Wildland Firefighting as a Workforce Reentry Model: Chief Royal Ramey on the Prison-to-Public-Service Pipeline

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Because I think that sometimes that gets past people and they get so caught up in flaming a finger and putting, you know, what, what is this person doing or what this person's saying? Which doesn't really align with really what you really want to do and accomplishing yourself. Welcome to High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson. This season we're diving deeper with more solo episodes where I'll share the experiences that have led to recognition by Eye, Forbes, Fast Company and others. Not as a boast, but as milestones on my entrepreneurial path. From growing multimillion dollar firms to successful business exits and building high performance teams with a global perspective, I'll reveal the insights and strategies from my journey and share them with you so that we can win together. Alongside these solo episodes, we'll have industry visionaries and thought leaders and we'll explore effective leadership. Ready to empower your leadership journey with real success stories, let's embark on this transformational journey together. Welcome to another episode of High Octane Leadership. I'm your host Donald Thompson and I'm joined today by Royal Ramey, a 12 year wildland firefighting veteran and 2024 TED fellow. Royal's journey is one of the most powerful examples of redemption and grit I've ever encountered. After serving six years in prison where he first learned to fight wildfires, he returned home to find that he was disqualified from the very profession that his incarceration had inadvertently prepared him for. Rather than walking away, he co founded the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program. To date, Royal and his team have helped over 3,000 current and formerly incarcerated individuals navigate the prisoners to public service pipeline, proving that those who have Been through the fire are often the best equipped to lead during the climate crisis, also known as global warming. Royal, thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. One of the things I want to jump into and I've been really blessed. I've gotten to know your story and talked offline and some different things and really wanted to dig into this for our audience. You also, you often talk about that big change that moves from that period of uncertainty. Right. That period of not having a lot of choices, right to now moving out into that public service role. If you don't mind, just kind of unpack, right. That transition for our audience so that they can really get into kind of what you experienced and how you ended up making that decision to make a positive out of something that could have been taken as a negative. To be honest with you, this is definitely a journey. So, you know, like you said, I was, you know, formerly incarcerated and fire camp. I did, you know, since the six years in prison. And it really gave me an opportunity to evaluate myself and things that I wanted to change my life because as you being a person that's been incarcerated, you know, when that, that release date comes, you know, most likely you, it's going to be hard for you to find a job. So for me personally, it was an opportunity that I felt like God had blessed me with of me actually having the ability to go and fight wildfires and, you know, prepared me to in a way where I was, you know, just. I. I didn't want to be defined by my worst m. My decision. Right. You know, I was a statistic. I was someone person that was pretty much was written off and. But the first time I put on that, you know, yellow no max and pick up that tool and got on that fire line, my eyes were open and, you know, I didn't now that, you know, take. I wasn't even taking from my community. I was actually protecting it. And, and that's, I think that's one of the things that really kind of like put me in a position of like identifying and knowing that like, actually I do have some type of purpose. You know, I do have an identity that's reflected in a positive light, not only in a negative. So, you know, being a fire cap, it taught me discipline, accountability, purpose. And it showed me that I wasn't broken. I was, I just needed that pathway like so many others. And fire fighting fires in prison then just, you know, you know, provide me the opportunity to be successful and win. But it also gave me an opportunity to become a better person. That is awesome. And you know, the part that I heard that just touches my heart, right. Is we all have a purpose, but our life and our circumstances can cloud it to where we start to doubt ourself or doubt our reasons and different things. And so it's so powerful, not just for you, but I want to ask a question. That 3,000 is a big number of folks that you've moved through the program. One, that's impressive, right? Two, what is that process of actually creating that nonprofit? That process of actually formalizing, right. A way to do this so that other people actually have a path. Right. You were doing it through the rubble and figuring it out. Right. But you created a more of a paved path for others. