Founder Journey ft. Ron Spreeuwenberg

Host: So Ron, I'm gonna position similarly to how I did with Sally to kind of kick it off, uh, because again, you do have like another company, um, successfully built, scaled, exited. Um, you've been an entrepreneur for a long time. Um, you have a pretty great, um, hold on. What it takes to be successful and built here. But going back to the beginning, what made you really want to. To build something yourself and solve a problem?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Check, check.

Co-host: Yeah.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, so for me that one actually goes pretty far back. Um, like way. I'll try to keep this as concise as possible, but um, uh, my. My paternal grandfather was ah, a farmer, um, in, in Brazil. And then he uh, moved. He, he's Dutch and moved back to the Netherlands and he uh, had a mushroom farm. And then, uh, my father was actually a mushroom farmer, uh, here in Canada. He had immigrated here um, in the 70s. And um, he, he always wanted to. One of his friends also came over at the same time and he started a mushroom farm on his own. So he had his own mushroom farm business. And my dad was just like the mushroom farm grower. And he, he, I think he always like, was a bit jealous of his friend who immigrated at the same time and started his own business. And um, uh, there was an unfortunate, uh, event in my, my father's life where he was hit head on by a drunk driver when he was like, shortly after they immigrated to Canada. And that like, severely impacted his mobility and like his willingness to take risk. So that was like something that like affected his ability to start his own business and be an entrepreneur because he's like, look, I'm gonna, I need to make money for my family to pay the bills. Um, uh, and then he also ended up passing away a bit younger than he should have. So for me it was like he never had the chance to start his own business and be an entrepreneur. And so I wanted to be able to do that, um, I guess partially on his behalf. And maybe also I could see there was a bit of regret in him that he didn't have that chance and I didn't want to have that feeling.

Co-host: So how did you start your journey? What was the first time you were entrepreneurial?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: The first time I was entrepreneurial, um, probably when I. Not so smartly. Uh, after a family trip to the U.S. uh, I realized firecrackers are very easily available here and they're very cheap. So I bought a whole bunch of them and decided to sell them on the schoolyard, uh, in like grade seven or something. And uh, you know, not surprisingly, one of the people I sold them to decided it would be a good idea to light some off at recess time on the schoolyard and I, uh, ended up in the principal's office and. But I did make, I did make some good money.

Speaker D: So anyways,

Host: I don't even know how to transition because.

Co-host: How, how do your parents react?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, I don't know. I mean, they were like, I'm trying to remember actually like what happened in that situation. I think like, normally I was a pretty good kid. So like, uh, you know, I, I wasn't the one setting off the firecracker. So um, I kind of blamed it on the, on the guy I sold it to. I'm like, look, I was just making a transaction come with a warning to

Host: say like, don't set them off into.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: I, I totally gave that entrebal.

Host: You should.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, I gave the verbal one.

Co-host: Okay, so, so that, So I guess that was not a repeatable business.

Speaker D: It was a.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: No, no, that was a one day business.

Co-host: Uh, you know, so as you go forward, you know what was next.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, so I, I would say I had a little bit more of a, like a less traditional route to entrepreneurship. So I, uh, I also did chemical engineering actually. Same as Sally at Water Waterloo. Um, I, uh, and I think I was lucky to go to Waterloo because as many of you I'm sure, know, like there's a great entrepreneurial culture there. And so that kind of kept that really alive in me that like, you know, this is something I really want to do. Um, and uh, I had a roommate who uh, he was quite into business and I, this was something I didn't understand anything about. And he always really impressed me because he would like, he would brag to me that he would like go do these co op programs and he would do no work, but he would just be like build great relationships with everybody and he would get like these great reports at the end. And his brother was an entre.

Co-host: Was that true or is he full of shit?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Uh, no, I think it was true. Like he was good at that. And I was just like, I was just like, this is magical. Like the stuff you can do without actually doing anything. So anyways, I was like, is that business? Like, I don't know. So anyways, he got me really curious about it. So then when I graduated I started uh, in consulting, uh, at Deloitte, doing strategy and operations consulting. And then I went and I did an MBA at Harvard Business School. And after all of that, which was like five years after graduating from engineering, then I, uh, Went back to work for a couple of years and started a business.

