354 Andy Paul Sell without selling out

Speaker A: Selling doesn't help, but Helping Sells. You're listening to Helping Sells Radio brought to you by Service Rocket Media.

Speaker B: Helping Cells. Radio is sponsored by Service Rocket. Since 2001, Service Rocket has helped users of of some of the world's top software companies configure, learn and use their products with services that Geoffrey Moore of Crossing the Chasm fame calls whole product solutions. You probably didn't realize it at the time, but you may have used one or more of these products in your work and engaged in some of these whole product solutions like learning, professional services and technical support. You may have even used Service Rocket apps that connect or enhance products like Salesforce, Jira, Confluence, Workplace, from Meta, and many more. Service Rocket wants to bring its whole product solutions capabilities to software companies like yours so you can focus on what you do best, building and selling your core product. Check them out@servicerocket.com that's servicerocket.com and when you get there, tell him Bill from Helping Sells Radio sent you. My guest today is Andy Paul. He is a sales expert extraordinaire, in my words. He's a three time author. His latest book is out February 22nd. It's called Sell Without Selling A Guide to Success on youn Own Terms. He is also a podcaster. He hosts the Sales Enablement with Andy Paul podcast and we talk about how a SaaS software company acquired his podcast. And that's a cool story. Um, he's ranked number eight on LinkedIn's top 50 global sales experts. We talked about his book and we talked the mind blown moment for me. You'll notice I went crazy in the podcast. It was so good how much of a leadership role the account executive should play when bringing in other people into the sales calls. And to be such a good leader that the sales exec, the account exec, can say to, let's say a VP who wants to swoop in or to a success manager who comes in before the deal is signed to rally them and say, okay, don't ask about this. Remember they already talked to us about that. If you want to know about this, then don't. Right? So it's like you don't want to let the customer know. You don't know anything by asking all these questions all over again with new people coming in. I just loved that part of it. Wait till you get to that part of the, uh, conversation. I really enjoyed it. Give it up for the tremendously generous and helpful Andy Paul. I can't wait to talk to you about your book. It's just out February 22nd. It's called selling. Uh, Andy, when you have a podcast, you really have to learn how to talk.

Speaker A: And days is very hard. I can empathize.

Speaker B: Indeed. So your book is called Sell without Selling, a guide to success on your own terms. And look, first thing I noticed before we talk about your book is you're also a podcaster. And when I was researching you, I noticed that a software company had bought your podcast.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And then it was in your book a little bit like, whoa, wait a minute, there's something here. So I have to start with that. Why did a software company acquire your podcast?

Speaker A: Well, I think you have to ask them, I think, but I think for two reasons. One is we have large archive of episodes which are very searchable. It's with transcripts and so on. So from an SEO perspective, that's, um, very valuable. I think, more importantly, it's just the thought leadership company that's in the sales space, Revenue IO, formerly Ring DNA, um, in the sales space. And that they appreciate the thought leadership that we're creating with the podcast and LinkedIn and so on, that help, um, elevate their brand and their mission as they saw in the world, to try to improve, uh, sellers. So, yeah, I think that was. If I can speak for them, I'd say those are the two motivations.

Speaker B: And I can't help but make a connection. And maybe I'm overdoing it. But your philosophy of which is incog. Which is simpatico with Helping Sales radio. I can't help but think they're selling without selling out by adding, let's say, a sales podcast or some kind of a topic like that that's not direct selling, but it's helping their customers come to them.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think absolutely. And so Howard Brown is The founder and CEO of Revenue I.O. is a, uh, Ph.D. psychologist. He's very much in tune with the philosophy that I talk about and not this book, previous books as well, and my LinkedIn activity and the podcast in terms of what he sees as a vision for how sellers should sell and interact with their buyers. So, yeah, so there's a lot of alignment philosophically there as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, gotcha. Okay, so, um, one of the things that struck me in the early part of your book was the phrase you used that you want people. Well, the book is about turning your back on this salesy attitude, the salesy behavior. Right. People. I think you use the word cringe. People cringe when they. Right. So, um, is that when you say without selling out, are you talking about don't be cringe worthy, don't be the salesperson who acts like a salesperson.

