Meg Delp with Supporting Employee Mental Health Without Becoming a Therapist

Speaker A: People do not feel comfortable going to HR or going to Leadership Executive C suite. And that is a problem because we also found people along with people. Managers see HR as the ones responsible for driving the mental health conversation at the workplace. And so there is this gap between I'm going to talk to you about mental health and I'm expecting you to teach me about mental health. Foreign.

Speaker B: Hr. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative Bulletproof Background Checks with Fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for all stakeholders. And I'm joined today by Meg Delb. Meg is an organizational psychologist and retired marriage and family therapist. She is also the director of Workplace Mental health at the national alliance on Mental Illness nami, where she leads the Stigma Free Workplace initiative. NAMI released their third annual NAMI Ipsos workplace Mental Health poll earlier this year and Meg joins us to discuss their findings and ways employers can support their employees. Mental health. Welcome to Good morning HR Meg.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker B: So, so there seems like there's a lot of conversation in the last five, six years around workplace mental health and much more than when I started my HR career 35 years ago. So are we just more fragile as a society or what's going on?

Speaker A: You know, I think more and more people are starting to accept that mental health is just a part of our whole health. We all have brains, therefore we all have mental health to take care of. And we're really starting to better understand the impact of poor mental health on business outcomes. And so we're seeing that business case for supporting our employees, for providing them resources, for bringing that conversation about mental health into the workplace so that we can move burnout, uh, prevention really upstream and start to prevent burnout, prevent these, uh, poor mental health outcomes, make sure our employees are actually aware of and using their mental health benefits that we pay lots of good money for. And yeah, just really understanding that, that balance between ensuring our employees get the support they need while also ensuring we are maintaining really great performance standards.

Speaker B: So do you think. So if I hear, uh, I think what you're saying is it's more about an awareness and a, uh, concern on employers part about the issue more than things have changed in society or how people are actually showing up to work.

Speaker A: That is definitely, I would say probably half of it. The other half is that simply we are learning more about mental health as a society and, and we are understanding how the brain works much, much Better. We are really just developing, uh, that deeper understanding of how impactful our mental health is on a day to day basis.

Speaker B: And so, um, when you look at mental health in the US workplaces or just in the US do mental health challenges, do the trends track along any specific demographics? Age, income, education, or is, or is it pretty consistent across the board?

Speaker A: In the NAMI workplace mental health poll, we saw that there were some, uh, groups of people, some populations that did show poor mental health outcomes. Uh, that was caregivers. They are feeling way more stressed, way more torn between that work life balance. They are more likely to actually feel like they need to leave their jobs and actually do so because of the um, mental strain of carrying both roles of a caregiver and whatever job they are performing. We also know that younger generations are feeling more stress, they're experiencing more burnout. Uh, that post Covid job entry, that was rough for many, many people. And so we're seeing those lingering effects, um, on the younger generations for sure.

Speaker B: And that's come up in other podcasts. In fact, our, our April news, um, conversation, we had a conversation about a study that was released around that. And I think especially Gen Xers like me, our gut reaction is often, well, yeah, the Gen Z, they're just, you know, Gen Z, Gen X there or um, Gen Y or whatever, they're, they're more fragile than we were. And my argument is kind of, well, maybe that's the case. But still, as employers, this is the workforce you've got, right? And you've got to figure out a way to help them be healthy or help them be at a point where they can perform in the workplace and be successful for the investment that you're making in them as employees. And so regardless of whether in my generation, you know, you know, Gen Xers, we've, you know, built this whole mythology now around how we were locked out of our houses all day and roamed around and nobody knew where we were. And you know, we were feral, feral animals. Uh, which is kind of true, but I think that's kind of a moot point, right? Uh, because you've got this workforce and this is where the future of your company is and you've got to figure out a way to do it. So if you need to change how you view things or how you approach things, that's what you got to do to be successful as a company. Um, what do you hear from employers as you're talking about the survey about generational differences?

Speaker A: It is definitely a hot topic. We, uh, definitely see different viewpoints. Um, and of course we're generalizing when we talk about the generations. And we do know that Gen Z, they're coming into the workplace really having high, higher expectations for how they're treated and how their employer views their mental health and making sure that they are able to care for their health in a way that is actually sustainable. And so those higher expectations, I think those are kind of being viewed and maybe challenged a little bit by employers. Where it's been, you know, it's always been this way or we've made it this far. Why do we need to change now? Like we're starting to see a little bit more dialogue. Um, nami, we have a cohort of Gen Z um, advisors called the NAMI Next Gen Advisory Council. And they are just amazing advocates for mental health. And I have had the opportunity to talk to many of them, um, about their work experience, how they have actually had both really positive and really negative experiences. In sharing their mental health journey with their manager or getting, getting accommodations with hr, they have had both positive and negative experiences. So I do think there are companies that are recognizing we need to take care of our mental health. Maybe this new generation has a point.