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, it was definitely a challenge. I didn't have the degree right. And the know how to make things happen. But you know, Google University does exist. Google University, Right, right. Figured it out. And what I noticed about myself and even my co founder, Brandon Smith, we really realized that the, the importance of the power of choice, you know, choosing to, to go down that path and really educating ourselves in a way where we knew that, you know, we, this is, we wanted as bad as we wanted to breathe, right. We knew that once we came home from prison, we wanted to create a pathway. And it was like, okay, what are you, what choice do we have and what are the things that we can control to be able to actually make this thing happen? So that's where you got to go in the books and learn and, and ask questions and guys like yourself, right, that mentored us and gave us, you know, those nuggets of jewels to be able to really make this thing work. Because it was definitely a learning curve for us. We didn't know too many things, but like when you, you know, when you focus, laser focus on things and if you want things to be, to be done in a way that you see fit, you know, you have to get out of your comfort zone. You have to, you know, put in the effort, right, to, to really understand things. And that's just like having that motivation and drive and make it happen. And like, for me personally, I have a four step process when it comes to achieving a goal. So for me, first is like, okay, what is that actually goal that I want to achieve? What is the definite goal? And then I ask myself, the second thing is like, do you have the burning desire to accomplish it when it's when you sick, you know, headache, when you don't feel like doing it, right? Like, do you have that burning desire to keep going regardless of the situation and then having that blueprint, Right. What is the A to Z steps to be able to accomplish it? And then the last step is actually executing or utilizing or applying that. Your burning desire and your, you know, your plan. Right. And I think every time I've done it, I've been successful. And it was actually a book, I believe it's the seven Habits of Highly Effective People that I read that through. And it really gave me that confidence and that ability to be successful. When you have a formula of success and yeah, definitely Google University. But also like knowing the power that I have and things that I can control to be able to be successful when that is powerful. So the four steps, just so I want to repeat these. What do you want? Right. How do you define what you want to crystallize that vision? Right. And do you have that burning desire to achieve it? What's the game plan? What's the blueprint? Right? And then ultimately you got to do it, you got to execute against it. Right? Because a lot of people talk about it and then, then when they're tired, right. When it's late, all the things. Right. That burning desire is what makes you do it when you don't feel like it. And that's whether it's sports, whether it's business, whether it's firefighting. And so that's great wisdom nuggets right there. And I like chicken nuggets. But you just kicked out some words. But you just kicked out some wisdom nuggets. And I. And those are, those are good too. So you've spoken about the validation, the hero identity, right. What has that been like to being told you're nothing to now you're out there in this world, right. You are saving people and land and all the different things that you're doing, building community. Right. And absolutely something. But. But most people are working through mental breakthroughs, right? Right. And so that's really what this question is about. How did you manage that confusion of people putting you down, saying you're nothing, the system being a statistic to saying, wait a minute, I can be a hero too. I can matter, too. That's a good question. I think I always was resilient when I was a little kid, you know, I always had the mentality of, like, when I hear no, I think, yes. You know, when people, you know, say that I can't, you know, do things, it's just. It lights a fire under me. Right. And it really. And you know, just being from, you know, the inner city and understanding, like, okay, you dealt with a certain hand in life, and you just got to make the best of it. And it is not about who's wrong, who's right, people putting things, you know, barriers and, you know, things. Challenges in front of you. It. Just being able to, okay, how can I overcome things? How can I be the best version of myself, right? And knowing internally, like, I do have purpose, I have the ability to overcome challenges. I do feel like I have, you know, the ability to do whatever I want. And I think with educating myself in prison and. And knowing the tools that I have to be able to have the. The vehicle to be successful has really given me that validation. And then when I was in prison, it just. It just reaffirmed things for me, right? When I was, like, fighting fires, and I'm like, I love what I'm doing. I feel purpose. I know when I go out and fight fires, people say, you know, thank you, firefighters. I'm in Orange. But I know that, you know, I. I've actually been doing the work alongside the professionals, right? So, like, it's. It's that mentality of, like, you know, what? Like. Like knowing that you have experience in this piece and not, like, worrying about, you know, the outside noise and what people tell you, but knowing and believing in yourself, and then you can propel to wherever that may be. And. And