The Role of Inclusive Leadership in Organizational Success with Jackie Ferguson

Speaker A: It's okay to be vulnerable in the moment and understand that not every decision is the right one. And that's okay to back it up and go again. That, uh, allows for your employees to also take risks in their role and to be okay if that decision didn't go the way they planned and to back it up and do it a different way. And that creates so much innovation in an organization. It's so important.

Speaker B: Foreign. Hello and welcome to another episode of the B2B Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Nils Vigna, and today my guest is Jackie Ferguson. Jackie, welcome back to the show.

Speaker A: Hi, Nils. I'm so excited to be back with you today.

Speaker B: Well, I'm thrilled to have you back, Jackie. Last time you were here was on episode 45 and we talked all about inclusive language. It was an incredibly powerful episode, incredibly revealing episode. And a lot has been happening with the diversity movement since we last talked. So would you give us please, the big news and update that I saw, but want to make sure our audience knows about it too?

Speaker A: Absolutely. So, Nils, we were acquired by an organization called Workplace Options. And Workplace Options is a well being based global organization. They are all around the world and they saw the value in ensuring diversity. Equity and inclusion is included in well being. Right. You want your employees to feel that sense of belonging. DEI is ingrained within well being from a personal standpoint, from a mental health standpoint, just from a balance standpoint. Right from that feeling of feeling valued at work, feeling like your contributions matter, feeling a sense of community and all of that integrates with DEI and they saw that value. We were not looking to sell the company. But I was going to ask you

Speaker B: because, uh, acquisitions sometimes come, you know, uh, sometimes they're intentional and sometimes they're not. So they had done been doing research, had been looking around and then found you and pursued you, is that right?

Speaker A: That's exactly right. We were not looking to be acquired, but they reached out to us and you know, we get those types of inquiries on a regular basis. But our CEO Donald Thompson spent some time with them, looking into it and saw the synergies and, you know, it went from there. So we're very excited to now be part of the WPO organization and continue to do our work through that, that larger megaphone.

Speaker B: Oh, that's absolutely fantastic. Well, big congratulations to you, to Donald, to the entire TDM team. And it just gives. It's inspiring to know that, you know, you had a great voice in the space when you were just creating it, but now you're like you said the megaphone and now it's megaphone attached to your voice. And that's only going to improve people's lives. We'll be talking about inclusive leadership and all things today. But that's, that's absolutely wonderful. Super happy for you and the team. Just. Yeah, it's so.

Speaker A: Thanks so much, Nel. Thank you.

Speaker B: Absolutely. All right, so last time you were on the show, we talked a lot about inclusive language and the importance of that. You had written and been the co author of the Inclusive Language Handbook and things have evolved and now you are in the midst of publishing your second book, which is all about inclusive leadership, which is, uh, again, same similar theme, but totally different attack. And that's what I really want to dig into today and explore a little bit more. And I was lucky enough to get an advanced copy of the book, thank you very much. And read, uh, through. It was blown away. Absolutely love the, your ability to take the, the high level and the vision and the, the almost. It's not quite theory, but it's at that level or it's big picture. But then also provide the practical and actionable and tactical things that leaders every day can do on the front lines. And that is a very difficult balance to strike. So as you were going through this before we get into the book, too much. But as you were going through the creation of this inclusive link leadership book, what were some of the key things that you wanted to make sure happened that uh, you were thinking about when doing the high level and the practical at the same time?

Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, Nils, how the inclusive leadership Handbook started was through a assessment that we've created called TDM Leader View. And what we realized, you know, in, in our conversations together and understanding your work and then work throughout the US and beyond, is that our society is becoming more diverse. So inclusive leadership is necessary. Not just diverse in, you know, race and gender, but in generation, in, you know, ability, disability. We're thinking about just all the identities that come into the workplace every day and those individuals, those professionals, want to be themselves in the workplace. And so leadership continues to evolve. And inclusive leadership acknowledges that. It acknowledges the individual and the skill set that's required to lead multiple individuals, multiple backgrounds, multiple identities and, and create those business outcomes that you're looking for. And so what we wanted to do was create an assessment that could help professionals, whether you've been in leadership for 20 plus years or you're an aspiring leader, to understand what skill set they have or what competencies they have that align with those inclusive leadership. Um, you know, ideals. Right. And so what we did was create that assessment. They're based on seven competencies. And then we started testing those, and we've been able to test with some incredible companies around the globe, which we're very excited about. And then from there, we took that research, we took that methodology, and we created the Inclusive Leadership Handbook. And, you know, uh, as you said, Nils, it's. It hits the high level, but it really gets down into what are the behaviors that display that you have that competencies, you know, and then it gives you some opportunities to test it. Right? So if this is something that you're learning and, and trying to lean into, that's okay. Do this thing, try these couple of things. Then how did it go? How did you feel about that? What was the response? And so the book gives you lots of. Of opportunities to learn, understand, and practice, which is so important.

