HR Besties: Leigh's Dream, Corporate Investigations and Pocket Pastries

Speaker A: Hello, besties. It's been a hot minute, huh? Yeah. For those of you playing catch up, we are on monthlies because it is crazy over here. Ashley's book and all of the things happening and schedules and life, all that fun stuff. So if you've missed us, we've missed you, too. Trust. Ashley does have a little news, though, about that book, don't you?

Speaker B: Well, I did. My publisher emailed me this week, and my. My book hit on Kindle. Number one bestseller in the HR and personnel management category. And so I was very excited.

Speaker C: That's a big deal.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is.

Speaker C: Congratulations.

Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah. So thank you. Also thank everyone for reading and sharing. And if you've read it, leave a review.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: So thank you. It helps.

Speaker A: Yes. Oh, go check out Manager method. The Manager Method. All of that. It is on shelves now. How crazy is that, right?

Speaker B: It is. It still is surreal. Although I was on a trip on spring break, and we went and there's a big bookstore down at the beach. And my friend's like, do you want to go in and see if your book's there? And I was like, I don't think it'll be there. And we went around, no, it was not there. I was like, this isn't so much a beach read, it's an office read. But, uh, you know, then I picked up, you know, picked up some random book. I just picked it up and went to this and bought it. Obviously to. To be there, not just turn around awkwardly when you do find it. It's exciting.

Speaker A: You're right.

Speaker B: Do you happen to have this book?

Speaker C: My book's not here. I'm not buying anything.

Speaker B: It looks like you. It's not me.

Speaker A: It was just sold out, Ashley.

Speaker B: There you go.

Speaker A: Come on. You know, it was all over the beach, of course, all the books laying out.

Speaker B: Uh, you know, like, who needs yesteryear when you can have, uh, some management tips, you know, Right when I lay

Speaker A: it out in the sun. That's nice. I got a little treat for.

Speaker B: For.

Speaker A: For you, Ashley, because I had a dream a couple nights ago.

Speaker B: I've missed your dreams, Lee.

Speaker A: Every night they're popping. I do not have to do illegal drugs.

Speaker B: You can choose to, but, you know.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. Yeah, I could choose to. I know. Yeah. I mean, you know, I do legal ones, all of the drugs, but highly recommend. Love science. My dreams are vivid. Okay, so you'll love this. Someone, a very lovable character of ours, now, Thomas J. Henry, uh, made a reappearance.

Speaker B: Oh, bestie.

Speaker C: Not tj.

Speaker A: He Made a reappearance. He made a reappearance. Yes. And for those who of you who aren't in Texas or in the legal field or. I don't know. I mean, this guy seems to be everywhere.

Speaker C: Or an OG listener.

Speaker A: Or an orgy. OG listener. I said orgy listener. Oh, my God.

Speaker C: Or that, too.

Speaker A: An OG listener. You know, whatever. Right? I mean, no judgment. Thomas J. Henry is, uh, an attorney. Like a high powered defense attorney. Is that what you'd call him, Ashley? A defense attorney? What is he?

Speaker B: I think he's on the plaintiff side. I think he's a personal or injury attorney, which is why he's, you know, by far the most successful, um, in his settlements. He doesn't get paid unless we get paid. And he's getting paid, so.

Speaker A: And he's taken most of it, I'm sure. God love him. So we, uh, are like, at this off site. All right. It's a work thing. And he's the boss. He's like the CEO. And, you know, I've pretty much my entire career, I've done, you know, HR client support. Right. I'm. I'm the. I was going to say the bitch for the head guy in charge. And that is true, but it's a little, um. I was going to be a little more PC about it. I was like his HR person. That's what it felt like in the dream. Right. I didn't see an org chart or anything, but we're doing this event and he and I were laughing off to the side and whatnot. Maybe it's a little flirty, maybe it's not. I don't know. I'm just saying it didn't go that way, unfortunately. But all of a sudden, George Costanza walks up. George Costanza walks up. Not Jason Alexander. George Costanza. So not the actor, but actually George. And I love Seinfeld. Okay? George Costanza walks up and they start chatting. And for whatever reason, I reach into my pocket because all of a sudden I had pockets. I was like in a trench coat. All of a sudden, weird. I reach in and I grab out of my pocket and start eating it. I've never done that, but it's not beneath me. I would do that. But I've just said, uh, at that point, I've had. I've done all sorts of things, but I haven't done that one. But in the middle of this thing, I just reach into my pocket and grab a pastry and I start eating it. And George Costanza was like, really? You're eating A pastry out of your pocket. And that's where the dream ended. So that guy that freaking ate an eclair off the top of the trash.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Famous episode of Seinfeld. He's judging me. Need for eating pastry pockets.

