Modernizing HR Without Losing Trust with John Kennedy

SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com. SPEAKER_02: Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.

Hello, listeners. This is your host today, Bill Bannham. And in this episode, I'm joined by John Kennedy, an experienced HR and business leader with an impressive track record leading transformation across complex and highly operational environments. John works in HR organizational development at Irish Rail, where he has helped lead major people transformation initiatives, including the implementation of Oracle Cloud HCM, the replacement of legacy systems dating back decades, and growth of the HROD function to support large-scale organizational change.

A chartered fellow of the CIPD and vice chair of the CIPD Ireland National Committee, John is passionate about leadership, coaching, organizational culture, and delivering meaningful impact through people strategy. Listeners in the Disrupt community may also recognize John as one of the standout speakers from Disrupt Dublin, where he delivered the very first Disrupt Lightning talk in Ireland since before the pandemic. And in this conversation, John and I will discuss transformation in legacy organizations, leading change in unionized environments, building trust with stakeholders, the evolving role of HR, and what great people leaders look like in 2026.

I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with John. John Kennedy, it's my absolute pleasure to welcome you to the HR chat show today. How are you doing? SPEAKER_03: I'm very good, Bill.

How are you doing yourself? SPEAKER_02: I'm alright. I'm alright. So um what should I add to the intro that I just offered a second ago, listeners?

Uh I don't know if I said, but um John is probably the nicest man in HR in Ireland. Um I've had personal experience now of working with him on the last couple of uh disrupt events in Dublin, and um he is fantastic. The audience loves him, everybody knows John and respects him, and he's he's had an amazing career. So um uh just wanted to give John a bit of a shout-out before you go on any further because sometimes I get folks on this show, and we've done hundreds of episodes now, of course, who um I've got immense respect and love for, and John is one of those people.

There you go, John. That's me bigging you up. Let's get into let's get into the questions. I'll pressure it.

The hard the hard-hitting stuff. Um actually let's begin by talking a little bit more about um Disrupt. You presented the very first Disrupt Lightning talk in Ireland since before the pandemic. Um uh it's a pretty unique and tight format, 20 slides, five minutes, 15 seconds per slide.

Tell us a bit about your talk back in Feb, if you don't mind, and some of the challenges that that sort of format presents. And and also, just as we record this episode, you kindly came back on stage and um um entertained the audience for a couple of minutes uh last week, um, back at Dublin, back at Personio. So if you've got anything to add about um your experiences at that event too, that would be lovely. SPEAKER_03: Well, I suppose when I when I got asked, and you you gave me free range in relation to choosing what I wanted to talk about, and sort of lately I've been curious, and every day there's something different in relation to the future of work, the challenges of work, etc.

etc., as we as AI permeates nearly everything that we do. So I kind of said, well, why not pick that? And it's only when I started to get down into it and get down into the real bowels of it, we sort of go, My God, it's it's just so much, and how do I sort of condense that into five minutes?

Challenge number one. And then challenge number two is how do I keep to 15 seconds per slide and wanting to get so much across. So first attempt was as it always is with with presentations, top heavy on top heavy on verbiage, top heavy on words. And so I said, I need to go with just pictures.

So I tried to make it a bit quirky in in that sense. From a point of view, I had a picture of Black Sabbath because I had mentioned about uh uh Andrew Groves of Intel saying everyone is going to be paranoid into the future. Maybe he's right, I don't know, maybe we are talking about the status quo, low status quo as a band as well, and things like that. So uh I really enjoyed it, I'd have to say it was it was a real challenge, and uh that's probably why I came back for more.

SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazette.com.

And now back to the show. SPEAKER_02: Okay, and uh I don't know if we can announce this, John, on this episode. If not, I'll cut it out. Um, but just before we hit record today, John kindly offered to uh to present another uh five-minute talk.

He's gonna be a victim again for us um at our at our Cork relaunch event, which we're aiming for uh middle of November. Um the exact date, TBD listeners. Um, but yeah, that's exciting. Um am I allowed to keep that in, John?

SPEAKER_03: No, I think I think Yarrell out uh say it's say appeal to be honest. It's nice. I I love I love Cork. It's nice to go down to Cork all the time.

They're a good bunch, and uh I'm sure there'll be a good bit of banter with an old dope coming down talking to them. SPEAKER_02: Now, you've worked across both HR and operational leadership roles, John, during during your career. How has that operational experience influenced the way that you approach people leadership and organizational development? SPEAKER_03: The dynamic for both is is different because from a HR perspective, you're providing support to frontline operational leaders and in different aspects.