Speaker A: Yeah. Don't be the stereotype. Right. And uh, I think people sort of default into that. They think that not only are they trained to act that way, but even if they weren't trained to act that way, I think people think that they have to act that way in order to sell something.

Speaker B: Um, that's interesting. People think they have to act that way. Sure.

Speaker A: They think that, that maybe just from popular culture or they see other sales sellers that they know. But we certainly encourage sellers to sort of act that way. And there's reason it's like to say the stereotype that we hold of sellers is at the same time unfair and deserved. So uh, right. As we contributed to that and not necessarily that people are motivated or act as motivations to be pushy and sleazy and self centered in the approach to buyers, but certainly encouraged oftentimes to be that way. And so my belief is that we take that set of behaviors which we all sort of know, and we're beginning to catalog some of those ourselves. But we experience it. You experience it every day. I experience it every day. We see in emails and so on. My favorite story is somebody that contacted me on LinkedIn, um, sometime during the pandemic last year or two, direct message on LinkedIn on LinkedIn and said, I was just looking at your profile and I think that you'd be a good candidate to start a podcast. It's like, okay, uh, hey guy, if you look at my profile, you know, at that time you had over 800 episodes.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And it's like if you'd spent just 10 seconds doing what you said you're going to do. And it was one of the things where I felt compelled to respond. Usually I just delete. Right. So I respond, I said, you said, you're on my profile. Take 15 seconds. You could have seen that not only am I not a candy starter podcast, I've had one for five years or six years at that point and um, nearly a thousand episodes. And he wrote back and said, yeah, I just don't have time for that.

Speaker B: So I have a similar story. Um, uh, one of the things I do is help sell a learning management system, but m a niche within that niche. Right. So it's a very small subset of those software products. And so three different times in the last maybe two years a direct competitor within that small niche.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Has reached out to me on LinkedIn and says, you know, you could really use some customer education. And, and I don't. I, ah. In that small little niche, I am known. Right, Right. So because it's a small niche, which is why I've known. Right. So it's like same thing, one second. And I, I didn't reply because, you know what I want to type is do you know who you're dealing with?

Speaker A: And, But I know that always sounds, always sounds wrong. Right.

Speaker B: When you say that I couldn't do it. But you're right that one second, which is kind of what your whole book is about. It's like focus on them, not you.

Speaker A: Mhm. And it's not hard. And so I make the case in the book that we could today go cold turkey on salesy behaviors. We could just decide, look, uh, let's just stop. There's no value to the buyer, has no value to you as a seller. And if we just stopped, everywhere in the world the exhibits these types of behavior. Just stop. M. They'd be no worse off than they are today.

Speaker B: I have to believe nobody believes that. Not nobody. But what do people say when you tell them that?

Speaker A: Well, they all agree so far.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: But they just, I think, can't imagine an environment or a scenario where that would be allowed to happen.

Speaker B: Oh, that's the right answer. Probably allowed. So we all believe it in our hearts. But if we're going out, we're worried about our VP of sales not believing it or I don't believe it's going to work or I won't be able to get the conversion to the next step in my sales process. Andy.

Speaker A: Right. So embedded in our psychology about selling. Is that a question I've been asked a lot as I go talk on a lot of podcasts to help promote the launch of the book? Is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, I love this book, but what's am I gonna say if they have, you know, they've got quotas that meet, they gotta hit target. It's like, yeah, um, well, this is how you get there faster.

Speaker B: Ah, okay, okay.

Speaker A: Ah. So you think that in order to sell something that betrays this belief on the part of people that to sell something you gotta be pushy, you gotta be salesy. Right. How can you hit your number if you can't be pushy and salesy? And it's like, well, yeah, just by being a good human being and going through the four pillars of selling and I talk about is actually what you're doing is you're going to enable your buyer to reach a point of Making decision faster than if you do it the other way.

Speaker B: So then I'm thinking of one of those special operations mantras, which is slow is smooth and smooth is fast. So I wonder if there's something similar here where it feels like if, uh. So is that right, you think?