Speaker C: Look. Yeah, pocket pastries are delicious. Also, I posted a, uh, George Costanza meme today. About?

Speaker A: No way.

Speaker C: Like, about, you know, the licking of the envelopes.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, yes. Susan. Poor Susan. I literally posted it today. What are you.

Speaker A: That. Oh, damn. That's weird. That's crazy.

Speaker C: Wow, that's so funny. On Millennial Misery. Go look like an hour ago.

Speaker A: That's freaky, because when do we talk about George Costanza? Never. I mean, you know, we've never, like. Oh, my God, are you serious? That's so weird.

Speaker C: I know.

Speaker B: Oh, man, I miss your dreams. I love it. And it just pops in there. Let me ask you this. Would you rather have as a coworker Thomas J. Henry or George Costanza?

Speaker A: George Costanza. He's got to make you look good.

Speaker C: George Costanza. He would, like, make us laugh. Are you kidding? Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Thomas J. Henry is your boss because he would supply, as we know, really nice parties. If you look him up, of course. We're still waiting for our invite. I know George Cassandra. He would be a bit of an HR nightmare, because he's absolutely one of

Speaker C: those, oh, for sure.

Speaker B: Performance issues that's gone on for years. Um, the napping under the desk. But he's a personality hire if there ever was one.

Speaker C: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I still adore. I adore him, but I thought you'd like that. Shout out to Thomas J. Henry and George Costanza. But to judge me, though.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, to judge me when he ate an eclair off the top of a trash can at a child's birthday party.

Speaker B: Projection. Well, it's. It's a reminder. I know it's a bit of conference season for those going to, you know, HR conferences or work conferences, I will recommend a practice. I didn't do this intentionally. I got a special bag a couple years ago, one of the first conferences we'd gone to together. I'd gotten it to have, like, manager method, um, business cards, HR besties, business cards. To have these multiple pockets. But what I didn't realize is it had an extra pocket. Oh, what's. What am I going to do with this? Snacks. Walking around the conference. I'd have, like, almonds, a cookie. I mean, I remember going through it, and I think it was. Lee was like, how long you been holding on to that I'm like, oh, ever since about seven. Uh, seven or 17 rows ago, you know, just having that is a best practice for the conferences. In addition to your large, you know, duffel bags that they'll give you. But, um, yeah, get a good conference. Conference bag.

Speaker A: Yeah, we're pro pastry pockets here.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Triple P. Oh, well, what is happening in the world of HR or work? There's some drama out there. Y' all need to catch me, uh, up.

Speaker B: Jamie alerted us to one, but then we were like, you know what? Don't look into it because we'll talk about it on the podcast. So I had seen it, but I don't know if you have. Lee, Jamie, what about J.P. morgan?

Speaker C: Yeah, so there was some crazy Alexate.

Speaker A: Uh, well, Alex Alexander, Jason Alexander, Brain Alexation.

Speaker C: Like, I literally cannot get it out. It just saved my life.

Speaker B: Girl, say it. You got it. You got it. I know you have it in you.

Speaker C: No, I literally can't say it. I can't. I can't even remember the people's names, to be honest. But essentially, uh, there was a male co worker and a female co worker and, uh, JP Morgan Chase. And, um, this woman was an executive. However, he did not report to her. He, um, Daily Mail reported some pretty wild accusations. I mean, stuff like she was drugging him with Viagra. She would come to his apartment and demand sex, that he became her sex slave. Um, she would call him his little brown boy. I mean, stuff that, like, I read. And I was like, that didn't happen. Like, even myself. I was like, no, that didn't happen. But I still read it. And I saw the memes that came out and I was like, I'm not going to do. I. I purposely was like, I'm not doing a video on this because I didn't feel good about it. Like, it just made me feel icky. And sure enough, not even a day later, the New York Post comes out with an article saying that JPMorgan Chase did a, uh, full internal investigation. And there was completely unfounded, also allegedly. And they did a full investigation and they checked, um, computers, they checked messages, emails, door records, like badge records. They checked everything they could internally. Um, one thing that he had, um, accused her of was that she said that she would take away his bonus, but he didn't directly report to her. They were actually on the same team, but there was no way that she could have affected his bonus in any way whatsoever. So essentially, it. It. It's alleged that he possibly fabricated all this because he wanted a large Settlement close to the millions of dollars, um, when he was let go. So I actually did a TikTok on this when, when I read it. And what was the most disappointing in me is the amount of men that commented not only on my TikTok but on my Instagram. First of all, siding with the man because of course. And they were like, I can't believe you would believe a corporate HR department. Well, of course I would. I've been in HR for 23 years. Yes, I would. Um, but also I believe women. So there's that, um, over a man who was trying to get a millions of dollars. And then someone else sent me another article that he lied about his father dying to get bereavement.

