The Strategic Plan for Second-Generation Leaders Wanting To Buy and Grow a Family Business

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Growth plus Exit podcast where owners of privately held middle market companies talk about founding, scaling and exiting their businesses successfully. Learn how to maximize and monetize your business on your own terms. Let's get started.

Speaker A: Hello, I'm Helena Heather Bennett, your host for the Growth plus Exit podcast featuring middle market business owners talking about founding, growing, scaling and exiting their businesses on their own terms. Past guests include Kelly Schrod, John Fairclough, and Andy Crestadino. To learn more about these guests, listen to their episodes on Spotify, Apple, Audible and all of the platforms that the Growth plus Exit podcast is on. This episode is brought to you by Newport, LLC, a team of seasoned C suite executives helping CEOs and business owners of privately held companies grow de risk and exit their businesses successfully. Newport LLC is the winner of the prestigious Inc. Magazine Power Partner Award, a list of elite B2B companies from across the globe. To see the entire list, visit inc.com powerpartnerawards to learn more about Newport, visit us@newportllc.com or of course, find us on LinkedIn. Before introducing today's guests, I would like to thank John Tirando and Fred Fink for introducing us. You can find John and Fred on LinkedIn or the Newport website. Today's guest is Jeff Aplin. Jeff Aplin is the CEO of Aplin, a national Canadian staffing firm recognized as a Platinum member of Canada's Best Managed Companies. He previously worked as a management consultant with Deloitte, specializing in strategy and operations, and holds an MBA from the University of Calgary along with a Certified Management Consulting designation. Jeff is the recipient of the Business in Calgary Leaders Award and a Prairies finalist for the EY Entrepreneur of the Year. Jeff, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you, Heather.

Speaker A: So let's get right to it. How did you get started? Where did Applin come from? What was the beginning of this business?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the, uh, the genesis of the business is it was a family business. So it was founded by my father in the house that I grew up in in Edmonton, Alberta, uh, back in 1975. Uh, so, yeah, it was not a child prodigy. It was, um, uh, my dad at the time, uh, found himself, um, unemployed and he'd always wanted to start a business. So he thought, well, if I start one now and I fail it, you know, all other things being equal. So it was all upside. And that's really when he started the business. And it started off as a, a, uh, staffing business for mainframe, uh, computer job categories like punch card, uh, operators and, and Systems, uh, analysts and programmers and stuff for the large mainframe IBM iron kind of computers at that time. Uh, so I really grew up around the business and um, and then after, after business school, uh as you mentioned, I, I was fortunate to get recruited by Deloitte Consulting and had a, a great um, experience there. And then afterwards, after that I was kind of looking for a business to get into for myself and ah, dad said uh, son, why don't want to come work for me? And I said the reason is dad, because I love you and I want to keep loving you. And uh, you know, I'm not sure me working for you is the best idea for our family. Um, but with that said I said you know, if there's an opportunity to transition the business, I mean I've moved heaven and earth for that. And he said well let me think about it. And he thought about it for about six months and um, after that we started really talking about it, about the possibility to transition the business uh, really intergenerationally. And uh, we worked out a plan for me to kind of buy shares over the, over time which, which we did. So really for, for me as a second generation I bought the business from my dad um, over about a ten year period. Um, so that, that's really how I ended up owning uh, it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so that's a very interesting, very thoughtful and professional way to do a succession plan. Um, shows a lot of foresight both your, your dad's, you know, behalf. It's um. So during those 10 years what was bumpy about that process or what did you learn that you would recommend for other families who, who want to do successful succession to the next generation?

Speaker B: Uh, absolutely. I mean there's a, there's a rich um, a lot of lessons and a lot of experience there for sure on things to do and not to do. And I think one of the things uh, I think I'm most proud about is we pretty early on realized and were aware that we needed a communication system to, to make it work kind of in the family dynamics as well as, you know, kind of as business partners. And uh, so what we did is we, we ended up with the system which was just the hats. Like you know on Wednesday we're going to have a business partner meeting so we'll put our business partner hat on. But on Saturday the family barbecue were family. We're father and son. And you know, if it was like look after the barbecue let's go for a walk down to the lake and have a business meeting. We'll we'll consciously do that afterwards. And we were very aware of that. And I give my, my dad a ton of credit at the time as a, as a founder, a passionate founder, um, for really respecting that, uh, so that we could balance and make it work as a family, but also in the business arena because that's not easy. And I think we, you know, there's so many examples where uh, you know, families working together, business families, it can really damage the family or relationships and the business. Um, there's, there's all kinds of sort of tragic stories about that unfortunately. So yeah, that was, that was something that we did and I think, you know, that's just learned from experience on things that, you know, uh, having, having a meal together and saying like, you know, what's going on in Toronto, like we're off budget there, whatever. And I'm like, can you pass the potatoes or what? You know, so, so those are. We kind of became aware that we needed a communication system and uh, that worked really well in our case.

