Peer-to-Peer… with Ewen MacPherson

Speaker A: People essentially limit their focus to trying to build resilience as a standalone muscle, but it's not a single muscle to work on, at least not from a cultural perspective. I think you need to be thinking about all those synergist muscles in the system that help develop the resilience. So for me, that's the innate things like trust, transparency, goodwill, accountability, the consistency of experience that your people have. Uh, I think all those things work together in the system to create and strengthen organizational resilience.

Speaker B: Hello, you're listening to Peer to Peer. I'm Julia Pauldean, Chief People Officer at Lewis Silkin. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Ewan M. McPherson, group chief people officer at Havas. Havas is one of the world's largest global communications groups with around 23,000 employees worldwide, including three and a half thousand employees across the UK and Ireland. Ewan, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. How are you today?

Speaker A: I'm great. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Um, you've been at Havas for quite a while now. If you rewind to the start and look at your journey since you joined, what moments really stand out and what's kept you excited about the work over the years?

Speaker A: Um, well, I think there's two main things about HAVAS that stood out to me from the start. Firstly, it was the level of creativity and innovation that just generally ran through the business. I came to Havas from Universal Pictures, which is part of NBCUniversal. And I remember they had a really nice global innovation program there that at the time of my leaving, had contributed something like $3 million in revenue for NBC. And then I arrived at Havas and what was happening here, like, completely blew that out of the water in a matter of days. The things we do with data, targeted ads, experiential activations, the ideas and strategies that inform the work, like, you name it, it's incredible. And that's not just Havas, to be fair, but, you know, what happens across the industry is. Is pretty amazing. And the other thing is, is cultural, I think, is quite unique to Havas. There was a real culture of generosity, both in the openness of people to give their time and share their ideas, but also that showed up externally. I always tell people about a moment that hadn't happened very long after I joined, and that if you remember back to early 2015, there was a catastrophic earthquake in Nepal. Um, and it was horrendous. Like, something like 30,000 people were killed or injured. Millions were displaced as a result. And I Remember, without any kind of conversation outside or any kind of prompting that I was aware of, Havas responded like really quickly with significant financial support to aid the humanitarian efforts and sent thousands of blankets over to Nepal, you know, within a matter of a couple of weeks. And I'd never worked somewhere that responded to something happening in the world in that kind of way before. And that still feels true today. There's a bit of a zeitgeisty quote being bandied around at the moment that I really like that a value isn't a value unless it costs you something. And I've seen multiple examples in my time here where, uh, where our values have cost us something. And I think that's, you know, it's really impressive and something that stands out for us. And I think just generally, like you said, I've been here quite a while, so 11 years actually and counting. And even in that time I've had four distinctly different roles that themselves have evolved during their 10 years. I've been part of nine or 10 significant acquisitions, we've reinvented several legacy businesses along the way, and we've launched some market and industry leading programs and benefits. So it feels like I've worked at several different companies during my time in a good way.

Speaker B: So there's a real theme of sort of innovation change and even in your role change. And when we step back, uh, and it reflects more generally, even in the past few years, the pace and scale of change in all of our working environments is really striking, isn't it? Yeah. And the business landscape is becoming increasingly complex and uncertain too. I suppose it's clear just how much expectations on hr, or to me on HR professionals, are evolving as a result as well. Looking forward now, how do you see our role as people professionals continuing to change over the coming years?