Speaker B: That's.

Speaker A: Yeah, that old song and dance. Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah, that was. I spoke yesterday at a conference and I was talking about this with the JP Morgan of how it's, you know, you have investigations and that's why it's important to figure out who's going to investigate, look into things. But that one of the things that came out of it, again, the back and forth allegations, you do see. But when I saw we, um, he took bereavemently five days paid leave. So I mean, kudos, silver lining. Kudos for having a good, generous bereavement policy. And please don't take it away based on the exception of those who abuse it. But the New York Post said, ironically we did talk to his father, uh, over the weekend, who with a Ouija board.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: We talked to him in heaven.

Speaker B: I struggle with it because, but even you hear things and people like, okay, believe women. But if, if anybody's listening to the Love Trapped podcast, it's like the number one podcast right now, which is about Laura Owens and Clayton Eckert. It makes things, um, there's a reason that you investigate. And again, these exceptions of people making things up, they do happen. Unfortunately, in my personal experience, they are, they are absolutely the minority. And so it's, it's important to go through. I mean, when I actually, when I first saw the allegations, I don't know that I thought that they were wrong. For when he first came out with them, I thought, you know what, boy, some crazy stuff can happen in, uh, investment banks, law firms, consulting firms, I mean, all of that. But then when it flipped and came out. Well, yeah, again, like when organizations do investigations like that, it's kind of hard because sometimes they'll bring in like an external law firm and you're like, are you really trying to find the truth or are you really trying to shut

Speaker C: it down or are you trying to cover it up? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And it's hard because I. What I found in HR is people, like, we're doing, trying to get to the heart of the matter. And that's what does make it so infuriating when you see apparently fabricated allegations, but they pay. I saw that same thing that they had offered him, allegedly, a million dollars to settle, and he was like, no, m. No, I want $11 million. And, you know, I guess they're, um, obviously at an impasse, but it's a mess.

Speaker A: What an idiot.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's wild.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, he should have just taken that and walked then. Because, like, did he, like, create evidence? I mean, what was he. What was he thinking?

Speaker C: Like, there wasn't evidence that he could even create.

Speaker B: Well, did you hear what he did with. With AI?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: He went and I don't know if he used his real dad name, but there's, like, an AI platform that as I guess is part of their website to show examples of how you can use it. There's someone that people, like, it's him in, like, a few months ago, had asked a prompt of like, what do I do if I've. You know, I won't use the words on the podcast, but very triggering words. If things happen, inappropriate things happen. Me at work. And it was very similar to the allegations he came out with, but he used the he pronoun. Like, what if he did this to me? And so people are like, wait, was he trying to build his story with that? But again, as we say, AI is not a diary nor an encyclopedia. And, uh, yeah, people will. People find that stuff.

Speaker C: Heavens.

Speaker A: So, like, if I'm that female executive, is this not criminal?

Speaker C: Well, she could sue for defamation, right? I'm not a lawyer. I don't know.

Speaker A: I mean, what could she do? What could she do? Because as an organization, I know when we've had issues like that, it's like, you have to call the police yourself. You have to deal. You have to. You know what I mean? Like, we, as an organization or, you know, company legal entity, we're not going to press charges. Uh, but you are welcome. M to. And we will allow the police to come in here. You know what I mean? Like, they get so, you know, nitpicky. So what could she do?

Speaker B: Well, so one thing is, if you put things in a legal document, like a complaint, in the US at least that is protected from defamation. So he can allege these things in a court document. And so back and forth in those documents, that's generally protected from defamations because. And also, so defamation is. Is. It has to be untrue. So, like, if I were. If someone were to be like, well, I don't give a personal example. Trying to think of something in the moment, something mean.