Speaker B: Well, and you said, uh, something there about they're more comfortable or they have expectation that they can share their mental health issues or concerns or challenges, uh, in the workplace. And that's something that's definitely changed, uh, over my career. And I remember the first time I ever heard I'm taking a mental health day from somebody. And I think for several years when it first was said, it was kind of said as a joke and then it kind of came up a real thing and took on a new, a new meaning. Uh, and now it's, it's, it's, you know, it's a legit reason to take a day off. I mean you don't have to have a doctor's appointment or have something else. Just saying I just need a day to breathe and collect myself or whatever is, uh, acceptable. So talk about that transition. How safe or uh, you know, how acceptable is it versus how safe is. Do people feel sharing about their own mental health is the workplace?

Speaker A: So in our study, nationally representative, it's not just, you know, the NAMI audience, who all already are very much yea, mental health.

Speaker B: They've already drank your Kool Aid, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is a nationally representative survey. So it is people from CEO on down. It is all backgrounds, it is all industries. We found that three in four employees, they feel it's appropriate to talk about mental health in the workplace. And so when you have, you know, 75% of your workforce believing that it is a topic that can be, um, talked about, that shows that we really are moving into that place of awareness, acceptance. We also, however, found that far fewer actually do talk about their mental health. And the top reasons why are still stigmatized. Not knowing really how to have that conversation and just really still worrying about that retaliation or judgment. There are still those fears, there's very real fears about actually having that mental health conversation. As we move hopefully from building mental health awareness into more of that action piece where we are training our people, managers on how to support their teams, we, we are having leadership be more open about their own mental health so their departments, their teams can really feel safe asking, hey, I'm feeling really overworked or overloaded. How can we work together to prioritize my workload, to really help me understand where I should focus this week so that I can kind of rebalance my energy? Um, we also have found that many folks do not know whether or not they have access to mental health benefits. And because we only surveyed larger employers, it is likely that they do have access. And if they don't know, they certainly are not using it. And so that is another way that having more training, making sure mental health is part of the conversation, people will be able to really take care of themselves much better. Again, moving into that, like, prevention place where we are, instead of reacting to experiencing depression, experiencing anxiety, we are saying, I am going to take a mental health day because I'm starting to feel a little bit overloaded. I'll take care of myself. I'll return to work the next day feeling ready to go. So stay. Starting that mental health conversation is really, really key in building awareness, building a much more cohesive culture where people feel supported, and then also making sure that people know that they have access to, uh, very real resources often provided by the company.

Speaker B: So when you're, when employees feel the need to take a mental health day or have that, you know, uncomfortable conversation with the boss about workload or prioritization or maybe just how things are said in the workplace and how instructions are given, all those things, uh, how would you coach an employer, like a frontline supervisor, let's say, to make that conversation easier to have without risking becoming that person's therapist or, you know, or stepping into a role that you're not qualified to step into or, and quite honestly, as, you know, as the risk manager for the organization, not getting information that I don't want to have in my possession. You know, that's not just, you know, doesn't have a business need to know. And, um, you know, you know, maybe we just need to drive this person through the ADA interactive process so they can, you know, because the frontline manager doesn't need to know a lot of the details, but sometimes the employee wants to feel like they, that person's hearing them and understands and has empathy for them. And so it's kind of that balance. So how would you walk a manager through that process?

Speaker A: First, I would say make sure all, uh, people, managers are trained. Um, if only I know, I know. Trained in how to be a manager, trained in how to support their employees. Our study showed that burnout rates among trained managers were way lower. They felt way more connected to the company mission. They were just healthier individuals. So first leadership, please train your managers.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's. And I'll tell you, that's a drinking game here because so many of the issues we talk about boil down to the lack of investment and training on, uh, our managers. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yes. After you have trained your managers. So, yeah, managers, we, uh, we don't want anyone to feel like they have to be a therapist because they are not a therapist at work, so. Absolutely true. Mike. We are not asking anyone to all of a sudden become a therapist. What we typically recommend is making sure you're really listening. So are your notifications off? Are you in a private setting? Are you creating a space where the person can actually feel like you are there with them, inviting them to share how their work has been impacted or, uh, what they need to do their job more successfully? You are allowed to, you know, really keep that focus on work impact or work changes that could be helpful to the person. If the person is sharing things that feel uncomfortable, if they're sharing things that are very personal, you are also allowed to have boundaries as a person and say thank you so much for sharing. And I think this problem might need to be addressed with our eap. Did you know that we have an EAP and really help guide that person to a resource that hopefully you all have access to. If you don't, you can reach out to your local nami. Uh, but helping that person get connected to resources, if they are talking about things that you are uncomfortable with, can be a really great way to make sure that the person still feels like you're hearing me, you care, you want me to get support. But again, not becoming that person's therapist.

