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Index/HR/Gereon Hermkes
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Scaling Done Right 08: Product Ownership in Scrum@Scale

Gereon Hermkes · 2026-03-05 · 11 min

0:00--:--

Key moments - from our scoring

Substance score

21 / 100

Five dimensions, 20 points each

Insight Density7 / 20
Originality4 / 20
Guest Caliber4 / 20
Specificity & Evidence4 / 20
Conversational Craft2 / 20

Product ownership is often neglected in organizations that heavily invest in delivery teams and infrastructure, resulting in 75% of features going unused and significant ROI loss. Hermkes emphasizes that great product owners elevate mediocre teams while poor product owners sabotage excellent ones. The core dysfunction stems from obsession with output - maximizing feature count - rather than outcomes like customer satisfaction. Word processors and presentation software illustrate this: most users leverage only 15% of available features, yet enormous resources created the unused 80%. Stretch goals, despite sounding motivational, erode team morale and quality over time; instead, Hermkes advocates yesterday's weather (using historical sprint velocity to forecast capacity) as a more sustainable planning approach. Technical debt - work done quickly without proper engineering - compounds velocity loss over time; product owners must prioritize continuous integration, automated testing, pair programming, and strategic refactoring to maintain speed. The Meta Scrum event, facilitated by the Chief Product Owner and including leadership and key stakeholders controlling resources, aligns enterprise priorities, budgets, and portfolio decisions at least once per sprint. This structured approach to product ownership at scale prevents the common scenario of dropping unprepared product owners into chaotic situations with only basic user story writing skills.

Key takeaways

  • →Empowered, available, and qualified product owners are the foundation for scaling; without them, organizations waste 75% of development effort on unused features and suffer poor ROI.
  • →Yesterday's weather (basing sprint capacity on historical velocity) replaces harmful stretch goals, improving team motivation, quality, and long-term productivity while managing stakeholder expectations.
  • →Technical debt must be managed proactively by product owners through emphasis on first-time-right engineering, automated testing, continuous integration, and regular refactoring to prevent velocity decay.
  • →The Meta Scrum event, run by the Chief Product Owner with enterprise leadership and resource controllers, is essential for aligning portfolio decisions, budgets, and organizational structure at scale.
  • →Outcome-focused product ownership (happy customers) beats output obsession (feature count); most users only leverage 15% of software features, making prioritization by business value critical.

In this episode

  1. 1Attributes of Good Product Ownership
  2. 2Common Product Ownership Challenges and Their Costs
  3. 3Avoiding Stretch Goals and Command-and-Control Approaches
  4. 4Understanding and Managing Technical Debt
  5. 5Scaled Scrum Events and MetaScrum

Topics in this episode

Technical debtContinuous IntegrationProduct ownershipStretch goalsScrum@ScaleMeta ScrumYesterday's WeatherStrategic RefactoringAutomated TestingChief Product Owner

Questions this episode answers

What are the three key attributes of a good product owner?

Empowered, available, and qualified. Product owners need authority to make decisions without constant escalation, time dedicated to the role, and relevant knowledge of product ownership and market dynamics.

What is yesterday's weather and why is better than stretch goals?

Yesterday's weather uses actual historical sprint velocity (points completed in the last sprint or average of 3-5 sprints) to predict future capacity. It's superior to stretch goals because it sets realistic expectations, maintains team morale and quality, and builds stakeholder trust early.

How should product owners handle technical debt and defects?

Product owners should prioritize paying down technical debt, support continuous refactoring and automated testing, and treat discovered defects as immediate fixes rather than estimated backlog items, since every defect postponed borrows against future velocity.

What is the Meta Scrum event and who should attend?

The Meta Scrum is a meeting held at least once per sprint where the Chief Product Owner meets with enterprise leadership and stakeholders controlling resources (personnel, funding, customer relationships) to align on priorities, budgets, and portfolio decisions.

What percentage of software features do most users actually utilize?

Most users leverage only around 15% of the features available in typical software tools like word processors and presentation software, illustrating the waste created by output-focused development rather than outcome-focused prioritization.

What our scoring noted

Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.

