Chris Zimmerman - Building an Empire From Roofing to AI

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fromthegroundupshow.com. So today I'm pretty excited. I have Mr.

Chris Zimmerman joining me. He runs a number of businesses. Starting with a very successful roofing company that has spun off into a few different things, including a testing laboratory and a new AI company called Gladstone. As well as being a successful businessman, Chris is a husband, a father, and a follower of Jesus.

So Chris, thanks for joining me. Yeah, absolutely, man. I'm excited. I'm happy to be here.

Awesome. Well, we will dive right in. The first thing we like to do with every show is just learn a little bit about you. So can you tell us a little bit about your life growing up and ~ what got you to where you are today?

Yeah, I often have said that I'm like the most blessed person that's ever been. I had a really good ~ upbringing. My dad and I were very, very close. He's passed away, unfortunately.

But you know, I grew up in a pretty standard Midwest ~ household. I'm born in Michigan, but we moved when I was about four years old to Cincinnati, Ohio, and that's where I've been ever since. I have a brother and sister that are older, took very good care of me. So a really good strong family unit.

~ When I being the youngest and I was the youngest by a decent bit, you know, my dad had a lot more money, you know, ~ that then my brother got to come up with. And so my brother went to public school. My sister went to public school until high school. And then she went to like a Catholic all girls school and I got sent to private school in the fourth grade and ~ You know, life's been honestly pretty easy.

There's a lot of guys, especially in roofing, that have trauma and difficult backgrounds and things like that. And I'm very sympathetic to that. ~ But, you know, I was a fortunate one and I had a really good, like I said, family unit and upbringing, a good education. I did go to college.

I was not the most studious guy out there. I missed a lot of classes. I had a lot of fun in college, but I did get a degree. ~ And ~ bounced around a bit in my 20s, came back to the trade, so to speak.

And I opened at your service really as a remodeling company in 2005 and was doing more kitchens, baths, basements, things like that. And then it was really around somewhere in the 2010 to 2012 range where I kind of came back to the business and it transitioned in the roofing. And I've had a lot of different businesses over my life. My first one, I think I was about 13.

And I currently still have quite a few businesses and, but had been in, in, ~ really kind of dedicated to the roofing industry since, you know, roughly 2010, 2011, somewhere in there. And I've kind of found a home here in the roofing industry. Well, you mentioned there you said you came back to the trades. Is that something that you grew up with?

Was your dad in the trades as well? So my dad was really a pioneer in the single family real estate investor realm. And back then, you this is the, the 1980s, the 1990s, there were things called assumable mortgages, where if somebody was, didn't want their home anymore, a buyer didn't have to go get their own financing and buy the house. could assume that person's mortgage, just take over the payments.

And so he was a very early adopter in that and did pretty darn well. ~ But he always had, you know, houses that as a tenant moved out needed to be fixed up. And so he had a crew of guys that were with him for about 15 years doing all of those rehabs. And when he retired from the real estate game, he really kind of felt bad.

What am I going to do with this crew? They've been relying on me for 15 years for work. So he opened up a roofing and remodeling company really as a side hustle. It wasn't a really an income driver for him.

It was really just to keep that crew busy. So at that point I was in high school and college and so I would work there in my winter breaks and summer breaks and things like that. So I grew up in and around those. ~ I'm a real estate investor myself and for my early years in that I was doing my own rehabs and so I've been in and around the trades a long time but that was never something I wanted to do.

went to, like I said, I had a good education. I went to a good school and really saw myself more in the world of finance and investing and things like that. So I had the company in 2005. I stepped away for a year or two just to try my hand at some different things.

~ Most of those were failures ~ or mild successes at best. And ~ really then what brought me back in and I get this question a lot, like what brought you to roofing? I say jokingly, but it's true. you know, desperation, which is probably what brings a lot of guys into the roofing space.

So, you know, I don't think there's a lot of little boys dreaming about one day being a roofer. And ~ so when I came back to it, Ha ha ha. I had really good success. And the money was honestly just too good to really draw my attention anywhere else.

And then I really fell in love with it and have enjoyed a career in the roofing industry and all of the different things that I've been able to do. But that's kind of what What brought me back? Okay, and you mentioned a college education and kind of having your eye elsewhere. What kind of a degree did you get?

What did you go to school for? So I went to Denison University, which is a small liberal arts school about a half hour east of Columbus, Ohio. And it's a good school. I graduated with a degree in economics.

And a lot of people ask like, well, did that translate well to running a business and things like that? And it probably could have. To be quite honest, I wanted to go to school for business administration or some of these types of things and then got there and they didn't really have that major, which shows you how much research I did. And I remember sitting down at like orientation with like a counselor and they said, well, the closest thing we have to that would be economics.

And I said, okay, well, what are the credit requirements? And they said, it's actually got the fewest credit requirements of any major, offered. And I went, sign me up. That's I'm done.

That's the one for me. And so ~ You know, I did OK in school. ~ I was always a B student. ~ I did just enough work to keep my parents off my back to graduate, get my piece of paper, my diploma and have a, you know, put as little effort as I could into it.

~ And so, but yeah, but you know, I do have a very good education. I went to a really good private school here in Cincinnati and then then Denison. Well, I know we talked about it a little bit ~ in your intro. You alluded to it there.

You run a number of different businesses. Could you run us through the list real quick? What all do you have your fingers in? So, ~ let's see.

So I've had at your service roofing for, for 20 years or 21 now, ~ we're headquartered in Cincinnati, Ohio. We have a branch in Cleveland, Ohio that we just opened. ~ it's about a year and a half ago and that's gone very well. And because of how well that's gone, I think we have the opportunity to launch, ~ branches.

And I think that we're going to start expanding. ~ we're not committed to that plan, but I, I envision adding one or two locations, probably a year for the next couple of years here. Okay. And so that's really the been the primary driver.

But about three years ago, a guy by the name of John C. Nack, who if you're in the roofing industry, especially on the restoration side, I would imagine you know that name. He reached out to me and we met and he asked me to speak at one of his events and that went really well. So he asked me to speak at a few more.

And the next thing you know, over the course of a winter, I probably did 10 or 15 events with him and On the way home from one of those, said, you know, John, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it, but I'm, this would be my last one. And he said, well, what are you going to do? What about all these people that you've met that want more content from you?

They want more information. They're asking you to consult for them or mentor them. And I said, well, I'm going to put together, I'll probably just do a thing by zoom and charge, you know, a pretty light fee and all just do a training or two a month. And I'll do it kind of that way.

And John got real quiet. And I thought that I kind of pissed him off to be quite honest. And he said, well, you know, that's a pretty good idea. Do you want to do it together?

And I said, sure. And that conversation that that that bore a company called Master your craft. And so Master your craft is a consulting company. And we do a lot of different things.

But at the core, it's an online community of roofers. And our mission is to create a community of like minded contractors committed to protecting homeowners and running a good clean business. So we do three trainings every month. In fact, I just got off of one about an hour ago.

Then we have ~ Unit 5, which is another company that John and I started, which is an ice impact testing laboratory. And that is something that I'm really excited about. ~ are collecting just a mountain of data about products and how they survive ~ impacts. the age of the shingle is relevancy, the decking where you're learning so much that's never been really discovered or looked at before.

And ~ actually, you know, originally, we were going to market this product to contractors, where they could take a shingle off the roof that they felt was hail damage. And maybe the insurance company said it wasn't sent it to us, we could perform testing and then give some pretty good evidence back. And we do actually do that. But we've really found a lot more in the testing on the manufacturer side.

So there are very well known shingle manufacturers that have us testing their products. We actually have a couple of kind of proprietary things that nobody really else has that we're able to look at. So that's been really cool. Another one that we just really launched, we just did our soft launch about a month ago is an AI platform and AI software.

The easiest way I can describe it is that John and I and a couple other core people have downloaded our brains into a closed AI and it streamlines communications for roofing, you know, contractors out there. We spend a tremendous amount of time writing emails to our customers, maybe to an insurance adjuster, to whoever. And John and I have been training and teaching guys for a long time. And a lot of those guys understand the content, they grasp it, but they still have trouble communicating it.

Yeah. And so now that software is able to basically I say, imagine if John and I wrote every single email for your company, ~ how much quicker you could onboard new sales reps, get them up to speed, how much time you would save. So that's one that I'm really spearheading. And so it took us about a year, year and a half to develop that.

We went through beta testing for about four months, which is great because we can take it right to the master aircraft community of contractors and get great feedback. And then we did a soft launch about a month ago. We've got about a hundred active users. We've got a wait list of about 300.

That might be more like 400 now. And we are planning a target of a full launch on July 1, where anybody will be able to go in and register an account, get onboarded and start using that product. I also own TrueNorth Solutions, which the best way to describe that as a standard kind of supplement company. Which I've not pushed it was more of a test market a test run and we learned a lot and it's there But it's not really fully functional ~ I have My real estate investing and then I the last thing I have is kind of my own consulting brand I'm all part of the Owens Corning University.

And so I signed with Owens Corning last year They had me in about 30 to 40 different cities over that year teaching roofers to do what I do I teach five different classes for them currently. And so I also do a lot of private trainings where a, another roofing company will, will have me in. I'll come on site. do a couple of onboarding calls.

come in on site, spend a day. ~ and that's on a wide variety of different things that could be on, ~ retail sales, restoration sales, culture, hiring, recruiting, all kinds of different things. ~ and so that keeps me on. pretty busy.

also try to stay married, raise my four boys, coach football, do some other, know, try to, you know, actually have a hobby or two, which is pretty tough these days. man, yeah it sounds like maybe the only thing you don't do is sleep. Luckily, I really don't require a ton of sleep. you ~ You know, there are these guys out there, these anomalies that they only need like an hour to sleep.

And I wish that was me, but I can function pretty good on about five hours. ~ So, you know, Okay. I will say that, you know, there's some there's some gray in this facial hair now and hitting before 40. It was unlimited energy.

I said this to a friend of mine. He was we were all hanging out and he goes, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna call it the night and head home. And I said, well, you don't want to hang out. He goes, I'm really tired.

And I remember thinking, no, you just you'd rather you're choosing to go home and like, go to bed. And it hit me after I turned 40. I didn't really understand what the word tired meant. I just had this like unlimited energy.

And so now I'm 45. And for the last, you know, four or five years, I've had to be a little bit more measured. have to really think about where I'm putting my energy and where I'm spending it. But, um, I also find that the more that I do, the more energized I am and I get bored very easily.

So it's working so far. Okay, well you mentioned you had a few other businesses or careers that you tried before coming back to roofing. Can you tell us about some of those? ~ when I was my dad was a very sharp guy and he and I were very, very close.

And when he sent me to private school, he would drive me there. So it was a half hour there and a half hour home every single day. And he was really teaching me and grooming me for business and entrepreneurship. And so I went to him at 13.

I was a freshman in high school. And I was always very young for my September birthday. So I was always very young for my my grade. And I said, Dad, everybody's playing paintball.