Host: So what was. Well, I guess I'll kind of just dive into because you kind of left it open. What was the business that you started, uh, after you kind of finished school and did all of that?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, yeah. So, um, I was working at Deloitte Consulting in London in the UK at the time, and we were moving back to Canada. And I said, look, if I'm ever going to start a business, like, this is a great time. Because at my organization in the uk they knew I was leaving. Um, and so I was like. And I didn't have kids, I didn't have big bills to pay. I'm like, now's the time. So I quit my job and I was just like, I'm going to start something, I don't even know what it is. Um, and I just started talking to people in my network that I knew who were, uh, entrepreneurial. I got connected into networks like Tech2 and this kind of thing. And eventually I spoke to somebody who had a toddler in daycare and we started talking about that experience. And um, ah, he was telling me that like, you know, this is 2013. He's telling me every day I get these like written daily reports about what my son did at, uh, daycare and like, you know, what he had and when he used the potty and like what he learned. And he's like, every day I bring it home, he's like, half the time I can't even read it because they're doing like 10 and they're looking after like little kids at the same time. Like, you can only imagine how focused they are on writing those things. And then he's like. And then I don't even know what to do with it when I get home. So I throw it in the garbage. And then I just feel really guilty as a parent because I'm like throwing my kids stuff away. Um, and then we're kind of like, okay, well this sounds like an interesting problem to solve.

Co-host: So based on one conversation, you got interesting problem solve. You don't have kids yourself. So did you just go start the company? What'd you do next?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, so, um, I followed very much the lean startup approach, which was like, to get, uh, increasingly, uh, greater proof points as cheaply as possible along the way. So step one was like, okay, this sounds uh, interesting. Um, let me just literally open up, uh, the yellow pages which existed at the time and call like 10 daycares. I just called 10 Daycare. They said hello, like uh, aspiring entrepreneur, thinking of this idea, like, do you have five minutes to give me your feedback? And I basically just gave them the concept which is like, you know, do you do these daily report things? Like what if you did it digital? Wouldn't that be cool if the parents like also could get photos or like videos and like could message you and uh, it's more interactive and engaging for them and just kind of got a reaction. And like when I called 10, like seven or eight of the 10 were like very intrigued. They're like, yeah, that sounds pretty interesting. So that was like literally an hour of my time that validated this is an interesting idea. Yeah.

Host: So from there now you have kind of like validation of concept. You, you know that there's, there's a need for this. So um, beyond kind of like you have that initial concept, like what does it look like to build something like this? Like obviously you, this is your first kind of like venture into entrepreneurship. Like what was the process like for you to kind of now like iterate further on this?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, so I took a pretty methodical approach from there. So I created uh, an interview script, uh, that had like open ended questions, questions that were like quantitative, like on a scale of 1 to 10, whatever. And I went and I met with about 50 childcare directors and owners in person and I did these interviews with them. Um, and uh, that A, let me understand them and their business really, really well and their challenges and uh, B, ah, was the critical input to the design of the MVP product.

Co-host: And was it just you, who was your team? Who was your co founders?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, so um, uh, it was me and my co founder Alana. Uh, she was cto, Uh, I was CEO, amazing, um, developer from Carnegie Mellon. Um, that was a great like reverse story uh, of uh, an American working uh, in Canada for a Canadian startup. Um, and so I basically the initial product, I took the survey feedback, kind of did a basic, you know, design like being an ex consultant, I did it in PowerPoint, send it to Alana and uh, she just did V1 basically. And then um, we, that was very hacked for sure. And then we had like three or four pilot locations and then off to the races.

Host: And so now how are you getting customers? Like how now it becomes, you know, you want to be selling this and you want to get customers. So what was that like? Was it again like more of the physical, like you would come and present it to them or did it just become like one daycare tried it, it was great and then became kind of like a word of Mouth referral process. What was that like?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, so I would say there's a lot of stages to that. Um, stage one was um, you know, this uh, term of like customer development process. And so this, the other amazing part of interviewing 50 childcare programs in person was I now had 50 leads, right? And from those 50 interviews, like you, you knew right after, you're like, okay, like these 10, they're not going to be ready. Like these 20 are somewhere in between, like maybe later in a, in a year or two. And then like these 10, like they might want to buy right away. And these 10, like, you know, once I have a couple more proof points, might, might be there kind of thing. So like you, that, that's your lead list right there. So our first few customers, paying customers, were from those in person interviews. And it, it, it's such an organic process because you survey them and you're literally not selling them anything. When you're surveying them and you're meeting them and then you're like, you, at the end, you're just like, do you mind if I, like, I think we might actually build this thing. When we do, do you mind if like we show you it? They're like, they're all 10 times out of 10, they're like, sure, yeah. And then you show it to them and they're like, oh, wow, like this is great. This is what you said you were going to do. And I like, like, and, and, and it's very like organic sales process.

Host: They almost probably felt like they contributed to the building process of it too.

Speaker D: Right?