Speaker A: I know, like, you're ugly, Lee.

Speaker B: It has to be untrue. And so if it's an objective fact, if we're someone's. Someone's opinion, then then that doesn't tend to rise the level of defamation. And it has to be, again, you have. And it's, you know, there's some different standards. If it's a, like a celebrity, a known figure, or if it's a more, you know, ordinary citizen, which this executive would probably fall under that. And so if he was going around telling people things and, like, putting this out places, then that could potentially be. But in a lawsuit in particular, that's something people don't always realize. Unbelievable as it is. That is generally protected in the U.S. and so, yes, but things have to be untrue. And then there's slander and libel, which are aspects of defamation. One is written, one is spoken. And that's the end of my law

Speaker C: school lesson, because Cash Patel is suing the Atlantic reporter for defamation right now for true statements.

Speaker B: He's suing her because of allegations of being alcoholic. And so it's like, in that situation, it's not a court document. It would be whether she publicized that. And so that would fall out of the defamation exception.

Speaker A: Okay, so if I was JP Morgan, and sometimes I wish I was, like, how would I handle this now when it comes to the executive, right? I mean, am I trying to pay her in some way? Do I want an NDA? I mean, I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, how do we protect ourselves as an organization now? Like, what can she do for.

Speaker B: I mean, that's one of the areas that get tricky because there's. I mean, there's the legal aspect, but one of it is, you know, backing up from the lawyer perspective is if you have an executive and someone has apparently falsely accused someone of very specific things, and now it's all over the news. An NDA isn't really going to do anything or. Or her natural inclination is going to say, wait, why do I need to sign an NDA? All of these allegations were about me. And again, one of the things that can happen in an investigation, if it gets tricky is, let's say in the investigation, they say, like, oh, yeah, much of this was fabricated. But other things of whether she said I'm going to affect his bonus or anything like that. What if that's problematic? And that's where it gets really hard and you have to make judgment calls. But when you have a situation where again someone is really apparently falsely accused or you've come to that conclusion, supporting them in the best ways you can and letting them say their piece and working with them to say whether you want to say something or not, that is, that is your choice. Giving them that power and supporting them. To me, even as a lawyer, you're not going to win this by trying to clamp it down and have NDAs and oh, should we get her out of here? Because that does happen as well. Well, um, you know, could be she doesn't want to work there anymore. This whole situation is so wild to say the least. But it's, it's one of those tricky situations. But so often I do think organizations will over lawyer it and think things like that. Like have them sign an NDA, like why don't we have her sign a separation agreement without thinking of the real human of feelings that can happen. Even if you are a highly paid exact at a very well known company.

Speaker A: Mhm. God, is that not HR nightmare fuel? Like having one of your investigations blow up globally.

Speaker C: Like oh my God, I know, I feel awful for her. And her face was plastered all over the Internet. I mean the countless memes, the disgusting things that men were saying, like I wish she was my boss. There was like I guess a junior analyst position posted in that same department and 24000 men app for that job. It's just like, it's so gross, so disgusting.

Speaker B: Uh, honestly, no, I. Investigations are, investigations are. No, there really can be no fun, especially when you're trying to balance it. But I bet you whoever that was investigating it that found these things that proved it wrong, you've never seen someone circle those wagons quicker than like, well let me show you this.

Speaker A: Oh my gosh. So more to come on that I'm sure.