Insight Density

7 / 20

The episode covers a handful of legitimate concepts (stretch goals vs. yesterday's weather, technical debt slowing velocity, MetaScrum structure) but at a surface level with no novel angles. Most of the content is standard Scrum doctrine that any practitioner will have encountered before, padded with generic framing.

About 75% of features in a product nobody uses or seldom does
Instead of trusting a team or group of teams to do their best, let's apply pressure on them. Unfortunately, that will backfire

Originality

4 / 20

Nearly every idea here - product owner empowerment, stretch goals being demotivating, technical debt as borrowed velocity, yesterday's weather - is well-worn Scrum orthodoxy recycled without any new angle or contrarian framing. There is no first-principles reasoning or surprising claim anywhere in the episode.

yesterday's weather is basically pick up the number of points that you completed in the last sprint and use that to predict how many points you're going to deliver in the following sprint
Stretch goals is instead of motivating the teams, they will, over time eliminate the team motivation

Guest Caliber

4 / 20

This is a solo monologue by a single speaker who is a trainer and consultant promoting a book - there is no guest at all. The speaker's only stated credentials are writing, training, and consulting, with no named organisations, scaled engagements, or leadership roles cited.

I am Kiu and this podcast is a companion to the book I wrote with Geryon
I always tell my clients that a, uh, great product owner will make the best even of a novice team

Specificity & Evidence

4 / 20

The only data point offered is the '75% of features nobody uses' stat, cited without attribution or source. All other evidence is personal anecdote (e.g., using 15% of a word processor) or generic illustration. No company names, dollar figures, real project timelines, or named case studies appear anywhere.

About 75% of features in a product nobody uses or seldom does
I know very few people who do use more than maybe 15% of what's in there

Conversational Craft

2 / 20

This is a scripted solo monologue with no interlocutor, no questions, no follow-ups, and no pushback whatsoever. The format structurally prevents any conversational craft; it reads as a narrated slide deck rather than a podcast interview.

Let's talk a little bit about something very common. They're called stretch goals
Let's talk about technical debt. What is technical debt? Not everybody knows what it means

Conversation analysis

Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.

Most-used words

product26owner9technical8debt8teams7ownership6team6owners5podcast4organization4features4scrum4goals4control4sprint4metascrum4

Episode notes

In episode eight, we dive into some practical tools for Product Owners in a company that practices Scrum@Scale.