Speaker A: Well, that's possibly. Yeah, I mean, I think that. So what I talk about in the book is the four pillars of selling in connection, curiosity, understanding and generosity. And there's sort of milestones associated with that is if you are the sort of feed on each other, uh, if you are the first to establish the real connection with the buyer, you'll be the first to be able to deploy your curiosity to start to understand what's most important to them. What are the things that most important things that they're trying to achieve and they're trying to accomplish. And then you understand what value you need to provide to them to help them achieve what's most important to them. If you're able to be the first to do that, it's not by going fast, it's by being intentional. And how you establish the connections intentional, how you establish the trust is that the net result would be, is. Yeah. The buyer will reach a point of making decision about you faster than they would. If you're doing it the other way or faster than dealing with your competitors, they're doing it the other way.

Speaker B: And it reminds me of that chart in your book. It's chapter two or three where you have the, these two columns and you say there's the selling out. Okay. Yes, the selling out things, which is what we're doing wrong. Right. And there's the selling in. And so one of the ones that strike me based on what you're saying is selling out is doing a pitch and selling in is having a conversation.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And what I'm hearing from you is in your four pillars is like, if I'm curious and I'm making a connection, I'm probably just talking and listening.

Speaker A: I'm interested in them.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: How do you make yourself interesting?

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: I mean, this is pretty widely researched. How do you make yourself interesting? Be interested in somebody else.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Right. So you have a choice. Yeah. You can connect with a potential buyer. And hey, every day on, um, LinkedIn other places, I see people talking about how to perfect your pitch. Right. Your 30 second elevator pitch or whatever. How about perfecting asking that first question instead?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Start the conversation. I mean, it's. Yeah, they'll get around to asking, uh, about you at some point, but I haven't Booked this idea that you should be able to. And this is, give you a little drill to practice. I call it the ask five rule. So can you ask five questions of the buyer before you have to say something about yourself?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, that's genius. So.

Speaker A: And you can practice this in social settings, but. And it's the same skill. I mean, you want to do this in real life as you meet somebody new, do you. First thing, you meet somebody in a social setting. Back to school night. You never met this other parent. It's like, uh, let me talk about myself for the next 30 seconds.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Is that how you lead? Does anybody do that? Oh, John. Hi, I'm Andy. Uh, yeah, Let me tell you what I do. It's like, no, you would never do that. Right. You'd be interested in the other person. Well, you know, you just moved to this area. Where'd you guys move from? You know, you'd ask questions. You want to learn about them. So you can practice this, you know, on, let's say, in social settings, then bring it to businesses. Be curious and interested in them first and go ahead. I'm sorry.

Speaker B: Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I just. I'm just, like, thinking of. Of the. If I'm given advice to be curious in a, uh, conversation. Okay, I get it. But when you say, well, how about this? Just ask five questions before you say anything. I'm like, oh, I can do that. Because sometimes I have a nervous condition when I go to a party and I don't want to talk. I just ask questions so I don't have to talk.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: And I'm not doing it the way you're suggesting. And yet maybe I am.

Speaker A: Well, um, it's the introvert's edge, really. I'm sort of introverted in social settings and, uh, naturally curious. I want to learn about people. So, yeah, yeah, I'll ask questions. I'll default to questions, and that's fine. But it's the habit to get into that you can develop, because if you have a sincere interest in somebody else, and again, you make yourself interesting, they want to learn more about you. They want to learn more about what you're doing. Yeah. And you can also reveal a lot about what you do through the questions you ask. And I give examples in the book. Uh, but it's, you know, I call it the ask, don't tell rule, which is instead of saying, look, we have this feature abc. We think it'd be really useful for you. It's got these features. You say, um, so what Would the impact be if you could do abc? Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Okay. Right.

Speaker A: Would you say, would you ask about ABC if you couldn't do abc? Of course not. So you've just told communicate to the buyer. This is something we do, but you put in the context. Well, tell me what the impact would be on your business if you could do this as an example. Right. Otherwise you could frame the question. But it's this idea of using questions to communicate information. That's a better way to engage people.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because how many times are we in sales experiences where it's just like in your chart. It's the pitch, pitch, pitch. And you know, the seven habits. I joke about this. The seven habits of highly effective people. Book habit. Four is. I think it's four, seek first to understand. Right. That one. I kind of think everybody skipped that chapter. I joke about it.

Speaker A: We're also self interested. Uh, okay, well, so if you think your job in sales is to go out and persuade the buyer to buy your product, you don't really care whether you understand them or not. Your mission is to go persuade them to buy your product. Whether you understand them or not is secondary. You need to persuade them to buy your product. But if you think your job is instead is to listen to your buyer, to understand what's most important to them and then help them get that.