Speaker A: I think that's a topic for several podcasts, isn't it? Um, in terms of the pace. Well, I guess to paraphrase Bill Gates, I think we always overestimate the change that occurs in the short term and then underestimate the change that will occur in the long term. And for sure it's getting faster and the volume of change is increasing and technology is a massive driver of that. But I think probably nothing happens at the speed the world will try to tell you. Most of the time anyway. AI might actually be the exception. But even still, I think most of that urgency narrative is probably driven by people trying to whip you into a frenzy to buy their latest book. So I think, I think calmness and consideration are watchwords of the day during increased times of turbulence, you know, like go slow to go fast and all that. So. But I think in terms of trying to do the crystal ball exercise, it just reminds me about a presentation I saw once that said anyone that says they know what the future of work looks like is lying. So I don't want to be a liar. I try and speak with too much certainty. But, uh, I've used the chess analogy before to talk about HR strategic value, which I think is probably relevant. So if you think, if you think of an organization like a game of chess and then HR's role as the queen on the chessboard. All pieces on a chessboard are restricted to their individual patterns of movement. Like a pawn only moves forwards in a set pattern, the bishop kind of forwards and backwards, diagonally or whatever. But the queen can move wherever she likes and pretty much however she likes as well. And no, no other discipline or role can move as freely through an organization in the way that HR can. Maybe the CEO or commercial finance, FPA finance type of role to a degree, but even then, not to the depth on a human level that HR can. And we need to leverage disability and move freely a hell of a lot more than I think we do within our profession in the moment. On the daily, it helps to enhance thinking, make connections in different and better ways, and can unlock powerful insights. But I think the really relevant part, thinking about what the future looks like, is that you also win at chess by outthinking your opponent. The more moves ahead you can think and the more scenarios you can anticipate, the more likely you are to win. So I don't know how our, uh, role will change, but to keep ahead of it, I think an important thing to remember is that strategic HR business partnering flexes exactly the same muscles as chess. So if we're focusing on the moves and the scenarios ahead in a calm and considered way, then we'll be in the best place of readiness we possibly can be for however it does evolve.

Speaker B: I really like that analogy. And it's that uniqueness of our roles as well that join on that and having to do different things in a way that others can't. So I know that Havas is involved in the Workstyle monitor, a study with King's College London looking at how autonomy, trust and ways of working shape wellbeing, productivity, and also inclusion over time. There's so much to explore with that, but I'd really like to pick up on the wellbeing aspect today and in our own, um. Louis Silkin Future of Work Report. Earlier this year we looked at what forward looking organisations are doing to build more resilient foundations to navigate uncertainty, um, that we've been talking about and meet future challenges. What stood out to us was a relatively small group taking a much broader approach to wellbeing, looking beyond benefits to things like work, design, culture, autonomy, leadership capability and organizational trust. Can you tell me a bit about what HAVAS has been doing in this space and why?

Speaker A: So we've had a formal wellbeing strategy and program in some shape or form since probably early 2016. So it's, it's been around for almost as long as me and the majority of this is brought to life through our main UK program called have Us Equalize, which has been recognized as market leading with several awards over the years. We love it and it's something that people regularly refer to as sort of one of the standout things in terms of our overall people experience. It's a very holistic program so at its core is the principle of taking a preventative approach to wellness. So for example, we have a mental health day allowance that's designed to be used in addition to normal leave and really it's for, to be used for our, by our people to preempt when they might need to take a recharge moment. So if they know they're going into a particularly busy period of new business, for example, they might then book themselves a day at the end of it to kind of decompress or recharge rather than wait until they're at breaking point and then need to take time off. And the program also provides for, I guess really broad, just in time support for reactive needs as well as a huge range of always on in person online sessions, plus all the usual stuff you'd expect to find like an EAP and counseling and that kind of stuff. But yes, to your point, we bring this conversation to life at a strategic leadership level through our slightly different approach to MI reporting. Rather than blindly sending an MI report or giving access to a metrics dashboard, we have a more rounded people report that starts with a strategy session in a room with the leadership of that particular business before we've even shared a single metric. So the session sort of mirrors the way that a uh, that a chemistry or tissue session would with our clients. So they're familiar with the format and the session really focuses on our strategic people commitments, which wellbeing is one of them. We put all the data up on a wall, we walk them around, we sort of workshop the ideas, test Hypotheses, look at correlations and discuss what the meaning might be behind some of those. And then, only then does the report come out afterwards as a summary of that conversation, including the insights and then okrs for the year. So it becomes a bit of an accountability document as well. And so we're always trying to think about how we can level up what we do in that kind of way rather than just to build on our have a sequelised program rather than just have it ticking along. And the Workstyle monitor is a good, is a good example of that as well. So the Work Style monitors a survey based five year longitudinal study that aims to understand, as you say, how autonomy, trust and ways of working shape wellbeing, productivity and inclusion over time. So we're engaged with the project primarily to understand better what this might mean for our business and people right now. But to your point around designing work around the whole person. But it's also super interesting to look at through a future of workloads as well.