Host: Because it was their initial feedback. Yeah, totally. Cool. Yeah.

Co-host: So like, you, to go back that time and think about what's the mindset? Cause you found this opportunity, you do you just start doing this process. Did you say, uh, were you thinking this is going to be a massive business? You know, I, I, I remember, if I remember correctly, you bootstrapped it for a few years. So sort of like you got, um, you wanted to start something. You just got into it. Like, what was your mindset? What were you hoping to accomplish? What were you thinking about the future? Was it like, let's just go.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, like I, I was taking very much a step by step approach. And like, my goal was to create a quote unquote successful business. Like, you know, a business that could run on its own. We could have some employees, we could, you know, get paying customers and I can make a living off of it. And then let's see what, what, what happens next. Um, and like, you know, I, you Know, I, I graduated chemical engineering from Waterloo. I got my MBA at Harvard and I spent the next, my first year or a year and a half like cold calling daycares and like, like sitting in like wee little chairs doing training sessions and like Richmond Hill with like uh, you know, 20 early childhood educators showing them how to use our app and stuff. Like I did that for at least a year, year and a half.

Co-host: So quick follow up questionnaire. Like, you know, HBS has had a mix of very successful traditional careers and lots of entrepreneurs. Um, is that a hindrance or was that helpful at that point or sort of limiting because you know, naturally you're going to talk to your friends from your class. Maybe, maybe you weren't. But like, you know, how did that affect your mindset, being influenced by your hbs, um, classmates or experience? Was it better or worse or. No, no impact.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: I would say at the early stages of a startup, no impact. Like um, I mean the beautiful thing about America is they're very open to failure and nobody cares if you tried something and it didn't work out. Um, I would say it was helpful, it was helpful in later stages. So like if you want to, if you're going to raise money or whatever, it kind of like helps having some pedigree I would say. Um, but in the early days, no difference. And certainly like I would avoid bringing it up with any kind of customers or anything like that.

Co-host: Like, no, I guess, sorry. And I'll just, I want to double down on this because like again I have my MBA from Wharton, so now as good as hps. Um, but like you're surrounded by a bunch of classmates, especially a few years out that are kill, quote, unquote, killing it or have started a big successful company. So like, does. Is there something that says, okay, I have to be as ambitious as them? Or like was there any comparison? Because I find out with lots of people and maybe, maybe I'm just projecting

Speaker E: here

Ron Spreeuwenberg: it's a thing, I guess it's a bit of a thing. Like I never really cared about that. Like, I don't know. Like I honestly, I remember having a conversation with, with uh, some of my friends at Harvard Business School at one point and like everybody was talking about the things they wanted to do in their life and career and I'm like, I think I've hit the pinnacle of my career right now. I went to Harvard Business School. Like I never, I never anticipated doing this. Fair enough. Like neither of my parents went to college or anything. So I was like, this is amazing. Um, so, um, but, but the funny thing too is, by the way, and this is fresh in my mind because I just went back for the 15 year reunion, like five year reunion. Everybody's like kind of jockeying for position about all the amazing things they've done and like career and whatever. And then like slowly but surely, like by the 15 year anniversary, nobody even talks about what they're doing anymore. They're like, these are my kids. Like, this is where I live. Like, this is the. Like this is my life. And then, and then like, maybe they'll be like, this is like my job or whatever. Like, nobody cares anymore.

Co-host: It's funny, I was just back from my reunion. I think it was like, okay, let's have a few drinks and like, oh shit, we can't drink like we used to. And the next day was really bad. But that's a whole other story. Um, take us back to where we should be.

Host: That's okay. I want to just, um. Yeah, no, this is great. I want to get back into like the product itself because. So, um, also just more so for like those who might not be familiar. Familiar with high mama with the product. But, um, it sounds very similar to something that, um, really good friends of mine have dogs and they use a similar technology for their dogs. Right. It's like they were well behaved. They went out at this time to use the washroom, whatever. Um, did you ever see it evolving kind of beyond like child daycare specifically and being used in other capacities? I suppose, or did it evolve obviously beyond, uh, what it was being used for initially?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: For sure. I would say that was a good, like, early learning thing for us though. Like, we actually had some dog daycares use our product. Cause it's literally the same thing. Like you're just putting in dogs instead of kids. Um, need to know when they use the washing. Yeah, they all need to like go potty and eat food and have naps. Um, so, uh, but it turns out like, like one of the big advantages of being very focused and in our case, like, you know, we were vertical SaaS, um, we got to know early childhood education so well that we gained a lot of respect from and trust from those in the field. And that took a long time to build. And as soon as we, if we ever said like, oh, by the way, we also do like doggy daycares, like, we would have lost that trust, like almost overlay overnight. Uh, and another interesting case study on this is we had a competitor, um, who also did like, uh, the same thing for aging adults. So like in, in old age homes and whatever. And it failed. Like, like the focus is like uh, such a huge core principle in the way that I think about business and operate. Like you can't afford dilution of focus as a startup. Um, and that crushed that business. Like sure, they got some additional revenue at first because they went into a new vertical, but like it crushed their ability to scale over time.