Speaker A: I love that. Communication is such an important part of that. There's, there's a great book, um, I'm actually talking to that author later today called Every Family's Business, where it talks about the 12 things you need to discuss every year.

Speaker B: That's Tom Dean's, right?

Speaker A: Oh, you know Tom. Okay, excellent. All right.

Speaker B: I've read that book and I've actually heard Tom, uh, speak at some point a long time ago.

Speaker A: So yeah, I, I have a one on one call with him later today, so I'll tell him that you, you're, you uh, read his book.

Speaker B: It's a great read. But yeah, you know that, that's also, I think, to your, your question, Heather, like there was a lot of uh, education effort over a sustained period of time to say, you know, what, what, what can we do to take as individuals in a family and in a business to make it work and put the company interests first, um, as best we can and keep that eye on the prize of growing the business. Um, and put that as the guiding light and reading that book and organizations that support families doing business together, um, and all the advisors. I mean there's, there's a whole community that's there that supports that. That's very valuable from our experience.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And okay, so, so the keys are being handed over. You've done your 10 years of buying the business. What changed from when your dad was even a part owner to you wholly owning the business?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, uh, um, we, we changed, uh, you know, we Tried to maintain our, you know, being faithful to our kind of our core values, um, and, and core purpose. But really we had to change almost everything operationally and strategically about the business. I mean, it's a, you know, obviously things change over, over the years and um, you know, every business has a life cycle and, and you know, quite frankly, you know, at that time it was clear to me that the, the business was in a sort of a downward spiral, uh, because it had held on to a lot of business practices, um, that. That really no longer were going to scale up the business going forward. So I used to call them time bombs where I would kind of seek them out or I'd become aware of them and say, gee, that's, that's not good. Like I'm gonna have to diffuse that bomb or else it's gonna go off and uh, I need to get rid of that or I need to change out those people or whatever the case may be. So really after, you know, um, I acquired the business and we did the full legal change of control and all that stuff, then at that point I realized we needed to change our strategy from really a, uh, placement agency, which was transactional, to more of a scalable repeatable model based on reoccurring revenue in temporary and contract billable hours. So we went from really having zero recurring revenue to now we're about 75% of our, you know, 110 million annual revenue is, is reoccurring in the form of temporary and contract billable hours. So that was really a reimagining of the business model, uh, and starting from scratch and just kind of, uh, you know, uh, replacing that with. With a model that's going to push the business forward and, and have a healthy company, you know, into the future. Um, so there, there's a lot of, lot of, lot of changes, a lot of, um, a lot of grind, a lot of effort to kind of undo things that needed to be dealt with and addressed that were legacy but no longer serve the business and uh, and kind of deal with those and have the courage to do that and then, and then, you know, re. Replace it and reimagine it with um, a model that's going to thrive going forward.

Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. And so doing all this. So if you're running the business, how are you choosing who's going to help you do that? I would imagine that you, you had to hire some people to, to help you move, um, the business in the right direction because you can't, uh, diffuse all those risks by yourself.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And yeah, absolutely. I mean we've been really fortunate over the years to, to work with, you know, fantastic people that uh, could, could really honestly work in many, many places but choose to kind of have their professional home with Applin. And um, so our executive leadership team, we, we kind of brought that together. Um, and, and you know, use the kind of the Patrick Lencioni team, uh, one kind of thinking and approach to that to, to look at what's in the best interest of the company. Um, the other really a defining moment for me was uh, promoting um, Sarah Toar to the role of president and um, and having her you know, take, take on uh, that role. I retained the CEO role so I would look more external at acquisition targets to accelerate growth capital partners, uh, other industry trends like technology disruption. But having that president, um, look internally at operational excellence, culture, people alignment, um, with incentives and business objectives, stuff like that. She's been fantastic. And um, and that, that's been a, you know, I think it was a very important move for, for the long term success of the company.