Speaker B: And you mentioned your local NAMI chapter talk to me about, uh, what kind of services can they connect somebody to? And let's make sure what of my dearest friends in the world is on the NAMI board in El Paso. And so I've had my ear full of it over dinner many times and. Yeah, but share a little bit about what NAMI does, um, in different communities.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So NAMI is across the entire country. All of our affiliates are state organizations. They offer no cost support education groups. Um, they do so much advocacy at the federal, state, local levels. Um, and the beauty of NAMI is that we are all based on lived experience. So when you reach out to someone at nami, when you join a NAMI support group, you are talking to someone who has really lived what you are going through. And that is whether you yourself live with a mental health condition or if you are a caregiver of someone who lives with a mental health condition. We really support both the whole family. We want to make sure everyone knows what resources they have, have the education about mental health to really spot warning signs, know when things are escalating, to make sure that the people they love are cared for. Um, and so nami.org local text, type in your zip code. You'll find your local NAMI affiliate. They're amazing. We also have a national helpline. This is different than a crisis line. This helpline, uh, is just staffed by the most beautiful people, truly beautiful individuals. And you can call this helpline and they will help connect you to the next step. So whatever mental health resource you need, whether that is a local nami, just to get some more education, or if you do need a higher level of treatment, they'll help you figure out what is in your area. And so NAMI helpline, great place to start. 1-800-950-6264 or you can just find your local NAMI chapter.

Speaker B: And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is brought to you by imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. We're dropping this episode just a couple days before the 2026 4th of July, the 250th anniversary of the United States. First steps in our long, sometimes stumbling march towards fully recognizing those truths that all men and women are endowed with certain inalienable rights that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Last month's Channel Juneteenth celebration was another mile marker in our slow but continued progress to that end. In the same vein, as people leaders, I believe we should recognize and honor the individuality and agency of each person on our team, empowering them to maximize their potential and proudly deliver their very best work every day. And I hope that this podcast in some small way also helps to empower you to make maximize your potential and proudly deliver your very best work every day as well. Thank you for listening to this podcast. It is a labor of love and a unique privilege to deliver each week. If you're an HRCI or SHRM Certified Professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been pre approved for 1/2 hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information, visit good morninghr.com and and click on Research Credits. Then select Episode 259 and enter the keyword NAMI. That's N A M M I quick reminder that we're releasing a one page discussion starter you can use with your HR or leadership team to consider the relevance of the information in this episode to your organization. The link is in the show notes. And now back to my conversation with Megdelp. So one of the other things that came out of the report is that people trust their coworkers, which I thought was really interesting. And because on the employment engagement side, one of the things that data shows is that the employees who have a bestie at work are the most engaged employees. There's a strong correlation there. So talk about the importance of friends at work and having those closer relationships and then maybe delve into who in the organization are people least comfortable talking to about their mental health.

Speaker A: Sure. So yeah, like you said, people in the workplace are most comfortable and are more likely to share with a colleague they consider a close friend. Close behind them, though, are their people managers, which honestly I was shocked by. My assumption was that they would not be as comfortable.

Speaker B: But it seems like the least safe person your direct supervisor would seem like if you were worried that would be the least safe person.

Speaker A: Right. And so it looks like even though we're not training our managers sufficiently, it appears that our people managers, they are still really showing up for their teams and people do actually feel safe talking to them and going with, uh, going to them with any potential challenges they're facing. Again, maybe it's just sticking to work talk like, hey, I need help prioritizing my task list. But even saying that can sometimes feel risky. What we have found is that people do not feel comfortable going to HR or going to leadership Executive C suite. And that is a problem because we also found people along with people managers see HR as the ones responsible for driving the mental health conversation at the workplace. And so there is this gap between I'm going to talk to you about mental health, and I'm expecting you to teach me about mental health. So we, we want to work on creating a culture where HR leadership, our executive teams are maybe a little bit more open about mental health. Maybe during, you know, stressful seasons. They're acknowledging, I am stressed. I know y' all are stressed. Even saying things like that can make it that much safer to acknowledge the stress and then do something about it. And so bringing, uh, that conversation, modeling good mental health from hr, from leadership, it can go a long way in creating more safety, which means people are going to talk about it more, which means they're going to get help quicker.