Host: Right. It's, it's interesting because um, I've obviously heard both ways where it's like now it's like the product has been developed, but it's like how do we evolve the product beyond to reach like different kind of core audiences or core groups. But in your case like you found it to be the opposite. That yeah, trust was just diluted by doing it that way or having that approach.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, like I, um, like especially if you're in a vertical, like that's critical. Like if you're horizontal software, obviously that's different. But like I, I watched this uh, video, uh, like YouTube, uh, video of this guy, I think he was the CRO at a company called Slice. And they, they, they're, they're literally like software for quick service pizza restaurants only. But like they own everything in the value chain of like the pizza shop, which is kind of brilliant. Like, because you just know that one thing so well that like nobody can compete with you because that's all you do.

Co-host: So let's go back. You, you bootstrapping, you've launched. When did you start feeling that you had product market fit? How did bootstrapping impact your ability to get there?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, the bootstrapping was key in terms of just spending that time with the customers because like, as a founder, like you have to have the conviction in what you're doing. Like, I actually think that's important. I think uh, I think it was Peter Thiel's kind of concept that he says in one of his uh, books or writings around like, you know, the secret, like you have a secret. Like that's what I felt like. And like there's lots of people who would say like, you know, I don't think this is going to work for XYZ or whatever. And because of my conversations and like some of the early, like we had that thing of like, you know, the 10 customers who loved our product. And we had tons of folks that I spoke to who are like, no way, not in a million years. There's no way any, any childcare programs are going to want to use this for all these reasons. But we had the ten who Loved it. And I, like, I knew that they knew the secret, like, of why this thing worked. And a critical part of that, by the way, was that they were thinking about their customers. And their customers are, uh, the parents. The parents are the ones who pay the children's tuition and the revenue for that childcare program to operate. And they were the ones that were thinking about that and thinking, what's good for my customers is good for me.

Host: Just out of curiosity, did you find that building something tailored to children in the childcare space as someone who didn't have children, did that, like, impact, maybe, like, trust or people, uh, saying, like, you don't really understand because you don't. You're not the one that would be using, like, you're not your target audience, essentially.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, I, I, I, I would get the question a lot about, is that why you started it? Um, but I think the bigger trust barrier to cross was not that I didn't have kids, it was that I wasn't part of early childhood education sector. And I was like, and especially in a sector like that where there's a lot of nonprofit, they don't make a lot of money. It's not like they have huge margins. And you can kind of get pegged as the external business person who just wants to make a bunch of money off this industry. And so we had to prove that slowly but surely over time that we really legitimately did want to help these folks. And that's where the vertical focus really helped.

Co-host: Talk about attracting talent, building a culture. Even though Toronto is not the Valley, like we've heard a couple times over the week, it is still one where there's a lot of companies raising money, getting a lot of attention. So here you're a bootstrap company, vertical SaaS for the childcare space. How do you get the talent you need? And how do you build a culture that wins?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, so culture was really important for me and for the company. Um, like, I would go, you know, you guys were talking with Sally a bit about VCs. Like, I would spend time talking to VCs about our culture. And, like, most of them would gloss over and I'd be like, that's fine. Like, if you don't care about culture, then, like, I don't care for you to be an investor in my company. Um, like, we were lucky to raise a Series a from round 13, and they understood the value of culture. Like, great culture means you can attract great talent, which means you can create a great business. And that was great for them to have that, um, that foresight. Um, so, um, you know, I think like, so we, we had core values that we set quite early on in, in the company. Um, number one was, number one of, on that list was be a good person. And we really stuck to that in our hiring principles. Um, and like, for me too, especially in the early days, like, I took a chance on a lot of people, uh, who arguably were like really underqualified for various roles. Like our top salesperson ever, who absolutely crushed it, um, was chef, um, one of our second best salesperson was an um, early childhood educator. So we tried to hire early childhood educators, which was great as well, um, to give them, uh, additional career opportunities. And we had somebody who, yeah, it was like a college dropout. He was doing like some door to door stuff, commissions only, and took a shot on him. And he was with us for many, many years and sold millions of dollars of software.

