Health Insights - Using Data to Deliver Broking Results

Speaker A: Hi everybody. Welcome to the latest episode in the HRBytes podcast series. Today we're going to be looking at employee benefits, some of the challenges we're seeing in the market, and how at Aon, we're helping our clients to overcome these. My name is David Guy. Over the last 16 years at Aon, I've held a number of roles across consulting and broking. And my current role is the strategic broking lead for health, which combines elements of speaking to clients and understanding their people risks and then taking that information to the market to help with broking exercises. I'm joined today by my colleague Dan. If I can just come to you.

Speaker B: Yeah, ah, sure. Hi Dave, Uh, nice to catch up with you, uh, again, always enjoy our chats and a very warm hello to our, uh, listeners. So my role, uh, within the organization. I don't have quite as many years with Aon, uh, as you do, Dave. I've only been here for uh, six years. But my role is a client leader in our human capital solutions business. Uh, and that role very much focused on perhaps, uh, as the title might suggest, very much focused on client need, client discussions. I think my observation would be that role has become increasingly broader, I think perhaps, uh, driven by what we're discussing with our clients and the client need and the client asks. But really it's focused on helping our clients navigate a changing workforce. Um, and within that, pulling on elements of design, benchmarking, insight data really just to help our clients manage their ah, people strategies.

Speaker A: Thanks Dan. Um, to kick off, if I can lead on from that point you mentioned. So we're here to talk about how we're supporting clients and you mentioned helping them with their uh, people strategies. What are you seeing or uh, what are you hearing from clients around the challenges they are facing and how they are managing to achieve that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I suppose if I try to summarize it maybe into a couple of words, um, I probably lean on competing demands. Um, that's probably not the most catchy, but I think it really recognizes and perhaps represents what uh, our clients uh, are working through through HR reward, benefit professionals. And really within that, I think our experience, our insight shows what our clients are facing are managing what are often competing forces and trying to balance a number of factors, a number of priorities. Within that, um, some of the big ones that I see from our clients is trying to manage that balance between costs with the ability to provide a, uh, compelling employee experience. And I, you know, if I, if I think, you know, perhaps what are some of the biggest impacts, uh, or some of the biggest issues that, you know, our clients are working through. You know, at the moment, I'm probably going to center in on a couple of, you know, key themes. You know, attraction and retention is going to be in there. Um, within that top three, you know, I think, you know, the insight that we have, you know, from our, from our global risk, uh, management survey that we ran, you know, attraction and retention, you know, it rose to its fourth highest global risk for the first time in 2024. You know, I think that really speaks to, you know, this, this wider point that perhaps we're going to get into, you know, in a moment. Number two, you know, escalating costs and, you know, within that, you know, trying to find a new way to improve affordability whilst maximizing the impact. You know, I think we released some insight last week. You know, at a global level, you global average medical Trend rate for 2025 is expected to be 10%, just below the average that we saw in 2024. 10.1%. That's the highest increase forecasted in the last 10 years. Some really significant pressures, uh, that our clients are experiencing. That's before we even discuss inflationary impacts as well. And the other one probably speaks to some of the other issues that our clients are working through at the moment. Increasing sort of regulatory pressures. You know, many discussions, you know, focused on, you know, pay, transparency and, you know, what is that going to actually mean? But I think within all of those themes, it really points to, you know, coming back to those competing demands, you know, the change, you know, our teams are having to work with, you know, bigger, bigger issues, uh, issues that are overlapping. And within all of that, I think, you know, there's a move towards, you know, harnessing, uh, and trying to get hold of the right data and analytics to help our clients make better workforce decisions.