Speaker B: The report said something like half of employees are experiencing burnout. So how do you def, how do you, you know, there's a thousand different definitions. So how do you define burnout? What does that mean in, in, in this world? And, and what do you think's driving that?

Speaker A: So burnout is technically not a clinical term yet. Um, but burnout really is that place where stress has been ongoing for officially too long. You have, you don't see an end in sight. You don't know when the stress is going to end. You're starting to feel exhausted, you're starting to maybe be a little bit more irritable with folks that you were not previously irritable with. Your empathy is dropping, your ability to collaborate is dropping, your performance is dropping. Like you're, Your ability to show up as your best self is just not as possible day to day. And when those, uh, circumstances don't get better, that burnout progresses and it gets worse and worse. And then we start seeing physical signs. We can even end up where we are getting an actual clinical diagnosis of mild depression or anxiety. And so while burnout itself is not a clinical diagnosis, it is a very real state of physical and, uh, mental health that is rapidly declining.

Speaker B: So it's more of an ongoing fatigue, something like that. And I think one of the things that many employers, when they hear the term burnout or even workplace mental, uh, illness, health issues or anything like that, they immediately become defensive because the assumption is, what you're telling me is that my workplace is causing this person, my company, my worth, is causing this person to have some mental distress. But really, people have mental distress that comes into the workplace from all other parts of their life as well. Right. So it's not just an employer issue as far as the sources of this.

Speaker A: Absolutely. We can be burned out because we have too many caregiving obligations at home. We saw in our study, the Sandwich generation, those folks who are taking care of both, uh, aging parents or an elderly relative and their own kids, they had way higher levels of burnout overall stress. So that burnout can start at home and come into the workplace. It can also just be a combination of both. I can't do my job and my caregiving responsibilities and still be a functional human. Sometimes it is that combination. Um, and as we look at preventing burnout, responding to burnout, we do know research has shown regardless of where that burnout comes from, it is the people, managers, the leadership that play the biggest role in resolving it and changing the company culture so that burnout does not happen again.

Speaker B: And at some point some percentage of people who are experiencing burnout are going to, in their own best interest, have to find other work or take some extended break from the workplace in general. Um, and you know, the hard thing for managers, again, we're not trained to make those diagnoses, but when you, you know, so we're constantly telling our managers, uh, you know, manage the performance and so you see the performance and we're, you're managing that. How do we get, you know, when we uh, you know, talk to the employee, maybe it's even through the interactive process, if it becomes an ADA issue. Um, but what do you need to be successful? What do you need? And sometimes the answer is a complete change of scene or a completely different role. Uh, so talk through how you can compassionately have a conversation with an employee where there's clearly there's, you know, apparently nothing that an employer is going to be able to do to relieve, give that person some mental relief, uh, in their job. Can you comfortable having that kind of conversation?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you kind of covered it. We want to approach with compassion. We want to lead first with that empathy. Uh, regardless of where they're at in that burnout journey, if you're just starting to notice signs of them feeling overwhelmed and distressed, or if they're in a place where their health is really not doing well. We want to lead with compassion and we want to make sure that that person feels like they are being heard, they're being seen, and they're being given the opportunity to work on the things that they can work on. Like you mentioned, maybe it is getting involved with ada, maybe it is a, uh, shift in workload for even just two weeks so that the person can kind of get their feet back under them. Um, but trying first to really problem solve, to see what is kind, uh, of underlying if it is a work issue. Um, that can be resolved or even modified for a temporary period of time, really making sure that problem solving happens first. And then as it becomes more and more apparent, if this is the case that the work simply is not able to be modified, then having that compassionate conversation and helping the person, uh, maybe think through what next steps could be working with hr, you know, really making sure that that person feels supported, even if that support is helping them find a new position, helping them network, you know, whatever those options are, making sure that that person really feels that support can be just a humongous, humongous help.