Speaker B: Uh, and absolutely 100% does. And hearing the backstory of how you created this is just wonderful. And oftentimes we don't get to know the full backstory of where books came from. Right. Where any author out there. There was a backstory for every single book that's ever been created. But oftentimes the reader doesn't really get to know what it was. But to know that all of this was not conjured up in the conference, uh, room, somebody sitting there saying, what should we write about? It came from practical application of assessments and consulting work and education and projects and improvement in organizations. It came all from that. To distill it down those hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours into the practical things that you need to do, shaped by the structure that you put in place.

Speaker A: Nils, that's so well said. And that is reflective of everything that we do from the Inclusive Language Handbook. Right? That was, that was a. Years of, of, uh, practice before we wrote that handbook. And then with the inclusive leadership piece, same thing. We have an inclusive marketing handbook coming next. So we like to call it the. The Inclusive Universe. Right.

Speaker B: I like that.

Speaker A: And so. But, right. We start with a work first, test the work, refine the work, and then we say, okay, I think we're ready to start writing about this. Oh, um, that was so well described.

Speaker B: I think it's a big reason why we get along so well, because I. I do the same thing, right? Writing my book. People ask me, how long did it take you to write your book? And I'm like, well, from the time I committed to writing the book to the time I published the book and got the Amazon bestseller link, was 110 days. However, it took me the 20 years prior of doing the work, uh, in order to be able to write that book and publish it in 100, 110 days, right?

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker B: There are no shortcuts in that. Just like in your world. And there are no shortcuts in this. There are no shortcuts. But we can take advantage of other people who have done all that extensive work and piggyback on their success as long as they can teach us in a way that sets the stage for what the big picture is, but also gives us the practical tools. And I think that's where a lot of books fail. They were incredible at uh, theory and ideas and big picture stuff. But then the reality of, well, how do I take this and put this into action in my life? Doesn't always come through.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And Nils, you know we've talked about before, but there, there isn't a pull aside when you're moving from individual contributor to leader, a manager. And so being able to get some of those shortcuts where people that have a lead, teams and businesses for decades getting those shortcuts to be able to say, okay, let me wade through all of this minutia and get to the things that uh, matter to the employees that I'm leading is so important. And you know, when we think about the work that you do, the work that we do, it helps those leaders. And again, whether you've been a leader for 20 years and you're seeing things start to really change around you. Right. It's not that same top down leadership methodology that was used when, you know, when I entered into, you know, my career. You know, I don't need something same for me. And so, and so it's changing. And so how do you keep up with what's required to lead teams successfully? You've gotta be engaging with leadership experts like you, like the diversity movement that are really digging into this work because you know, it's, you've gotta be able to inspire those employees to create collaborative environments, to create cultures where they feel safe and valued and are able to contribute their best work. And that's how you create sustainable business. And so those things change. Right. Leadership is ever evolving and you've gotta keep up with people that have their

Speaker B: pulse on it a hundred percent. And that gets to uh, one of the most important points that you And I absolutely 100% agree on is you can't just go and figure this stuff out. There's no point. You will, one, you will spend your entire career trying to Quote, unquote, figure it out. And you will waste a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of relationships and a lot of missed opportunities. Incredible amounts. But no matter how many times I say that, and I will champion that and say that till the end of my days, there is a, there is someone else has already figured out what you want to do. All you need to do is find them and then probably pay for them and then take the shortcut and follow their success. That's it. Right. Relatively simple. But the, the predominant thinking out there as well. I'm so busy in my day to day world and I have so many demands and I should be spending 100% of my time and energy only on the things that are right in front of me. And so how do you look at that from a. Uh, you know, you need to piggyback and learn from others who have been there when the predominant thinking is I'm so busy and I'm under so much water, I can't possibly even take my head out to even read a book or listen to a podcast. How do you approach that question?

