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Index/HR/Gereon Hermkes
Gereon Hermkes artwork

Scaling Done Right 07: Where There Is Unity, There Is Victory

Gereon Hermkes · 2026-03-05 · 10 min

0:00--:--

Key moments - from our scoring

Substance score

15 / 100

Five dimensions, 20 points each

Insight Density5 / 20
Originality3 / 20
Guest Caliber2 / 20
Specificity & Evidence4 / 20
Conversational Craft1 / 20

Organizational coordination disorder - the failure of strategy to translate into execution - stems from misalignment between leadership intent and team execution. Kiu argues that business agility requires pushing decision-making to frontlines where context exists, but coupling that autonomy with a clear strategic harness. Scrum at Scale addresses this through the Executive Meta Scrum (EMS), a cross-functional leadership team led by a terminal Chief Product Owner that sets vision, prioritizes strategic initiatives, and decomposes work down to team-level user stories. The fractal structure of Chief Product Owners at multiple levels (CPO, Chief Chief PO, etc.) ensures coordination cascades through the organization without creating bottlenecks. Prioritization discipline is critical - Kiu recounts receiving 47 items marked 'priority one' out of 50, underscoring why leadership must rank rather than simply mark priorities. This framework enables organizations to respond to environmental changes like a single body, moving coherently toward shared intent rather than pulling in fragmented directions.

Key takeaways

  • →Organizational coordination disorder occurs when strategy fails to cascade into aligned team execution; Scrum at Scale's Executive Meta Scrum solves this by creating a single strategic backlog that flows to individual teams.
  • →Prioritization requires brutal discipline and ranking (not just marking items as priority) - leadership must decide which initiatives to fund and pursue, not attempt everything simultaneously.
  • →The fractal product owner structure (EMS → CPO → team PO) enables decentralized decision-making at frontlines while maintaining strategic alignment with leadership intent.
  • →Business agility is achieved only when teams understand and pull toward leadership's strategic vision, responding to market changes as a unified organism rather than fragmented parts.
  • →The Executive Meta Scrum composition should match its function (e.g., CFO for funding decisions, skip People Operations for operational matters) rather than following rigid naming or membership rules.

In this episode

  1. 1Understanding Organizational Coordination Disorder
  2. 2Decentralized Decision Making and Business Agility
  3. 3The Product Owner Cycle in Scrum at Scale
  4. 4Strategic Vision and Leadership Intent
  5. 5Strategic Backlog Prioritization and Discipline
  6. 6The Executive Meta Scrum Team Structure
  7. 7Scaling Product Ownership Across Teams
  8. 8Aligning Organizations Around Leadership Intention

Mentioned

Gereon HermkesKiuScrum at ScaleKennedy

Topics in this episode

Scrum at ScaleBusiness agilityproduct visionOrganizational coordination disorderExecutive Meta Scrum (EMS)Terminal Chief Product OwnerChief Product Owner (CPO)Strategic backlog prioritizationFractal organizational structureProduct owner hierarchy

Questions this episode answers

What is organizational coordination disorder and why does it happen?

OCD occurs when leadership devises strategy and allocates resources but execution fails to align with that strategy. Teams end up pulling in different directions or not moving at all because the connection between leadership intent and team-level work is broken.

How does Scrum at Scale prevent teams from misaligning with strategic intent?

Through the Executive Meta Scrum (EMS), which creates a single organizational backlog and decomposes strategic initiatives through multiple levels of Chief Product Owners down to individual team backlogs, ensuring every team's work traces back to leadership's vision.

What should the Executive Meta Scrum include, and who should lead it?

The EMS should include whoever is needed to execute its function - typically CFO, Chief Product Owner, and key strategic leaders. It is led by a terminal Chief Product Owner and its composition depends on context, not a rigid template.

Why is prioritization ranking better than marking items as priorities?

Marking multiple items as 'priority one' is meaningless and prevents true discipline; ranking forces leadership to make hard choices about which strategic initiatives actually matter most and deserve funding and focus.

How does the fractal product owner structure enable business agility?

By repeating the pattern of Chief Product Owners at each level of team-of-teams, frontline teams get decision-making authority and context while remaining aligned to strategic intent - enabling rapid, coordinated responses to market changes.

What our scoring noted

Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.

Insight Density

5 / 20

The episode is essentially a shallow explainer of the Scrum at Scale framework, repackaging well-documented concepts (EMS, Chief Product Owner hierarchy, backlog prioritization) with minimal novel insight. The one concrete moment - the 47-of-50 priorities anecdote - is the only non-obvious data point in the entire runtime.