I want to play paintball. And he goes, great. Yeah, that sounds awesome. And I said, OK, well, a setup, a gun, a mask, an air tank.

It's like fifteen hundred dollars. And this is back in like the early 90s. And he goes, well, I'm not paying for that, but I'll show you how you can pay for that. And so we got a wholesaler license and which which.

I could buy direct from a wholesaler at about 40 % off retail. And then I would go and sell all of that to my buddies at, you know, kind of split the markup and very quickly earned enough money. And so that was my first business. When I was 16, he bought me a little Ford Ranger, a trailer and some lawn equipment.

And, you know, I had to pay him back for those things, but I was knocking doors at 16, you know, can I cut your lawn? ~ had some ~ other cheese trying to even think of all of them. had one that was on ~ dealing with travel agents ~ and basically a lending tree had come out years ago where if you needed a mortgage, you filled out the thing on lending tree and they sent that to four different lenders who competed. And so I did something similar using travel agents to book vacations.

I've been in digital ~ advertising. Just a lot of different things. And like I said, mild success to epic failures. ~ But I learned a lot and then was able to really apply a lot of those lessons to help me avoid those future mistakes when it got, you know, into roofing.

man. Okay. Well, ~ tell us a little bit about building your roofing business. How did you get started?

What did that look like? you know, I said in 2005, I started at your service, but it was more remodeling and things like that. And then I stepped away for a few years. And what brought me really back was, ~ I had come out of a failure and had pretty much blown through my savings and my, was married.

think my third son was on the way. And I was really at a crossroads and I'm wondering maybe I'm not really cut out for entrepreneurship or business. You know, I feeling pretty deflated and I met with a guy, a business consultant that my dad knew who's still my business consultant today. And he said, Chris, you got to get a sales job.

You can sell, get a sales job. You can meet your quota in 20 to 30 hours that most guys take 40 hours and you can use the rest of the time to kind of plot your next move. And so my brother-in-law had been telling me about this guy who had a roofing company into door-to-door sales and that I would be good at it and it had been encouraging and I didn't want anything to do with that. but with enough desperation, I thought, okay, like if that's what I got to do.

And so my first year, ~ in that doing door-to-door sales, I sold about 1.2 mil somewhere right around there. And this is, again, this is back in, Yeah. in.

you know, pricing per square was like 260 a square, where now it's more like 600 a square. And so that 1.2 is more like 2.4 or two, you know, somewhere between 2.

5, probably in three mil. And so I was desperate enough that I was grinding, I was hustling, but I was good at it. And that ~ off season, I went to the owner and I said, Hey, I can build a sales team. I can, I can, I think I can do more here.

I can blow this thing up a little bit. And I just need a percentage of my team or some type of a small percentage of ownership. We got to work out some type of compensation plan. And he said, well, Chris, if you, you know, I don't want to do those things.

And if you have a better opportunity, I suggest you take it. And I remember very clearly where I was and him saying that. And in my head, I went, I think you're going to really regret saying that. And he and I are actually friends to this day.

And we've had this conversation and joked about it. And he's like, yes, I do actually regret saying that. ~ So my business is, I think a bit larger than his is now. But he's a great guy.

And I'm glad to say that he and I are still friends and we talk quite often. you know, I had ~ increased his business so much in that year that he needed an additional crews And so he actually hired my brother-in-law to run crews And so when he didn't want to kind of grow or pursue that opportunity with me, I went to my brother-in-law and I said, well, I'm selling them and you're installing them. So why don't we just go out on our own? So I reopened at your service, partnered with my brother-in-law and we were off and running.

And we did that for about eight years. I think it was somewhere around there. And then, ~ and my brother-in-law and I were 50 50 partners. We did, we got along very well.

There was very little friction. But after eight years, I really wanted to grow. I saw more opportunity. I wanted to keep pushing.

he wasn't that's not what he wanted to do. He was, you know, I think he you know, he said something along the lines of Chris, we both make really good money. We're really comfortable. Like, I don't understand why we're trying to do more.

And he and I were able to find compromise in virtually every situation for eight years. But when one wants to grow, and the other one wants to stay where they are, it's not that one's right, one's wrong. But how do you How do you compromise with that? ~ I mean, those are direct conflict.

Yeah. And so we went through a year of meeting with a we created a board of advisors who had no authority, but they would help us communicate and problem solve. And after a year of that, it was clear that there really wasn't much in the way of a solution. And so I ended up we decided I ended up buying him out.

And ~ and then at that point, I mean, just within a couple of months, I bought a building, bought a fleet of vehicles, and we started kind of pushing. And the company did well, it didn't explode, but it did well for a number of years. And then I go, of course, last year, we expanded into the Cleveland market. And we now have the opportunity to expand into a lot of different markets.

And that's something that we're, we're hopeful to accomplish. man, that's great. So what was it that gave you the big push to want to grow? I know you mentioned you and your brother-in-law kind of just saw things different ways, but ~ what was your perspective?

Why not just sit back and be comfortable like he was advocating for? Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's two major reasons. You know, I mentioned earlier, I get bored very easily.

And if I'm not solving problems, if I'm not producing something, I get very bored. I get restless. It's not good for me. So that's one answer.

The other is there's a there's a verse in the Bible. It's Luke 12, 47 and 48, I believe. And it says to those who been given much, much more we demanded. to those who have been trusted with little will be entrusted with much.

And I've always, you know, I'm not a believer in like life versus or putting more weight on certain scripture than others, but that always spoke to me because, you know, I was given a good family, raised in the Midwest, which is a good safe part of town. We were middle-class, upper middle-class. You know, I had a good education. I had all of these things and I felt that I had been given much and therefore much more was demanded of me.

And for me to stop there and just say, well, it's a good income, a good life that I'm providing for my children. It just felt like a waste of the God given talents and gifts that I had. And I just, I couldn't, I could not live that way. I would have been very miserable.

~ and that's why you see today, you know, I've grown the business. And, you know, a lot of people in the roofing space these days, you know, private equities here, and there's a lot of companies, know, the exiting is, you know, scale and exit is this big push in the industry. And I get asked that question all the time is that you're playing and I say, absolutely not. I would be bored.

I don't, you know, I don't have necessarily my next plans. I have no interest in doing that. I'm having a lot of fun running the business. I actually don't have to run the business per se anymore.

I'm really at the point where I finally. work my way out of the business. And most of my time is spent on other companies, other businesses. And so yeah, I mean, that's just kind of where we ended up.

But I have no interest, know, even if I were to exit, you know, I could sell all of my companies and have what I'd still I'm to go work somewhere like I can't just I have no interest in golfing, you know, five days a week at this point in my life. So I'm going to be putting that time and effort somewhere. It might as well be here in the industry that I've kind of grown to love. Okay, awesome.

So I know ~ you mentioned you came in somewhat reluctantly, you tried to do almost anything else and wound up roofing kind of out of desperation. ~ What was the turning point where you really decided to go all in and say, okay, I'm committed here, this is what I'm going to make my career about? So I stayed in roofing for a long time, like I said, because the money was just too good to go anywhere else. But it was really about 2021.

Yeah. And, you know, we were doing, we were, we were mostly on the residential restoration space. So most of our volume was, was homeowners that had an insurance claim, primarily wind damage in the Cincinnati, maybe the occasional hail storm. And I had gotten really bored.

It was it was actually, you know, it easy back then before 2020 that that business model was easy. And it was just on autopilot and kind of rinse and repeat. And I just didn't have much joy. I didn't have problems to solve.

But when COVID hit ~ the the insurance companies really pivoted and it's a whole other world now than it used to be. And that's actually when I got the greatest satisfaction and joy. I had a lot of problems to solve. I had ~ just there's constantly tweaking systems and processes, innovating new strategies and techniques, reinventing the business.

I actually kind of burned the business to the ground last year and rebuilt it under a new model. And so all of those things really keep my attention and provide a lot of joy for me. And so when I really decided I'm, you know, it was 2021 when I was like, I love this now. And then really it was when John Sienak called me up randomly.

I think it was 21. It may have been 22. And I remember him calling me and I had his number in my phone because we had had a random call some other time. And so John called and you know, I see it on my phone, John Sienak.

And so he starts, you know, introducing himself and I go, John, John, I know who you are. You know, you're, you're the goat in my mind. John Seenach and Adam Benzman are the two goats of that side of the roofing industry. Those are the two guys that I followed.

And I said, John, I know who you are. The question is, why are you calling me? And it turns out that at that time, Yeah. my company was the largest user of his product, NTS, named that shingle, where you pull a shingle off the roof, you send it to him and they identify the shingle and give you a bunch of information about it.

It's somewhat similar to ITEL, except it's accurate and actually good solid information. You And he said, I want to come in and take you out to dinner and I want to get to understand what you're doing, how you're using my product, because obviously you're doing it very effectively. And I want to learn from you so that I can teach other roofers and they'll buy my product more. And at that time, in my mind, I was an above average contractor in roof in Ohio.

Like I'm just another guy in, you know, and As john and I got to know each other and I started speaking in his events. What really did it is I said john, I just figured out this one thing and that's cool and I'm glad to help but that's really it. And he goes, Chris, I consult for hundreds of companies all across the country. I see the back end of these other companies, I see their systems and processes.

I meet with them. He was I am telling you, you are way beyond. You know, you're in the top 1 % or you're way beyond. And, and that actually hit me that was evidence.

It was like, okay, this guy actually travels the industry. He knows so much that made sense to me. And that's when really the light bulb went off for me. And I kind of believed in myself and my abilities.

And then really from there, John and I have been on just a tear for the last three years. You know, we built master your craft, which is ~ Probably my favorite thing that I've done in the industry so far. But now we have unit five, we have Gladstone. I'm speaking for Owens Corning.

I'm doing private trainings and consulting. really, you know, John and I are really close and good friends at this point. But I said to you, go, you know, you never pick up that phone, you never come in town and go out to dinner. None of these things ever happen.

And it's crazy what has resulted out of him just kind of having that quick thought of like, Hey, let me look at my customer list and see what stands out. He's like, there's this company in Cincinnati that, okay, like, let me just reach out to them. And what that's done for both of us has been pretty incredible. That is a great story.

That's really interesting. you know, John and I talk about this thing called enemies or I'm sorry, allies, not enemies. Cause in the roofing space, you get a lot of, there's a lot of ego. There's a lot of pride, a lot of machismo.

And so most roofing companies, you know, it's like West side story type stuff. You run into another roofing company and it's like, are we about to throw down? ~ and so just last week, it was last Friday. there's a roofing company from Dayton, Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, and my roofing company, a handful of guys from each one.

And then Chuck Tokey, who is a rock star in the industry and really in just retail sales in general and everywhere in home services, as well as, John cater and a number of other guys. And we all got together and had cigars and bourbon and just chatting. And I really try to encourage guys. Like I've started to realize that your, your net worth.