Speaker A: Thanks, Dan. If I, if I flip that on the other side and just to give a little bit of insight, if I can, on what challenges we're facing from the market. So it's interesting some of the points you called out around traction retention, particularly escalating costs. I think insurers probably wouldn't like us saying this. If any insurers are listening to this, they might start cringing. But one of the big challenges we're seeing in the market, and I think this is linked to that cost piece, is a lack of growth outside of private medical. The employee benefits market hasn't really grown much in the last five to 10 years. Perhaps the odd exception for things like critical illness. But if I was to look at the life and income protection market. Very stagnant. And until the last few years, and we might touch on this a bit later on, until the last few years, the medical market's not really grown. It's an interesting point you called out there, uh, the competing demands of clients. I think that that degree of complexity, the market at times struggle with that. Some very traditional benefit products. And if I think about when I started in the industry, what feels like 100 years ago, it was only 16. It was very, very transactional. Group life assurance was just group life assurance. Income protection wasn't hugely common in private medical. Everyone had bupa. Doesn't matter who you. Who you had it with. You had your BUPA through Aviva and your BUPA through axa. The market is trying to keep up with that shifting demand and that shifting importance and that shifting value on employee benefits. We did a recent employee sentiment survey, but the results are due out in the next few months. And one of the interesting takeaways from that survey was that 56% of employees value competitive pay and benefits as one of the number one or the number one reason to move to an employer. And it's interesting, the fact that benefits is in there, because I think if you went back 10, 15, 20 years ago, it wouldn't have been. I think another challenge that's facing the market that links back to some of your points there, Dan, um, is the nhs. There are very real. We all know, all of us in the UK at least, are all seeing and experiencing the challenges with the NHS. The, uh, 7.6 million people on a waiting list, roughly 10% of the population, the impact that's having on the value of benefits, people are valuing them a lot more. Private medical has moved up the pecking order and the benefit that everybody wants. People want access to care, people want access to treatment, and people certainly include myself in this, don't want to be waiting weeks and weeks and months and months to see a doctor. That does have a big impact. And, Dan, you mentioned the startling figure of 10% global medical trend rate increases. And yet big. It's huge, the average increase we're seeing in the uk, and this is largely fueled by the NHS crisis, if we can call it that. But we're seeing average increases in excess of 30%, so 32% in the last quarter. So the point you mentioned, the challenge around balancing costs and escalating costs and balancing that against a compelling benefit package to attract and retain talent, the market's struggling with that. Uh, from a Cost perspective because of uh, where claims are going and utilization rates are going and the impact that's having on price. It's not all bad news. Try and try and redeem this a little bit. It's not all end of the world news. There are a few bright spots. So interest rates probably not great for the wider economy, but certainly helping benefits like income protection and death and service pensions. Insurers effectively don't need to reserve as much so they can reduce their premiums. In fact we've seen group income protection rates. The average increase we're seeing is only 5%. If you think a few years ago that was trending in the high teens, early 20s. And um, the other thing I just wanted to finish on, on that point was again going back to Dan, the market, trying to keep up with the evolving demands and needs of clients and that value piece. And being more than just an insurance product, we've seen a lot of innovation in the market in terms of proposition and value. It's not just those products aren't just insurances, they aren't just benefits now they are much more value driven. A whole plethora of health and well being tight benefits and services which are really adding value. Things like digital gps which certainly AON have got access or could have access to a few through things like engagement apps. We're seeing more providers enter the market with a focus on well being through engagement. And certainly we're seeing the market trying to pivot and position themselves as so much more than an insurance product and a partner to help with ongoing shifting demands and needs of employers and employees. Dan, if I can just come back to you a second. I had a very long ramble there about the market. You can tell I've worked on the broking side for a couple of years now. Going back to, going back to costs. It's something certainly when I speak to clients I pick up on a lot escalating costs. Not just a medical but things like the national insurance increases that are coming through. But if I focus on that cost piece for a second and the challenge you mentioned that you mentioned then how are we and how are you helping clients to navigate that challenge?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I think, you know, my observation would be here Dave. You know, you've touched upon, you know, some of those, those data touch points, you know, perhaps in your, you know, the previous, previous response. I think you know what I'm seeing at a client, uh, perhaps I don't know if it's a need or perhaps you know, an aspiration of our clients to become more strategic. You know, you referenced there some of the cost pressures that our clients are, you know, beginning to see and have seen, you know, in recent times. And I think, you know, our clients have traditionally approached, you know, some of those cost pressures in a fairly, you know, fairly limited way. You know, probably that that's the way the market has, you know, has been. And I think what we've seen over the last couple of years is perhaps the appetite and the understanding from our clients has matured. And I think within that, clients are probably getting to a point maybe with these cost pressures where they're having to think about things a little bit differently. And I think the difference here is the use of data. Um, I was with a client yesterday, and we were discussing just the wider topic and the role of data. What was Aon doing in this space? And we could share lots around some of the insight, the investments Aon has made globally into this area. But I think the other interesting point here is we've probably spoken about data for a number of years, but I think we're now at a point where client appetite and interest is now aligned perhaps with what we're trying to and have been sharing with our clients. So for me, to answer your question, I think it's the use of data, and I think, you know, we're at