Speaker B: Uh, that's it.

Speaker A: Then you take a different set of actions. Understanding becomes very important because understanding becomes a milepost that you have to get to in order to take the next step.

Speaker B: So when you. Okay, obviously there's this barrier. We think our job is to persuade someone to buy. That's what we think. And so we have to change our mind. And so when you work with people on this.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, what I'm hearing it now, it's very simple to me. It's like ask five questions before you ask, before you say something. And then for connection.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Okay. And then I heard flip your tell to a question. So don't say you could use this. Say what would happen if you. That seems simple. Do people get that when they learn that from you and they can just go for it or they need help. Is there a mindset that. What's the blocker?

Speaker A: Um. Decades of oral tradition about sales and how it gets passed down from generation to generation, how they get trained. This is a more natural way of acting. It's a line. The point I make in the book is these sales of behaviors that we resist, that we react to negatively. These are all learned behaviors.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.

Speaker A: And we don't we're not this way. Naturally, as human beings, we are though naturally wired to want to connect with people. We're naturally curious. We use our curiosity to navigate the unfamiliar world around us and unfamiliar settings and situations like we get to with prospects. Uh, we're wired to want to understand the world around us and the people we're dealing with. And this is the heart of the empathy that we develop for our buyers. And we're wired to be generous and wired to give. And I talk about in the book is that selling really is, when you look at it, really is this ultimate act of generosity. Because if you deconstruct that statement I said before. So our job is to go out and listen to the buyer. That's a generous act. Right. Understand the things that are most important to them, generous, and then work with them to help them get that generous. Selling is a generous act.

Speaker B: Yes. And yet if I go back to that chart of yours, like one example is, um, focus on it. Selling out is focus on your process. And then the selling in is focus on the person.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: And so you just described it. If I'm good at this, this is really my job. And what I'm naturally I should be interested in the person, you know, and empathy. And yet I got to get to the next step of my process, Andy, you know.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, but the next step of your process isn't the buyer's process.

Speaker B: Okay? Yes, but I have a CRM, Andy, and it tells me I have to. I mean, m. I'm kidding.

Speaker A: But the fact that it bears no semblance to reality is beside the point. Yeah. We're stuck in these paradigms with the sales process that the way it's laid out, and even before CRM existed, it was laid out the exact same way. These are linear stage based processes that we go from A to B and really kind of harmful to sellers. Because what you're selling to sellers is. Okay, let's look at the stage called discovery. This is when we ask the questions, uh, and it's like, well, no, I'm going to ask questions every time I interact with the buyer throughout the entire process. Because the buyer is going to continue to evolve their understanding of what their needs are and their requirements are and the outcomes they could potentially put, potentially achieve. But if I put my discovery into that little box and then didn't go back and revisit it or stay current, um, I'm not working with the buyer looking at the same target anymore.

Speaker B: Right. You know, uh, in a LinkedIn post, it was some, I don't know who it was but they said our sales processes are so not customer focused because everything we want to do to qualify a buyer has nothing to do with what the buyer wants. It's all filling out the medicine methodology and the Bant methodology. And the joke is I can't do anything else until I find out from you who the decision maker is and who's the four stakeholders. And it's like this is true, right? Oh yeah, we're just like trying to make the customer tell me what their budget is.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, I um, know the thing is some of this information is, is you have to earn the right to get it.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Right. So yeah, I can go this, I think this is a problem that sellers encounter all the time is that hey, I'm coming out, I'm going to ask you these questions, I'm going to do my discovery. But the discovery becomes more like checking boxes on a uh, checklist. Right. It's like a survey.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: As opposed to let's engage in a conversation so I can really understand, you know, your requirements. Really understand. And not only that, help you better understand your requirements. Right. Because I'm just not here to collect information, I'm here to help you as well. Right. Um, the reason that buyers want and need to talk to sellers is if they're a self aware organization that wants to make a good decision is they need differing viewpoints, they need new information. Uh, trouble with everybody within an organization, and this has been studied in the past, is this idea of strong ties versus weak ties is when you're working together people, you develop these strong ties. The information you know tends to become homogenized. Right. It becomes m redundant. We all know the same things. So we're out looking at making a decision to make some sort of change in our business. We all know the same information. How's that help us? We need somebody that knows something different. It's a different perspective to help us think differently or more broadly, more deeply about what we're doing. Well, that's the role of a salesperson.

