say that most of the time, the more involved and the more picky and the more scripted it feels. And there's so many, you know, bullet points that we have to check off to make sure that the content is right, the less it performs. It's almost like people, like I told you before, consumers are getting smarter and smarter. They know that these influencers are getting paid to do this because the FTC requires that we tell people that the influencers are getting paid to do this via the sponsored, um, hashtags or the partnership tool, whatever that may be. So our goal is like, how can we make it look like, yes, it's sponsored content. Just like you buy ads on a billboard or like you buy them in Times Square, or you buy them on a mobile ad, but how can we make it seem like it is organic, uh, to them? Um, I lost my train of thought.

Speaker B: No, you're great. No, and that's. I think it's the more and that you see this, like, even outside of influencer marketing, the more script, scripted and like perfectly curated something looks. We used to like, that used to be the gold standard of everything needs to be perfectly curated five, six years ago. But we've seen the pendulum kind of swing back in the other direction of we're tired of the over curated, perfect aesthetic. Pick your thing. It's like, we're tight. We're tired of that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, thanks for.

Speaker C: Oh, go ahead.

Speaker B: No, and well, you see this in like with just like people posting content of um, you. The viral video frameworks where it's like super. The super produced, like Instagram reels don't actually perform as well anymore compared to I recorded this in my car, added subtitles and then just pushed it out.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So thanks for helping me get back on track. It is definitely Monday. Um, but in reverse to what I was saying earlier, when we give the influencers a little bit more creative freedom, of course we still want to have them touch on important brand attributes, important talking points. Like, you don't want to just let them go rogue every single time. Right. Like, we still need to make sure that we're talking about the right things. But the more we let them live and breathe in their content and make it true and unique to them, the better it performs. Uh, generally speaking. And I think we could probably pull some data to prove that that happens. Like, hey, this client was really, really, really picky and we basically had to give the influencers a script. It was. So, yes, um, those generally just, like, flop almost every single time. Um, you know, there's, there's a few industries where we kind of just have to roll with the punches. Auto, um, health care, sometimes it does have to be very not scripted, but we do have to follow a lot of guidelines and make sure that we're cutting through a lot of red tape to make sure that everyone's protected and saying the right things and no, um, one's getting in trouble. But yes, generally speaking, I love, love, love giving creators as much freedom as possible. Because at the end of the day, this is why they became a creator and influencer in the first place. People like what they have to say. They like their style, they like how they create their content. So if we try to change it too much, uh, people sniff it out and they don't like it, they don't engage with it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's where you see the more the brand release it. Like, how do you put this? The. It's not that the brand is doing a service for the creator. This is the creator's platform that, uh, they're letting the brand borrow. So the brand should be at the service of the content creator, not the other. If it's ugc, it's the other way around. But when it's influencer marketing, hey, I'm letting you borrow my platform. You're coming into my house. You're going to follow my rules

Speaker C: to an extent. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you some

Speaker B: astro with a lot of asterisks attached to that.

Speaker C: Because I think there are, there is room for pushback from the brand side too. To say, like, this is how our brand lives and breathes. This is who we are. If you don't like that, then maybe you're not the best fit. Or, uh, if the creator, like, really loves this brand and really wants to work with them and they're just dying to be a partner, they might give away more, uh, they might have more leeway than they would. If it's a brand that they don't love as much, but that they're saying yes to because it's a, it's another gig that they need. Um, so I do think there's a bit of give and take. I say this a lot, and I'm gonna say it again, is that I feel like there's so much gray space in the influencer industry.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: That's what I both love and simultaneously hate about it. Because I feel like anytime anybody asks me a question, there's almost never a black and white answer. There's no one right way to do it. And it's just been really fun over the last 14 years to just kind of figure out what's working and try new things. And, uh, the best clients are the ones that let us test and. Awesome. Oh my gosh. Test and optimize like that to really see what works in the long run. Right.

Speaker B: And I think like UGC and influencer marketing is one of the newer forms of marketing. Like, yes, we've had other channels that have come out. We have TikTok that come out. We had Instagram that came out in like 2008. Ish. But influencer marketing is not necessarily a new channel the way that, like, because it's this, it's more of a different way of marketing. It's completely different because, you know, like, okay, from Facebook to Instagram to TikTok, I need to change the format, I need to tweak my calls to action. But I know, here's the, here's the hook, here's the story, here's the value, here's the call to action across platforms with channel based marketing. But when you're switching into influencer marketing, it's almost a different strategy compared to a different tactic.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're exactly right. We've had people that have been influencers for since, I don't know, maybe not the dawn of time, but shortly after you've got people that become leaders in their community or that become celebrities. And I think those traditional celebrities were kind of the ones that really paves the way for where we are now, because that was the first taste of what influencer marketing really is. You're looking at somebody that is very well known for their craft or somebody that is a great athlete or somebody that made a really cool movie, whatever that may be. They're a great singer, they're a great artist, and people follow them and they care what they have to say. And I think that's still something that carries a lot of weight, but now it's trickled down into everyday people that have something to say and have a really cool talent or just a good eye for the way that I see new York City is very different from the way a lot of the creators see New York City. I can go down the same exact street as them and see a whole different point of view. And it's just really cool to see people that are not necessarily those traditional celebrities making a name for themselves. And like you said earlier, those niche pockets where people really care about what they're seeing in the day and what they care about and what is um, on their radar right now.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's almost to some degree that power and influence on a cultural level has been like, we're breaking the mold of like it's normally just your A list and sometimes your B list celebrities that held influence to now it's being not decommoditized. What is the word that I'm looking for? I, I'm losing the word. But like it's, it's been decentralized across uh, so like you think of your 1990s, early 2000s celebrities and it was. Those were the only people we were paying attention to to now. Yeah, we still care about those people in the 2020 context, but we also. All that influence has now been dispersed across dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands of content creators that we each individually follow.