I like, I just. I don't know, I just been. You know, when I was a little kid, I was a little hustler. I was a little grinder. You know, I was like the guy that, you know will sell you candy at school. You know, the guy that, you know, would try to figure. Like, I sold tickets. Like, I used to scout tickets when I was a kid and talking to those, you know, like, I had those. That. That mentality as a young age. So as I grew older and sharpened some of my tools mentally, I really realized, like, it's not about your record. It's not about where you been. It's about. It's actually where you want to be and where you want to go. And what control do you really have? And it's really the power of choice to be able to move left or right or whatever and focus on the things that you can control. Because I think that sometimes that gets past people and they get so caught up in blaming a finger and putting, you know, what. What is this person doing or what this person's saying, which doesn't really align with really what you really want to do and accomplishing Yourself, like, so that's. That, that, that meant like the, the, the mindset, the power of you knowing that you can achieve and get things done. You said a lot that I want to unpack, but the biggest thing I want to share with the audience is you talked about what you can control. There's so many things in life that are outside our span of control. They affect us. Doesn't make it easier, but we can't really change everything. But if we focus on the things that we can control, we can start to see progress, right? And we can make and create momentum. Most people are missing momentum in their life, right? And they're waiting for the government, they're waiting for the boss at work. They're waiting, they're waiting for someone else to create their momentum. And I got to tell you, in my journey as a business person, being the only one that looked like me in a lot of rooms for a lot of years, you got to create your own momentum. You have mentors and sponsors and different things, but you got to create your own movement and own that power of choice that you talked about. So I love that a lot. One of the things in, as we talked before, stigma versus skill, right? And you talk about firefighting as a lifestyle, not a 9 to 5, right? Talk to me about that in the context of what every leader can learn about that mentality, right? Not just a firefighter, but that transitions to anybody that's doing something at a high level. That's another good question. You as a. So like you said, firefighter is a lifestyle. It's not a 9 to 5. And you have to understand the importance of creativity, innovation, being courageous, not limiting yourself to certain things is really around, you know, have integrity, self discipline, right? Those, those key unique personal traits, right, that can propel you to a leader and kind of separate yourself from other folks. Because you have a lot of people, you know, that be in these positions that don't understand the fundamental values and goals of even your organization in which you will accomplish. And knowing that you need people to be able to get you to that level of success and then building that culture right around understanding the importance of, you know, what our mission, what our goals, what our values, what are we trying to achieve and, and, and inspiring your, you know, the folks that you're leading because that gives them the energy and the, the, the drive to want to, to, to. To look, make you look like a genius, right? And I tell my folks all the time, like out of the 3,000 folks that we influence and empowered in some way, Shape or form, Right. Like I say all the time, like, y' all make me look like a star. Right? You make me look like a genius. But how did we get to the success? It starts with, you know, one or two people, right? And then building and building and building and instilling those. Those. Those traits and those values and showing them that they can be successful and win based off of the formula that you have. And I know, like, for you, Don, like the formula that you created, right. In your franchises, right. It makes a whole lot of. Makes a difference of people wanting to come to work, being excited, being happy, because they know they have a leader that is pushing the envelope and providing opportunity and want, you know, generally want everybody to be successful. That's awesome. And I know that's one of the things that, too, that I noticed a lot of, you know, culture and cultures in certain businesses, whether it's in hospitality, whether it's in, you know, different industries. Right. Government, that the culture play a big part and, you know, identifying people that really want and understand the mission, the value, the goals of the org and what you want to accomplish, to do or the company. Right. And I think that's something that is very important to. To. To express and. And to let folks know. That's. That's. That's awesome. One of the things that you have done is legislative action advocacy, Right? Because, you know, and this hasn't been my experience, I'm very fortunate. My dad has several transition homes in eastern North Carolina to give people a place to stay when they're coming out of being incarcerated. They're getting off of drugs and different things because it's hard to reestablish yourself when no one will rent to you, no one will hire you. Right. How do you