You know, there's, there's a saying, your, your network is your net worth. And I think that that's, that that's become a lot more true to me, but it's really your reputation is your net worth. And what I mean by that is because of the, the, the network and the people that I know and making allies and not enemies. If my roofing company goes under something happens and I lose everything tomorrow, there's a lot of guys out there that are very successful that I have a good relationship with that.

have a good reputation. and are going to be like, Chris, I'll pay you really good money to come here and run my roofing company or let's form a business and do this. And so that's been a lesson that I've learned. And I try to encourage other guys that I consultant and master your craft.

Like, sure, there are companies out there that you don't align with your vision and values are not the same. And I would keep them at arm's length. But there's a lot of roofing companies out there. Like if you're listening to this, and you're a roofing company owner, there's roofing companies in your market.

that share your vision and values and do things the way you do them for the most part. And you need to know those guys, like go out to lunch, get coffee, have conversations, because they're going to spark light bulbs, you know, for you that are really going to help and you're going to do the same for them. And it's really been a big lesson that I've learned. And I really try to preach as much as I can over these last few years.

man, that's some great advice. And yeah, I can appreciate that. When I was in business, most of my competitors, we still got along well. We'd go out to lunch, we'd spend time together.

~ It's way more fun to do business that way than when you're ~ at each other's throats and threatened by each other as well. I know you mentioned you've kind of worked yourself out of the business Absolutely. and you don't have to be involved as much as, ~ really at all. ~ What did that process look like?

What were the key components and how long did that take? It took longer than I wanted it to. can tell you that. And it's not my first attempt.

Hahaha So there's a, there's a guy named Dan Walrack who is a, you know, industry leader in the roofing industry when it comes to door to door sales. And he and I had this discussion at the IRE, the international roofing expo about, you know, he and I are old guys now. We've been in the industry for 15, 20 years. That's pretty abnormal.

You don't have to be old to be an old guy in roofing. That's right. I mean, if you've been doing it for like three, four years, you're already at like the top of that. Yeah, that chart.

but there's not a lot of guys that have been in it 15, Yeah, I, put in about 22 years 20. and, when the young guys started looking to me, even my competitors talking about how long I've been there and like, wow. Yeah. guess I've been here longer than everybody else, but I'm not old yet.

Well, I mean, at 45, I'm starting to feel a bit old, but yeah, you're exactly right. Yeah. It didn't take long. mean, at one point I'm in my like late thirties and I'm technically an old guy.

I'm seasoned. I'm a vet. Um, and so we're talking about, you know, is it easier back then or easier now? Um, and again, I kind of forgot where I'm going with this.

Um, Oh yeah. Work yourself out. Sorry, the question was how did you work yourself out of the business? Sorry, I interrupted you there pretty bad.

Sure. No, no, you're good. You're good. I apologize.

~ and so I, I had tried a couple of times and failed. And when, when, see, Dan and I didn't have master your craft when we were coming up, we didn't have Adam Benzeman and John C. Nack really out there. That was kind of later in our career.

~ at our time, there wasn't all the social media networking and podcasts and you just had to figure stuff out. And so when it comes to working myself out of the business, I just had to figure it out. And now there's a lot of resources out there. mean, me for one now, but there's a lot of guys out there that can consult you and help you accomplish that.

And so if I had to do it all over again, I could do it much, much faster. you But it took me five years roughly, I would say to really get to that point. Now that wasn't my main focus, but it wasn't really until last year. I don't want to say I built the team in a lot of ways.

The team was built even without me, but it's really about having good people. And so I've got a guy named Nolan Snyder who's an absolute monster. I mean, he's 23 years old and he's already kind of a legend in the industry. But he's my general manager.

I've got guys like Frederick Heberling and Jeff Erhard, who are my point people in the two different branches. And Greg Snyder, who it's funny is in Cleveland. That's Nolan's dad, but he's actually, I'm looking at him through my door in my office. He's in town.

And so because of what I was doing, putting stuff on social media, doing the speaking events and different things, it was able to attract talent. And they kind of came to me. I was able to recognize that talent and that team is what's, what's really helped me. And so that's kind of an unfair advantage.

A lot of guys can't do that, but there are certainly other ways that you can do that. ~ you need to be able to one be open. You gotta be willing to delegate so many roofing owners. There's a book called the E myth.

And if you haven't read that book and you're in the trades, you should read the E myth revisited. And it talks about the three levels. There's the, the, technician, the manager and the entrepreneur. And that's really what it's about.

Like if you want to progress from a technician to a manager, you have to let go of the technician responsibilities. You can't do both. And if you want to transition from the manager to the, to the operator, the business owner, the, the entrepreneur, you got to let go of those other things. And that's probably the hardest thing is the, the, the owner's mindset of no one else can do these things.

No one else can do them as well as me. If I let other people do it, it's going to harm my business. And you've got to really put trust in good people. And I mean, you still have to measure and monitor and hold them accountable, but you got to be willing to trust those people to delegate some of those tasks, let them operate, let them make some mistakes as well.

And I think you're going to find that people are more capable than maybe you thought. And your ego is going to be hurt because you're going to realize that you weren't quite as critical as you thought you were. ~ but if you can do those things, Yeah. ~ you can get out of the business.

And now, you know, the old saying, right, I work on the business, not in the business. But what I do honestly, at this point is mostly working on other businesses. Now those other businesses are also aligned to the roofing space. They are my team has a we have a vision.

And they understand that I'm accomplishing that vision in these other things that I'm doing. And so it's not that I'm choosing these things over them, or I'm no longer interested. It's that we have we know exactly where we want to go. And we know the fastest way for that to happen is for them to run at your service roofing.

And for me to be doing the classes and the speaking and the consulting and those types of things. And so there's really good alignment there. And that's another really key piece. Like you cannot get out of the business if you don't have a vision for what the business needs to look like.

And if you don't communicate that vision and reinforce that vision, ~ I don't want to say constantly, but repeatedly. I know one of the ways that we do that and at your service is we have a state of the union address ~ quarterly. So once a quarter, I either do it from the Cincinnati branch or I go up to the Cleveland branch and the other branch zooms in. And it's not about our numbers and revenue and goals.

It's about our core values, our vision for the company, our mission. Are we accomplishing them? You know, celebrating things. and making sure that we're all on the same page and, know, reinforcing that vision.

Because a pastor that I used to meet with for close to 10 years, we had breakfast every Monday morning, one of the biggest influences in my life. But he had a saying that vision leaks. And as an owner, it's very ~ tempting to be like, Yep. well, I we had that conversation, I told you guys this, you know, and like, it's two years later, nothing else has been said about that.

And so that will leak from your people's minds. You have to be constantly reinforcing the really important things, which I believe is the vision, the mission, the core values. man, that's some good advice. yeah, yeah, that's hard to do.

I've heard it say that your job as the CEO is to be the CRO, the Chief Repeating Officer. You got to repeat it, repeat it, repeat it. ~ That's not that's yeah, that's that's pretty good. I would tell you that at my right now, my job here is to keep an eye on culture and communicate.

Really, if I were to boil it down, I need to be communicating with my general manager, Nolan, and be a resource for him and be kind of grooming him and teaching him because he's a young man. And then I need to have my eye on culture and just recognize patterns and catch things before they're a problem. Bring them. to the attention of Nolan and the leadership team.

But outside of that, that's really my primary functions now, as far as at your service goes, which gives me the bandwidth to do all the other things that we kind of talked about earlier. Yeah, that's really cool. What was the most difficult step from when you started out to where you are today? One, like kind of repeating a little bit of what I said was getting out of my own way.

I was sitting, ~ my business consultant has a, a networking group, kind of like a mastermind group. And so these are all either owners or CEOs. And there's maybe 10, 15 guys in there at any one point in time. We meet once a month and the guys were talking about something and the light bulb went off.

And I realized that the number one, the biggest constriction, the biggest choke point bottleneck in my company was my mindset. And I would say things or I would think things like, well, I don't, you know, there's a limit to what we can do here. We couldn't possibly do this. That wouldn't, I just don't see that.

And that mindset, that limiting belief was killing opportunity, was killing a lot of things. And when that mindset switched to a mindset of we can do anything, It's just a matter of how much money and how much time we want to spend. The world opened up and it really was kind of that. I mean, don't get me wrong.

It wasn't easy to switch the mindset, but once that switch was flipped, that was really it. mean, now opportunities opened up. The team bought in more. We started growing.

There was upward mobility for the team. So that was certainly a big, big part of it. my willingness to delegate and trust in my people. When I first took that step and I, you know, for many years, I sold probably half to two thirds of the volume of my company.

And I thought, well, I'll never be able to get out of that. How could I replace that? I'd have to, you know, and when I finally just bit the bullet and said, you know what, I'm going to do it. I'm just, I'm out from selling.

I'm going to get out of the field and I'm going be in the office. Which was not fun for me. I like being outside. I like talking with people and interacting with my customers.

And so it wasn't really what I wanted. It was what I felt was going to be best for the business. We had plateaued. We're never going to grow past here if we don't.

And I just bit the bullet and I was the whole time I'm waiting for like the bad reviews, the botched jobs, the unhappy customers. And it just never came. And what I realized is, you know, perfection, what's this saying? Perfection is the enemy.

~ of good or I'm not saying that right. But you know, I was always searching for perfection. And what I had to realize was good enough is good enough. There's not, you know, name a company that's of any size or influence that that's perfect, or like, you know, just really flawless and excellent, like they don't really exist.

And so if you want to have that mindset Yeah. of perfectionist, and everything's got to be done perfect. that that's admirable, but you're never going to be able to grow your your your really limiting yourself. And so when I bit that bullet, I realized like, hey, my sales guys are out there.

They're closing. Mike, I'm not getting bad reviews. I'm not putting out fires. Man, I guess is it as good as what I would have done?

Probably not. But it's good enough. And getting getting okay with that ~ took some time mindset wise. Yeah.

But once I did, that was that was kind of it. Yeah, like, gosh, I know I've heard Craig Groeschel say it. I don't know if he's the one that came up with it. But if somebody can do it 80 % as well as you can, you need to let them have it.

So. 100%. I agree with that very much. I will take I was on a phone yesterday.

There's a guy who's in Mastercraft and he calls me and he his production hits to two of his production guys are ~ came to him and said I got another job offer. I might be leaving and ~ he mentioned that he goes well. I was actually going to have like a performance review with him anyway, because I don't feel like they were doing as good a job. You know they would I'd give him like a B plus and I was like hold up.

I was like, I'll take P pluses. Yeah. Like if they're doing a B plus, that's, that's good. I would try to retain those guys if I were you, like you're never going to find employees, especially salary employees that care about your business the way that you do that have the same drive, the same ambition.

And, you know, if you can get, you know, these are people that are saying, Hey, I just want a job, maybe a career. But I want to put in my time, make my money and then go back to my family. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But don't ever expect those guys to then innovate and, you know, ~ create new systems and processes.

And, you know, that's just not the way that they're wired. And so, yeah, as far as like employees, B plus is a sweet spot. I'm like, I'll take anywhere in the B range. That's great.