I have some bad memories from a time past when out of a list of 50 priority items I got 47. 47 I kid you not marked as priority one.
By properly aligning the organization around leadership's intention, we avoid the organizational coordination disorder and we can move as one.

Originality

3 / 20

The episode leans entirely on recycled material: a well-worn Russian proverb, the ubiquitous Kennedy moon-shot quote, and a rebranded acronym ('OCD') for a pre-existing concept. There is no contrarian, first-principles, or counterintuitive argument anywhere in the transcript.

There is a Russian proverb that says if you chase two rabbits, you'll not catch either one.
Think about Kennedy, early 60s. We will land a man on the moon and return him safely to the earth.

Guest Caliber

2 / 20

There is no guest - this is a solo monologue by a host who is transparently promoting a co-authored book and their consulting business. No practitioner credentials, company background, or demonstrated at-scale experience are presented.

this podcast is a companion to the book I wrote with Geryon
for consulting, training or coaching in Agile and Lean. You can reach out to kyo@raskere.com and to geryon@teamflow.net

Specificity & Evidence

4 / 20

The only concrete data point is the anecdotal '47 out of 50 priorities marked priority one' memory; everything else is abstract framework description with no named companies, measured outcomes, timelines, or dollar figures. The Kennedy quote is used as a vision example but provides zero operational evidence.

out of a list of 50 priority items I got 47. 47 I kid you not marked as priority one
The Chief Chief Chief Product Owner of a Scrum of Scrums of Scrums of scrums might work on decomposing a product into components

Conversational Craft

1 / 20

This is a pure solo monologue with no guest, no questions, no follow-ups, and no challenge to any claim. There is zero conversational craft to evaluate; it functions as a short audio brochure for a book and consulting service.

Hello and welcome to the Scaling Done Right podcast. I am Kiu, and this podcast is a companion to the book I wrote with Geryon.
If you liked this podcast and you want to learn more, you can order Scaling done right@scalingdoneright.com or wherever books are sold.

Conversation analysis

Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.

Most-used words

product20team17teams14organization13owner13leadership12chief11vision10scrum10podcast5initiatives5decision4making4achieve4agility4scale4

Episode notes

In this episode, we talk about why alignment is the critical ingredient in business agility that many companies lack and how to achieve it with Scrum@Scale.