Speaker A: Okay, so you talked about when, when you were first running things, you felt like it was in a downward spiral. What did you, what triggers or what, what signs or flags did you see that things were, had turned around? Like what were, what was the turning point and how did you get there to turn around the company?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, you know, one example that really pops to mind, Heather, is you know, when I talk about that downward spiral, it was a case where ah, unfortunately people would put you know, kind of their self interest, like commissions ahead of the customer's interest. And I knew that that was, you know, you're, you're dead if you don't deal with that as a business. So we definitely had that. We had a lot of people that were kind of in it for them, their own commission and not necessarily for um, you know, the highest and best outcome of the, of the customer. So we had to get rid of those, those people and really change the culture. That was, that was hard. And um, we brought in um, you know, a model which we call the client centric model, which was really selling as a team sport. Um, you know, it involves not only the you know, sales team of course, and our delivery team for our service, but also, you know, our back office for alignment with, you know, collections, um, and executive sponsors and all of that. So it sort of expanded, uh, it put the customer right front and center of what we think say and do and say. How do we, how do we add the maximum amount of value to these Customers as an organization. And that really helped. And when I started hearing, you know, our uh, managers and our account managers and our people refer to that client centric model and what was, let's stop and think about this. What's in the best interest for the customer? That's when I thought, okay, this is. We're starting to turn the corner and go into an upward spiral.

Speaker A: Excellent. Such good advice. Um, so the company's transition moved on and what was the trigger for you seeking a capital partner?

Speaker B: That's a great question. I mean, yeah, we, um, we had done a, um, few acquisitions to accelerate growth coming out of the pandemic. So I guess, you know, kind of from 2021 to 2025, um, we made a number of moves just, just buying uh, other, other companies to accelerate growth because the market was after 2022, which was a very good year, 23, 24, 25 were pretty lackluster, kind of stagnant markets. Uh, so we weren't seeing a lot of organic growth. So I said, well we need to take advantage of that and try to accelerate through mergers and acquisitions, which we did. But we did that all on our own, um, independently and then with uh, some support with the senior, uh, bank. Um, so that led us to the point we're saying, okay, we, we're getting better at identifying good targets to buy, um, or you know, refining the thesis on, on where the value creation is going to be from the combination of the two businesses and then the integration of, of people and systems. We, we've done that a few times and started to say okay, we're getting, exercising some muscle there. Um, but really we could accelerate and grow a lot faster if we brought in a capital partner and kind of recapitalize, start with the new balance sheet, um, and then go from there. So that was the thinking about it. And I probably spent through that time, probably a solid amount of my proportion of my time for about two years, probably at least, learning about private capital markets, attending conferences, including, uh, Newport, um, conferences, uh, like the Founder Friendly Capital Conference that Doug Tatum shared. Um, and, and other, you know, ways to learn about the way that capital markets work for private enterprise. And uh, and then yeah, we selected, uh, an investment banker, which was Newport, um, John Shout out to John Toronto and Fred Fink, who did an outstanding job for us and led to a terrific outcome. Um, so yeah, we, we ended up, you know, picking that, that advisor, uh, and, and then running a process that, that ah, led to the partnership that we have today, which we're really really thrilled about.

Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. And, and what were, what were you looking for when, with that process? Like who is going to help you get through, um, choosing the capital partner? Like who are you looking for? Like what, what made you understand like this, this is, this, these are the people who are going to help me get through this. And then secondly, when you were having to choose a capital partner, what, what were you looking for in that organization?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, yeah, I mean definitely talking to a lot of advisors, a lot of other entrepreneurs just about experience share, um, you know, good, good, bad, ugly experiences they've had with uh, with private equity partners or you know, going through other um, uh, partnerships, um, mergers and acquisitions, all of that kind of experience. And uh, so I did, I just listened a lot to, to people's experience and uh, you know, really paid attention to that. And, and then I started to realize, you know, what was going to work well for our company and what the sort of the key ingredients for success for a new partnership were going to be. Um, and um, yeah, like I said, we ran a robust process just to select an investment banker, um, like I said, which led to a selecting uh, Newport, uh, and then of course likewise an even more thorough process to find a capital partner. So I mean I talked to a lot of advisors, talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and um, just listen to people's experience and thought what can we learn from that?