Yeah. Yeah. If they were, if they had the same attitude, the same mindset that you do, they probably wouldn't be working for you. They'd be out.

Yeah. No, they're going to leave and start their own company, which is fine. Again, a lot of people in the industry complain about that. And I go, I don't want to ever stand in someone's way of making more money, of improving themselves.

Now, granted, there's a lot of guys that leave and go start a company that are not really kind of qualified to, I don't think it might be going to be successful there. You know, I've had conversations with guys and I said, listen, if you want to go and start your own thing, that's great. You can do that. I see some holes.

I think if you put in another year, maybe two here and I'll specifically try to teach you and fill in those gaps and help you there. And I think you're going to be better off. But if you want to leave, you know, you can, that's your call. ~ But yeah, exactly.

If someone's an A player, they're probably not going to stick around very long. And that's why I think B is like the sweet spot. Like a B minus guy is like really the sweet spot. I can probably level him up to a B, B plus.

~ He's probably not going to leave, you know, he's going to be content and happy. So stuff. So I know you mentioned you love being out in the field. No problem with B players.

You love interact interacting with customers. ~ What is your favorite part of your job? And then what is your least favorite? Well, now I would say that my favorite part of my job is teaching.

You know, when I'm doing these classes and consulting, you know, if I'm doing an Owens Corning class or Mastercraft class, I'm in a room full of 75 to 150 roofers and I'm teaching. And that's a lot different than speaking, which I didn't quite understand those two until I was asked to do a keynote at RoofCon, which is a big national roofing conference. And that wasn't teaching. That was a speaking.

Yeah. And I realized that I don't, I mean, I'm appreciative of the opportunity and I enjoy doing it, but speaking is not, it doesn't like fulfill me or bring me energy, but teaching does. So that is certainly one. And then the other is, ~ innovation.

Like I'm constantly looking to become more efficient to solve problems, ~ create new things. And so that's probably right now, you know, and you see that with, with John. We've got master your craft. We've had it for three years, but we're actually in the process.

maybe by the time this comes out, we'll have already made the transition. We're going to completely reshape how master your craft works. Like I love the brainstorming and Hey, where are we failing? Where could we improve?

Where, where could we be better? What if we did it this way? And so now, you know, and we've, we've got the AI program that I've been working on the impact testing laboratory. And so those are, those are probably my favorite things.

~ you know, teaching, cause I see direct results. I see guys who are hungry for the information that are, that are going to implement the content and I get the feedback from them. They send me, I get a text every day from somebody in the industry that's like, Hey, you know, you spent this time with me or I learned this or whatever. I did this.

Here's the result. Like that's incredibly rewarding. ~ I feel like we're raising the standard in the industry. feel like I'm having a positive impact on those people, their lives, their customers.

And then now I get the chance to really like innovate and do things in a really kind of creative different way. My least favorite thing. I struggle with this because I would say managing people. There's a big difference between leadership and management.

And I'm fine to lead. I can embrace that. Yeah. I like that.

I'm used to that. But managing is really just sucks the life and the energy out of me. ~ So luckily, that's something that I've been able to delegate and hire people and trust in people to do. And I don't have to do that too much, but I still do have to get back in some of those and, you know, dealing with people's emotions is difficult for me.

and I'm, I'm sympathetic, I'm empathetic to them, but when they're harming the mission, that's difficult for me. And so, ~ whenever I have to get back into management, And again, it's that, that E-Myth, right? You got the technician, the manager and the entrepreneur. Like I'm meant to live in that third realm.

That's just the way that I, my God given gifts and talents. And when I had to step back into the manager role, I hate it. I mean, I, I am trying to get out of there. I'd rather be the technician than the manager.

You know what mean? I'd rather just go back in the field and sell and, Yeah. and inspect roofs and do all that stuff. So that's probably my least favorite thing.

Okay. ~ What has been the scariest thing that you faced in building your business? When were you most afraid? there.

I mean, there's a few that come to mind. You know, one is once we grew the business, I mean, I think that we're worth around 30 W twoed employees. And so there's there's fear there like one misstep of mine, one miscalculation, one bad decision will have real impact on on other people's, you know, families and ability to provide for their for their families. So that's scary.

~ You know, you I can get out of that space pretty quickly by going, listen. I trust myself more than I trust most other people. And so I think they're in better hands being an employee at your service than I'm being an employee at most other places. So it is what it is.

You just got to accept that responsibility and keep plowing ahead. ~ You know, I had some fears early in the career that, you know, there's always been this fear on the restoration side of the business that like, ~ these insurance companies are going to do these things. They're not going to keep paying for roofs, they're not going to whatever the sky is falling. And there were many times in my career where I was like, okay, I just got to grab opportunities as best I can because it's going to go away.

And, and that was always a bit scary. ~ I tend to early in my career, August is tough. There's, there's a cycle where when you get to the end of like summer break for, students, I think there's a lot of people homeowners that don't want to deal with anything because they're just trying to get their kids back to school, get back into their normal rhythm and they don't want to make any decisions. They don't want to take on anything right now.

And the pipeline gets low every August. It starts getting pretty thin and then without fail it runs back up in the fall. Can you get people that you know? ~ I know I got to get it done before winter.

I waited, you know what I mean? And there goes the pipeline again. And early in my career, man, I would wake up in a cold sweat, many times going, you know, what's going to happen? What if we run out of jobs?

What if this happens? What if that happens? And really through, ~ being in the mastermind group and under my business consultant and the, what he had done to shift my mindset. as well as my relationship with John and what I had learned and where we were going, those fears eventually kind of went away.

But man, there were times where I would wake up, Hmm. you know, having a nightmare about we ran out of work, the business went under, this happened and just freaking out. And so there's, there's a tremendous amount of stress in this. ~ You might see guys on Facebook and they look like they got it all together.

I mean, I got a lot of guys that reach out to me and they go, Hey man, I mean, You know, by the looks of it, it looks like you're just killing it. you know, congratulations and, know, most of those guys are smart enough to be like, it looks this way. I hope it's that way, Yeah. you know?

And it's like, yeah, you know, it depends on what day you ask me. there's days where I feel like I'm on top of the world. There's days where I'm like, I need to go to bed and, and, you know, not wake up for a couple of days. So, ~ Elon Musk said, posted something I saw and it said, ~ I op my normal level of stress would cripple most people.

And that's a that's a, ~ you know, paraphrasing there, obviously. But I do think about that. I've got a lot of friends and even people in the industry. And, you know, they talk about their day and things and I do.

I'm like, man, if you lived one day in my shoes, you might have a breakdown. Like, you know, the amount of different payrolls and different, Yeah. ~ fires that are coming up and that need to be put out and problems that need to be solved. And so you just learn to embrace it.

You, just becomes your new normal at some point and you, just deal with it. ~ so yeah, I don't have much more advice than, know, I, I coach football. And I told my son, he's, 10 years old and I'm giving him the speech from like the movie, the program, which I don't know back in the nineties, but the coach is like, are you hurt or are you injured? Like if you're injured, that means you can't play.

Yeah. If you're hurt, I don't care. Like suck it up and get back out there. Yeah.

And that's kind of the same thing when it comes to owning a business or multiple businesses and dealing with that stress. Like, are you hurt or are you injured? Like if you're injured, if you're depleted, if you're really struggling, Yeah, you need to get with a business consultant. You need to get with a coach or a mentor.

Like you need to be poured into. You need some things, but like if you're just hurt, like I, yeah, that's, that's you, you play this game and that's how it's going to be. So you might as well just suck it up and just keep pushing forward. man.

~ I had that chat with one of my young nephews recently. He was, he's five and he was whining that he needed a band-aid. I said, man, if a band-aid fixes your problem, you don't have a problem. ~ Yeah.

That's right. That's right. Like, what do you think this is going to do? That's, you know?

Yeah. If you're bleeding bad enough that you need to worry about it, a band-aid ain't going to fix it. So, ~ love that. That's right.

Was there something that significantly delayed the growth of your business? And if so, how would you handle it differently? Yeah, I mean, kind of touching on this, you know, which we talked about was my mindset. Like that's when I look back at like the real harm, you the real choke point, it was really just my own mindset.

I didn't believe that this industry or my market or whatever it was that I couldn't really build. There was a time where I kind of resigned myself to being like, I'm just going to run a small roofing company. And I think that I can always make pretty good money. and support my family.

But you know, some of these dreams that I had of exiting businesses and having real like financial freedom, you know, maybe I need to put those things out of my mind and just come to terms with the fact that I'm just going to, you know, and there's nothing obviously wrong with that. Like that, you know, that that's great if you're able to provide a comfortable lifestyle for your family. And so. Yeah, that was that was by far the thing that I regret.

or I wish I could have solved that problem sooner. There's a lot of guys that come to me and they're like, Chris, you know, and they're in their late 20s and they're really sharp guys. They're owners in the roofing space. And they're like, you know, I just I want to get to where you are.

And I go, oh, well, hold up. I'm like, do you know where I was when I was 27? Like I was coming out of a failure. had even had my next failure yet.

Like, here's how much money I was making. Like you're already. way beyond where I was at that age. ~ you know, John Scenic posted, ~ just the other day, ~ a picture, I think it was he and I on stage, if I remember right, but it was like, what's the one thing that you've learned or what's your one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self or something along those lines.

And my comment was be patient. You have time. And I've stolen that from Gary V. ~ that's a message that I've heard him, you know, kind of preach.

And it's so true, so much work, so guys are in such a rush. You know, our culture, instant gratification is a big thing now. You see guys on on Facebook flexing with their Lambo and their Rolex or this big apartment complex job or whatever it is, and you feel like you're behind. You want to get there fast.

And I go if you're able to get most likely if you you if you want to go fast, you're probably going to fail. Even if you get there. I don't think it's going to be the reward that you want and it's going to be a house of cards. It won't have a firm foundation and you're still going to be struggling to maintain it.

If you just slow down and you're patient and you build a strong solid foundation, then you're going to get where you want to be. You're probably going to get there pretty quickly anyway. It might take you a little bit longer, but it'll be a lot more rewarding. It'll be a lot more stable.

And, and so I've watched so many companies here, my local market. I've never heard of them. came out of nowhere. They blew up.

They were everywhere. And then two, three years later, poof, they're gone. And, you know, it's, it's the whole like slow and steady wins the race. And that's very easy for a guy 20 years in the industry, you know, middle aged to say, if I would have said that to myself, you you know, in my twenties that have been like, yeah, cool advice.

I don't care. I want to run fast. so I get that there it's, it's hard to actually, you know, implement and do that. But the one thing I just remind guys like, Slow down, be patient, you've got time.

Like don't be lazy, don't, you know, not do things, but you don't have to like rush through them. ~ You're gonna learn so many lessons along the way that once you get to your 30s or 40s or whatever it is, you're gonna be so much better off. Yeah, I can relate to that a lot while you were speaking, it brought to mind the gunfighters mantra. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

And I think I can relate to a lot of what you were saying that there were a long period of time where I was the biggest bottleneck in my business. I maybe wasn't afraid of growing, but didn't want to grow. of like I had all these opinions about, these big companies. They don't, they don't have the control.