Speaker B: So then I want to go back to that other rule, the second rule you mentioned which was don't tell, don't m tell, ask, don't tell. Okay. Um, because I'm going to go back to your chart. I mean your turn is so good because it like makes the whole rest of the book easy to digest to me. And so the ask don't tell rule one of your selling out is selling products.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Versus selling outcomes.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: M And so the example you gave was don't tell them you think you might need this feature. Ask what would happen if you achieve this. I guess outcome. Right. So I don't think we are good enough as salespeople to get to outcome selling for some reason.

Speaker A: Uh, well, it depends. There's levels of complexity of that. Right. But the example I gave it the basic, which is sort of an apocryphal tale, but it actually originated I think in 1928. Then copywriter in New York City came up with this. But was people aren't looking to m buy drills, they're looking to buy holes.

Speaker B: Okay. Yes, yes.

Speaker A: Right. So that's the easiest example for everybody to sort of conceptualize and visualize is. Yeah. When you're talking to a buyer, what do they buy? They're not buying your product. They're buying a vision of what success looks like using your product.

Speaker B: Okay. Yep.

Speaker A: It's a whole part of the book written about how to help work with the buyer to create this vision of success. But this is what they buy. So when you buy something, you're going to buy a new car. Are you buying a car?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: You're buying your vision of what it looks like to drive that car. Drive that car on a road trip, drive it along the coast, top down and the wind blowing through your hair or whatever. That's what we buy. So yeah, if you're just focused on my product has this features and it does these things that's like uh, yeah, they already know that. They don't care. Buyer doesn't care. They know that. Tell them something they don't know. Ask them something they don't know or

Speaker B: like what you just said, co create the vision of success. Right. Okay. So I want to transition to this because a lot of people who listen to this show are in post sale roles. So they have to do the delivery.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So one of the, one of the things they do all the time is resell the product after it was sold because uh, you know, we don't. Okay, so everyone knows.

Speaker A: Well, but no, let's dig into that though because this is interesting is. Yeah. A lot of times the finger gets pointed at the seller to say what did you sell, man? I mean, come on.

Speaker B: We blame them, of course.

Speaker A: Right. But think about it from this perspective is let's say you're selling a product in a competitive situation. The buyers are talking to six vendors and so on. When they make their decision, what do they think they've bought? What they've done is they've bought the Best features of all the six. Right. They've aggregated everything in their mind because they've learned a lot. They're talking to a lot of people. It's hard to keep it all straight in their mind. What they've bought is sort of like an aggregation of the best features of all, everything they've talked to.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: This happens a lot. So it's really the job of either the seller or success, depending on your organization. Uh, and I wrote about this in my second book is what I call sort of the most important sales call, which is after you get the order, you have to sit with the buyer, have a call with the buyer, or sit with the buyer and say, look, we just want to review this. Uh, this is what your requirements were. Right. This is what we proposed, and this is why we proposed it. This is what you're going to get, and this is when you're going to get it. And you just go through that 15, 20 minutes. Just want to recap that. Because you do have to reset expectations because human nature is. They think they're buying sort of the best of everything they sort of looked at, and it's not always clear to them exactly what they're getting.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: So it's not always. It's not. The product was necessarily oversold. It's easy to point the finger at the salesperson. But you've got buyers at the heart of something that's sort of confusing to some degree.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, it would be certainly acceptable and understandable that they weren't completely clear about what they were getting from whom. So somebody has to take the responsibility, whether it's a seller or success, and say, let's make sure we're all on the same page here.

Speaker B: Okay. Which is why when in your book, this, Making the Vision together, I, uh, think a lot of software companies struggle with this because that vision sometimes doesn't get created until it gets to the success team. Because now the success team says, now let's build your success plan. Right. That's very common. And it's almost like it's. Well, not too late, but it's like almost. It's some sense starting over.