Speaker A: Yeah, there's the two things you mentioned I think are really important to point out. One is the need to seek information and really listen and learn. And then secondly, understanding that you were trying to find the right fit for your company. It really is trying to matchmake who's going to do a great job for your business specifically. And I think that's so very important both in who's going to help you get there, the investment banking team. But then also with choosing a capital partner, it's not something to be taken lightly and the, the right fit for someone else may not be the right fit for you, which is so good. Absolutely.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I mean the whole um, like learning about the capital market, I mean it's a whole other, you know, area of, of learning and it's um, it's an uphill climb for a lot of entrepreneurs to learn. That certainly was for, for me. Um, so you kind of have to really stay focused on that over time to try to figure it out because it is hard to navigate. Um, and it can be confusing to understand. Uh, but um, it's also I think really, really important to have some understanding of it, but also really rely on your trusted advisors, um, to help navigate that um, path. But uh, yeah, to echo your point, I was in a full circle moment. I was invited by Deloitte to attend the Deloitte Entrepreneur Summit in, in Dallas, which is, I would categorize essentially as speed dating, uh, entrepreneurs speed dating private equity partners for a couple days. And um, it was, it was a great experience. Learned a ton. Super grateful to Deloitte for that opportunity. Um, and just like learning about, you know, you sit down and go like well what's, you know, what's, what's your fund? Or what's this? And, and it's just amazing how diverse the sources of capital are, what they're looking for, where the capital's um, provided by uh, their strategies, what the targets of investment. Like just so many layers of complexity to it. And um, it just really shows that going slow if possible, but having a really trusted team of advisors is absolutely critical.

Speaker A: I would agree with that. And so what surprised you about the due diligence process? Because that can, I often warn business owners that that's actually a full time job practically. So it's, I love that you have a president that you can rely on to run the company while you're, you're doing this, you're focusing on this, this capital process. So what surprised you about due diligence?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I mean I, I think the, the for the most part, um, I, I knew it was gonna be, it was gonna be very intense and it certainly was and I was prepared for that. But what it wasn't prepared for I think was the uh, like the level of minutia that um, it can get into. Um, and, and, and even asking you know, like why, why would this, like under what circumstances would this even matter? Um, but not getting a great answer for that, but they just want to look or whatever. So there, that, that's probably the thing that um, I, I would not necessarily surprise but puzzled by. I, there are certain things I was puzzled by. I'll give an example. Like our um, uh, with our, our landlords, we have about um, you know, eight offices across Canada that we lease from various landlords. And um, so you know there's, it's kind of understandable for me that there'd be a, you know, a change of control, uh, provision around those leases and getting consent for that. But it can take, landlords are slow and it can take you know, months. And these are big institutional landlords a lot, a lot of the time. So it takes a long Time. But then like, there's some other things where, you know, like the, the Capital Partners bank would say, like, what would you subordinate your security interest under the lease to? Like, the furniture, the desks and stuff. And the landlord's like, no, like, why would we.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Like we. We had this on a lease. And then so like they're getting to like levels of that that you're going like, why do you. Why does this matter? Right. Um, and ultimately it all gets sorted out. But those are the things where the. The rabbit hole went really deep into certain things for no consequence, but. But just like a lot of activity and seemed like kind of spinning our wheels a bit on some of the due diligence.

Speaker A: Okay, so we're both. We're past the transaction. You're still leading the company. And what, um, what's your vision for the company going forward for Applin?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I mean we have a tremendous opportunity to grow in, um, in Canada, North America. Um, you know, our organic growth now is, Is kicking into a better gear. Um, I think with our improved capability from the acquisitions. And then, uh, our acquisition pipeline is. Is like. It's like bursting full. And we have a really good, um, pipeline of, Of I think, you know, extremely high caliber, um, target companies that, that we may want to, um, add on to our platform. And um. So really I just. It's very exciting just to think about the growth and, and say like, let's discover how far we can go with. With the company. Um, with you know, improved sort of governance and improved access to capital. Um, you know, some probably some. Some improved scrutiny of our strategy. Um, so things like that and say like, let's, let's go. Like, like how far can we take this? And um, that's very exciting and I think that's. That's motivating for a lot of people. People like to be part of a winning team that's growing, creating opportunities, career opportunities, development opportunities for, for our people. Um, and um, yeah, so that. That's really our vision is to just expand the. Be the platform of choice for talent acquisition in the professional job categories in Canada and um, and really become a, you know, even more of a market leader nationally in Canada for that.

Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. So, um, who has inspired you over the years? You know, you talked about like learning entrepreneurship literally as in the household you grew up in. So maybe start there and then. Then continue on. Who's inspired you?

Speaker B: Oh, for sure, for sure. Uh, you know, my father, you know, may. May rest in peace. Like the, um, he was just Such a great human being. Um, and I was really fortunate to be close with my dad. So that was um, he's definitely you know, remains an inspiration for me and, and certainly was um, you know, his, his, his passion for the business and entrepreneurial spirit. Um, and then yeah, you know, I, it's you know, I, I, I've always admired you know, people that, that, that have, you know, from experience and otherwise kind of wrapped their, their heads around like leadership topics. Um, I would say you know John, uh, C. Maxwell is one that comes to mind that is as a source of um, whenever I read one of his books or listen to some of his podcasts or you know, his, his companies content now it's um, it's, I just always benefit from it and I, I just you know, um, I admire that that you can you know, provide that kind of a perspective on, on a topic like leadership over really decades and um, and still be very relevant. And uh, so that, that's inspiring to me. Um, and just you know, entrepreneurs in general, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I love entrepreneurs. Um, the, the decisive action that people take and the, the risks and frankly the, the pain and the uh, the grind and um, all, all that goes with it, good and bad. It's, it's not easy but it's also you know, it just is, it's, it's just a valuable role that in our society that you know um, whether it's creating employment and creating meaningful work for people to do and you know, the nobility around that or just you know, serving clients in, in a way that you know is, is, is you know, certain as best you can in the way that they prefer to be served. Like all, all of that is inspiring to me that, that the work that entrepreneurs do day in day out to, to survive and then also you know, build um, a successful company.

Speaker A: That's awesome. So you talk about client centric. What do you think are the key things about a client centric strategy that business owners need to incorporate in order for it to be successful?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean every business is going to be a little different. So I would answer that question by saying that's the questions you ask to your ideal clients or customers. And I would ask them, you know, what do you like about us? What do we do well that you like about our service or our product? Um, what could be better about our, our service or our product? And, and really listen to both of those. And then I would two other things is uh, what can we do to earn more of your business? And you Might be very surprised. I've been very surprised sometimes at the answers that I get from customers on that. And then the last one is, you know, what can we do to screw it up and lose you as a customer? Um, because we don't want to do that. And, and uh, you know, typically they'll tell you, um, and typically from my experience, they're um, impressed that you're asking. Um, because most, most businesses don't ask. They're too busy, you know, in the day to day. You really. Yeah, those four things, you can apply that to almost any business or you know, a service or product. Um, and then that, that can sort of be ah, a, ah, compass for where you take your next decision.

Speaker A: Okay. And as a leader, how do you inspire, you know, you said there was a transition in your culture for your company. How do you inspire the, the employees and the staff of a company to embrace client centric strategy?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me it comes down to purpose. And I, uh, mean the, the underlying purpose. We call it the triple win, which is, you know, when we place somebody into a new gig, a new job opportunity, you know, that's a win for them, but it's also a win for their employer that, that team that gets to add to their team and then that's, you know, we get paid to do that. So it's a win, win, win. And that's somewhat unique that there's, you know, all three people really benefit in, in that, uh, winning way. And, and that's, that's meaningful. That, that sort of goes to leaving people better than you find them as, as much as possible through the course of business. And um, the people that really do well with our company over time and fit our culture, um, that matters to them. And that's also kind of speaks to the changing culture that we needed. Um, but um, yeah, I think it's more trying to stay on point with your purpose and trying to connect that to. What is that? How does that matter day to day? Like if we, if we place more people, more people win, clients win, we win, and the company grows. So that's at a kind of, uh, a high level. That's kind of what we talk about that hopefully, um, gets people to come to work every day and do a great job.

Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. So who are your mentors and what's the best advice you've ever gotten from them?