Co-host: How did you

Speaker D: know?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, honestly, early on it was a little bit of a, um, ah, a gut instinct thing. Which, you know, in hindsight some like, sometimes worked well. Sometimes I would say it always worked well. But. And you should always, you should never go again, uh, against your gut or instinct when hiring. In fact, like, usually lots of times when I've made bad hires, it was because I went against my instincts. Um, but uh, you know, I also learned over time the benefits of being more clear on like your hiring profile and like why you want certain types of people. And I think in that case, like I had that in my head, but I hadn't documented that in like a formulaic way. But like, for me, I wanted scrappy people that weren't, that were like, believed in themselves and like, they wanted somebody to give them a shot and I was willing to give them a shot. And they proved themselves and that was like, and they had like forever loyalty for a company for giving them that shot.

Host: So um, we've, we've talked a little bit about like the bootstrapping journey and then obviously like your kind of tactic and strategy around talent. So you did end up raising capital. I believe it was $90 million. Uh, so from bootstrapping to now, like fundraising coming together, like, what does that look like? How did that end up coming together? And then why was it perhaps the right time to begin the conversations around raising capital?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, we would have been happy to go as long as possible forever without raising capital. Um, but we had a competitor who raised 10 to 20 million bucks in the Valley and we're like, damn you. You know, it's, it's kind of like, uh, whoever can reach the prospects first might win. It's a bit of a land grab situation and if we don't do something, we might just get crushed. So it was a little bit more reacting to, to the competitive landscape. In hindsight, I think it was still the right decision. Like, we kind of had to, um, but it wasn't, it wasn't something, you know, going back to your question before, like, we had. We never started the business being like we want to. Our goal is to raise money and scale using that money.

Co-host: And so you start off in Toronto, you're meeting all the people, the first 50 customers you met before you had a product. Uh, now there's competitive states, you raise money. So what was the challenge of breaking out of Toronto or breaking to the States? Was that why you raised money? Were you in the States already? And how did you expand beyond Toronto? Because I feel child. While imagine child care is very similar across the world, there's a lot of regulations, um, I think on the provincial or at least the state level. So how do you get beyond Ontario?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: So one of the reasons why I think we were successful as an ed tech company is because we are in early childhood education and it is more standardized across all provinces and states in North America. Whereas if you're selling to school boards, that's a whole different ball game and a very brutal sales process. Uh, as anybody who has sold into education could tell you. Um, so that helped us a lot. I would also say, like, one of the things we, that was a good decision was we started selling into the States very early and very aggressively. Uh, and we learned the lesson early on that I think a lot of Canadian startups learn, which is Americans make decisions faster, they buy faster, they take more risks than Canadian purchasers. And we certainly experience that. They'll tell you no faster. Uh, they'll like sometimes say mean things to you, but they'll also buy your product faster.

Co-host: You think Canadians don't say mean things?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Never.

Co-host: Never, I'm sure.

Host: Not once, apparently.

Co-host: Um, so what was the most biggest surprise or challenge in scaling?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, I think I underestimated some of the communication challenges of scaling. As a founder with a smaller team, everybody in and around you just becomes part of the culture. As you work in the office together, you don't have to be that proactive, but as you grow, you actually have to be proactive about your culture and your team and communication. Um, and also just like the, like the ballooning process and bureaucracy, like, not even bureaucracy, but just like overhead is Real like. And I. And that pained me so much as somebody who, like, one of the other reasons why I wanted to start my own company is because every company I worked in, I was like, this is a disaster. Like, how is this. How is every company a disaster? And then I started seeing it happen in my company a bit. I'm like, oh, really?

Speaker E: Yeah.

Co-host: This is how, uh, what size has become bureaucracy? Was it number of customers, a number of employees? What drove it?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Employees. Employees for sure. Like, I'd say, like, once you kind of get above 100ish, like, you start to get. Eric, you start to like, have senior people who aren't in tune with things. Like, maybe you're not. Like, at some point too, like, I stopped interviewing everybody we hired, which maybe was a mistake even. Like, uh, but at some point you got to let go as a founder. Like, it's just really hard that, that transition point when you start to lose direct touch with like, most of the people in your team.