Speaker A: Well, it's some sense you've sort of damaged the relationship a little bit because the buyers got a certain set of expectations, which, even though they may have been misguided, uh, is. They still have them. Right. That's the perception they have. That's why it's so important. I said immediately after order, especially with anything with any complexity is you have to have this call with the buyer and just sort of make sure they get it. And otherwise, yeah, you get this whole thing. It's like, wait, weren't we promised this? Well, no, no, look here on the spec or the final proposal, whatever that's not included, they're gonna be disappointed. They're not gonna say, oh, yeah, right, my bad. They're gonna say, uh, no, I think that was part of the deal. And so avoidable. The thing is, a lot of managers don't like to do that because they're afraid the customer will change their mind. Right. They're afraid of, uh, triggering buyer's remorse. And A, I think that's completely overblown. And B, if you do a good enough job co creating this value of vision of success for the buyer, the odds of buyer remorse striking are pretty low.

Speaker B: You know, there's another element too, where if I'm the success team and I'm. And I. Let's say, let's start with our success plan. Now, the customer thinks, well, wait a minute, I just told all that stuff to Sally. Right. And so why are you asking me? It's like you typing your number into the 800 number and then they ask you for your account number.

Speaker A: And that's hugely important. This is why you should ideally be involving success in the presale.

Speaker B: Okay, I was going to ask.

Speaker A: Okay, yeah, because I've got a. I have a rule of thumb. Okay, Rule of thumb, which is your odds of winning a piece of business are sort of in inverse proportion to the number of times you make the customer repeat their story.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: So, uh, whether it's you have success, do it, or hey, I bring in my immediate manager. What do they want to do? Well, tell me about you. What's important to you? It's like, well, no, no, we've covered that already. And then you bring in the director level person. So tell me again about you. Right? And you see, it's like by the time you do, if you're bringing a VP level, it's like, oh, my God, this is the fifth time we've had to say this. Yeah, you guys are out of here. I mean, it's, it is problematic. So as, as an account manager, account executive, you have to manage that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And say, and say, okay, you're going to come on the call. Here's what you can't talk about. Do not ask about this. We understand this. If you don't understand this, Mr. VP, let me explain it to you right now.

Speaker B: Okay, I like what you just said there. I had not thought of this. Where the account executive has to be such a strong leader, should be saying to the sales engineer and the VP who wants to swoop in and, you know, you have to say, don't ask about this, don't ask. That's. I never thought of that.

Speaker A: Or if you are, if you think you have to ask about this, then yeah, just don't come.

Speaker B: Oh, just don't come. Right, or ask me afterwards or something.

Speaker A: Yeah. I used to exclude certain people from meetings that they want to be in just because that reason because I couldn't trust them to stick to the script.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, this is, this is, this is, you know, that, that gift for the mind blown. You know, I feel like, you know, it all comes down to leadership. The solution to every problem is leadership. You know, quote, whatever. Uh, this is powerful to me because then the AE is really in charge of that customer, puts the customer's needs first. Don't repeat, don't ask. We've already covered all this.

Speaker A: Uh, I mean, think about, I've written about this. I mean, selling is sort of the ultimate form of leadership, right? Because you can't command the buyer to follow you. You have to inspire the buyer to follow your lead through the way that you interact with them. So, yeah, if you're not sort of having this leadership perspective on your role as a seller, then you're sort of missing out on one angle. But then, yeah, it's your thing, right. And as I write about in the book, no one cares about your success as much as you do. And so you have to be responsible for it. So, yeah, if there's only a senior level person who wants to come in and meet the customer, if you can't feel comfortable that they're going to stick to the script, that they're not going to ask about something you don't want asked about. You have to be comfortable. You have the knowledge and understanding enough to be able to convey that to them. Then, yeah, just say no. Change the meeting times to the point they're not available. I mean, do what you have to do. This is up to you. They could come in. I've, you know, hadn't had deals that had to recover after a meeting with somebody, a senior person came in that sort of stirred the waters in a way that wasn't helpful.

Speaker B: I can be honest when I say I've been in sales, uh, calls where I brought people in and they've started asking questions that I already knew the answer to and had gone through with the customer but hadn't had the conversation ahead of time. And I was just. In my head, I'm just like, uh, please don't ask, please be quiet. And of course I'm beating myself up over it. And if only I had known. Now that I talk to you, it's like, uh, I'm just. This is great.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's just. And it's. You think about it again from the buyer's perspective is, you know, with. My rule of thumb is, you know, they're saying, look, every time I invest time, my time and attention in you, I need a return on that time and attention. Spending time repeating myself isn't useful in that regard. Right. That's wasted time for me.