Speaker A: You know, I look at it, Nils, as you know, you and I are, are on the east coast.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: We could drive to the west coast, but if we had a map, we could get there faster.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And so, and it's, it's exactly the same thing. Like you can stumble through it and figure it out and make lots of mistakes and like you said, cost relationships, lose great employees. Or you can take the maps that have been set for you in, in many different forms. Whether that be a book, whether that be a, uh, uh, you know, leadership course. Right. And, and take that and say, okay, I need to get to the best type of leadership, that authentic leadership. That's me. Right. And, and people love and respect that. And then there are still lessons that, that you learn, but you're getting there faster with a map. And uh, that's what I look at it as, having that, that map or that GPS to get to where you want to go faster.

Speaker B: Love it. Yeah. And so, and you could even take a plane to get there even faster. Let somebody else do the driving. All you got to do is show up and follow the path and the steps that they tell you to do and get on the plane when they tell you and get off when they tell you and you're there. Right?

Speaker A: Absolutely. No. And that's your work, right?

Speaker B: My. Yes.

Speaker A: I've got the map with this, this book that was written by Donald Thompson and Kurt Merriweather but your work is certainly putting them on a plane and getting 100%.

Speaker B: That's why. That's why we're such a good pair. All right, so, Jackie, in the book, there was a wonderful definition that you had of what inclusive. Inclusive leadership actually means, because it's one of those terms. And if you don't know what the definition is, you might conjure up a bunch of stuff or have some generalities. But I really love the crispness and specificity that you included in this definition. So you said, quote, inclusive leadership is the ability to instill in others a sense of unique value and belonging in the organization or team in order to meet organizational, financial, and business outcomes. And I wanted to pick this apart with you just a little bit to get a little more deep on the first piece of that sense of unique value. When you say unique value there, what are you really referring to?

Speaker A: So when individuals, when professionals feel a sense of belonging, they want to contribute their best work. One, they're energized to go into the office. They're energized to work with our managers. They're not afraid to speak up because, one, they. They have a voice in the organization, and two, they know that their ideas will be thoughtfully considered. Right. I know most of us, certainly I have worked for jobs where, you know, I'm there, I'm treated kind of as a number, and I go in, I do my 40 hours and leave. Right. We've all had those kind of situations in our lives where we're just doing what we can until we find what we want. But as inclusive leaders, we can create the type of culture that makes people excited about doing their best work, about contributing ideas. They're more productive when they feel that sense of belonging. And so studies show, I think it was an Oxford study, Nils, that said that happy employees, employees that feel that sense of belonging, camaraderie, are 12 or 13% more productive. And over the course of a year, that is significant time. Uh, right. And. And that's productivity without additional overhead, which means more profitability. Right. And so with innovation, with better collaboration, with more productivity, you're getting to those business outcomes faster because you've created a culture among your employees where they want to be there, they want to work. And I haven't even touched retention. Right. When you create that. That culture where people are excited to be there, they don't want to leave, right? Because they know that doesn't exist everywhere, and so they're going to stay. And we all know that the cost of turnover and how expensive that is for organizations. So creating those employee engagement tools or creating those really great outcomes for employees allows you to achieve the outcomes that you want for your business.

Speaker B: And those that 12 to 13% increase in productivity from that Oxford study you mentioned there, that is. MHM. Has nothing to do with anything else. No other tools, no other application, no other training. It is purely just in the environment that's created. And as a leader you can create any kind of environment that you want. That's the, that's the trick, right? Is the. And oftentimes, you know, people say, well, I hope to have time later in my career to be able to take, know more personal time and, and really volunteer in my community and spend time and really make an impact on people's lives. And volunteering the community, wonderful thing to do. But if you're waiting till later in your career to have an impact on people's lives, you're missing a massive opportunity that exists every single day. Because we all know that we spend more time at work than any other part of our life. And you will have an impact on the people's lives that work for you and with you. But you have to choose. Are you going to have that positive impact or are you going to have a negative one? And the most resounding thing that comes up is kind of the m. True magnification of the impact that is not always known. But if everybody reflects for a moment and thinks about a bad boss, right, Jackie, think about it with someone you worked for who was an uh, inclusive leader, who was not in great shape, and think about the one, the emotional, uh, stress and frustration that it caused for you, but also how that impacted your friends and your family and your colleagues and all the other people you come into contact with. This, the impact is huge. So to hear about a, uh, 12 to 13% increase in productivity just from creating a psychologically safe environment that is inclusive. That's unreal. That's unreal.