Speaker B: More to come. Well that it, it reminds me a bit. Um, and we've talked about some of these term lawsuit updates where again, the verdict from last year, that $11.5 million term has officially filed its appeal since we had our last episode. So it's being appealed to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. And so that means documents will go back and forth. Um, the judge's opinion was pretty savage. That being said, you'd kind of expect it because before they filed their appeal to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, when Sherm had to say, like, hey, judge, you were wrong. We should have won, and all these things. Again, it was. Whenever you're suggesting to a judge that they made the wrong decision, it doesn't tend to. They don't tend to agree. So I'll give them a bit of a pass on that. But so now they've appealed. And so a lot of it's on, like, legal technicalities, like, very fascinating things like jury instructions. But another case that. That came about, I mentioned this is, like, service dog lawsuit. And it's in the Rocket docket, uh, Lee's old boyfriend's name. Rocket docket.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Date school in District of Virginia. I mean, that one really is cruising long. And so discovery was supposed to be up on that in June, so pretty soon. And so I had just glanced at the docket as my, you know, periodic hobby and was surprised to see all these, like, filings in there. And I saw that the plaintiff. I've filed what's called a motion to compel. Now, those have ever been involved in litigation may know this, but that's in. In the discovery process. Back and forth. If I'm like, you know, Jamie and Lee are suing me, and we exchange things back and forth. If I'm not giving all the answers that you want, or back and forth, you can. You try to figure it out. But sometimes you go to the judge and you're like, like, hey, mom or dad, we're fighting. Let's. Let's come up with this resolution. And in. One of the things that happens with now is with email search terms. Again, very exciting. But it's like. Like for Sherm, for example, because this candidate who had her job offer rescinded, uh, after she'd requested a service dog, she's saying that this is discrimination. And so trying to figure out, you know, emails and things to go through. Her lawyers have said, well, Sherm's not using enough search terms, like, for. Like, they wouldn't search just for Fiona. They're saying, for example, like, should we do that? Should we not? Because it's a bit more of an unusual name. And Sherm's like, okay. But Torres is more common, like, okay, back and forth. And it's literally these conversations. And I only know about it, and anybody can, because it's, um, on the PACER docket. And so the plaintiff filed this motion, um, spelling out all these things they want Sherm to do. And Sherm responded. And I was looking through, and because I was like, this is a very Long filing for a response. One of the things they have in there is they have a little footnote that's like, okay, right, the plaintiff's asking us for things, but the plaintiff also hasn't provided things we want her to provide, including voice memos. Like she's sent. Given us text messages and things like that, but not these underlying voice memos. See exhibit like, I think it was six. Okay, so I go like, let me see exhibit six. Oh my gosh. I've never seen anything like this in a lawsuit. Truly haven't having done employment law. But it was. They filed like 35, 36 or more pages of screenshots of the plaintiff's personal text messages with different people as she was going through the interview process, as she was waiting on her thing to be, whether rescinded or not. And it is because. And the reason they, that they're entitled to things like that is because the plaintiff is saying like damages, like emotional damages and compensatory damages, like, this really affected me. And so that's some of the reason that they can get her personal text messages. But it's wild. I mean, I kind of laughed. Well, you know, yeah. Yes, it definitely feels invasive, especially for the other people. They don't realize, like, gosh, this could be in court one day. Um, but it's, it goes, it really goes into this aspect of like, what do damages look like. And it's interesting because again, I, I could have seen like Sherm saying like, yeah, we're, we're way down things for plaintiff and having a couple screenshots, but it was so many. But some of them, I was like, these people's name on the text message was not Jamie Jackson, but it's a J. Total Jamie energy. Like, uh, like when they were figuring out whether to send her offer, I guess she's like waiting on them and she's like, you know, like, this is how they're treating me now. I can't even imagine being an employ. She was messaging with someone about the dress policy. She's like, you know, whatever, wearing jeans to the office just one day a week or whatever. And she's like, yeah, like for like ridiculous, uh, like making me commute to Egypt from, you know, whatever, far away. It is kind of funny on those hands. But also some of it, I'm just surprised because I actually, in front of a jury, I'd be very interested to see how this would, this would play out because some of them. Talk show. Her mindset of like, like the Jamie esque messages were like Beep Sherm like, like very like riding along with you. But anyway, it's, it remains to be seen. Seen what will happen. They had the hearing before the judge and judging from the document, the judge told them to go outside and figure it out and then come back and have any remaining questions. And ultimately they're like, sher needs to search a few more search. Search terms I guess is the resolution. They don't, they didn't say which ones but, but it's. Judges do not like discovery disputes and things like that. So um, so if you're in hr, just know your legal fees will go up substantially if you have those kind of fights and fights about discovery things.

Speaker A: It's just so petty, you know, you think they'd have better things to do or spend their money on or uh,

Speaker B: you know what I mean, all of it together. I mean litigation is again like when as you think about things like investigations or you think about how you treat people. And I know HR sometimes has told we need to make a change, get rid of this person. I mean there are such real examples about treating people, whether it's performance or accommodations or anything like that, that the human aspect really matters, really matters a lot. But if you don't do it or you do it in a way that feels really unfair, that process of litigation is just miserable.

Speaker A: I couldn't do it. I can see why you transitioned, Ashley.