They don't have the quality. They don't take care of their customers. They don't take care of their employees. And I intentionally kind of bottlenecked it.

~ but we built that solid foundation. so like you're talking about when I finally kind of broadened my mind a little bit and well, okay. Some, yeah, those companies maybe don't maintain quality. You don't take care of their guys.

Don't, ~ care for their customers, but it doesn't mean we don't have to and started to grow. man, the growth came fast and I got a lot further than I expected to be because we had that solid foundation. Is that similar to your experience? yeah, it's very well said.

the, the, the keynote address that I did at roof con that that was a big part of it is that early in my career, I was chasing money and what I, at some point in my career, I realized that money isn't the goal. It's the by-product. And it was really when I read the book, start with why by Simon Sinek and you know, what is my why? Why do I wake up and have energy and want to go do this?

And why do I why do you love roofing? I mean, if you love roofing, why is a really good question to ask? Like, what are you crazy? And so what I realized was I really loved helping people that were being preyed upon.

And and there's many different factors that are preying on your average homeowner in the roofing space. And I just didn't like that. That was that was just didn't sit well. And so everything I was doing was about protecting homeowners from that.

And as soon as I stopped thinking about the money and I started thinking about serving, know, customer service and serving and living out the mission of my why and money became the byproduct. That's the day the money really came. I mean, whenever I was focused on money, I had some money, but it was OK. When I stopped thinking about money and that was my driving force, the floodgates opened and there there came the money.

So. No, what you said is spot on in my opinion. Yeah, that's good stuff. And, ~ I know I always felt the same way.

There is a few competitors that I had that I had a lot of respect for. And if I lost a job to one of them, I usually didn't worry about it. I knew the customer is going to be taken care of. I knew they were going to do good work.

It's, know, there's enough work to go around good friendly competition. Absolutely. And then every once in a while I'd lose a job and I wasn't upset that I lost the job. was upset that my customer is going to be taken advantage of.

Cause % right. I knew who was doing the work and I knew how they were going to treat them and I knew that I would be back there fixing it in a few years and ~ even with the promise of more work on the horizon there, those were the ones that really hurt because I'm with you. Yeah, like that's great. I mean, You don't want to see people taking advantage of.

I appreciate that. I'll be fixing their mistakes. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, that's just it's not right.

~ There's a company here locally that just went on a business No. and they've been around for a while and not, you know, if I told you that there's three, you know, I'm there's a lot of roofers in Cincinnati. It's a good sized town, but there's hundreds hundreds of roofing companies Yeah. and this would be in my top three like worst as far as I mean, they at one point I remember checking and they had.

~ over 45 complaints with the Better Business Bureau. And, and I'm like, you know, I've been in business for 20 years, I've never had a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Having one complaint would be like, disgusting to me, like what, did it get to that that bad that they sort of have 40, Yeah. you know, tells you a lot about ~ the way that they were operating, but they just went on a business and I don't want to, you know, have joy in other people's failures or anything like that.

But the joy wasn't like my joy. It wasn't like, oh, now I'm going to have more market share. Now I'm going to sell more, make more money. And the thing is like, thank God these people are not out there still harming, you know, people that, that live here.

Because we were, we were replacing roofs. So we're six months old, two years old. It was, it was just really, really bad. And finally, and again, that's what I say, like be patient because there's guys on the groups all the time that are like, I can't believe these guys get away with this.

I can't believe these guys, whatever. And it gets to the point where these younger guys start thinking like, well, if they're going to operate that way and they get to succeed and there's no penalty for it, maybe, maybe I'll just do it that way. And again, it's like, they don't have that firm foundation. Yeah.

It's a, it's a house of cards and eventually it's going to crumble. And you know, this one took longer than I expected it to, but it finally happened. And so, you know, meanwhile, we're just kind of chugging along and doing our thing. Yeah.

man. Well, I know we've talked about a few shifts that you've made in your mindset and your business, but is there a significant opinion that you once held and because of your experience, you've changed your mind about? Wow, that's a good question. Say that, repeat that question again one more time.

Is there a significant opinion that you once held and due to your experience you've changed your position on? Yeah, I mean, I once come into mind. I mean, I remember thinking like, I don't care what the broader industry is doing. I don't even care what's going on in my market.

I'm just going to be laser focused on me and my business. And that's not a bad mindset. Honestly, I don't have that much of a problem with it. But now that I do all this consulting and, I'm in, you know, traveling the country, having a broader perspective on the industry allows me to see a lot better.

It allows me to forecast. what's coming, ~ you know, that might affect the industry, my market, my company. And so That would be one that I would think, you know, it's good to have, you know, to me, you got in the weeds, you've got like the 10,000 foot view and then the 30,000 foot view. And most guys don't ever get out of the weeds and that's the real problem.

Once you learn these different perspectives, it's really good, but you don't really want to stay in any one perspective always. If I'm always at 30,000 foot, then I'm going to lose a lot of what's happening in the day to day and I'm going to lose touch with You know, my company and I don't get any boots on the ground perspective. And so it's a discipline and it really is a discipline to purposefully shift your mindset between those three layers. You know, also kind of going back to the technician, the manager, the entrepreneur, it's basically the same concept is that like, yes, I know where I'm best used is that the entrepreneur level, the 30,000 foot view, but in order to be really good there, I have to get this, these other views from time to time.

And so. Yeah. purposely shifting the mindset between those views, ~ it would probably be one of those. But yeah, I don't have any, no other ones are really coming to mind.

Okay. That's a good question. I'll to think about that. Okay.

Is there a significant mistake that you can think of that if you could do it again you would do something different? Well, I would I would never enter a 50-50 partnership again, and I want to be very clear that that's ~ Meant towards my former partner. He is ~ a great person. So my former partner I mentioned is my brother-in-law and he's a very good person He is a great husband to my sister a great dad to my niece and nephew ~ But 50 50 partnerships are really never a good idea.

And I remember promising my wife, I'll never do this again. And then three years later, however many years later, I'm like, so John scenic wants to, you know, master your craft and where we are 50 50. And so, you know, some lessons might be hard to learn. Hopefully I don't ever have to regret that decision.

I don't think I will, but we'll see. ~ But that's decision that ~ it took a lot of pain and suffering to get out of that. It took on both my end and his end. It also created pain and suffering on our team and it really hampered growth.

So I tend to advise guys like a company needs a leader. There's got to be somebody that's the visionary, someone that's steering the boat. ~ even if it's 5149. But but really, I try to not have partnerships.

I don't mind paying people as a partner, like you can get paid x percent of revenue or x percent of profit. But when it comes to the actual operating agreement, the control, you it's very hard to be nimble and pivot and adapt quickly if that's the case. And ~ that's that's That was a process that I don't want to ever have to go through again. And you know, one of those things where I don't really wish on my worst enemy type thing.

So ~ yeah, that's one that I that I look back on. That was a big mistake. Okay. That's interesting.

I interview a lot of people that, at least thus far have had successful partnerships. I've had a few that said they wish they would have brought in partners earlier, but I've always kind of been in your camp. ~ I'm going to own it and I will pay you as a partner. If you're providing adequate benefit, you know, we'll, we'll pay off the bottom line.

~ I don't mind sharing the winnings, but I'm going to own it. And, so I, Amen. I appreciate that perspective. ~ and from somebody that's gone through the pain of splitting something up, that's, ~ some valuable advice there.

Yeah, everybody overvalues themselves, right? Like even me. Nobody ever I feel like leaves a partnership feeling like they got all that they deserved or, know, and ultimately it comes down to like decision making authority and ability. And it's going to end up ruining relationships as well.

There's just there's so much that comes out of it. But like you said, if you know, I don't mind sharing splitting the pie. No problem there whatsoever. Yeah.

But I do mind. ~ You're also basically saying that someone else is going to be directly responsible in my destiny in my outcomes. If I don't know if you don't trust yourself and maybe you think well that person smarter and better and whatever. OK, maybe.

But then again, you're not equally yoked and that's going to cause a riff later on where someone's like, well, I'm the one you know really doing everything and you're just riding my coattails. So I don't want anybody. Having real authority or impact over me and my family and my life. I you know.

So. Yeah, it's that's a dangerous game in my opinion. Yeah. So you mentioned you'd still be open to partnerships, but ~ you'd want them to be structured, you know, majority minority, not a 50 50.

Is there any scenario? ~ sorry. Yeah, the AI company. We have there's Go ahead.

five. Yeah, there's five owners in ~ that business. I have the largest share, but I have in the operating agreement. I have full authority decision making.

So as far as the direct again, like if the other people want to invest, if other people are doing roles and they get vesting great 100%, but I want control. I think that I've got a. a reputation and a history that says that I'm worthy of having that control. And that's a big thing.

Now there's other things and like the unit five with John, I would say that I don't have that and I'm okay with that. Let me provide my value where I can. And hopefully I'm providing enough value to offset my ownership and my my you know, interest in it. ~ But again, there's got to be somebody that's got the real control.

And again, though, yeah, I also always know that I have at your service is my primary driver, and that's 100 % mine. And so on these other things that I'm doing, I'm happy to have partners. That's okay. Every one of them is crafted a little differently, but I would never do that on my primary source of income, my primary driver.

That's if I fail, it's going to be because I failed. It's not because somebody else failed me. Yeah. that's some good insight.

You kind of got ahead of my next question there. was going to say, as a business owner, would you ever enter an agreement where you were that minority stake and someone else had the say in what was going on? Sure. I've invested in, you know, I have very small ownership in a couple other companies just as an investor.

And I have no I don't I mean, even if I had like shareholder voting, it my percentage is so low, it's irrelevant. But yeah, there's companies I go, I believe in that leader that the CEO, like that's a safe bet to me. Or I believe in the company, their product, their mission, whatever it is. And so yeah, and there's also like, can't, I know how much I can do.

I know that I can't properly lead and run and be the decision maker for seven different companies. Not, I can't do that. Some people might. Yeah.

So again, I have my wheelhouse. And so I have at your service, ~ you know, and then Gladstone, I'm the decision maker and, and master your craft at 50 50. But in some of these other ones, I do have the minority share. And honestly, I love having the minority share.

I love not having the stress and the pressure and being along for the ride. And, you know, it's a lot easier. So but again, I would never be in that situation as my primary. Yeah, I have consulted so many guys through an exit, That's a good clarification.

you know, they're like, I feel like I'm getting screwed. And I'm like, well, you are kind of but you're you're the one that's responsible for it. Like, look at the deal that you made. You know, there was a guy that I told him he's about to enter into this deal because this guy, you know, I know a guy he's gonna be the money and he's got a successful other business and he's gonna be the investor.

And so I'm the minority, but I do everything. And I'm like, well, that's great for year one and year two. But what are you going to do in year three when maybe you don't need what's he what value does he bring long term? Like nothing.