Speaker A: Uh, absolutely. And you know, the thing about it knows is if you don't intentionally create an environment that you want, the environment that's naturally created will be very disjointed. It won't be inclusive. It won't have that feeling of belonging. You as a leader have to really step in and, and drop, you know, fly the plane as using a, uh, metaphor from our earlier conversation and, and say, this is what I want to intentionally create. And these are the, the skill bases and the, you know, the, the language that we're going to use and the uh, the way that we're going to treat each other as a standard and it creates an environment that, where people want to be. And that's what we're seeing again and again, not just here in the US but all over the world. And that's why leadership and understanding how to properly and effectively lead people is so important.

Speaker B: A hundred percent. And so to complement the, creating the safe environment and an inclusive environment and getting that 12 to 13% productivity boost. Right. I would complement that with when you give them the actual tools that they need in on a day to day basis and there's many tools that you provide and TDM provides. There's tools that I provide in the leadership mba. The participants who have been through the leadership MBA have come out on the other side and I've asked them about their productivity as a result of having this entire toolkit so that they simply execute the steps when they face a uh, leadership challenge and know what it is as opposed to trying to figure out what should I do next before executing the steps. And we've had upwards of some people get 10 to 20% increase in productivity. 20 to 30. I've even had people go through and have Ah, a 50% increase in productivity because we took away all the guesswork and they just following the best practice in every situation. So if you are, you know, build an inclusive leadership culture number one and then your leaders have tools in order to, you know, show up in a different way. The combination of our two, we're upwards of, you know, potentially 50, 60, 70% increased productivity which is gigantic.

Speaker A: It's so huge. And the thing about productivity Nails is if you're getting that productivity from your current employee base, you're not adding overhead. You don't need more employees to get to those outcomes because your employees are just naturally working harder. You know, we've, we've all worked in jobs in our past where we're just really phoning it in and it's just a result of not feeling valued in the space. And you know, you know that you're clocking out and kind of just daydreaming and taking those longer lunches when you're energized to be in the workplace because you have inclusive, an inclusive environment, inclusive manager, you're excited about going to work, you're excited about what you can contribute and then you take your time off intentionally. But uh, when you're in, you know that seat, you're dialed in and, and that creates such amazing business outcomes for organizations. So for leaders, if you're creating that environment where People want to be and are excited to contribute. You get to those business outcomes so much faster.

Speaker B: A hundred percent. Okay. So, Jackie, I want you to think about a story where that really came to life for you, where you were in an environment where this. Things had changed. Maybe you were engaged in an involves at one point, but then you kind of let it go. Okay. And while you think about that, I'm going to tell a quick story of mine because this, this played out so clearly as you explain this so many years ago. This was when I was still an individual contributor and I worked for a software company and I was part of. I was quasi sales engineer. I was part of the sales team. Basically I was the technical part of the sales team. Well, we had this wonderful product and I was partnered with a sales rep who is an excellent, excellent salesperson. And we went out and we. One of the deals that we worked on was this huge, monstrous deal, one of the largest in the company, period, in the history. Right? And so it's very, very exciting. And I was all in. I mean, I'm talking like nights, weekends. I did not care. I was a hundred percent, just bought in because I loved what I did in being able to run demos and set up environments and tell, you know, help the customer understand how our solution was going to help them. While I partnered with my sales associate who was taking care of all the relationship and making sure the deal moved forward. So we were a perfect compliment of strengths. I was locked in. Right. Okay, so fast forward ways down the line. And we closed the deal. It was wonderful. Uh, here's the message that I got now. I had spent, you know, blood, sweat and tears on this thing and felt like extreme ownership. And I was proud, like really, really personally proud of this accomplishment that this deal closed. And I knew based on the whole sales process that a large part of why it closed was because they understood how it was going to work. And that was because of what I did. That's what helped me feel proud. Sales rep terms, negotiation, incredibly valuable. I never would have been able to do anything that that person could have done. However, here's the message that I got when the deal closed from the individual sales rep. Hey, we closed the deal. We. Thanks for your work. That's it. Um, that was the entire thing. That was the entire message. That was the entirety. We never talked about it again. And from that point on, I immediately. The. The emotional tie was cut and I took. Dude, exactly what you just described A few minutes ago. I'd started taking some longer walks in the Afternoons, I started disengaging from some of the things I was doing because there was no point, because I didn't feel like I was valued. I felt underappreciated, I felt unheard, I felt unseen. And this was one of the biggest deals in the company's history. Now, it wouldn't have taken. I didn't need a giant parade or anything to, you know, champion all this stuff, but acknowledgement of the effort that was put in would have gone a million times further than that. Simple note. Right. And, uh, the individual had no idea that that was the impact that had because I didn't bring it up as well. So I didn't feel like I was in a safe place to bring up my feedback or I didn't have a way to bring it up. And that was just, you know, one example of what you were talking about there where that's. I started mailing it in after that and I ultimately left that organization not long, not that long after. But I was. There was turnover and I was it. And I was one of the most dedicated, driven people in that role. And I could have stayed in that role for a long time because it was a lot of fun. And, um, except for that environment was not inclusive, it was not supportive. I didn't feel like I could do my best work there.