Speaker B: Uh, it was not. It was. I mean now I do feel like I have this wholesale perspective on it because now I look at these things and like I can see. But one of the things I see is, is lawyers. And on both sides it's like a, um, like almost uh, demonizing the other. Like I know employer side employment lawyers that they view plaintiffs as like the enemies. I've heard people literally, just literally describe it as, you know, people that are just out to make a buck and just. It is like you are just going you for that the person on the other side is a human whether you agree with them or not. And again, there are going to be times people bring claims that are not true, but you forget that side, but you like demonize them. And on the flip like the lawyers on both sides sometimes it's just so nasty and you go back and forth and I didn't like that. And so I like now to use those lessons in um, my manager training business and book. It's a much better to be on the preventative side for me at least.

Speaker A: I know. Speaking of transferable lessons. That's what I was thinking.

Speaker B: Jamie, how's how's your job? Speaking of.

Speaker C: No, for real. So I was telling these ladies before we hopped on, I am officially the PTO president for the next school year, which is the 2026, 27 school year. However, the current PTO president is on maternity leave, so while I've already assumed the duties. Um, but I was telling the ladies, this is Teacher Appreciation Week, and I have been busting my ass, and I was just saying, like, what a thankless job this is. And it's so similar. The line is so similar to being in hr because I have no budget. Um, I'm trying to take care of all these teachers, like, I was trying to take care of my employees. I. You know, once again, I have zero budget. And you want to do food because it's easy, but I don't want to do food because it's. Because food. Like, not everyone wants food and people have allergies, and, like, you want to be inclusive. And honestly, it's exhausting. Like, it truly is exhausting. And like, uh, the. The line. The line makes sense of why I'm here today. And, um, I. Girl bust a little too close to the sun. And so this is why I'm here now. And I will be happy to give it back, though, when she's ready to come back, because this was. This was a I'm helping her out thing. Um, I will be done.

Speaker A: But then you won for next year, though, right?

Speaker C: Yeah, I'll be it next year. But then I will be giving her her crown back. I will not be doing it again. I will be happy to help and. And in any way I can. And these. These women are. I know some. Some ladies. I got some weird comments actually, on Instagram. They're like, I don't know. PTO were always bitchy ladies. And I'm like, good God. I'm sorry. All your ladies were. I've, like, these. These women that I've been working with have actually been very nice and welcoming. Um, but you, uh, know, these people are doing this for free. They're donating their time, their energy. Uh, and. And it.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker C: It's been a wonderful experience. I get to see my child during the day, which I've never, you know, been able to do working. So I've. I've enjoyed it, and. But I will be ready to give up this.

Speaker B: I like how Lee said you won it. Won the title. That's.

Speaker C: I did win this title, unfortunately.

Speaker B: It does sound like a bit like hr, though. Like, oh, everybody I know is, you know, not Very nice. That's what people say about HR sometimes, as we know.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm sure that you did a ton for Teacher Appreciation Week. And still someone complained about something. You know what I mean? Like, typical hr, they didn't like the flavor, something, or why can't there be this or that or I mean, you know, it does. I'm allergic to this. Or I mean all the things, you

Speaker B: know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Speaker A: That's it right there.

Speaker B: It is so, so true. So I have a wrap up question for you all this week as I'm recording this, I spoke to a local SHRM chapter and talked about this. That these are organizations that are made up of volunteers that have full time HR jobs and are doing this to provide resources. And just some of the best organizations, um, shout out to the Great River Chapter. Jamie was out at Virginia Beach a couple weeks ago and just awesome, awesome people looking for resources. And so any one question that someone brought up to me, they're like, ah, ah, this resonated with your talk about trying to be the cleanup person. Like you, you join an organization and people just expect, oh, uh, you're going to fix this. So any, just wanted a quick words from anyone. If you have tips for those in HR that are either brought into an organization or just doing your job and people are like, can you fix this as HR and being the cleanup person.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I used to take on a lot more earlier in my career, as we all do, because we have to learn in all of this, you know. And then at some point I had the epiphany that this is really a team sport and we are all accountable. We're accountable to the culture, we're accountable to our employees. We are all accountable. Uh, because even if I were to just, you know, flip a switch or change something in a system or whatnot, we are all still accountable to shifting our behaviors and our language and our processes and adhering or whatever the case may be. Right. I mean, so this notion that hr, ah, is just the cleanup crew or the junk drawer for bullshit. I think that we need to take the onus of, you know, upon ourselves as HR professionals to ensure we are always treated as professionals, uh, and part of the team. Team. No, uh, one gets to toss turds over my fence anymore. It's been years since I allowed that shit. I push right on back. I don't care who you are. I mean, I've had some really candid, hard conversations with CEO level, uh, folks that, you know that you Know, respectfully, uh, you know, that's, that's not one of my priorities. I have, uh, you know, I can support, I can coach, I can help, I can, you know, be part of the team. But that's not on me to fix that shit just because I'm good at doing stuff. You know what I mean? We need to hold whoever owns it accountable so they can learn and develop or fail and learn that way. Right? I mean, whatever the case may be, but it can all come, it can all come to us. Uh, so I think, you know, stopping the people pleasing and just remembering the badass professionals that we are, like, putting that first is very important.