You're going to grow very resentful. he's not going to give you more ownership later because he just thinks you've earned it like that doesn't really happen. So and sure enough that that was a big failure and yeah, I've just seen so many times another one where there's three owners and I'm like. That blows my mind.

What are you? Why would you need three owners? What are what? Yeah, if it's your primary, you know, hear me on this, guys that are listening.

If it is your primary source of income, it is your primary driver, your primary focus. You need to be in control of that. Yeah, good advice. Good advice.

So what mistake has cost you the most money? Okay, broadly speaking, in my early in my career, You I did not understand something. And that is that I currently believe that timing and I don't I don't in lot of ways, I don't believe in luck, but like timing and luck are probably more important and more relative to real success than strategy and execution and everything else. There have been times where I had a great plan.

I had thought through things I would I missed like one thing or my timing was just off. There's a certain company that I had and we don't have to go into it. But my buddies will be like, holy crap, they'll like take a picture and they're like, weren't you doing that like 15 years ago? Or weren't you doing that?

And I'm like, yeah, and they're like, man, like you were just ahead of the head of the game or ahead of the time, the timing just wasn't right. And so I've lost a lot of money by putting all my eggs into a basket because I thought I hadn't thought out I thought I had it, ~ you know, I had thought through all the scenarios and everything else. then things that I mean, don't get me wrong. I've also harmed myself through my own decision-making plenty.

Uh, but there are times where there's things that I could never have foreseen that I could never have predicted that. And yeah, those things, those things hurt pretty good. And so now I have a much longer term focus. I'm always looking at least three to five years down the road and looking at what if these random things, and I mean, think about COVID.

you know, the black swan event that COVID was, you know, I've got I know a guy that started an insurance company. There's an insurance company that began in 2022. They were founded in 2020. And if you know the insurance side of the industry, you know, rates, rates stay the same, like you have to go to the state like it regulates pricing.

So you can't just like raise your rates, even if you could. you're selling in a 12 month policy. So you got to wait for the renewal. And because of COVID, you know, materials and labor and the cost of construction almost doubled in like a year.

So insurance companies were really, really harmed. So here's a company that like had all everything ducks in a row and everything lined out and like, here we go. And boom, COVID hit and you know, you can't foresee that. So having backup plans, having redundancies, having you know, worst case scenarios, if this fails, then what is something that you got to be kind of thinking about as well?

I appreciate the burn the boats mentality of like, no, I'm all in on this, it's going to be this or nothing. And and you know, I don't want to be sidetracked. I don't want to whatever and that like that's good. I encourage you to be like laser focused.

But just know that like there's there's factors outside of your control that can sink you pretty quick. Yeah. Well, and just in my own experience, I think there's a different, like you said, when you were worried about money, you made enough when you started focusing on something other than money, that's when the money came in. And when you're operating from a place of relative security or stability, you know, you're okay, even if this fails.

~ I have found, at least for me, it allows me to go all in on a different level. Um, cause you're not looking over your shoulder. Yeah. You're not looking out for what's behind you.

You can just focus on what's ahead. You can get that laser focus and you really can go all in with your, your focus, your energy, your effort, because you know, you've got something to fall back on. Whereas yeah. Yeah, you're not living and dying on the outcome of that one thing.

Sure. And so I, I mean, I get, I think there's value for going all in and man, if this doesn't work, I got nothing else. I got to find a way to make it work, but at least in my own life. I've found that there's more successful when I have a safety net.

Well, and one thing that I tell guys is try to never make decisions under negative emotions, fear, anxiety, Mm. worry, anger, you know, any of those things when you make decisions under that emotional state of mind, you're going to make a bad decision. And so, yeah, again, if you're like, if you're all in on that one thing and doing wrong, like early in your career, you probably need to be like you got to build it and whatever. but you're going to make decisions under emotional stress.

my God, if this is wrong, what happens? and you're weighing these options and you get, you know, paralysis by analysis where when you're not under that and you're not on operating and making decisions under negative emotions, you see so much more clearly and you're a lot better at taking risks, calculated risks. And you're operating again at that 30,000 foot view where you just have clarity. And you know, the game is fun.

You're moving pieces around on the chessboard and you're not standing on the chessboard dueling. And you know, it's gonna take you a little while to get there, but once you do, it's a good spot to be. Yeah, and I think there's a lot of decisions that. If you're looking at the big picture, there's a clear right decision, right?

So, you know, five years from now, this is going to be the best decision. But when you're in a situation where I got bills to pay this month, you don't get a look at the. Exactly. I know this is the right decision, but I can't do that.

So I'll have to do this. And then you're cooked. Yeah. You can't make the best five year decision.

You have to make the best this month decision. And, you know, there's things I look back on. Yeah. Dangerous.

my time running a business and I'm like, man, if I knew where I was going to end up or if I was making that decision again today, I would make it vastly differently. But at the time in this situation, that was the only choice I had. And you know, again, though, like you, don't know if you can really understand that unless you go through some, some failures, ~ early on and learn some lessons. Like you can listen to guys, you know, like this podcast, you can read books, but experience is the best teacher.

And so again, that's where I'm like, take your time. Like I've failed so many times, like a bunch of times. And ultimately like that's a big part of the reason for whatever success I have had. That's a big part of the reason why.

And so if you're just rushing, trying to get there, yeah, you haven't learned those lessons and you're going to have a much, my failures were small failures. If I don't learn those lessons and I get to where I am now, and I have failures, they're going to be big failures. So, you know, take the, You take the lumps, get your teeth kicked in a little bit. It is what it is.

Pick yourself back up, move on, learn your lesson and you're going be much better shape. man, good stuff. What has been your biggest win as a leader? What are you most proud of?

Well, I mean, I have four sons and what I'm most proud of is the men that they've become and or becoming. My oldest is a senior in high school. He's graduating here in a week or two. Then I've got a ~ current, you know, senior, sophomore, eighth grader, fourth grader and watching them become ~ leaders, watching them, you know, become young men and grown men.

And seeing the way they make decisions and hearing some of the things, you know, I, I, struggle a lot of times. I think, am I spending enough time with my kids? Am I, am I pouring into them? I dedicating enough?

You know, I'm doing all these other things, you know, but then I hear them say things and I'm like, my God, they are listening. They do. You know what I mean? ~ and so that's certainly something that, ~ you know, I'm going to go to as far as, ~ proud of as far as, know, in the business world.

You know, the team that I have at, your service roofing right now has a lot of really high quality people. A lot of people that would most roofing companies would kill for just one or two of them. And, you know, they have chosen to come work for at your service. I don't really recruit.

~ I'm just not good at it for one. And I've always kind of had a mindset of like, Hey, like if I have to convince them to come work here, then are, you know, how committed are they? ~ you know, And so when I look at like our list of employees, our roster of who's at your service, I'm very, I feel very proud of that. I feel very honored that these are high quality people and they're choosing to work here and be under my leadership.

And it's, it's, that's really humbling and exciting. So that would be up there. There's been a number of people in the roofing industry that have asked me to mentor them. And unfortunately, I'm just at this point.

I have to turn down any of those requests. I just don't feel like I can do it. I can't dedicate the bandwidth and the time to do it well. So I just can't do it, but I do have a core group of guys that I mentor and lead and watching their success, gives you a deep sense of satisfaction and it's pretty fun.

and then, you know, I, I, this term has been used. I don't like it of an industry leader. And I, know, to some degree, yes, maybe I would call myself an industry leader in certain areas. I think you usually it's used a little too generously.

~ But probably the biggest currently the biggest sense of like pride or accomplishment in my career is that I believe that John and I are having a statistically measurable impact on our industry. Like it might be small right now, but it's relevant. Like there is a number it's statistically relevant and we have had a real impact on this industry on the way thing, way that people operate, the way that the direction that the industry is heading. And I don't think there's many people that can say at the end of their career, at end of their life, like I had real influence on the direction and shaping of an industry.

And I'm starting to see that. I mean, I think we've accomplished it on a very small scale, but I think that we're set up to accomplish that on a much larger scale. that is, I mean, honestly, that's really my definition of success. Like if people, you know, what do you have to do to consider, for you to consider yourself successful or, you know, something along that lines, it's not a certain dollar amount.

It's not a certain you know, revenue number or employee number necessarily. It's like, did I leave my industry in a better place than I found it and actually shift the industry a little bit? ~ That's what I would I would view as a success. man.

Yeah, there are not a lot of people that can say that. So that's quite an accomplishment. No, I mean, you look at any industry and it's pretty hard to be like, you know, man, that this guy, that guy really helped shape the industry or really change the direction of it or something like that. And I'm not saying that I've done that.

~ Again, I think that I've had a small impact, but I do think and you know, we'll see what the future holds. I don't know. But I do think that it can be accomplished. And with any with any luck, we will.

Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I know you mentioned earlier when you first started out, your brother-in-law kind of put the crews together.

You mentioned that you have about 30 employees now. What is the mix of those 30 employees? Do you guys use primarily in-house crews? Do you utilize subcontractors?

How many sales guys do you have? What does that look like? So our employees are W2 employees. Our labor is 1099 subcontractor.

So the crews are not in that 30 number. You know, our gutter subcontractors are not, our siding subcontractors are not. And so ~ each branch has an office admin. Each branch has a production manager.

And then each branch has as many as what we call site supervisors as necessary. These are production guys who are on site on every build that we do, ~ interfacing with the homeowner, doing quality control, making sure things are done right, running materials. And so that number is going to fluctuate based on our pipeline and our volume. But generally speaking, I think as a whole, Yeah.

we probably have five or six production people, two admins. One kind of back office admin that's handling a lot of like the QuickBooks and accounting and accounts payable accounts receivable. We have a sales leader in each location, the general manager, one estimator, and then the rest is sales. So there's there's probably 15 sales reps, ~ we call sales consultants.

and then like I said, one estimator, two office admins, one back office, a GM. And then five, six production. Okay. All right.

Yeah, my attitude on production is really different than most of the industry. don't, I think that production is probably the easiest problem to solve. Like it can be standardized through checklist and standard operating procedures pretty, pretty quickly. And I don't want any of my bandwidth being spent there.

~ and so we've built a really clean process. Okay. We hire good people. I pay more than the average.

I mean, one we hire, we have more positions like my overhead and production is going to be a lot higher percentage wise than virtually any other company. But I don't have any issues there. We don't have bad reviews. We don't have upset customers.

We don't have sales reps that are like, man, you're killing my ability to get referrals because the crew didn't do their job right. I don't lose any sleep wondering, am I going to get a bunch of warranty claims like we put on really high quality products, really high quality labor, good good roofs. And yes, like I want to be able to say that, but ultimately I don't want my bandwidth. That's not a good use of my, my time and talents and energy.

So I'm willing to overspend there so that I don't ever have to deal with it. Yeah. My production manager, you know, when I split with my partner, he was handling production. And so I hired my production manager and it was probably about two years that he was with me and he came in and he goes, Chris, you know, we've never done like.

performance review or you know, how do I know if I'm doing my job well? And I said, Brent, when we talk, why do we talk? And he goes, well, usually there's a problem. I go, that's right.