Full transcript

11 min

Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Scaling Done Right podcast. I am Kiu and this podcast is a companion to the book I wrote with Geryon. So what are the attributes that you expect from a good product owner? I'll give you three. Empowered, available and qualified. There are many challenges to product ownership. In my experience, I see lots of organizations investing a considerable amount of time, people and resources in their product delivery teams and infrastructure. Far less effort is applied into the product organization that leads to an experienced product ownership. Large amounts of waste. About 75% of features in a product nobody uses or seldom does. Lots of decision latency. When the product owner is not empowered, he or she has to go ask the business what he or she can do. Invisible work, things that are not in the backlog, but they are being worked on. And of course that all leads to poor return on investment. It is unfortunately very common to see product owners being given a parachute and dropped into a war zone. Their only weaponry. Well, they can write user stories. I always tell my clients that a, uh, great product owner will make the best even of a novice team. But a bad product owner will make a great team. Produce stuff like I said before, that nobody wants to buy. There is also our obsession with output. Just because you have hundreds of features in a product, it doesn't mean that you are actually achieving the main outcome, which is to have happy customers. We should strive to achieve the maximum outcome with the minimum output. I'll give you an example. I write a lot. I create lots of slides. I'm a trainer and a consultant. And I am so surprised that I end up using just a few features of both my word processor and my slide creation tool. I think how much money was involved in creating those features that I don't use, others don't use. As a matter of fact, I know very few people who do use more than maybe 15% of what's in there. So again, we were too preoccupied with output and we forgot the outcomes. All these problems that I listed, they can be easily solved. That's because they are valuable tools and methods for product ownership. The bad news? Well, they don't seem to arrive when they're the most needed in the hand of the team. Product owners, those on the front lines, they often need those tools, but they feel left alone with the same old tools that do not get the job done. And because all these dysfunctions just grow exponentially at scale, we need an efficient, professional, empowered product owner organization that will understand how these things lead to poor return on investment, low levels of satisfaction and frustration. For the teams. While Scrum at scale creates a very efficient communication structure and ways to order, decompose and refine a product or portfolio products. Scaling the product ownership will not work without knowledge of proper techniques and and principles of product ownership and product management. Unfortunately, these are usually limited to a few individuals or completely missing even in large organizations. Let's talk a little bit about something very common. They're called stretch goals. They sound cool, right? Why not be courageous and try a bit more? Promise. Stretch goals is instead of motivating the teams, they will, over time eliminate the team motivation. It will not be long before this undue pressure will cause a drop in team happiness and therefore in quality. But you can bet that will increase technical depth. Strategy goals are just good old command and control. Instead of trusting a team or group of teams to do their best, let's apply pressure on them. Unfortunately, that will backfire because it's assuming that it's possible to control other people. A far better idea than stretch goals is to use yesterday's weather. If you're not familiar with that, yesterday's weather is basically pick up the number of points that you completed in the last sprint and use that to predict how many points you're going to deliver in the following sprint. For a good measure, take the average from the last three to five sprints. If you establish this pattern very early in the minds of stakeholders, you can avoid all these discussions later on. And uh, be aware, teams that finish early accelerate faster. So you're not only going to make everybody's life much easier, but also more productive. Let's talk about technical debt. What is technical debt? Not everybody knows what it means. Well, basically it's what gets created when we do things the quick and dirty way. Why do you care as a product owner? Well, because eventually, like any debt, you have to pay for it and that creates extra effort. In other words, it's going to slow you down. It's often said the problem is not that you have technical debt. The problem, like any debt, is you accumulate too much of it. So you're going to spend a lot of time in future development fixing things that should have been done right to start with. So let's emphasize that technical debt is anything that causes rework that applies to either software, hardware or any industry that's using Scrum. In engineering, it's important to stay focused on what we call first time. Right. And limit time spent on reviews and quality control. Technical debt can be inadvertent. We didn't know how to do better. If you are a product owner in the software industry, be very aware of postponing the fixing of defects. Every time you do that you are borrowing against your future velocity. If a uh, defect is detected during a sprint, don't even bother estimating it, just fix it. It's quick, simple and uh, it will increase the quality and the velocity. I always ask my product owners when they work in the software business, do you prioritize paying the technical debt? Do you support a strategic and regular code refactoring? Do you emphasize automated testing for your teams? Do you promote continuous integration and deployment? You foster things like pair programming, all those things product owners should be very aware of that they're being done. All of them reduce technical depth and therefore increase velocity let's talk about some of the Scaled Scrum events let's start with the metascrum event. The Meta Scrum is a meeting that takes place at least once every sprint. It's a forum where chief product owners meet with leadership and key stakeholders. Those stakeholders control the critical resources such as personnel, funding and who owns the customer relationship. The metascrum exists to align on priorities, preferences and budgets. The metascrum event is run by by a terminal chief product owner, the most senior product owner in the organization, and focuses on funding, aligning the enterprise around a single backlog and which products to create or retire. As a consequence of these decisions, the organization may also have to be refactored, with teams being moved to where they are needed the most. There is no set time box for the metascrum, but when you think that most organizations have a dismal state of strategic product ownership, it makes sense to have longer meetings so there can be enough depth to the strategic decision. If you liked this podcast and you want to learn more, you can order scaling done right@scalingdoneright.com or wherever books are sold. I hope you have enjoyed our podcast for consulting, training or coaching in Agile and Lean. You can reach out to kyu@raskere.com and to geryonflow.net thank you.

Related episodes across the Index

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  • Ep. 020: The Data-Backed Benefits of In-Person Development Teams | w/ Special Guest Geoff Vandegrift of Ad AstraOpen Source CXO: The Tech Leader's Podcast · on Continuous Integration80 / 100
  • S1E5 - Curating Innovation for FinTech Success - Alessandro HatamiTales from the #FinTech Crypt · on Technical debt77 / 100
  • CI/CD with Robert ErezThe Pragmatic Engineer · on Continuous Integration76 / 100

More from Gereon Hermkes

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  • Scaling Done Right 09: Deploy or Die57 / 100
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