restart? Right. So I don't have that lived experience, but I. But I know that population a little bit through working with my dad. My question to you and your advocacy is about how can we get records expunged? When people go through the firefighting program, they're giving back to the community. Why do you think that's so important in terms of that restoration process? I think expungement is definitely a bridge, you know, to people's success, and I think it validates individuals knowing that they have put in the work to be rehabilitated, in acknowledging, right. That they're transitioning, success in being able to provide an opportunity for them to be financially stable in the long term. Right. And it shows that when you do give a person that opportunity to say, hey, you actually, you did the work, you put in the work to be a better person or you even contribute to society. Where you got folks that's been from the incarcerated fighting fires and putting their lives on the line, right? And then previously a dollar an hour, right, They've been doing this for dollars an hour. But then when they come home, right, they don't have an opportunity. And it's like we, we got to really look at the landscape of what people are doing in prison and how are we helping rehabilitate people and how are we giving people the second chance to be able to be successful? And expungement is one of the big component pieces of it because it shows that, you know, you know, this person actually is not defined by their, their past, but they're actually defined by what they're actually currently doing. And when you look at the stats, right, it's like it costs $132,860 to house one person in California prison each year, right? When you look at the economic piece, right, when you provide an opportunity for individual who have paid, paid their debt to society, right? And now instead of we paying at 100 and you know, 32,860 bucks into, into the prison system and then we give them some training where they can actually not only, you know, save that amount of money, but having a six figure career on top of that benefits retirement, that motivates them to want to be a conductive citizen, right? We don't want people on the corner selling drugs. We don't want people running in people's houses and stealing, right? It's a, it's a, it's a vehicle that we can use to be able to get them to that level of success. And it all helps with the economy too, right? The less people we have in prison, right, the more, you know, we have to worry about the crime piece, right? The more people are working 9 to 5 and they're busy, right? That lifestyle piece, right? They're not even thinking about that. They're thinking about taking care of themselves, their families, and even actually protecting the community. Which I think it's really mind blowing where you can see a person that come from incarceration to freedom to be in a public nuisance to a public servant, right? Those are the key components that like, at least what we're doing, we're changing the narrative, right? Where a person has been a minister to society or did something that was, you know, that's not too crazy, whatever when it comes to fire camp, but like, but now looked as a Public hero and public servant. Right. It's like, it's amazing. So that expungement piece gives that vehicle for people to feel great about themselves and knowing that they put in the work to be successful. And what you're talking about, just so we're clear, is not a handout. We're talking about people that are going through a program that are giving back to the society even after they've paid their price in prison, but giving them a chance to have that full citizenship, if you will, restored. And that is powerful. And the way you broke it down economically, because unfortunately, people don't do things because they're the right thing to do. People do things because they meet their economic objectives. And what you described about is instead of $130,000 in to house somebody in the state of California, you've got somebody that's six figure income out. And now they're buying property, now they're paying taxes, now they're putting money into the economy. So I like the story, I'm moved by it. But unfortunately we live in an economic driven society, right? And so you got to talk to people about the economic value. And you just did. I think that is powerful. Let me get to. We talked about some facts. We talked about the foundation forward for folks that you've helped. Talk to me about how it makes you feel to see folks that you formerly served with that now are going through this program and now you're moving them into a much better life, much better trajectory. How does that make, what does that do for you, man? I'm just getting goosebumps right now. You telling me that like it's everything, it means everything to me. That's why we do it. It's like, it's funny. I had one of our cohort members, I think he was in Cohort 4, and he actually promoted just recently. And he also just got his expungement done because it took four years because of his case and what he was going. But he, he, you know, he called me and he was like, she framed me. Like, you really help pave the way. And obviously I have staff, I have a lot of people that helps out right when it comes to our program. But it really just gave me, you know, brought tear to my eyes because I remember feeling lost. I remember, you know, not