Full transcript

10 min

Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Scaling Done Right podcast. I am Kiu, and this podcast is a companion to the book I wrote with Geryon. Let's talk a little bit about ocd. Um, not that one. By OCD I mean organizational coordination disorder. What do I mean by that is? Leadership puts enormous amount of effort in devising strategies that will enable the organization to thrive, well, survive. They lay out those big visions and it's almost painful to behold. They gather all sorts of resources to make that vision a reality and, and they try their best to support that endeavor. So what happens? Well, you probably know the answer, right? If you're lucky, nothing. If you're not lucky, probably some really bad stuff. But overall, that's the result. One would be forgiven for thinking this is what decentralized decision making would look like. But that's the opposite of what we want. We want to to push decision making as far as possible to the front lines. Because it's only there that enough context and bandwidth exist to make quick and appropriate decisions. However, we also need a harness that ensures that the decentralized decision making aligns, uh, with what the organization is aiming to achieve. Moving in unit becomes even more urgent if we truly aim to achieve business agility. It is only when we can harmonize the decentralized decision making in the teams with the intent of senior leadership that we can achieve real business agility. Imagine an organization that moves like your body. You hear unexpected noise in the environment, your whole body turns into that direction to assess, uh, the situation and address possible threats. How great would be if your organization did the same? Isn't it flexibility? Reacting to changes in the environment without friction, discussion or delay. Just a seamless, unnatural, uh, response. Would that not be true agility? This is the promise of Scrum at scale. And it's easy to grasp how powerful business agility is. In Scrum at scale, several components of the product owner cycle work together to achieve this objective. Leadership sets a strategic vision where it would like to see the organization go. Guided by that vision, the same leadership team then prioritizes its strategic initiatives at a very high level. The most important ones are then decomposed, um, and refined over several steps that will result into ready user stories that the teams can work on. This process is critical in connecting leadership with the teams doing the work. Without it, teams will not be pulling in the same direction. And even worse, they may not be pulling at all or pulling in opposite directions. Everything should start with uh, a vision. Think about Kennedy, early 60s. We will land a man on the moon and return him safely to the earth. Big Vision it lays where leadership sees the organization in a couple years is a reflection of ambition, context of markets, competition and environment. The fact is vision is needed to harmonize leadership intent and merely engaging on the process of developing a vision is often very beneficial. Let's talk a little bit about strategic backlog prioritization. There is a Russian proverb that says if you chase two rabbits, you'll not catch either one. With a AH vision in hand, leadership has now to prioritize the strategic initiatives that will allow the organization to realize that vision. That's where leadership tends to fail. It's very common to see dozens, if not hundreds of products and initiatives to be pursued at the same time. Prioritization requires a lot of discipline and is very hard to do no matter if you are a frontline product owner or a product manager at the very top. I have some bad memories from a time past when out of a list of 50 priority items I got 47. 47 I kid you not marked as priority one. Since that day I have been adamant about not using the word prioritization. I prefer ordering or ranking at the highest level of the product owner organization. There is a SCRUM team named EMS Executive Meta Scrum and that team is led by a terminal Chief Product owner. The Executive metascrum is what we meant by all the references to leadership early in this podcast. The EMS creates the overarching product vision and generates a single backlog for the whole organization. From that backlog product flows all the way to individual teams. The EMS team is the most influential in all of Scrum at scale. They decide which products to launch and which ones to retire. They also decide on funding the initiatives and products as well as refactoring in the organization so those priorities can be achieved. Who should be part of the EMS depends entirely on its function and your specific context. By now, since you have more insight on what the EMS is responsible for, it becomes clearer. Who should be on it? Do we need the Chief Financial Officer on the team? Absolutely, as financing the initiatives is critical. Should we have People Operations HR leadership on the team? Maybe not. It would probably make more sense for the Head of People operations to be in the EAT Executive Action team. It's also important to note once more that we're not really married to the naming convention. Use the name that works better for you. I have encountered things such as AH Portfolio Team, Executive Product Team. As long as the function is being performed, the naming is up to you. We now know that the highest instance of the product owner organization is the EMS which is a cross functional team being led by the terminal Chief Product owner. At the other end of the spectrum, the role of the team product owner has not changed. They're still responsible for setting priorities, managing the backlog and being the non stable interface of the team towards the stakeholders. Due to the fractal nature of Scrum at scale, every team of teams also is a Scrum team and therefore is going to need a product owner. That product owner will coordinate the work of all of the teams in his or her team of teams and that product owner is referred as the Chief Product Owner cpo. We can repeat this pattern as many times as needed to either add a team or teams of teams. The larger the organization and the higher the Chief PO is in the network of teams, the broader the view where the Chief PO of a Scrum of Scrums team of teams might work with his or her product owners to decompose epics into user stories. The Chief Chief Chief Product Owner of a Scrum of Scrums of Scrums of scrums might work on decomposing a product into components to what we have seen on the Scrum Master side. Since we are talking about the same teams after all, we will have product owners with increasing levels of teams. These are often denoted as Chief Chief product owner or level 2PO or PO2. As always you may use different names as long as the function is fulfilled. By properly aligning the organization around leadership's intention, we avoid the organizational coordination disorder and we can move as one. If you liked this podcast and you want to learn more, you can order Scaling done right@scalingdoneright.com or wherever books are sold. I hope you have enjoyed our podcast for consulting, training or coaching in Agile and Lean. You can reach out to kyo@raskere.com and to geryon@teamflow.net. thank you.

Related episodes across the Index

Other episodes covering the same guests and topics, from across The B2B Podcast Index.

  • AA255 - What is Business Agility? The 5 Core Capabilities to MasterArguing Agile · on Business agility68 / 100
  • Business Agility in Finance: How CFOs Can Thrive in Volatility and UncertaintyThe CFO Show · on Business agility57 / 100
  • How to Create a Truly Inspiring Product VisionRoman's Product Management Podcast · on product vision50 / 100
  • Episode 35: Why Governance is the Future of Consultancy with Cantekin ErtekinConsulting Lifestyle · on Business agility37 / 100
  • Michael Murphy on Transforming Business Agility with ADAPTOVATEB2B Automation Spotlight · on Business agility
  • Grit, the vision bottleneck & building for a future where today’s technical constraints may disappear w/ Chrystal Henke Ball #232The Engineering Leadership Podcast · on product vision

More from Gereon Hermkes

All episodes →
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  • Scaling Done Right 11: Distributed Teams48 / 100
  • Scaling Done Right 10: Things That Go "Bump!" in the Night50 / 100
  • Scaling Done Right 09: Deploy or Die57 / 100
  • Scaling Done Right 08: Product Ownership in Scrum@Scale41 / 100
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