a point where now we're working with our clients and, you know, spending some more time with them, understanding, you know, where they are in terms of, you know, perhaps their benefit strategy, where they are maybe in terms of, you know, their financing or, you know, what that budgeting process could look like over the upcoming period, and also going maybe a little bit, you know, deeper at actually, you know, identifying, you know, the role of, you know, perhaps benefits and reward. You know, what does that play within your organization? Organization, you know, where do you want to be, uh, you know, as an organization, you know, where are you competing, you know, for talent from, you know, which peers, which sector? Are there certain benefits that you, you know, you want to align behind, you know, as halo benefits and equally, you know, what are the timescales, you know, within that? So it's a, I think, a much deeper conversation and a much deeper, uh, conversation that involves elements and different layers, uh, of data. And, um, I think the other bit that I'd probably maybe add to the question, Dave, is linking in other data sets. I know some of this conversation, some of the topic and discussion so far, we're highlighting some of the trends that we're seeing perhaps at a broader level those cost pressures within medical as an example. And I think our clients are now becoming more increasingly sophisticated where they want to pull in other data sources and other data sets. So you know, perhaps beyond the benefit space, maybe get into you know, what is the data telling them from a, from a talent perspective, you know, if we overlay, you know, the data sets from maybe a skills or a performance aspect with some of the claims data from medical or income protection, you know, if we start layering that, you know, what is, what is it actually telling us? And equally you know, if we think about the other data sets that we have available to us from across into you know, risk capital. So some of the insurances, you know, uh, our clients, you know, have to purchase and I, I'm probably looking here at you know, say employers liability. You know, I think that's another great data set where we can align with some of the traditional data sets that we have within health and benefits and also align, you know, our clients uh, as well behind that, you know, employers liability might be traditionally uh, purchased from, from maybe an insurance manager or somebody that might sit within health and safety. And I think ah, aligning those client conversations between insurance manager, health and safety, risk, reward, benefits, we're really seeing data pulling together not only the insight, but also pulling together some of our client teams as well. I find that super interesting and you know, maybe if I think about that, you know, I've talked very much there, you know, about the data, I suppose Dave, in a, in a client facing setting, you know, what data do you think, you know, we're pulling in? Maybe from a, from a market perspective, you know, what, what is it that perhaps your teams are working on? And maybe within that, you know, a further question if I can add it is, you know, what is the impact that's having?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's, the richness of data is huge. And again if I go back 10, 15 years, it's unrecognizable what we're doing with that data. So how we're using it differently, we're moving away from the traditional approach of a few months before renewal, go to the market, hit the insurers over a head, over the head with a stick and two years later find a bigger stick and two years after that find a heavier stick. The data, the richness of data and some of the data points you touched on outside of the traditional claims and absence, using some of that richness of commercial risk data, uh, employee sentiment data, benefit, uh, utilization data, uh it's making a real tangible difference in the market. It's helping us understand or it's helping the markets understand the complexity of clients, what they're doing differently. And it's taking that data and those insights that we would traditionally sit down and have a client conversation with and have uh, a true consulting conversation with that perhaps in the past we've kept secret from the market, not intentionally, but we've not always shared it. And it's starting to use that data to understand a true picture of people risk. So not just looking at the bad stuff, not just looking at the people who were sick, people who were absent, people who were claiming, but looking at that alongside what else is the client doing? What else have they got in place that's helping to manage people risk and also what haven't they got in place? What could they benefit from that uh, an insurer might be able to provide, going back to that value led broking, um, piece or clients looking for more value. So that data and that insight to help clients make better decisions is also helping the insurers and the benefit markets to make better decisions. Coming to your second question, what impact is it having? Well there's a couple of very tangible, very immediate impact that we've seen in the last 18 months. Quite simply providing that data, that additional data, uh, the data you wouldn't normally see when you, when you come to the costing exercise to creating more competition, insurers are getting a better understanding of the client and it becomes less of a desktop underwriting exercise where they might have one claim too many. So it's a decline actually insurers are looking at beyond just the immediate data in front of them and uh, looking at the true picture of risk of the client. So we've seen a number of cases where providing some of those data led insights has resulted in insurers who wouldn't have quoting and in one or two cases being successful in picking up the business. It's helping insurers mobilise their resources so they know if they need to go and speak to reinsurers, they can go and speak to reinsurers early if they need to go and get sign off from their senior risk committees. Because on paper it might not look good, but with that extra insight, so much more richness of data, uh, that the senior underwriters are thinking actually this is a good risk, this is a good scheme to partner with and not just that transactional piece but that partnership piece. So those data sets are filling in a lot of the gaps they're Removing, uh, a lot of the assumptions underwriters make around people risk and ultimately better, the better pricing. We're seeing insurers being more competitive because the data tells a richer story and they can afford to remove those exceptions, uh, remove the assumptions and ultimately quote, more competitively. Dan, I'm bound to say that because I speak to the markets. If I was to put a client lens, or more specifically, if you were to put a client lens on that, what have you seen from that, uh, data driven approach to the market? What are you seeing and what's different in the conversations and the results you're speaking to clients about?