Host: Yeah. And you're putting so much trust in like, others kind of like maintaining like, I guess the hiring vision. Obviously the company vision is one thing. Um, like, I guess, um, just using that and like, what you learned from that process. Because you do have to be hands off at one point. Like, what's the advice for. For those that are kind of in the throes of like, they're trying to hire, they can't be involved. Like, what was maybe not even a quick fix, but like something that you would do today or are doing today.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, I mean, uh, like we got better at it for sure. Like, we made mistakes and learned and like, like the key is to have just like, like a hiring framework, frankly, that like, it comes from you as the founder of like, here's what's important when we hire somebody. The other thing that I, that I found was extremely beneficial. And if you, like, if you don't have it as you scale, like you gotta get it is like as part of onboarding, the founder has to spend some decent amount of time with every new hire. Like, you have to. You can't bring on new people. And then they don't meet the founder. Like, or like they, they just like nobody can tell the story the same as the founder. Like, the passion about why you're doing it and everything. Like, you have to have that conversation with your new employees.

Co-host: So you start a business because you want to start one start, you know, and uh, you start building it. Eventually you have an exit. So why did you decide to exit? How big was it at that point, if you can share that, like, why, why exit? You, you know, you got the dream, you got a business that seems to be working.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah. So when I exited, um, when we raised ah, Series B from Bain Capital, um, I sold a good chunk of my equity then, uh, and then I sold more of it, um, a bit later. Um, we were, you know, we were ten, uh, thousand plus childcare organizations at that time. Um, kind of like a couple hundred employees. Um, why that time? Like for me, uh, I would say two things. One is I'd been at it 10 years and I'm kind of looking at like, okay, I'm going from single digit years to double digit years doing this thing and it's been awesome. But like, um, you know, it's a grind. Like I have young kids at home and like, you know, I've, I've been working long hours for a long time and I'm like, do I want to keep doing this for another five or ten years? I don't know. Uh, and here I have an opportunity with like a large investor who wants to purchase my equity in the business. Um, and then um, you know, the other thing too I would say is like my quote unquote job had changed a lot over the years, right? And I, you know, like, I really liked the early days. I really liked salt, problem solving, rolling up my sleeves, building things. And like, over time as a founder CEO, like you start to become like less of a founder and more of a CEO and like your job becomes like, you know, board meetings and meetings with the senior leadership team and like, those are all good learning experiences and things to do. But like, it's very different than like, especially for someone like with an engineering background. Like, like I like, I like rolling up my sleeves and solving problems and I was kind of like starting to get away from that. So uh, like I would say like my overall fulfillment with what I was doing had kind of changed a bit.

Host: Uh, so. Okay, so, um, I want to just go into like some of the things that you said too. So, so the exit kind of comes together. That's sort of like the mentality around. So uh, obviously you're doing something right now currently with society, but I want to get into kind of the time period between both. So like how long approximately did you kind of like, did you ever take time off and just say like, I need a rest now that I'm kind of, I'm out. Or did it become like again that sort of, you know, you liked the problem solving and you, you got right back into it again. Like, what was the. The transition or that time?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, no, I totally chilled out for like a year. Basically, Like, I just traveled. I went to see. Visit my brother in Hong Kong, my buddy in India, and took, um, the kids out of school for a couple months and, like, just traveled. Like, it was amazing, really. Like, uh, and I needed that time to kind of re. Re. Energize. Like, I definitely felt like I kind of lost my creativity too, because I kind of tired, frankly. Um, and then. And then after about a year, I was like, okay, like, I think I, Like, I have enough energy to, like, start thinking about maybe something else. Um, but, like, per your last conversation with Sally, like, in exploring new entrepreneurial opportunities, like, the bar is just so high now, um, having gone through it, that, like, I thought of all kinds of business ideas. I'm like, this is a great business idea that, like, you can make a lot of money. And, like, somebody should go do that who's not me.

Co-host: Do you ever post those on social

Ron Spreeuwenberg: media and share it?

Co-host: Here's a good idea. And I get 5%.

Host: Someone else do it. Yeah.

Co-host: So, Sudan, what are you doing now? And why?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, so this was a bit, um, unscripted. And I think, like, my life and career has been a little bit like that. Um, I've been a bit opportunistic. And, like, I had a few, like, over. You know, I'd have the odd recruiter, uh, or folks reach out to me about opportunities. Most of them were not very interesting. Um, and then somebody reached out to me and they said, I'm working with this organization, and, um, you know, they help support non, uh, profits and charities. Uh, and I'm like, okay, that's intriguing because I, like, I care about social impact. Um, and, you know, I'm not. I wouldn't go start a business to just go make money now. Like, that doesn't interest me. Um, so I was like, okay, cool. And I had a few conversations. And then the guy who started it, uh, also is, like, just a really good dude. Um, and I'm like, okay. Like, I could see myself working with him. And, like, I. I realized over that, taking that year off, like, I. I worked in VC a bit. I was helping entrepreneurs and being an advisor and whatever. But I realized I really missed, like, working with a team and solving problems together. Like, I realized that's something I just, like, that's not work to me. I love doing that.