Speaker B: Absolutely. It really resonates, you know, this idea of um, a shift away from um, generic wellbeing benefits towards sort of more holistic support for people's uh, wider life. It really resonates with other conversations I've had in this podcast series too. It seems like we're starting to sort of move forward in this, in this way. So standard with that idea of designing work around the whole person rather than treating wellbeing as something separate. I do think it's hard for organizations and leaders to navigate so much ongoing change and uncertainty. Especially all the different series of shocks we've had in recent years. The pandemic, rising cost of living, geopolitical uncertainty. I understand that Hamza has been really publicly taken an increasingly human centered approach to addressing these challenges. Can you tell us what this looks like and why you think it's important for organisations to take this kind of approach?

Speaker A: I guess it's back to that saying that a value isn't a value until it costs you something. Something I think we're particularly good at, ah, that I'm really proud of is our uh, general philosophy to employee experience and how we try to make that experience as meaningful as possible for people and as close to the individual level as possible. Obviously the bigger you get as an organization the harder that uh, challenge becomes. But this idea of mass personalization, but I think the closest you can get to meeting or addressing the individual needs of people, you know, the closer you get to that, I guess utopia of inclusion, well being and um, performance and productivity as well, and I think the mental health days are a really simple example of that. You know, we don't, we don't just shut our business down on World Mental Health Day for as a token effort, like we trust our people to use their mental health days in the way that best supports their individual need when they individually need it. You mentioned the pandemic. Uh, I think our approach to furlough during that time was also a particularly human one. I think, you know, we're in a position financially where we were able to do it, which I appreciate may not have been the case for everybody, but for anyone that we had to furlough, we topped up their salaries or topped up the salaries of our most financially vulnerable people to a true 80% rather than stop at the cap that the job retention scheme provided for. If you, if anyone can remember that far back, it still got scars. But also, you know, for other employees furloughed, uh, we had a tier top up approach by job level to minimize the impact as much as we could for people that we had to kind of bring in and out of the business during that time. And yeah, as you said, you know, the cost of living, when the cost of living crisis really escalated, we introduced a comprehensive support package, a cost of living allowance for our most vulnerable and impacted people. Tax free cost of living loans, a lot of extra focus in, in the wellbeing program around financial planning and budget money coaching. We had free lunches in our offices for nearly two years, things like that. So I mean, ultimately, you know, as I say, we were in a financial position where we were lucky enough to be able to take that approach with, with furlough. And so different companies will come at these challenges in different ways based on what's possible for them. But that's the most important point. I think that, you know, the extent to what's possible is down to you as an organization to define. But I would say that creating whatever the best version of that, uh, within your own context is what you should be doing. And if you're being open and transparent with your people about what's possible and how you're applying that best version, then that builds trust over time. Even if your best version isn't fully meeting everyone's needs, at least you're talking about it openly and you're sharing that possibility and how you're, how you're trying to, trying your best to meet the

Speaker B: needs and create that really truly excellent employee experience as well. Which is why I think lots of us do the job that we do, which can be difficult sometimes. Thank you. So again, with all the uncertainty, we come back to this, um, subject of uncertainty and change. And so with all this uncertainty and transition we're seeing, as well as supporting their employees, organizations are under real pressure, under pressure to build resilient workforces, ones that can adapt to new challenges, including the impact of AI on jobs and tasks. And in that context there's been a lot of discussion about skills based organizational models. So moving away from traditional roles and qualifications towards a greater focus on people's skills and capabilities and using these more flexibly. And what's your perspective on that shift and what has havos been doing in this area?

Speaker A: I think it's definitely shifting, particularly in the wake of the AI conversation. Obviously I think that the human skills will become more and more valuable as, as we rely on, on AI or, and, or automate more and more, particularly in the kind of agentic space. But we're, you know, we're looking at this as well. So I'm leading a project globally at the moment to, to build what this skills based journey is for us. It might sound a bit boring at first because you're building job architecture and talking about job families, but once those foundations are in place, the opportunity becomes more exciting because it should unlock higher internal mobility and that's, there's an obvious commercial benefit there. It should enable fairer and more equitable pathways to career opportunities, including longer term opportunities into leadership positions. And it will help to give people more confidence in the midst of the AI conversation because it moves the focus further away from looking at jobs that can be cut to what the skills are, uh, that we need for the future, you know, and that's where those more human skills will come in I think. You know, AI can do jobs and tasks, but it's not skilled in the broad way a human is obviously, or a human can be. And for us as an industry particularly, you know, we're talking about uh, adaptability and true creativity and creative problem solving, critical thinking, all these things are absolutely essential for the creative industries. My old boss used to say we're nothing but a building full of people. So we're, we're looking at that and investing a lot in that space.