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, uh, it's super interesting. I think this is probably a really good example of where sort of the world's aligned kind of thing. Dave. Um, I think there's a few examples where at a client level we're doing stuff with data. Uh, you know, if I just maybe pick a couple of examples and then perhaps I'll share, uh, an exact sort of direct example and perhaps try and bring this to life a little bit more. You know, a couple of general examples, you know, that use of data and you know, what are we seeing that's possibly different and maybe some of the opportunities to do more with data? Uh, you know, one of the things that we're seeing is, you know, perhaps this move towards, you know, particularly for our global clients, you know, those that uh, you know, operate, you know, across the globe, various entities, you know, that, that opportunity they have with the data to create, you know, some kind of best practice kind of governance framework. You know, if you're trying to choose another theme that, you know, some of our clients are asking, you know, asking us increasingly more about is taking a consistent and a strongly governed process to managing their benefits, you know, across, you know, wherever they're actually, you know, their people are based. Uh, the other sort of theme is perhaps using the data to go a little bit deeper into some of that claims narrative to drive and try and think about which cohorts or which demographics are some of those pressures coming from. And I think that speaks to trying to do better and do something differently for their people. But also coming back to probably where we began the call, thinking about some of the cost pressures a lot of our clients are actually facing. And then the third point is around still trying to move this sort of perennial dial from prevention, uh, is better than perhaps cure, rather than waiting for something to materialize as a claim stat. Can we use this data to maybe get ahead of potentially what's going on at an organizational level, I think that possibly speaks to perhaps a direct example that we've worked with one of our clients, uh, over the last period. You know, this was a, you know, a major, uh, organization. Um, I don't think it really matters about, you know, the sector. Um, but they employed in the UK around about 26,000 employees. And, you know, it's a large organization and, you know, perhaps by extension, you know, their premium spend was, you know, fairly significant. And I think, you know, the unfortunate thing for this, you know, this organization, this client was, you know, that premium spend was escalating. And, you know, with those increased premiums, you know, perhaps a lot of our, uh, listeners will, you know, you know, align with this. But, you know, along with that comes increased scrutiny internally. You know, what's happening, you know, what are you doing to manage that, what's actually causing some of those increases? You know, a lot of, you know, challenging questions, you know, for our client, you know, to work through. And maybe coming back to your previous, you know, previous point around, you know, how can we perhaps help. Help the markets, you know, our carrier, you know, partners as well as our clients? You know, I think this is a really, you know, perhaps, you know, good example of where, you know, we've been able to use some of our proprietary data and analytics to help both really. Um, we ran a data analysis, uh, for this client. We use one of our proprietary tools, and we used it ahead of that, uh, remarketing, uh, broking exercise. You know, actually, you know, coming out, I, uh, think the key thing for the client was, you know, when we first presented, you know, their risk profile to the market, nobody, um, wanted to quote, uh, you know, it was a combination of this worsening claims experience and also a really, you know, specific, you know, benefit provision that they had in place, you know, for legacy reasons. And, you know, we had to spend more time with the, with the carrier market here through, you know, through our analytics, just to explain, you know, what was actually going on within an organization. I think that approach is perhaps very different than just presenting perhaps a market spec or a quote request to an underwriter. Actually investing the time, really early stage with the carrier market just to better understand those health risks and some of the specific populations that were being impacted. The actual insight, when we, when we dived a little bit deeper, uh, you know, perhaps coming back to one of those points I was just alluding to before getting into this, uh, I suppose, case study, you know, we could be really specific with what was going on at an organizational level. You know, some of those, those cost pressures were, you know, uh, specific, you know, symptom or condition, uh, related. You know, very much the focus here for this organization was around oncology. You know, again, by our analytics, we could be really precise around, you know, the actual UK loc geographically and also the demographic. And I think, you know, that helped, helped uh, those underwriters get a little bit more comfortable, you know, rather than, you know, perhaps presenting a load of, you know, oncology claims that might be, you know, in play or potentially you know, coming. Coming down the track. And I think the, the extra bit, I think here that the analytics help this client with is, you know, by engaging early, by providing this insight, we are also able to unlock a risk bursary. So, uh, an additional form of funding, uh, from the carrier to actually address and try and target the impact oncology was having within this organization. You know, the actual level secured, you know, was a, uh, really, you know, generous commitment by that provider. Um, and I think that speaks to creating, I suppose that commercial appetite as well as sharing that insight and sharing that data back. Uh, I think the other great outcome from this one, by having gained a better understanding of the risk, uh, profile, all providers actually agree to quote, uh, at renewal, um, there was more comfort, uh, by our ability to demonstrate some of the proactive initiatives this organization was uh, taking to tackle some of these risks. Uh, it also, you know, helped some uh, cost avoidance. Um, the cost avoidance here, you know, was a really nice number for this organization. Around 40%, um, you know, several million, uh, several million pounds, uh, UK sterling, uh, for this organization and the bursary that we've secured. We've actually progressed some of those discussions and we're now looking at, um, designing some kind of targeted engagement campaign which will focus very much on employee cancer screening. We, uh, have some initial results, uh, from that, uh, already which again I think are super positive. So I think that's probably a really good example of where we've been able to link some of this data at a client level. It's benefited that organization. Hopefully it's going to benefit their employees and also it's benefited our carrier partners as well. Um, so I think that's a really good example.