Speaker B: And if I go back to your four pillars, to me, this fall. To you correct me, this falls under your understanding pillar to some extent. Because. Okay, so then the customers can feel like, oh, they understand me because they're not letting, um, maybe the customer doesn't really know. Someone's not going to ask something. But when you bring in new people, oh my gosh, these new people didn't ask me all these things. They're saying phrases. The VP says phrases that I told my ae. So he must have told her, you

Speaker A: know, well, here's what happens. Often the mind of the customer when, yeah. A senior person comes in and asks the same question that the seller has already asked and seller thinks they have an understanding of is the buyer's instinct is, oh, they don't trust the salesperson because they feel they have to ask

Speaker B: this question again or attend, for that matter.

Speaker A: Yeah, but I mean, it's. With that repetitive question, it's like, oh, they don't trust them. They didn't trust the answer they got from the salesperson.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And yet you as a seller is the reason the customer is going to make the decision to buy from you. So, yeah. You don't get yourself undermined intentionally, unintentionally by someone else in the call. You have to be in charge of this as much as you can. Uh, I mean, there's sometimes, obviously it's out of your control. So CEO says, I'm going to come to your customer. Of course they're going to come to your customer. Right, of course. But you're going to spend as much time as you can managing up to set expectations, make sure they understand the situation, agree on a script of what's going to happen, what they'll ask about, and at that point, it's gonna be out of your control.

Speaker B: So this to me also adds an extra layer, a Critical extra layer of prep for that call.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, like, maybe we should have a separate meeting ahead of time and go through it all. Cause you said approve the script, the talking points, what to say, what not to say, what we've already been through.

Speaker A: I mean, the good leader will ask.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: The good seller will offer and sort of insist on it. But a good vp, a good CEO, is going to ask. Right.

Speaker B: Because they want to be prepared.

Speaker A: What can I do, uh, to help us make progress in this deal today? But unfortunately, some leaders want to come in and just be the savior when

Speaker B: nothing needs to be saved.

Speaker A: When nothing needs to be saved. But they won't be the hero. Right? So I'm spending my time. This is a hero call. I'm going to swing for the fences like. No, it's not. We need. I just need you to show up and make nice and then say the right things and go away.

Speaker B: Andy. I mean, I can't believe. It's almost like, how come I didn't. Where was this in my life 10 years ago, this idea, uh. Because the leadership that required from a sales professional is staggering if you looking through it in this lens.

Speaker A: Yeah, but it's. That's.

Speaker B: But it's normal to you.

Speaker A: It's normal. That's the right way. Again, think about. We're not leading in terms of leading on your buyers, but you're in a leadership position relative to your buyers is a great way to look at it. You're not bossing them, you're inspiring them. You're creating a, uh, shared vision that people want to march to. That's creating this vision of success. Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. This is sort of my last question, and I'm just blown away by this. Um, what's the between the lines message in the book? Sort of like, I think the message is help figure out, learn what the customer wants, help them get it. To me, that's like the whole book. But what's the between the lines that people don't pick up on that it's

Speaker A: all about the way the buyer experiences you. Right. At the end of the day, the buyer's decision is going to be more about their experience working with you to go through their process than your product. Because especially in the software world, the differences between products are negligible.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Ah. And if somebody has something that's unique and give them 90 days and somebody else will have it. So the barriers to entry pretty small. So if you're in a competitive space, you know, the example like to use just. It's like conversational intelligence tools, which, you know, two years ago, maybe they're 10 or 12, and now there's three or four times that number. How do you decide? Excuse me? How do you decide?

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Ultimately you're going to decide based on your experience as the buyer working with that seller.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: So that's really what we're talking about. It's like, how do we create winning buying experiences for the buyer through how we interact with them and how do we help them navigate this process they're going through?

Speaker B: And you know, the way you say that makes me think of the rare moments when I was really good at this and sort of by accident. Uh, and I've had potential customers and customers say things to me like, you were so helpful, I'm buying from you. Right. And other salespeople ignore me or they, you know, they fill out my forms or they.