Speaker B: There's a lot of talk, talk about the impact on early careers as well or sort of layered onto that. So we've got a labor market where skills are changing quickly and organizations are thinking hard about future leadership. You're doing the work that you're doing. How are you approaching specifically early uh, careers and succession at Hablas.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's certainly challenges for M career candidates right now. Uh, and I think if, you know, if it is largely driven by AI, going back to the underestimation of changes, impact on the long term, I reckon we're potentially sleepwalking into a skills crisis. And from our perspective, the simplest thing to say is that we're focusing on trying to get the balance between the technical requirements and upskilling from a tools and tech perspective because we are heavily, heavily engaged and invested in AI, like most businesses, but then we're also looking at the human skills and qualities that AI can't bring. So, you know, it speaks volumes. M. I think one of the providers we partner with to deliver some of this is called philosophy at work. So the things we're focusing on alongside the tech and tools are, uh, expansive and critical thinking, curiosity, decision making. So everything the liberal arts teach, as we say, will be much more valuable as our use of AI increases. And I say liberal arts, but university education certainly isn't the only pathway to those skills or capabilities. For example, we really see this coming through strongly in our, uh, internship program. So we run an internship called Havas Platform, which is one of our flagship DNI programs actually. And we bring in 10 interns a quarter on six month internships. And there are no education or professional experience prerequisites for that program. So given there's no barrier to entry, we see, you know, a much more diverse candidate pool. And these people are amazing. Like they bring so much to our business and we have a 50% conversion rate into permanent roles. So that tells you about the quality and experiences that those people are bringing. And the work style monitor, again, back to that. Like, this also has implications on future talent pipelines. If we're opening up new pathways to work for structurally excluded groups, then that's another strong way to access talent that can bring different thinking.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's good to talk about all the positives of all the changes that are going on. Really. Something like that. So. So sadly, we're coming to the end of our time. Always goes too quickly. So before I let you go though, uh, I, I wonder if I could ask you a few quick fire questions to get some instinctive thoughts from you on how, um, the world of work is changing or you think it could change in the future. Okay, so if I can ask you to just give the first answer that comes to mind or a couple of words for each, um, would be fine. So the first thing I wanted to ask you is, what do you think is the most underrated risk organizations are sleepwalking into right now.

Speaker A: I would say the ongoing rapid shift of the expectations of people.

Speaker B: In three words, describe Havas future workforce.

Speaker A: Awesome.

Speaker B: Like today, name one human skill that will matter more because of AI critical thinking. And name one thing organizations should stop calling a perk.

Speaker A: Well, this is a real bon bear of mine, so I can't do it in one word, but I think you see jobs advertised with benefits like 25 days holiday plus bank holidays or, or an EAP or regular company socials. I think those types of things are so basic they should be considered standard, not standout. Uh, like I think a company's benefits and perks are billboard for the type of employer they are or aspire to be, so you got to advertise accordingly. So I'd kill. I'd kill all of those I called perks or stop talking about them.

Speaker B: Anyway, it's been fantastic having you here to share your insights and experiences. Um, before I let you go, I finally want to ask you the question that I'm going to be asking all of my podcast guests this year. And that is, what's one piece of advice you'd give to leaders who want to strengthen their organization's future resilience in the face of so much constant change?

Speaker A: Georgia and my team hates it when I use analogies, but I can't help myself. I think the whole idea of resilience is like muscle strength training. Like, you've got agonist muscles that create the specific M movement M, but you've also got synergist muscles that then support that movement. So if you're doing squats, you know, in the gym to build your thigh muscles, you also need to be thinking about your cards or your hamstrings or your abs or whatever. I'm not a personal trainer. Whatever. Other muscles help us squat, but I think resilience is like that. So, as in, I think people essentially limit their focus to trying to build resilience as a standalone muscle, but it's not a single muscle to work on, at least not from a cultural perspective. I think you need to be thinking about all those synergist muscles in the system that help develop the resilience. So for me, that's the innate things like trust, transparency, goodwill, accountability, the consistency of experience that your people have. I think all those things work together in the system to create and strengthen organizational resilience. So you need to look at it more.

Speaker B: What a brilliant way to end, uh, our conversation. Thank you very much and thanks to everyone for listening to peer to peer. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe on your favorite platform. And if you're a senior people leader with thoughts on the future of work, we'd love to hear from you. Until next time, goodbye.