Speaker C: I think what I was going to say. I think I might have interpreted your question a little differently. But like, when I'm in a new role, um, one thing I'm doing differently now that I did earlier in my career is I'm actually taking like the first couple six months maybe to more observe and not being so quick to like, well, I'm going to change everything and I'm going to fix everything. Because a lot of times there is a method to the madness that the previous person had put in place. And even though it doesn't necessarily make sense to me right at the beginning, it might in a few months. And I'm like, oh, I, I see why they were doing it this way. Um, and I get it now and maybe we can improve on it. Um, but it, there's a reason they set it up that way. Um, and, and, and I'll be honest, I, that happened to me earlier in my career. I, you know, have stormed in, you know, I got my newly new title and I was promoted and I was a director and I walked in and I changed all the things and then I realized I actually fucked up because I thought that that's what I had to do. Um, and so I realized that later in the career that if I just observed there's still things. Yes, of course there's always things to improve, um, and to make better. But, uh, if I could just observe first and really take an inventory. And like you said too, Lee, this is a team sport and the team isn't just hr, it's, it's ops. It's, um, it's, you know, it's everyone, it's accounting. Um, and you do have to push back and you can't just be a people pleaser and take everything on yourself and clean up the mess.

Speaker B: Well, I have this pause consider, act framework that's in, in my book and in my, you know trainings and things. The way I bring it to life is, is thinking about the person on the other side of that and what's driving them, the pressures that they're probably having that they may not articulate to you or you may not realize how much they affect that them personally. But also providing context because whether or not, whether it's sending in a meeting invite, not having an answer, someone's going to think or not having a reason, um, for it. The recipient, if they're your employee, they're going to think they're getting fired. Like people in any situation fill, fill emptiness or lack of knowledge with the worst case scenario. Sometimes that's about themselves and sometimes it's about you. And so same if you come in and start doing things, even if you've been told, oh, you're in hr, your job is to fix things, you come in hot, people are going to dislike you and that is going to affect the results that you have. And providing context, whether it's to the CEO that says, you know, go fix everything, this is your, your world. Okay, fair enough. But if I come in and I'm giving everybody, telling everybody what to do, I'm going to lose people like that. So I do want to take the opportunity to listen and get their perspective and then see what I have to shape and move with speed of um, that so provide that reassurance as you're talking to other people saying, yeah, I, I'd love to know what you wish more people, including people in hr, knew about your role. Because I may have ideas, but that's what my job is. Providing context as much as possible. And giving an explanat. Fill in those gaps can make your own life so much, so much easier.

Speaker A: That pause. Consider, act people. The manager method out on shelves. Get it now. Love it.

Speaker B: Lee's book for pre sale. Right, Lee?

Speaker A: Yeah, the book, it's called Workable. Um, and it is, yeah, it is up on pre sale but just like under the radar. Like it's being built out. You know what I'm saying? Like, the COVID is not up there yet. Like it, you know, it'll. I'll announce it when it's like all ready. But, uh, the, the crazy January 2027.

Speaker B: It's all exciting. Meanwhile, Jamie's going around meeting with her new constituents in her pto. We're all coming, interviewing everybody, students in the carpool line. If you see President Jackson coming through, she is, She's a woman of the people. She's.

Speaker A: She's leading you, shaking hands, kissing babies.

Speaker C: Cool, because no one knows. No one knows what I do outside of the pto. It's pretty awesome.

Speaker B: Wow. This is your new. This is your new identity. I looking forward to your new Instagram account, Dedic. Ptoing.

Speaker A: Literally. That would be fun. Bye, besties.

Speaker B: George Costanza, we trust.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker C: Uh, love you. Bye, besties.