Speaker A: Dan, uh, just picking up on one of the things you mentioned there, uh, around a bursary conscious m. Not everybody might be familiar with bursaries. They aren't hugely common in the employee benefits market or the employee benefits world. Could you just give a quick 30 seconds to a minute on what a bursary Is.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a really good example of perhaps where Aon works super closely on what are the two areas a client need. It's risk capital. So you know, some of our commercial, you know, risk insurance colleagues and it's human capital and you know, a risk bursary is an adopted, you know, risk mitigation, I suppose, uh, step in that commercial uh, insurance world and what it is is essentially it's a form of funding um, that's given by the insurer, by the carrier, uh, to target and invest in a pre identified risk. You know. So for the example I was speaking about previous, for that client, it was oncology, uh, and the insurer was willing to invest in a series of interventions to try and improve that risk profile. It might be for other clients, it could be any other symptom, it could be emotional health, it could be some other physical well being kind of initiative that that client is presenting to through their claims data. I just think it's a really nice example of where we're using that data to unlock some additional value. You know, many clients you know, will struggle, you know, I think uh, you know, to, to find some extra funding. You know, there's not, you know, not very often there's a magic money tree in our, in our clients gardens willing to invest in these kind of interventions. So I think that's a really good example of using the data to benefit, you know, a number of uh, number of stakeholders here.