having a pathway or even knowing where to start. And you know, now to hear people that like their change, their life changing, you know, moments like that, and I just know I played a very small piece because what I do want to express is that each individual that come through the program had to sign up, they had to put in the work. They had to, you know, they. They. The one who actually made that conscious decision to come every day, come prepared and, like, wanted to be a better person. And that's something that. It just is just, you know, it was everything to me. Like, it. It makes me feel good knowing that, you know, in the past, I made mistakes when I was a young, you know, young man, and now, you know, being able to pay it forward and pay it back, that's something that we, you know, actually, you know, preach in our career training program to be able to pay it forward, give it back. And not only just folks that's in firefighter, but in your community, right? People that's wherever you at, right? Being just a good person and wanting to help and. Because I believe the purpose of life is to serve, right? And the more you. You give, the more you receive. Because I tell our folks all the time is like. Like I have a circle, right? And it's like, everybody put. Put your hand out. Everybody had their hand out, right? And I was like, how can everybody. Can anybody receive anything if everybody got their hand out, right? Like, you can't. So. But I said, all right, everybody, you know, start giving. Everybody give. And everybody start giving, giving. I'll say, see, if everybody's giving, everybody receiving. If everybody got their hand out, nobody's getting anything. And that's the mentality that we need to incorporate and know that it's important for us to give. And then also lastly, I'll say also, we talk about in Butu, right? I am. Because we are. And it's the mindset of that, right? And. And it's not about just only, you know, I could teach anybody to be a firefighter, Don. I could show you all the tricks and trades, right, to be a firefighter. But it's the. It's the mental aspect of it is the emotional intelligence is the, you know, the mindset of being the best version of yourself as much as you possibly. Right? Like, being a better person, trying to grow in every way, shape, or form, whether it's physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. Right? Those are the key pieces that I think why I'm so proud of our folks that pay it forward constantly and really push the narrative as far as, like, you know, not having to go back to the past, but also just looking forward and being able to get and serve. That's awesome. I'm not losing my train of thought. I'm just processing what you're Saying, and I'm proud of you. And even though we're just getting to know each other and we're doing some partnering things and. And the second thing I'll say is that you're inspiring me. I meet a lot of talented people and different things. The grit required from the cards you were dealt to get to where you are, and then being selfless and looking back and saying, I want to create the same path for others. Right. Because there's a lot of. There's. There are people that have done well, been to prison, done things, and they go off and live their life. Fantastic. And power to them. But you decided to now make sure that other people have that same advantage or opportunity. Right. That you did. And that makes me sit up and take notice. Like that's that giving story through your walk, not just through your words. Right. And a lot of people are good with the words, but they don't really walk it out. Right. You know what I mean? Like they. Right, right. And so I want to just share that. That compliment. With your success in California, does it stop there? Is there a bigger vision? Like, what's the. What. What's next? Like, what's that. What's that big picture goal that. That we can get people to help get behind? Yeah. I think is. So from what my research I've shown is that it's 13 other states that utilize incarcerated people to fight wildfires, and they don't have programs like FFRP, the Force Unfair Recruitment Program 2 help folks out. So obviously I want to get deeper into California because we have. We serve folks that's in Southern California and also in Northern California. I think it's a section maybe where Central California is a place that we can, you know, our next steps. But then identifying different states that could find a way to partner up with us. I'm in. You know, I got a couple of states that I got eyes on that I think that it could be really great for our program, an expansion really, and having a hub there and then I think too preventative work. Right. Like, it shouldn't take a person to go to fire camp or go to prison to fight wildfires and learn that skill and come home and do all that. Right. So what I've been really focusing on is the high school and I think high school students and that's where the youth. Right. That I think that's the piece where if we could provide them an opportunity of like just the, you know, the Fortune Fire careers, but also just the awareness of it, because I think that's Something when I was in, you know, in middle school and high school, I see these red engines constantly, you know, drive by the, you know, drive by. But I never see nobody that looked like me. So that wasn't even a thing to even like consider, right. All