And whilst the dynamic for both is different, uh there's one dynamic that remains constant and what's people. So we're dealing with people. And sometimes operationally we don't get the time that we need or we find ourselves. So that that is one thing that I brought with me to HR, uh to my HR career, is that we don't necessarily have the time to be long-winded in support.

We need support to be at a point in time, almost just in time, if I use a lean phrase from that perspective, Bill. And I think it needs to be, we need to understand, HR needs to understand what operational people do. And I think if HR people don't really understand that, um there can be a disconnect. SPEAKER_02: Since around 2019, 2020, you you've helped lead a major HR transformation journey at Irish Rail.

What what were some of the biggest challenges and lessons for modernizing legacy HR systems and processes for you? SPEAKER_03: What legacy systems and processes build up is a culture around the process itself. And the process almost becomes a subculture, for want of a better phrase. And so the challenge really when you're changing, particularly long, long-lasting legacy systems, is everything that's built up around it.

And it's almost like you have to break it down in order to rebuild it, and that really is the challenge because people become accustomed to build, people become used to a way of working, and you're sort of saying, we shouldn't really automate that way of working without trying to see can we improve it. And it's sometimes it's the improvement because people, you know, are are precious about certain things, and I understand that, and I get that, and I was precious about them myself.

So there is that there is that whole hand holding, there is that sort of communications, there's that openness and transparency that one has to bring in order to say to people, listen, there could be a better way of doing this, and why don't we explore it? And explore it in a safe environment where people are allowed to say, Listen, I don't think we should change that system, and if we do, what's going to be the outcome? And to be able to sit there around the table or stand around the table, which everyone does, and sort of thrash it all out.

So for me, it was you know, it was really sort of getting people to understand why we were changing, and each each discipline, each business that runs in, whether that's pharma, tech, engineering, traditional organizations, hybrid organizations, there is a culture and there's a process and there's a way of doing things that is built up around it. And anytime one decides to change it or one looks to change it, uh we do have to bring people with us. SPEAKER_02: Knowing you a little bit now, I would characterize you as being a very humble, understated guy, but you're clearly very successful.

You've had a very successful career as a as a leader. Where does that come from? Can can you point to maybe a manager or leader that you've had in your career, in your earlier career, that maybe inspired you? Or conversely, maybe someone who taught you how not to behave as a leader.

SPEAKER_03: Listen, I suppose when when when you get to to my stage in my career, there there is a couple of people that you would look back and you would say, I really enjoyed my time with that individual, and I really enjoyed the freedom he gave me. But I I go back to one particular uh instance, Bill, and I it was my first kind of managerial role, and it's a long time ago now. And um I didn't like the way I was being what I felt, I felt was being micromanaged. I wasn't allowed to uh do the job the way I wanted to do it.

So I looked to see the manager and I explained that to him, and I said, Listen, I said, um I probably explained it the wrong way because I went in saying that I wanted to hand back the job, I wanted to go back to my old job, and that kind of took him a bit by surprise, and he sort of asked the question, why? And I said, You're not giving me the time to to grow. I said, What I want you to do is pick me up when I fall, and to to to help me. Um and I said, Because I'm going to fall, because it's my first big job, and I'm going to I'm going to make errors and I'm going to do things 60% right, 70% right, not necessarily 100% right.

And um once we had that conversation, the relationship just took off. I he he gave me the space I needed to grow. Um and it's that that kind of stayed in me. And I always do, I always try and live, live by that mantra whereby, you know, nobody's perfect, and people needs people need leaders to be there for them.

Um and and not necessarily to to be doing things for them. And I think that's a very it's a very for people who are really content and process driven, it can be a very um difficult lesson to learn. But to me, that that was the one defining moment which um which allowed me to grow. And I I still I still talk about that.

SPEAKER_02: Okay, very good. Thank you very much. So um just as a follow-up to that, you you you've led change initiatives in complex and unionized environments. How do you build trust and bring stakeholders along during during periods of big transformation?

SPEAKER_03: It's it's the same way, Bill, uh as as in as in life, if if if if you were to meet somebody on a social occasion and they're they're not, they're they're a bit closed, that they're a bit unsure, things like that. Sometimes you kind of say you'll end the conversation and you'll move on to somebody else. Um I've always felt that the way to build trust is to be open and transparent. It's as simple as that.

If there's for commercial reasons, if there's things I cannot say, um I'll explain why I cannot say it. Um I've always been I've always been an advocate for saying I might say no, but if I say no, I've reasons for it, and I will very clearly articulate the reasons why I'm not in agreement with a certain course of action or why you know we can't do certain things. The trade unions and the trade union movement have at their heart uh the the right to represent people and to give people a voice, and that's all really anybody ever wants.