Like virtually every time we're talking, it's because there's an issue. I go, how many times did we talk last year? And he goes, Chris, we probably only spoke three or four times all year. And I said, then you're doing a hell of a job and the performance review is over.

You know what mean? Hahaha! So I tell them like the less that we talk, the better job that you're doing. And so, ~ you know, and I say that obviously a little tongue in cheek, but it is true.

Like I, that's not, that sucks energy out of me. doesn't bring me energy. So I don't want to do it. ~ so I, I over staff it.

I pay it well. We have clean systems and processes there. And I mean, it really, It really runs smooth. It doesn't mean we don't have any issues, but I see hundreds of other roofing companies and I know what theirs look like and I know what's normal for the industry.

I know that there's usually tremendous amount of friction between the sales team and the production team and we do not have that problem. Thank, thank the Lord. And, ~ you know, that's a problem that can be solved relatively easily. So that's what we do.

Awesome. Well, I know you've been at this 20 years. We talked a little bit about you're kind of becoming the old guy in the industry, the veteran. Do you think it's still possible today?

Can ~ a young guy starting out today, can he do what you've done? ~ 100%. Yeah, without question. ~ There's not a lot of secret sauce.

know, the roofing industry, there's no barrier to entry. So anybody can can get in relatively easily. ~ Yeah, it these days you can find a mentor, you can find a mastermind group, you can follow the gurus or the coaches or there's so much free information available on on YouTube and Facebook. ~ And so yeah, 100 % you can do that.

~ I think in some regards, it's actually easier. We're going into a season in the industry, what I would call like the thinning of the herd. ~ there's a lot of companies going out of business right now that we've not really seen. And so I think that the opportunity is there.

~ I see no reason why I, not a single reason why somebody coming up in the industry couldn't repeat it and, and get to where I am. What took me 15 years to do, I think can be done in five years. man. Yeah, that's good to hear.

There's opportunity abound. Absolutely. And you find, you know, there are those mentors out there that share your line of thinking that share your values. And there's a lot of guys out there like me that are happy to help the next generation come up.

And most of us are willing to do it for free Yeah. or at least free in the beginning. ~ You know, and then, you're established. You've got money coming in.

If you want to continue this, I need to be paid. I need to be compensated. But in those early, you know, that first year or two, Yeah. you're going to find guys that are happy to help you and do it for free.

~ Yeah, I'm like literally trying to think of a single reason that would prevent somebody and I can't think of one and I can think of plenty of guys who have come up, you know, and it really it's going to come down to mindset. Like if you're. If you're trying to flash the Lambo and the Rolex and whatever, you're going to be a flash in the pan like those guys just don't win like there's very, very few examples of those guys really winning. Yeah.

But if you come up and you actually want to do things the right way, you want to take care of your customers, you want to take care of your employees, you want to build a strong foundation, super easy to do. Honestly, I don't even know what industry you could do it better or faster in. Like it's, there's a lot of opportunity here. man, that's good to hear.

Well, this is my favorite question I ask every guest. You've kind of alluded to it already, but are you a person of a particular faith tradition? And if so, how has that shaped building your business, your leadership, your journey? Yeah, this is something that I really don't talk about much.

~ And that's somewhat purposeful. usually, if someone asks, I'm happy to have the conversation, but I really don't like push it or promote that. ~ Yeah, you know, I would call myself a Christian. And you know, what does that mean?

That can mean a lot of different things. Generally speaking, I just believe the Bible. Like I believe that Jesus ~ was who he says he was. I believe that he did die on a cross.

He was resurrected. And I believe that scripture is, you know, God breathed, God inspired. And as far as, you know, denominations and everything else, I don't even know. My church, I think is a non-denominational church, which is in its own way a denomination.

So, ~ but as long you're teaching the Bible, I'm good to go. ~ I don't interject that into the business. I just believe that people should... know that you're a Christian by your actions and the way that you behave and the things that you do, and not because you told them.

Most people that I've seen that are very forward with their faith are, it's a mask, it's a shield, and they're doing some pretty thing, you know, behind the scenes that they know that, you know, they shouldn't be doing, and those things are going to come to light eventually. I also had, you know, a number of experiences when I was young where Like in high school, like it may be, was a freshman and there's a senior who like said, I'm this Christian, I'm this blah, blah. I'm leading the Bible study.

I'm, and then you see them do things and that really harmed, you know, they took me a while to, to reconcile that and understand that, you know, everyone's fallible. People make mistakes. Both of those things can be true. You can be a Christian and still have some, you know, weaknesses and still have sin in your life.

~ But I also don't want to be that stumbling block for somebody else. And so I don't want to sit there and preach and proclaim and everything else. And then, you know, another aspect of my life that I haven't, you know, ~ kind of flushed out or defeated yet and be that stumbling block for them. And ultimately, I just rather them know because of my actions and character and what I do.

And so I'm also not an evangelist. Like, that's just not my gifting. And so, you know, the Bible talks about, know, some people sow the seed, some people, you know, water it, some people harvest. And I believe, you know, I've actually been involved in a number of different ministries.

I actually led a young men's ministry in my early 20s and then again in my late 20s, early 30s, and really enjoyed that. There's really nothing more rewarding than doing that. ~ But again, I'm not an evangelist. ~ And so I'm not the, you know, the harvester really.

~ I'm more the guy planting the seeds and watering and cultivating. ~ You know, we talked about this before we kind of jumped on that, you know, the great commission is to make more and better disciples. And I'm, I'm a guy that's more gifted to making a better disciple than making more disciples. And that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be focusing on both or I'm not going to.

shrink back from that other responsibility. But that's just where my I feel like my giftings and talents are. And so that's kind of where I put them. Okay, awesome.

Well, thank you for that. And I know earlier you mentioned you're not kind of in the camp of scale and sell and looking for the big exit to private equity. You also mentioned that you're looking to launch a few ~ new branches, going to launch a couple every year for the next few years. What is the end goal?

What's kind of the next step where are you taking your business? Yeah, I appreciate the question. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to duck it. ~ I do have I don't have like a set in stone plan.

I do have a vision, but I just don't want to share that vision. I will say that I have no I don't have any interest in in growing Okay. and scaling and exiting. I'm not saying that I would never do that.

It's just that's not on my radar. And I will say that I have no interest in a legacy business, right? Like, you people ask all the time, you got four sons. Like, are you hoping that one of them takes over the business?

Like, absolutely not. I generally feel like I want my kids to be operating things, not in roofing. But even if they wanted to be in roofing, I would tell them like, this is mine. Go start your own.

If you want to work here, you can work here and then go start your own. ~ You know, if you worked all day and got a hundred dollars. Okay. And then the next day I just gave you $100.

You would spend that money much differently. One of this took my time, my effort, my sweat. I'm going to be very careful on how I spend this. The other one is just given to me.

It's free. It has no value, and I'm going to go spend it frivolously. It's the same thing with my business. If they don't put in the blood, sweat and the tears, they're going to destroy the business.

Like there's not a lot of really good multi-generational succession plans and businesses that I've seen. They are out there, but you know that's not on my radar either. I do want to exit. And take chips off the table, but I don't want that exit to be from my roofing company.

~ So in a perfect world, you know end game. Yeah, in a perfect world I would have an exit or two under my belt over the next few years and. I could be more ~ generous and. my other businesses.

I do have a plan for at your service and then ultimately, you know, I would love to be. Consulting, mentoring, investing in other companies, maybe sitting on a board seat and helping, you know, guide the vision and direction of companies. But I really don't have like a full end game plan. Like I said, there's so much things that are outside of my control.

that I know I'm not in control. And so I have a general idea of where I want to get to. And I know that all the things that I'm doing are generally pointing in that direction. And the actual path that it's going to be much, much different than I plan it to be or expect it to be.

But as long as I keep going in this general direction, I'm going to get to the end that I envision and want. And so that's kind of my plan currently. Okay, all right. kind of going back to the growth and scale like that.

I don't that's not inherently wrong or bad. I don't have a problem with that. It's just not my passion. I don't get a lot of joy from growth and scale.

However, we are in a mode right now where we're looking to grow and scale. And so I look at that more as providing, Yeah. you know, my mission, my why is to protect homeowners. Now, What I used to say is I can only protect so many homeowners in Cincinnati or Cincinnati and Cleveland.

And a lot of why I do the consulting and the coaching and the teaching is because now through those contractors I can help protect tens of thousands of homeowners all across the country. And so when we're looking to expand, it's to now we have a greater influence protecting homeowners in that market. We're providing better opportunity to the roofers in that market because this industry is full of, mean, there's not a sales guy in the industry that's been in the industry for more than a few years.

That doesn't feel like there's an owner out there that owes them a lot of money. ~ there's a lot of labor crews that feel like they are owed a lot of money. And so again, it's, I think that I can provide a better, ~ work environment, a better career path, a better culture than most roofing companies. And so the, the expansion and the growth, ~ is really, those are the drivers.

That's why we're doing it. but you know, it will increase the net worth. It will increase the value of the business. It will increase our revenue and hopefully our profit.

and, again, those are all byproducts it doesn't mean that those aren't worth something like that's worth a lot. Like I'm, we need money. Like we're going to make a profit, but it's not the driver. ~ as always, it needs to be the byproduct.

Yeah, I like that. think Rabbi Lapin says that profit is thank you notes from your customers. Bye. Yeah, that's, that's well said.

I don't know if I'm in 100 % agreement with that, Yeah. but I think that that's a really good way to look at it. A really good way to kind of shift the mindset. ~ Yeah, I would say referrals are a really good thank Yeah if you do a good job.

you note from your customers for sure. ~ But yeah, yep. There you go. Yeah, if you do a good job, if you care for your customer, if you look out for their best interest, they will pay you.

That's the result of doing good work. That's right. Are you solving their problems? ~ Is that your focus?

Right? Yeah. Love it. That's awesome.

My mission statement that I had for my roofing company had nothing to do with roofing. And about half of it had to do with solving problems because that's what we do. We primarily do it through roofing, but we solve our customers' problems. ~ Even if it isn't roofing, if it's in our capacity to help them with our problem, that's what we're going to do today.

We're going to help people solve problems. That's right. Love it. Awesome.

Well, I know you guys have your new AI platform, Gladstone, that's going to be coming live here in the next month or two. ~ You do some mentoring, some coaching. You're with Owens Corning. If somebody's looking to take advantage of the various resources that you have available, what's the best way to access those resources or get in touch with you?

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I do a poor job. We mentioned recruiting earlier. I'm not good at and marketing is something that I'm really not good at either. I would tell you that if you want more information from me, the best thing to do is just find me on Facebook.

~ Facebook forced me into being a creator, a digital creator, which I did not ask for. I actually got the stupid blue check mark thing today. I have been resisting that. Okay.