I remember is like, okay, in order for you to be successful in the hood, right, or in inner city, is either you a rapper, you entertainer in some way, you're a rapper, you playing football, basketball, some sports entertainment, music or something like that, like, or being, being in the streets. So those are the three pathways. And I'm like, I'm five, you know, I was five, nine, 100 and some pounds, you know, saying. And then like musically I can, I can't sing, I can't rap. Like so I'm like, man, this is, this is the route that I got to take. But then when you, but when we started talking to the youth and are just going to. So, so I remember, you know, you have those career days, right? Yeah. And it's one day and you see somebody, oh, that might be interesting, but you don't really understand the intricate details of it, right? So like you, we need to be more proactive and not only just, you know, telling folks what we do, but actually going out and being more proactive and doing a quarterly thing and talking to the counselors and, and saying, hey, let me. A day in the life of a firefighter. A day in life of a, you know, law enforcement officer or doctor or lawyer, right? Or even business person, right? Like we need to be more proactive in showing them, you know, showing the kids like these are the options you have and going out and looking at, you know, the day in the life of folks, right? And being a little bit more creative on that. And so shout out to the New World foundation that gave us an opportunity to be able to bring more awareness of the four stream fire careers where we go out, we, you know, talk about all the different platforms or different avenues that they have in a forestry fire career. But then also going to a fire station and seeing and touching the hose and looking at the engine and like seeing what folks do. So then it's like, okay, if you interested, okay, let's figure out a way to do a two week program where you know, you're actually doing stuff, you know, and just like leveling up with that. So then you investing time and effort into the kid to where they like, you know what? This is a cool opportunity for me to be able to, to explore. That's awesome. One of the things that, that you said is that you wanted to be a light so that you could look your family in the eyes and know that you did your absolute best. Talk to me a little bit about just that personal legacy that you want to, that you want to leave. Oof. You got some, you got some questions. When it's all said and done for me, I honestly just want people to know that I was a bridge, you know, that I help people go from being in prison and having, having a purpose. Like I said before, always wanted to be the Harriet Tubman of the fire service and helping people find their, their way out of darkness into opportunity. And that I remind folks that they are more than their worst mistake because I lived both sides of that story now, right? And, and if my life approves anything, is that, you know, with the right opportunity, people can truly rise honestly. And yeah, I just, I just want that to be a thing, man. And knowing that, you know, you don't have to be so self centered and, and knowing that it's very important to give back, right? It's very important to know that we couldn't do this without other people. You know, people, you know, you know, maybe clown, you know, people that have warehouse jobs or care, you know, folks that's, you know, the post office folks and you know, folks that have these, you know, there's basic jobs, right? That's, that's needed. But think about if that was, know, going. Think about a trash person, right? That's flicking your trash every week, right? Where whatever day it is, they're not being there, right? Everybody has, Everybody matters. Every. It's a purpose for everybody. Because if you don't have a plumber, if you don't have, think about not having water in your house, you know, think about not having, you know, refrigerator, right? Like people take, we take so much. We, we don't understand that everybody has their position and as long as people have that purpose and drive of what they want to do and helping people, I think that's the important piece. So I want people to know that everybody has a lane and, and being able to be just a great, good person. And yeah, I ain't gonna lie. It's a deep, that's a deep question. But it's. Those are the pieces that I, that are, you know, kind of at least the first thing that popped in my mind. Well, I appreciate the answer. And that brings me back to what we talked about earlier. Is that. That prison to public service pipeline, I love that phrase because it says so much about the power of second chances, right? And based on your pedigree friends you have, there are people in this world that get a lot of second and third chances, right? And then there's a set of population that we kind of throw away the key and don't want to deal with. And I think that if people are willing to do the work, if they're willing to put the education, the study in, we have to create more opportunities for people to make that change. Right? But you got to have the opportunities to do it. Right? And that's what you're talking about. I could absolutely talk to you all day, right? Because I'm curious. I'm so excited about what you're doing and being able to be a part of your journey as we grow together. The last question for me is, if