Speaker A: Well, the one I talk about. Yeah, the one I talk. The example I give in the book is, deal, big deal, I won. That really had no business winning is the buyer said, you're the only one that made me feel understood.

Speaker B: Okay, well, that's good.

Speaker A: That's what you want, right? You want the buyer to feel understood, heard and understood.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: That comes from you.

Speaker B: You do that.

Speaker A: You're on the inside track.

Speaker B: So really quick, I know I had to let you go, but it's sort of like, uh, I've been involved in a selling process where we wanted to sell a managed service, like a subscription offering, but the customer was saying, yeah, but we want to acquire project based work. Right. So it's more predictable for us. Project, it's over. And we wanted to sell this and it's like we weren't listening to each other. It was a two way street. Right. Because I think we weren't doing. What you were doing was like, uh, making the customer feel understood. Because we were saying, no, no, no, no, no. You need a managed service. It's more predictable for your expense forecasting. It'll be better. We won't have to build you. But I only want the project based work. Right?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. So if you think about it, if you want to help shape the buyer's thinking, you first have to understand. Because then if you do, then it's like, okay, this is something we're doing together. Have you thought about this? But if you're saying that prior to then you're just resorting to, I'm just trying to persuade you to see my point of view. And that's, uh, salesy and cringeworthy and they don't want that.

Speaker B: Oh, I see. Because I think we thought we were trying to help them see a certain point of view and I think we were executing on the persuasion is what I think we were doing.

Speaker A: Whereas you reach that common ground of understanding.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Then we say, okay, well, have you thought about this, though? You thought what the trade off might be? I, uh, give, uh, six types of questions in the book. Yeah. Trade off question, thought about doing XYZ instead of abc. And what would the impact be on you if you could do that, then you can start addressing it. Because I'm not debating what's important to you. Right. Because I'm not gonna. I can't persuade you that that's not important to you. That's important to you. Great. Now we've established this common ground, Is there a way to say how can we respond to this? Right.

Speaker B: And create that vision together on how that the most important thing they keep bringing up and caring about, how do we solve that together?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Well, you know, my takeaway is it's all about how the buyer experiences you.

Speaker A: Yes, it is, Andy.

Speaker B: Yeah. So your book is called sell without selling, A guide to success on your own terms. Andy, how would you like people to get to know you and your work and where would you like them to go?

Speaker A: Sure. So, well, first of all, if they want the book, Amazon anywhere you buy books. Uh, if you do buy it and read it, please leave us a review. Love your feedback on that. Um, yeah, come to my website, andypaul.com okay. And we've got some resources there. If you buy the book, we've got some bonuses for people that buy the book. Um, follow me on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn. Uh, pretty active over there and yeah, publishing a lot of content related to the book and begin to extend the book as well. So, yeah, those places.

Speaker B: Okay. I'll put links to your book, to your website and to LinkedIn in the show. Notes. Andy, this was a pleasure. Thanks for being on the show. Thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, great to meet you.

Speaker B: Thanks for tuning in to the show. Don't Forget to visit helpingsells.substack.com and subscribe with your email so you never miss an episode. We won't give your email to anyone else. We will just use it to communicate with you directly and share things with you that we think are helpful and that you might think are helpful too. Subscribe@handingsells.substack.com and I have have to give a few shout outs to friends of the podcast to our friends at Customer Success Leadership Network. If you believe customer success is a team sport and that it should be part of everyone's job that you should join your new friends@customersuccessnetwork.com to my good friends at Business of Software who have built an incredible and welcoming community. They welcome me and welcoming community of SaaS leaders to help you build a better software company with carefully curated online conferences and masterclasses. The content is just excellent. Best in the business. Go check them out@businessofsoftware.org that's businessofsoftware.org to my friends at Strategizer who have helped me innovate my business model more than one time. Actually uh, also design my value propositions that actually help customers and set me on the path to build an incredible and invincible company. Check out strategizer.com that's S T R A T E G y z e r.com that's strategizer.com and learn how they can help you do the same. Okay, that's it. Thanks for being Being part of helping sells radio. Your support means a lot and it keeps us going and until we are together again, go help a customer.