Speaker C: Millions even. Yeah, there's, there's millions of them out there. It's crazy.

Speaker B: There's millions of them. I only follow like a dozen or two.

Speaker C: Uh, but I can't follow them all. But there's a million. It's been so cool to see it. It's insane.

Speaker B: So, last question before we go into rapid fire. How should brands be thinking about long term creator relationships versus the one off campaign?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I get this question a lot too. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a one off campaign. I do think it's really, uh, first of all, it's different, different strokes for different folks. I think it depends on the product and the service. I think there's also a really good use case for tentpole moments. If there's a movie premiere, if you're dropping a new product, uh, if you've only got a certain budget and you're testing out influencer marketing, you can't be doing always on brand ambassador campaigns, but you can still test and learn with a few handful of creators. So I do think that there's not anything wrong with either or. But the brands that do have the big budgets and that can afford to do both really should be looking at building a roster of influencers that perform really well for them, that really care about their brand. And that can post on their behalf multiple times throughout the quarter, throughout the year, however they're looking at it. And then in addition to that, filtering in new ones as they go, testing and optimizing with new influencers, uh, bringing new ones in for product drops or for tentpole moments. Like I said. Uh, but I think, really, I said it before and I'll say it again, consumers are just so smart. They know when someone's being paid for something. And I think if you can engage somebody that really cares about your brand or your product or your service or whatever that is, and they're willing to talk about it multiple times and have that live and breathe in their feet, people are going, okay, I know they're getting paid for this, but. But they wouldn't talk about it this much unless they actually cared about it. Now, I kind of believe you. So I think there's a use case for both, like I said. But I, uh, do think when you've got the budgets of the big multimillion billion dollar brands out there, you've got to start thinking about people that really align with your brand and having them post multiple times to gain that trust to get people to follow along and really start taking an action and funnel in more people as you go.

Speaker B: Yep. It's like, don't, don't try to fix what's not broken. Like, once you have creators that are performing, keep using them over and over again. It's like, okay, you went viral on Facebook. Don't just not use Facebook ever again. Like, keep doing what you see is working compared to, let's just hop around and try to get into many, as many audiences as possible. Like, no. Yeah, sure, add in more people, but keep what's working, like, dialed in.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: So we're going to pivot a little bit and go into rapid fire. So this is just the first thing that comes to mind when I ask the question.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, 100 unfiltered. I promise it's not, it's not that terrifying. Um, so first question. Most overrated marketing channel right now.

Speaker C: Oh, I can't say that. The most overrated marketing channel. I can't even. Nothing comes to mind. I think they, I really, truly think that they all serve a purpose in their own right.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Is that a horrible answer to your question?

Speaker B: Uh, not a horrible answer. No, that's fine. Most, uh, underrated marketing channel right now.

Speaker C: Oh, gosh, of course. I'm gonna say, like, influencer marketing. Any form of influencer marketing. TikTok, YouTube, Instagram.

Speaker B: Okay. Which, which Channel do you like the best right now?

Speaker C: I enjoy TikTok.

Speaker B: If you had $20,000 to grow a business today, how would you spend it?

Speaker C: Influencer marketing. Duh.

Speaker B: Uh, if you had to start a non marketing business tomorrow, what would it be?

Speaker C: Non marketing business. Something in the travel industry. It would be like bringing people across the world to do fun things.

Speaker B: Okay, what is the best marketing campaign you've ever seen?

Speaker C: Oh my gosh, the best one I've ever seen.

Speaker B: There's so many one that you can think. The most recent one that you can think of.

Speaker C: Can it be one of my, um, own.

Speaker B: That can be. That is 100 allowed.

Speaker C: We did some really cool work with Mercedes a couple years ago and I still think about it all the time. Um, we just, we hired a lot of just people that you would not normally think would work with Mercedes, uh, to promote their Dream Days event. We had an artist drop a new song, uh, in her content. It was just really cool. I loved it.

Speaker B: Awesome. Um, well, Tommy, thank you so much for joining us today. If people would like to connect with you further, what's the best way for them to find you?

Speaker C: Uh, LinkedIn probably.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: But there's like a million Tommy Johnson's in the world, so I think you can find me if you do. TLJ3RD, I think is my. Uh, we will link it in Johnson iii. That's my.

Speaker B: We'll link it in the show. We'll link it in the show. Notes. We got, we got you covered.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker B: Uh, for everyone tuning in today, thank you so much for joining and we'll catch you on the next episode of Humans of Growth.

Speaker C: Thanks, Ally.