you had a magic wand, this is off script and different things, but if you had a magic wand, what would you use that magic wand for in the world? Oof. Magic wand. First thing that popped in my head was make, like, if everybody could be. If everybody could care about folks, truly, truly care, have compassionate empathy for people, I think the world would be different. You know, like, think about it, you know, when people are so caught up in all the other stuff, right. Like, really genuinely, like, having that in boo to mindset. I am, because we are. If we had everybody had that, then I think the world would be a whole lot better. Right. Than what it is today and what we got going on, you know, really, you know, that. That's the. The magic wand for me personally, because life is not just about money. It's not about, you know, success and, like, all that stuff, because everybo. You know, success could be defined by the individual. That's right. But just, you know, just having compassion and love for you, I think that's something that I think is very important to me, and I think that's why I try to, you know, push forward and. And have. And. And be an example in the like. So that'll be my magic wand moment. I appreciate it very much. I. Before I. I wind down and. And kind of read the. The closing and different things, I'm gonna correct one thing. I introduced you as Royal Ramey. I didn't put the full respect on your name. Chief Ramey. My honor to talk to you. And look, I'm gonna put that chief on there, right? Because now you earned it. You deserve it. And as we build and lift your profile, it just makes me smile to see what you have done and then what you're becoming. And so as a little bit of a SOUNDBITE for folks how excited we are to have on the show. You've been on the Daily show, you've hung out with Jeff Bezos. You have run the circuit, right. And you are so humble. You really don't just brag about those things that you've done. Tell me a little bit about the experiences with meeting some of the most well known famous people in the world. How has that impacted you? How's that grown your network? What is that notoriety been able to do for your foundation? It definitely put us on a different wavelength when it comes to just knowing the, the work that we have accomplished and done. Honestly, it's been humbling. It's been isn't. We never thought in a million years that we would be in rooms with people that we have been in. But it just shows that when you have dedication and commitment to excellence and wanting to be a light to people, you do get it. Karma is karma, right? Things come back to you and is being moments where I'm like, oh my God, like my heart is racing to now. It's like now I really, you know, understand that I do belong in these rooms like because you know, that imposter syndrome has creeped up and stuff. But I think now it's like, you know, it just it now it gives me the sense of pride and accomplishment and knowing that I'm doing the good work and I'm at my intentions are good and I'm doing it for all the right reasons and it's just, it's just cool. It's just really cool. And you know, a lot of folks that I have, you know, numbers and have conversations with and folks believe in the work and what we're doing. It really helps financially too for the Oregon growth and looking for more investments and partnership and thought because when you scaling and growing, obviously those are the things. But it's just been great, man. It's been a great opportunity and I'm just blessed and humbled to have folks like yourself because don't show your show your stuff short too, man. You, you one of the legends out here and really did it big too. So I'm just humbled and appreciative of folks like yourself acknowledging the work and wanting to see my success and just giving me the opportunity to even be in those rooms because you know, a lot of folks have, it's a lot of non profit organizations in the world. Right? Right. And they don't get this opportunity. Right. I ain't seen it. And I'm just humble and you know, grateful for just the opportunity to just do my thing. So that's awesome. Yes. Chief Ramey, your story reminds us that some of our greatest leaders are found in places that society often overlooks and are underestimated. And you're saving forest, you're firefighting, but most importantly, right, you're building leaders, you're building people that can be effective contributors to society, and you're making a huge difference. Thank you so much for being on the show. It was my pleasure to spend some time and I know we're going to do some more chop it up outside of this episode, but it's been great talking to you and I appreciate you sharing your story. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity and looking forward to our partnership and more to come. There you go. Thank you for joining us on High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson. Today's episode is a step in our collective journey towards leadership excellence. Remember, every story we share and every insight we gain is a piece in the puzzle of our leadership journey. For more insight and detail, hit the subscribe button so that we can stay connected. For deeper information and more episodes, go to donaldthompson.com continue to lead with vision and purpose. And until we meet again, embrace your role as a high octane leader in the ever evolving world of business.