Speaker A: Absolutely, Nelson, that happens to so many of us. And the thing that's so important is you weren't going to say anything. And so, so for so many organizations, they're losing their dedicated employees and not even understanding why. And it's because of those environments that you create where they want to feel valued. Uh, they want to feel like their work matters because they're coming in no matter what the role is. They're coming in and they're doing their 40 hours a lot of times more. Right. As you were talking about. Certainly I've done with different organizations and just working and really putting their best effort for it. And it's like, hey, thanks. And without the acknowledgement of. Right. Of how much work that is and what that dedication means, and then that that great employee is going to go work for one of your competitors a hundred percent.

Speaker B: Every time. Every time. And the, the difference between what I experienced and what I could have experienced.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Was very small in reality, but the impact was gigantic.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And that's, that's where I think a lot of people just overlook the opportunity every day to acknowledge, to appreciate, to support and to make it verbal, not just give the generic thanks, good work, good word for what, like that's one of my most frustrating things. People say great job. I'm like, uh, about What? Like there's 8 billion things I just did and you didn't see any of them. But you cover it up with good job.

Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, Nils, I was speaking with Misha Ann Martin not long ago. She is at work human and she leads DEI there. And one of the things that she said is leaders so often underestimate the value of acknowledgement because a lot of times, you know, employees want to be paid fairly and respected and given, you know, challenging projects and all the things. But we really underestimate the value of saying, hey, you did this thing. The specific thing. Right?

Speaker B: That's the key. The specific thing. Part one. Specific. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I really appreciate it and I, you know, I told, you know, the, the C E O or the C O or whoever about your work on this specific project. And I just want to say that I really appreciate your efforts, your leadership, whatever it is. And we don't do that enough as leaders. You know, when you said we're busy trying to, to hit these metrics, make these numbers, we don't slow down to do those small things that are not small to the employees. They matter so much in that day to day feeling of value.

Speaker B: And the interesting thing is that it's the small things that make the big things happen. Like if you, if you made it a practice to give each person on your team one piece of that very specific positive feedback. Oh, each week, just each week, just one thing. And if you can't find one thing to give somebody positive feedback on in a week of working together, probably should take a closer look at what's going on. Cause there's a million things. And the, the feeling on the employee side is always like. And it comes down to this, and I hear this in endless, endless coaching calls and conversations. Like I do all these things. Nobody ever knows what I do. And then if that evolves and is left, uh, unattended for long enough, then it be turns into, well, let's see what happens when I leave the organization and they don't have me to do these things. And they're gonna find out just how valuable I was. Right? That's the mental game that we play on the receiving end, but can be completely eliminated by the simple act of acknowledging and being specific about what it is you appreciate that the other person is doing.

Speaker A: That's so right, Nelson. Such good advice.

Speaker B: It's all right. So we, we went in deep on that piece of the definition of unique Value. And we talked about belonging in the organization and the financial and business outcomes as well. So in a couple of the elements of inclusive leadership and some of the major pillars that you noted in the book, one of them was in stronger decision making. And I want to dig into that a little bit more and talk about what inclusive leadership has to do with making decisions and how leaders should be thinking about it from an inclusive perspective.