Speaker A: And it's cyclical as well I suppose Dan, whereas it's an investment from the carrier to help better understand and improve the risk which ultimately helps make premium sustainable. So going back to those top three priorities you mentioned at the beginning, that escalating costs, struggling to find resourcing you mentioned then the magic money tree nobody has, it's covering both of those I suppose, isn't it? It's feeding into both of those camps.

Speaker B: Correct. I think we're trying to here work with the insurers, the carriers, ultimate. You know, everyone has a, you know, uh, an interest to make sure that you know, premiums and some of these costs ah, are sustainable. You know, it's, it's in everyone's interest. So I think you know, bursary is one example of you know, perhaps where we're, we're trying to look at this maybe a little bit differently.

Speaker A: Okay Dan, just, just before we finish I'd like you to get your, your crystal ball out if you already got it out. Um, we've, we both talked a lot about data uh and I think be no surprise to people listening given the amount of data available, giving the tools and resources to help mine manage and draw insight from that data. Looking ahead to the future, what do you see the role or what do you see the future for data and analytics in the conversations you're having with clients?

Speaker B: Yeah, I just think it's only going to increase if probably the sound bite of today's, uh, session is data. I don't know how many times we said the actual word, but I think that's just increasingly going to feature in our client conversations as we move forward. And I think, uh, our capability as an organization to increase that is going to deepen is going to strengthen. I think we already see some examples that are coming through already where, where we're investing a little bit further. Um, and that may be, you know, some of the data. You know, we've worked hard as an organization to collate and collect all these data, uh, proof points, you know, for an organization into, into essentially, you know, what have we got? At the moment we have a human capital, um, human capital data lake. You know, all these data points that are coming in, whether that's comp data, claims data, employee sentiment or survey data, you know, absence data, you know, any other kind of, you know, data point. You know, we've worked really hard as an organization to build that, you know, data lake. So, you know, I think moving forward, you know, the. I think we're only going to get increasingly more sophisticated. Uh, and that's. That sophistication, I think is going to come from a couple of factors. You know, perhaps, you know, us as individuals and, you know, clients that are engaged in this, in this conversation, but also, you know, the increasing role of technology here. Uh, you know, I think it's super exciting if we look ahead and think about, you know, the role of perhaps, you know, where, you know, perhaps predictive analytics and, you know, probably now getting into the space of say, you know, using, you know, AI, you know, how can we layer that on top of some of the data that we actually have? You know, sometimes the challenge with all these data, you know, data points that, uh, you know, we have and our clients have is, you know, what is it actually telling us? And we've now got some early models that we developed where we have the ability to ask this human capital data lake, what is it telling us or what is the key risk factor? And I think that's going to be really, really exciting around some of our client conversations. And maybe just in closing the other point that I Perhaps can see Dave is using this AI and using all these models perhaps to sort of predict the future or try and think about what might be coming down the track. Um, some of the insight that I've seen from our US colleagues, perhaps in the early advances or the early initiatives of developing some of this capability for our clients, one stat really struck me. 40% of medical spend is driven by, but just by you know, 1%, uh, of members. And you know, if I sort of think about that or our clients sort of think about that, you know, that really highlights, you know, the, you know, this power of data but also perhaps indicates to where we might be needing to focus attention. So you know, some of the, some of the capability that we now have developed, you know, and I'm, you know, probably focusing here on some of our risk analyzer capability that will, you know, start predicting, um, start predicting, you know, which cohort or which participant is actually going to potentially be most at risk, you know, from some of these, uh, some of these main conditions and then come back to if we know or equipped with, you know, that insight, you know, potentially then how can we actually look at those cohorts a little bit differently both in terms of, you know, helping them and helping them improve their health and well being, but also to identify and you know, manage those, those high cost members early in the process and perhaps budget for that, that predictable risk, uh, accordingly. You know, I, I think that's really exciting and uh, you know, I think that's probably going to be a subject and a topic maybe for another podcast. Um, but yeah, probably that, that's where I see things going, Dave.

Speaker A: Thanks Dan. Uh, you've, you've made me hugely conscious of how many times I mentioned the word dirty now.

Speaker B: Probably me too.

Speaker A: I'm impressed you, we managed to get so far into a conversation without mentioning AI until the very end.

Speaker B: Yes, definitely. Another, you know, another theme, another trend. Uh, I, I'm sure we can come back to that in another uh, in another future session, I'm sure and done

Speaker A: in 5, 10 years time it'll be AI probably doing this rather than you,

Speaker B: not you and I, Dave, just robots.

Speaker A: Dan, I'm conscious we're at time there. Um, thank you for those. Well, uh, first of all, good to chat as ever. Thank you for those insights. If I was to draw a couple of things out, a couple of points that you've touched on throughout, and I'm going to use the word data because I can't think of an alternative word for it, it, but you really emphasize the power of data and the example you gave, going from nobody quoting on a high risk scheme to everybody quoting premium saving or certainly cost mitigation and adversary on top, it really does emphasize the power and impact of data on those really valuable consulting conversations. But also I'm thinking with my my market broking hat on just the impact that has on the market and how we could support clients getting better decisions driving more value from the spend that they currently have. Dan, thank you very much. Look forward to speaking to you again soon. And um, thank you everybody for listening. And, um, that's goodbye from me.

Speaker B: And a goodbye from me. Thanks, Dave. Really enjoyed the catch up. Speak soon.