Co-host: Cool. I'm just nowhere but 10 on time. So. Do you have a last question, Riley?

Host: Uh, no. I Mean, mine I think is, is kind of more just like all encompassing. And I get every journey and every founder's perspective is going to be different. But in your case, like this is a room full of those that are building right now that are founders. Like what's just a really valuable, actionable piece of advice that you could just give to this room right now?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Um, an actionable.

Host: That's a tough question.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, an actionable piece of advice. Um, like I think if I had to give one piece of advice, it's like don't get distracted by all the noise. Like, like in the first like probably even like five years of my company I was just heads down, like talking to customers, selling, working with my team. Like I didn't care about like what was in the media, who was raising what money. Talking to venture capital. No, venture capital wanted to talk to us anyways but you know like that would be my advice and like, like I'm, I'm now part of a, a uh, group of post exit entrepreneurs and 90% of those entrepreneurs have not raised external capital or if they have, it was like you know, 10 years after they started their company. And these are all like the most successful entrepreneurs that I know and they're not ones that went and raised tons of money. Like they're the ones who built with their heads down for 10 years and they created great businesses and there's a lot of investors who want to buy great businesses.

Host: Cool.

Co-host: We'll open to audience now. Any questions?

Host: So we'll run the mic to you. There's a few.

Co-host: I also know that group and I think they're very well adjusted humans too, which is odd.

Speaker F: Hi, Abbas here, uh, Tech two. Thanks for this whole week, uh, events. This was really useful. Ron, thanks for being here. My question to you is about something that I haven't heard of anyone on stage. Speaking of, what is your advice for founders when it comes to turn their back to what they're working on, whether they've reached an MVP or they're still at an idea stage. And the other side of the question is when is the right time to, to exit a successful venture? Successful means that it's still doing very well, but maybe it's just time to exit. Thank you.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: And sorry, just to clarify your first question, by turn your back on you

Speaker F: mean like, like just give it up.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Give it up. Yeah, yeah. Uh, it, it's hard to answer that question but I, I think my best answer to that question is like, similar to like the hiring thing and your like instinct in your gut about hiring somebody. I feel like it's the same thing with a business idea or a business you're working on, which is like, if you don't have total conviction in that, as far as I'm, as far as I, I believe it's not gonna ha. It's not gonna happen. Like, if you have any doubts at all, like, it's probably not the right thing. And I'm not saying you should stop working on it. Maybe you need to pivot or do something differently. But you need to know that's gonna work because you have to be all in. As an entrepreneur, you can't. Like, if you have 98% confidence in what you're doing, it's gonna be really hard. You need to have 110% confidence when to exit. Um, that's a good question too. And you're right. It's not talked about very often. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with it because again, there was some conversation before where like, your business becomes part of your identity and to sell it becomes like, almost like offensive. Uh, and I think that's a mistake. Uh, I think that's where it's helpful to talk to serial entrepreneurs and people who have more experience because there is the objective reality that there's good times to sell your business. And frankly, you should, uh, be opportunistic about that as an entrepreneur.

Speaker E: Hey, Rob. Um, good morning. Uh, my name is Tony. I met Sammy Lau. I think you're director of marketing. We went to the same school. He gave me some good advice a couple years ago. Uh, but I was just curious. I'm interning in a small angel fund right now, and I was just curious based on the previous question on, uh, goalpost moving and not taking early, early capital taking on, you really needed to scale. Uh, I've never built a business. So I'm just very curious to hear your perspective on the value in early in angel checks, early stage capital, or just bootstrapping and figuring it out before you start raising?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, I mean the reality is it is hard to do it with nothing and just the money out of your own pocket. I think there is some good, like, alternative funding sources that aren't just going down like the standard VC track of like pre seed, seed, series A, etc. Etc. Etc. So like, I think those like, like talking to angel investors is interesting, frankly. Like, I think that is a good, like, way to get some capital and start working with somebody who is a bit more, uh, like experience. There's also like, uh, there's. There's debt, which is also not like you can get a loan. Um, and in Canada we're lucky that we have some good programs like through business development Canada and, and uh, other government programs for funding. So um, I don't shy away from opportunities like that. And I think again, if your instinct says this was someone I really respect and would like to work with, uh, and I think they're going to add value beyond the money they're investing. I think an angel investor can be really valuable. But not all angel investors are the same. I don't do a lot of angel investing because I don't think it's a good, uh, use typically not a good investment, um, strategy. Um, if I do honestly, I do it just because I want to help a founder and I like, I really like them and I believe in what they're doing and I believe in them as a person and I like, I give them the money and I just assume I'm never going to get it back. And if I do, then, then great.