Speaker A: Yeah. So when you think about decision making, you know, certainly I have worked, you know, and I was thinking about my. What my story would be in having that leader that was just terrible and I had to move away from. One of the issues was he would never make decisions. He would. He wouldn't do the hard thing. He wouldn't coach hard to. To grow employees. That worked for him. And so he always pushed those decisions off. It creates chaos, uncertainty, and he pushed those decisions off to another person that worked directly for him. And, you know, it's. The thing about decision making is you don't have to have all the right answers, Nils, and you don't have to have all the answers. Decisions can include lots of people, and the best decisions often do include lots of voices, lots of perspectives. But as a leader, you have to be willing to take that risk and say, okay, I've heard from everyone at the table, make sure that table is diverse. You're getting lots of different perspectives, and then go ahead and make that decision because you're instilling confidence in your employees and a sense of direction, which is so important. Right. We all want to know what our charter is, what our mission is, and that can be our overall mission. That can be a mission on a project. Right. Like what is the charter for this project? But making decisions is part of leadership. The most important thing, though, is include lots of voices, especially in those big decisions, and then be deliberate. And if, Nils, you make a decision and it's. It's not the right decision. It's okay to be vulnerable and in fact, re. Encourage that vulnerability. Right. That's part of inclusive leadership. That's part of good leadership in our society today to be able to say, you know what? I got some good information. We went in this direction, wasn't ended up not being the right way to go. We're going to back it up, try it a different way. And you know what I found? And again, this is so different from, you know, leaders of, of yesteryear that always had to have the answer and always had to have the right answer. It's okay to be vulnerable in the moment and Understand that not every decision is the right one and that's okay to back it up and go again. That, uh, allows for your employees to also take risks Right. In their role and to be okay if that decision didn't go the way they planned and to back it up and, and do it a different way. And that creates so much innovation in an organization.

Speaker B: It's so important in the, in the behavior of the leader will determine and when it comes to decisions, specifically will determine in large part the behavior when it comes to decisions of everybody on the team. That's right.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So if they, if the team sees a lot of stalling and you know, select. Only select people have input on decisions, that's exactly what they're going to do. Whether they consciously know it or not. Chances are they probably won't know that they are doing it. They just have been part of it. They've been involved in some, not involved in others, and said, well, that's just the way it is. Because we learn by observation a lot by observation. However, uh, if they are observing a fully inclusive decision making process that involves lots of different voices, careful consideration, and then the actual act of making a decision and acknowledging if it was the best decision they had based on the information at the time and if it was wrong making another one, that's okay.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: They will go and do that. So it's, it's kind of a, uh, fascinating thing that you can dramatically influence people, especially from a leadership position, without saying a word.

Speaker A: But absolutely.

Speaker B: By doing, the actions that are most appropriate in that particular case fall in a best practice. And this applies to every single principle of leadership too. Because the people who work for you, regardless of what tenure they are, where they come from, what background, how much experience they have, they will emulate your behavior. And it's, it's a big responsibility to always be making sure that you're doing things in the right way. So the decision making piece is so critical. I love that you said, like, if we made a wrong decision, who cares? Make another one. These are not, these aren't. Like, you get like 10 chips a year and each chip you have to cash in for a decision and you can only make 10. Like, no, there's not number of chips. Right. Like, let's just make the best decision we can with the information that's available. And then when new information becomes available, we start the process again and let's make a new decision.

Speaker A: That's right. Absolutely. Nils. Absolutely.

Speaker B: Jackie, it's been absolute pleasure talking with you all things. Inclusive Leadership. Very excited for your Inclusive Leadership Handbook to come out. We will include show, uh, notes. I know it's not out yet, so we'll include in the show notes and be sure to update it once it is available. Do you know, timing wise, when this might be coming out?

Speaker A: Yes, we are, uh, aiming for mid April, so we're getting close. Ooh.

Speaker B: We are getting very close. Wonderful. Well, when it's available, we'll include a link to there. It'll be available on Amazon and all the online retailers, I'm sure. And, Jackie, thank you so much for coming back and sharing all your incredible expertise and knowledge with us.

Speaker A: Thank you, Nils. It's always a pleasure to spend time with you. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: All right, take care.