And Facebook's been pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. And I had something happen and where I was like, all right, I have to do this now. So, ~ but I, kills me that there's a little blue check mark behind my name. Now I really don't like that.

but if you go to my, if you can follow me on Facebook and, ~ you're going to see all the things that I do there. ~ the other thing is, ~ as far as in the roofing space, master your craft is the private, it's a closed Facebook group. You can. Ask to join and as long as you can answer four very simple questions, we're going to let you in and you're going to see a lot of things there.

You can go to the website, which is masteryourcraftgroup.com. So all one word masteryourcraftgroup.com.

And there's going to be a list there of our, ~ like the application process for master your craft, a list of our, ~ upcoming classes and stuff like that. But most of the things that I do get communicated ~ on Facebook. And so that's probably the best way to find me in what I'm doing. Okay, well I will make sure we get those links and link to your Facebook put in the show notes.

And I know you guys are working really hard on Gladstone. ~ You told us a little bit that it's kind of you and John all downloaded into an easily accessible resource. ~ Is there anything more you want to tell us about that about the potential customer base or what that can do for them? Yeah, I would love to because I am incredibly excited.

You know, we've been working on this for about a year and a half, but like my work on it has been more about shaping from the 30,000 foot view, like shaping what we're doing. Well, tweaking this, but it's not really been in the nitty gritty, but now we're at a point where we're ready to launch, where it's my job to now promote it and to show how to use it and to really take this thing where it needs to go because the foundation's been built. So I'm really passionate about this project.

~ It's focused on, it's focus is everything that John and I do, it's going to go back to two things. First and foremost is service. And then second is truth. there is a, both of those things tend to be pretty lacking in the restoration space of the roofing industry.

And so ~ first and foremost, it's a training tool, but it's really a communication tool. And so this is not, you know, there's, there's other programs out there like it. There are, ~ a lot of people that are building their own chat, GPT models, but it's all based on other information, information that's just out in the ether. And ours is not that way.

Most of these other products, you have to prompt it. You have to say, you know, here's my situation. I want you to talk about these things. And it's really in a, a tool to help you like speed up.

It's not really giving you the right information. It's just writing maybe that email first version for you and kind of helping you speed the process up a little bit. But you still have to prompt it. And if you don't give it the right prompts, if you don't know to ask about compatibility, if you don't know, hey, building code R904.

1, you know, lean into this building code. And then you got to do that every single time. And so ours is a closed source. And usually what I tell people is When I teach a class or John and I teach a class or John, we asked the question a lot of times, how much is it fair to say that you want to retain you were happy that you came here today and what you learned and you hope to retain everything?

And you know, most of the rooms like, you know, yes. And I go, being honest, what percent do you think you'll actually be able to retain? And they go, the most common answer is 20%. And I said, now our Are you guys going to go home and try to take that 20 % and train your team?

And they're like, yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And I go, what percent of that are they going to retain? And they go, probably 20%.

That's 4%. Not real good. And so the way to look at this is, what if there was a person who listened to every training that John and I ever did, fully understood it, fully downloaded it, comprehended it. And then that person was able to write every email in your company, whether that's to the homeowner, maybe to an insurance adjuster, to whoever is in the process, ~ and have a deep understanding of all of these things and, chat, GBT cannot right now do that.

It might get to the point, but even then a lot of this, our information is not being, it's not open AI. It's not going back into like the hive mind. And so. Yeah.

I don't think other AIs are going to be able to replicate. They'll be able to do a decent bit, but they're not really going to able to replicate what we're doing because it's all built on ours and it's not asking you to prompt it. It's very user friendly. It's going to read emails and write your responses for you.

Now you can then obviously prompt it and tweak it. ~ You can, there's a lot of settings that you can play with, but I think most people are going to go, that's a damn good email. I'm going to breed it. Yeah, it looks good.

Send. And so the amount of time and bandwidth, not to mention the improved results and all of the things that you would get from it are pretty strong. And again, we've already, it's been through beta. It's already been through like early access and we're not really getting any complaints.

We are getting, you know, feedback of like, this would be nice to have, or this could be better. ~ But the real world data has been way beyond my expectations on the effectiveness of it and the amount of time it's saving people. ~ And then when you compound that and you go, well, what are you going to do with all that extra time? Well, I'm going to sell more.

Okay, good idea. Or, hey, I'm going to spend more time with my family and I'm going to have a better, you know, mental state and bandwidth, which is going to make me a better employee or better leader and all of these things. so, and ~ generally when I ask people and if you're watching this right now and you're maybe in the industry and you're like, Ooh, this sounds pretty good. You know, I'd like a demo or man, if that's what he's saying, it is, that would be awesome.

I want to ask you like, what do you think you would want to pay for something like that? Like if it did what I, what I'm suggesting it does, what would that be worth to you? And how, and you know, think about that number, you got that number in your head. And I've done this many times.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that that number is probably around $200 a month. And then I ask, okay, if you're in the restoration side and you're working a number of files, do you think having this that you would have files that go to completion that otherwise wouldn't? And most guys are like, yeah, there's going to be some. And I go, okay, well, and then what about the files that you were going to complete anyway?

But Is it fair to say that these would be using this tool of Gladstone, you're going to complete them faster and they go, yeah, certainly they would get done. Yes, faster. OK, and then what they mounted. How many hours a week are you spending writing emails?

Thinking about how to write that email. Maybe jumping on a Facebook page and you know, asking the hive mind out there like what should I say here? So I ask you, you know how many hours a week do you spend doing that and and generally people say. you know, around five to 10 hours a week.

Well, that's, you know, 10 to 25 % of your work week, maybe that you're now getting back. Where do you put that time? What about, you know, I go, how hard is it to recruit in the in the in the space these days? Like, hey, if you want to be successful here, you're gonna have to learn all these things and take all this training and understand all this stuff.

And it's very difficult to take somebody from outside the industry and get them to where they're really effective. But if you have this tool, how fast are you going to And then I say, now that we've kind of thought through that, now, what would it be worth paying to have access to this? And so again, I ask you like, think about that number and I'm not going to know that number, you know, ~ but now usually the number that I hear is like a thousand dollars a month. And, ~ I go, great.

~ we're charging a hundred dollars a month. So it's a hundred dollars per month per user. is incredibly cost effective. The ROI is insane.

~ and, should, you know, around July one, you should have the opportunity, ~ to do that right now. The, biggest, ~ choke point is actually, ~ on boarding people. Like we don't have, we're, training up a team right now to do that. ~ our website isn't even up, ~ really.

I mean, you can go to the website, but there's it's under construction, right? It's gladstone dash AI.com. Again, that website is gladstone-ai.

com. ~ But we don't have the manpower to onboard people fast enough, and that's why we've got this waitlist that's there. ~ But yeah, I think that this is going to give a tremendous amount of freedom back to people, of time back to people, of success that otherwise maybe wasn't going to be there. For owners and sales managers, I think that it allows you to grow and scale much easier.

And ultimately, it's all about the homeowner. And I think that there's going to be you know, I mentioned my job, my mission is to protect homeowners. And I can't think of a better way a more efficient, more effective way to accomplish that. ~ Eventually, this tool will we want to get into the hands of the actual homeowner ~ and let them be doing it directly.

It's just that John and I, we don't have access The only way we're going to get it in the hands of homeowners is to spend a tremendous amount of money in marketing. But we, because we have access and influence in the, in the roofing space, we can bring it to the contractor first. So that's kind of a little update on Gladstone and what we're doing there. ~ but you can probably tell by my tone of my voice, I'm pretty excited about that project.

And, I've been waiting on this and sitting on it for a while now and it's finally there. ~ and so I'm just incredibly excited to roll this out and get going. That's awesome. That does sound like an exciting product and, ~ man, it's somebody that, most of my business was direct to customer, ~ business to business.

didn't do a lot of insurance or, ~ especially the supplemental stuff, ~ a tool like that could be huge for somebody that isn't well versed in that, that realm. So I didn't even mention that by the way, you know, supplements, I don't like the word supplement. don't, I've got some other thoughts on that, but one, another thing that the software can already do is you upload your estimate and then you upload the insurance company's estimate and it will immediately tell you what line items are missing.

Maybe this line item is the same, but the quantity, the linear feet or the squares are off, or this is the wrong price list. And so not only will it instantly identify what's missing from the estimate, but it will then say, you know, the justification of why that's necessary, the building code that enforces that, and then we'll, you know, ultimately write the email describing why these things are required and necessary. And so there's a tremendous, most roofing companies in that space are hiring a third party supplement company.

or they've brought it in house and they have staff overhead salaries to do those things. And now this tool instantly allows your, even your like low skill newer rep to handle it on their own. And, ~ I mean the, the amount of time savings, ~ the, the, amount of profit from having a properly written scope that, reflects the work that's actually being done. ~ Yeah.

And that's an afterthought on this product to me. That's like one I didn't even remember to mention, but that's something that's already built and we're very excited about that as well. man, that's great. Yeah, that sounds like a great product, a great benefit.

Our last question, I ask of most of our guests to either fuel or settle the debate. If you have a job to do that requires a cordless tool, which brand do you prefer? you know, it used to be DeWalt, but that's that, you know, ended many years ago. ~ I would tell you.

Okay. ~ there's a guy who's been one of my best friends for a long time, right? He worked with me for 20 years. ~ I would trust him in this.

His tools are Makita. And so, ~ I'm going to give you that that's the answer because I trust Joby, ~ to answer that question. If I'm going to go buy a set today, it's going to be probably either Milwaukee or Makita. ~ right.

Aren't the other, like the main ones are going to be DeWalt, which was bought by, you know, black and Decker. And I wouldn't be there anymore. Ryobi is like a great starter set. Like if I'm going to get my my oldest son is going off to college and if I'm going to get him, you know, here's you know, I'm going to get him some Ryobi.

but yeah, if I've, if I've got them, all right, I'm going to say Milwaukee or Makita, but I'm going to go with my trusted source, which is my buddy, Joby and say Makita would be the way to go. What are, what are the other common responses? Awesome. What's the, ~ I'd love to know.

~ Milwaukee and and DeWalt are the two most popular. They've kind of been vying for the top spot. We've had a few guests that kind of set for a homeowner level ~ craftsman. Yeah, it had somebody else voting for Makita.

So. I mean, craftsmen, I think, you know, they used to have like a lifetime guarantee and I don't know if they still do that, Yeah. but I mean that, that is pretty strong. DeWalt, like I said, would have been my, my choice 10 years ago.

~ but yeah, you I don't, I don't think I could stand behind that, ~ decision any longer. ~ so yeah, Ha ha ha. good. Well, Chris, thank you so much for joining us.

I know you gave up a significant amount of time to be with us here today. You're a busy guy. You got your fingers in all kinds of things and your wisdom, your knowledge, your experience is extremely valuable. So I really appreciate the time.

Love it. I appreciate you having me on. had a lot of fun and yeah, I appreciate the invite and the time as well. Awesome.

And thank you guys for joining us here on From the Ground Up Show. Again, pause the episode, send it to a friend, send it to somebody that might benefit. Don't forget to check out our merchandise store, shop.fromthegroundupshow.

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