Co-host: I'll also jump in here. Um, when we're investing because we invest pre seed usually we'll encourage the founders to get some other, let's say angels around the table. It's usually either people that are just like their biggest fans. So it's like someone they used to work for that wants to see them make progress because it's good to have someone, you can call that as a bit of skin in the game that's going to give you that encouragement or be brutally honest with you when you need it. Or someone that can be strategic help understands industry may have some contacts, but we try to really avoid a lot of them because especially inexperienced angel investors start calling you and saying, hey, I just read that someone raised a hundred million dollars in competing with you or hey, it's been 26 months, I need my money back. Um, you know, so I think if you're picking angel investors, like again, people need capital and there's many ways to find it. We actually may have recordings from what we did on Tuesday because we did five hours on how to different different ways to raise money. But be very clear when someone's coming on your is investing in your company, if you're successful, it's they need to be there for 10 years. So you want to know who they are and what they're gonna do. Because the uh, worst thing is to get a call every Friday. Like so I'll take it, even make it more personal. My venture fund, my dad's asked me to invest every single Fund. There's no way I'm taking money from him because he can't. He'll call me 40. He calls me 10 times a week, but he'll call me 40 times a week about every company if I let him in. And I just know it's not worth the cause and get a headache.

Host: Maybe we'll take one more question.

Speaker D: Hi. Um, thanks, Ron. I didn't know you were the founder of hi, uh, Mama till I came here. So my name is Vasa. Uh, I am a growth strategy and m. And a professional. I'm also in, uh, a board of director in one of the daycare centers. And that's when I use this product. It's fantastic. Very cute product. I would say serves the purpose. Um, my question to you is, you know, hi Mama changed to Lelio, uh, a year ago. How did you go about that decision making internally and with your investors? And what do you do from a branding perspective when you have to make such kind of decisions?

Speaker E: Decisions.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, that's actually like, you know, one of my biggest regrets is not doing that earlier.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Because we, um. So, so the company when we, when we founded it, uh, it was called hi Mama. Um, and then as we grew, like, we started getting some, you know, valid feedback from, from dads, especially being like, what about, well, what about me? And we're like, yeah, fair enough.

Speaker D: Um,

Ron Spreeuwenberg: but it was always like, oh, it's so painful to do, like to change your brand and like, but then the longer you leave it, the more painful it gets. So like, in hindsight we should have done it sooner. Um, but eventually, like, honestly, eventually we just ripped the band aid off and did it because we had to.

Co-host: I'm gonna ask a follow up question here. What were the negative impacts in the short run about changing your brand, if any?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, I mean there was definitely like se. Like there's like a year SEO impact basically for your site to fully recover. And I've seen that in other businesses too.

Host: We're even seeing it with like our like name pronunciation too. Like, I mean it's not comparison. We did we now say tech too. It's just, yeah, change is always going to be um, um, like an adjustment period. Right.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: So, yeah, and, and, and like everybody, like, we did have really good brand recognition. And, and like, you know, you asked me a bit about the differences in like Canada and the U.S. like, you know, there's, there's people who like, take offense to the switch. Like, they're like, oh, we love hi Mama. Like, it's really like, uh, you know, a woke thing to, like, want to change the name. Like, there's, like, you know, schools in, like, Florida and whatever that are very different, you know, so, like, it's.

Host: You're not going to make everyone happy.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Exactly. That's a big learning, though.

Co-host: Did any of those people that get offended actually move get off you because of it?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: No.

Co-host: Okay. That's all that matters.

Host: It was not as large of an impact as that. Uh, okay, well. And Ron, just thank you for your authenticity and your story. I know there's lots of great takeaways for the founders in the room. Can I get a round of applause, please, for Ron? Thank you.

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Thanks, everyone.

Host: Uh, and all of these conversations from today, uh, we recorded them and they will be uploaded to our podcast series. So we'll make sure that, um, everyone that attended gets the link. They can check it out, listen back, and, um, if you want to get in touch with Iran at LinkedIn, is that. Is that a good way?

Ron Spreeuwenberg: Yeah, LinkedIn's cool. You can just, uh, look me up on there and connect.

Host: Yeah. And can you hang out for a little bit after all this is done,

Ron Spreeuwenberg: or do you got a few minutes? I have to get somewhere relatively soon,

Host: so if you have any questions, more for Ron, he'll just be at the back.