They just they just want to feel as if they're being listened to. And and yes, sometimes business has to make hard calls and hard decisions, and that's again that's based on whatever rationale one's dealing with at the time. But I think if you're open and honest with people, you can you can bring people with you, and ultimately that's what it's all about. It's about us all moving forward together.

SPEAKER_02: So you've spoken previously about the importance of delivering on the HR promise. What does that phrase mean to you in practice, John, and how can HR teams strengthen credibility across their organizations? SPEAKER_03: First and foremost, I've said it previously. I'm I'm a firm believer in HR understanding the business that that that it operates in.

So whether that's you know, engineering, whether that's railway engineering, whether that's big pharma, it's got to understand what everybody does. And it it's when it when it can do that, it it can offer more support. I've on it I've always honestly felt that. Um I took over an engineering team, and the the first thing I tried to, or sorry, apologies, a HR team in engineering.

And the first thing I tried to do was to make sure that they get out and they they they meet the people on the ground. And I I think that's very, very important. I think I don't think we can operate kind of just in an office. I I think any manager or any leader can't just operate in an office.

I'm a firm believer in the Japanese style of being on the shop floor, that sort of gamba management type attitude where you're always there, uh you're always available. Sometimes you can't be, I accept that, but you can always have a chat and you can always be with people. And I think doing HR practices for HR sake, Bill, I won't say it's waste, but it's akin to waste. We don't do things just for the sake of it.

We do things to add value to the organization. And when we add value to the organization, everybody succeeds. It's as simple as that. SPEAKER_02: You're very well known through CIPD.

And you played a key role in helping Irish Rail become a certified CIPD partner. Why was that recognition important? And what impact has it had internally? SPEAKER_03: It's had a huge impact internally for us.

Uh to become only the second organisation in Ireland to be granted uh people development for now with the CIPD was a tremendous achievement for us. Um but I'm a firm believer in uh that's almost like uh the start of the match. Do you know what I mean? It's at least you're on the pitch now, that's the way I would call it in that sense.

So we've kicked the ball off, now we've got to play the game. And it's always about constantly challenging ourselves to be better. Just because we got it, um, it doesn't mean you can rest on your laurels and stick the feet under the table and uh you know proceed from there. We have to keep on delivering on it, we have to keep on improving on it, because at the end of the day, we're here to support our colleagues, and we're using the COPD and the people profession and our framework standards in order for us to be better in HR.

And if we're better in HR, well then the organization is better. And so whilst it's important for us, it's not it's not the be-all and end all. What's important is the community that helps us, it's the community of the COPD, it's the people that I meet, it's events like disrupt and COPD events that that help us all in HR get together. And sometimes it's over a cup of coffee, you know, or a glass of wine or something like that.

That uh you can share stories, you can meet with people, and you can follow up with them, and I think that's very important. SPEAKER_02: Um, and shameless plug for the podcast listeners. Uh, if you enjoyed this conversation with John today, check out my fairly recent conversation with Alison Hodgson, who is the country market director at CIPD in Ireland. Alison is awesome.

She also spoke at our event last week in Dublin. John, we're almost out of time already. Before we wrap up, what what's coming up for you? And how can our listeners connect with you?

Is that LinkedIn, email? I bet you're super cool and on TikTok and Instagram and places. Tell tell us about it. SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, not on TikTok.

Not on TikTok and more a follower of sport on Instagram than anything else, Bill, in relation to that. No, I tried to keep active on LinkedIn looking at different things. I I saw a great post this morning about uh made a comment on it. It was about a cello uh virtuoso who was who was coaching a young up-and-coming uh player how to play a certain piece of music.

The passion in in him was unbelievable. It's a name's name escapes me. But it just brought me back to playing sport and at the end of the training session when you really felt you gave it your all and you were sitting there in perspiration and everything like that. Just the passion in the man talking to the student about using the full length of the ball as as as he pulled a certain note across, and he said one thing that struck me, he says that that chord is I think he used the word dark, I could be wrong.

So play it dark, and and things like that. So I I I I'm passionate about all forms of learning. It doesn't necessarily have to be about sort of you know people or things like that. You know, I I I've got I've got curious or as I've got older, which I think is healthy for for for everybody.

SPEAKER_02: Very good. Well, that just leaves me to say for this particular episode. I feel like I'll probably be badgering you in the near future to come back on. Um, but for this particular episode, John Kennedy, thank you very much for being my guest today.

SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much, Bill. It's much appreciated. SPEAKER_02: And listeners, as always, until next time, happy working. SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.

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