Speaker B: I think sometimes managers, those frontline managers, maybe they pick up that this person is under enough stress or strain that, uh, is affecting their work before the person even recognizes it. Um, and so bringing those conversations up around, hey, I saw this behavior in the staff meeting, or your response in this email was not characteristic of how you normally, you know, uh, would respond. Is there anything going on? Is there, you know, is there anything I can help you with? Things like that, uh, can. Can uh, make a difference in getting that conversation started early? But I think a lot of managers, especially that, with the focus on. Now that we see mental health as a medical issue, I think, uh, more than just a, you know, just, you know, some weird thing that a few people have and, you know, and uh, um, you know, I think m. Some managers are really uncomfortable addressing early stage because, you know, this get liver quiver about having those conversations. But talk about the consequence if we ignore that and, and there's just silence in the office about that. What. What's the impact on, on both that individual and the culture of the work group?

Speaker A: Absolutely. So if we don't look at those early warning signs and address them, which, by the way, you gave perfect examples, just noticing how the person behaved differently or is not acting like themselves, that is one of the best ways to just start that conversation. You're focusing on work and letting the person know that, hey, I see you, I'm with you, I want to support you. Um, if we ignore those early warning signs, then we have the risk of that progressing, becoming more of a performance issue, an engagement issue. Um, we can get to a place where the person is not showing up consistently at work. Um, they might even find themselves wanting to leave their job where before they were like an. A employee that we don't want to lose. And so really keeping an eye on our team members, catching those warning signs early can prevent a whole slew of problems down the line. And so creating that psychological safety along with burnout that other hot topic, psychological safety. A place where being uncomfortable is actually very important. Um, being uncomfortable in that mental health conversation, it doesn't mean that the conversation is wrong. It just means it's uncomfortable while also being very important. And you can really help the team member, your entire team feel safer talking about their mental health. If you bring it up yourself as a manager, as leadership. And so checking in with our team members, letting them know we see those warning signs, it creates that psychological safety so that maybe they can come to you instead of you having to check in with them and they say, hey, I've noticed I have not been on top of my stuff. Let's talk about it. Here's what I might need. Do you have any ideas for like workload adjustments, whatever it is, when employees feel comfortable coming to their managers, their leadership, then they get to be part of their own burnout prevention. Uh, and so yeah, creating that psychological safety is just so, so important.

Speaker B: So to wrap up, what do you think? I mean we've talked about manager training and we touched on and maybe we need to get deeper into making sure people know what resources are available for them. But what's the action plan for an employer that really does want to make sure that they, they're providing a, uh, a work environment that considers their employees mental health a priority?

Speaker A: I would say definitely checking in with your employees. First understand the population that is working for you, the different needs of different populations. So first seeing your employees as individual unique humans with individual unique needs. That is step one. Step two, really looking at training, such as our new training, you can ask. It is all about starting the mental health conversation and it is free as most NAMI things are. Uh, so you can ask. Great training story, super fun. Um, training as many people as you can on how to actually bring this conversation into the workplace. Again, not expecting anyone to become a therapist at work, but just really ensuring they know how to talk about mental health appropriately. So, so we're not further stigmatizing mental health, making someone feel uncomfortable, bringing up their own mental health or asking for help. Um, and then really making sure leadership is modeling that mental health. It's not just important for May Mental Health Awareness Month, it is important all year round. We are constantly reminding folks of the resources they have access to. Our mental health benefits, local resources like their local nami. Um, really making sure mental health just becomes part of that communication plan throughout the year so that people know this is not just an awareness campaign. This is truly how the company culture is supporting my mental health. Uh, we are really talking about this. We are really making sure that the culture is supporting the mental health of employees at all levels.

Speaker B: And you said that the NAMI training is called you can ask.

Speaker A: You can ask by nami.

Speaker B: Okay. And it's on your website, I assume?

Speaker A: It sure is.

Speaker B: Good. We'll put a link to the NAMI website on the in the show notes. Uh, and we're out of time. Thank you for joining me, Meg. I really appreciate it.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. It was definitely a pleasure. And you know, I encourage everyone listening to learn more about nami. Become a stigma free workplace. You'll get to talk to me a lot more.

Speaker B: So there you go.

Speaker A: Highly recommend.

Speaker B: Thank you and thank you all for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please write us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you're listening and then share this episode on your favorite social media platform. It really does drive new listeners to us and so we can have help more people be better people managers. And we'd love to hear your thoughts@goodmorninghr.com and don't forget to download our discussion PDF. Uh, it'll help you work with your team and maybe your leadership to think about how the things we talked about in this episode affect your organization. Good Morning HR is produced by Marianne Martinez and Paco Corral on Imperative's marketing team. The Good Morning HR theme music was created by Steve Pegler at HR Strategies of Texas and I'm Mike Coffey. As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service personally or professionally. I'll see you next week. And until then, be well, do good and keep your chin up.

Speaker A: Sa.