Speaker B: Oh boy. Um, I mean, I, I'm a big believer in the peer group model, so I've been involved with all kinds of entrepreneur, CEO, peer groups, um, Through EO Entrepreneurs Organization, through UM Tech, the executive committee which is the Vistage. Um, and some other ones as well that like some were self formed. Um, some were. Other um, less formal. Some were formal with the moderator. But that, that peer group provides a lot of mentorship and, and also a place to go with decisions that you can't necessarily bring home to your. Um, to my, to my wife, my spouse or other family members that it wouldn't be fair to kind of burden them with. With that. Um, and also you're not necessarily information or decisions that you want to put onto, you know, the balance of your management team. Um, so having a place for that to go I think is really important for you know, mental health, stress management, um, and feedback too like from a, from a group, a room that you, when there's trust in the room. Um, so that I get a lot of mentorship from, from, from those kind of groups. Uh, and, and then just. I think other. There's just so many people I've benefited from listening to. Like uh, it's just such a long list. Um, but people that have you know, taught something or written something and answered questions. I mean there's, it's, it's a long list. Um, but I think interacting with people and just saying hey, you know I liked this about here message or whatever it is, whatever content it may form maybe. Uh, and just saying like what do you think about this? Um, am I on the right track? And, and just I think there's a lot of mentorship that can be people um, can benefit from if they're, if they're paying attention.

Speaker A: Excellent. No, and I love that lifelong learning and, and the peer seeking advice and in a peer group. It's, it's, it's excellent. Absolutely excellent. Um, so what are a few to be successful, to run this, to handle the capital. All, all of the things you've done. What are a few of your daily rituals that help you um, be successful and get ready to you know, attack the day?

Speaker B: Uh, you know, two things. One pretty traditional I'd say and one, um, maybe less traditional perhaps. But I, I'm, I'm just on a practical day to day level. Um, I'm a big fan of just the, the old to do list. Um, you know, what are the, the, the top three things? Or if I only do one thing really well today, like what is that one thing I have to really nail today? Um, because there's, there's so much competition for your time. Um, and it can be a trap to fall into trying to get, you know, 20 things done. But you know, m. Maybe you can delegate those. Maybe you got to focus on just what you can only do. Um, so I'm a big fan of just the, the old fashioned to do list. The other thing is meditation. Um, I find the days that I meditate, um, in the morning, even just for five to 20 minutes, um, sets me on a much better path for the rest of my day and brings, uh, me a lot of clarity and sort of peace on what my priorities need to be that day. And it certainly helps my stress. Um, and um, yeah, so I would say that that kind of mindfulness and then the old fashioned to do list to get through it because there's um, it's motivating to see the progress when you're working things off your list.

Speaker A: Excellent. Yeah, I recommend both of those to a lot of the business owners and CEOs I work with. In fact, I just wrote a blog or something on LinkedIn about that, specifically saying what is the one thing you need to do today that will allow you to go to sleep tonight? Which is one way of looking at it. But it really does help you focus and prioritize what is very important. I have one last question to ask, but before I ask it, I want to point people to your website@applin.com or of course to reach out to you on LinkedIn. So, final question. What is a hard lesson that you've learned while starting and growing your business that you would like to share to help other CEOs and business owners avoid maybe some of that discomfort and pain that you mentioned?

Speaker B: Uh, okay then. It's really, it's a, it's, it's, it's about people and it's. The bigger the dream, the more important the team. That's, that's what I've learned. Uh, if you, if you really want to kind of reach for the stars, you're going to need a really good team and you're going to have to be really honest with yourself about, about your team, um, and, and who's on it and who, who you, you know, need to make way for someone better to come on. Um, and those can be really tough, uh, really gut wrenching, um, emotional, uh, you know, difficult, stressful decisions about people. But yeah, the bigger the dream, the more important the team. That's, uh, that, uh, that, that is the, the one, that very truthful part of my experience both ways. The good way and the bad way. Yeah, I've lived both.

Speaker A: Excellent. I've been talking with Jeff Applin CEO, uh, of Applin. Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your story and experience.

Speaker B: My pleasure, My pleasure. Heather, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for listening to the Growth plus Exit podcast sponsored by Newport, a unique national business advisor advisory firm. If you enjoy this show, be sure to share like and subscribe for future episodes.