FLP 207. Modern Learning

Speaker A: Hello, thanks for listening to the Finance Leadership Podcast, the latest update and news about the Finance Leadership program. It's produced by AICPA and CIMA together as the association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find out more at aicpa, sema.com and enrol.uh cgma.org as usual, you're listening to myself, Kevin Gormley and today I'm joined by Richard Stanfield from Kaplan. Good morning Richard. Thanks for joining the podcast.

Speaker B: Good morning Kevin. Ah, no worries. Uh, thank you very much for having me on.

Speaker A: Today we're going to talk generally about modern learning. So what I mean by that is how people learn, their preferences, the technology they're using, things like, you know, good preparation for case study exams, how to study, talking about exam technique. So Richard, one of the first things we should do is introduce yourself and um, tell us a little about your career and obviously lead into why maybe you have got a lot of insight into some of those topics I've just mentioned.

Speaker B: Cool. I started work at a company called Procter and Gamble on a, like as a graduate and as part of the graduate scheme, um, I was lucky enough to get the opportunity to study towards the SEMA qualification. And back in those days there was only one route to the SEMA qualification. Um, now it would be referred to the self tailored uh, pathway. Um, but yeah, I studied SEMA many years ago now, um, enjoyed it, found it a really useful uh, qualification, um, really sort of like opened my eyes to certain things and one of the things that I discovered while I was working as a management accountant that uh, one of the things I really enjoyed doing was helping my colleagues. And as such I started becoming a trainer at ah, Procter and Gamble and so you know, helping to induct new employees in and stuff like that. And then when I completed my exams um, I took the opportunity to say thanks to the tutors at as it was then ftc and um, while I was thanking them like an opportunity sort of like arose where they mentioned there was a job vacancy and uh,

Speaker C: I

Speaker B: uh, was like oh yeah, that does sound really interesting. So uh, I then joined ftc, um, as a tutor in the Newcastle office and I have been working for Kaplan ever since, have focused on sort of management, accounting, business strategy and case study, uh, subjects over the years. Um, and I became a content specialist. So part of my role as well as still doing the teaching, I've always loved the teaching side of things and you know again that the helping people and the interaction with people, I was writing some of the Content, some of the case study material, but also uh, some of the management, accounting and business strategy sort of stuff. Then in more recent times I have become the curriculum manager for CMA's qualifications at CAP Plan. And that includes being heavily involved um, with our uh, collaboration on the FLP program. So, so yeah, so that's, that's where I am now. And obviously in terms of the curriculum side of things, you know, we're very interested in, you know, how people learn and you know, making sure that the curriculum and the way we do things is, is linked into those sorts of things.

Speaker A: So you've been around during a lot of change. Things like moving from Tapsina through to our objective test exams and the methodology around that obviously has changed from paper based exams which we all still probably have trauma about, to be quite honest.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so you've seen that, that transition from that to the OTs and then the changes in syllabus to modern, obviously a much more modern technology focused. So syllables.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. There's been huge change over the years. It still makes me smile sometimes that sort of old habits do die hard and that, you know, people still refer to some of the subjects as such and such a paper from the times when it was a paper based exam. But you know, um, that none of the uh, none of the associations use uh, paper based exams anymore. But yeah, huge change and invariably it's created opportunities and made things better.

Speaker A: Yeah, particularly for the student. Um, and also the flexibility that affords. And then the latest change has been the introduction of flp.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Three, four years ago into the market. So that's been a massive change for you as well as Kaplan itself and also for you as a teacher.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's uh, been really interesting to be involved um, with this. Um, again there's been lots of change over the years and it's really important to always embrace change and see the opportunities that it creates and things. Ah, we've loved working with you guys on the FLP program.

Speaker A: Okay, great. Thanks Richard. Um, so we talked about modern learning. So people coming through the qualification now, and maybe I'm making an assumption here, but the vast majority are probably in their mid to late 20s generally. Um, I mean it's a different generation. They do things differently, they learn differently and they were brought up on a diet of smartphones, let's be honest. Um, and other technological changes that has had huge impacts in how they learn and how they consume information, how they retain it. So from your perspective, what do they want? How do they study what works Best for them. Any advice you'd have around that would be great.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're absolutely right that things have changed a little bit. And you just need to think about how, um, entertainment has evolved in terms of that. People used to be happy to sit very passively and watch certain watch programs or whatever it may be. And that does still happen now. But also, um, with the advent of sort of smartphones, everything's just that little bit more interactive now and there's more distractions out there. And so, um, in the same way that entertainment has become more interactive, you can see that teaching styles and learning styles need that interaction a little bit more to maintain that attention and engagement in things.

Speaker A: Obviously with the introduction of flp, we had foresight that enabled us to release a product that sort of fits into this domain and to this time. People have often described the FLP as of its time, particularly some of employers. Obviously the product brings a lot of benefits and fits a lot of learning styles that uh, we see now. But how do you find students engaging? Is it, uh, do they embrace it or. There's still. Some people prefer the old styles of education.

Speaker B: There's always a mixture of engagement and sort of like embracing uh, these things that I remember when, I mean you talked about the objective tests coming in and uh, the ability to sit the exams anytime. And something we found at that point was that people very much still wanted some guidance about, well, what should I do and when should I do it? And so they kind of sought some structure, uh, from us. But then as people got more comfortable with the uh, sort of like on demand exams, you know, they then became more confident to do things under their own steam. And this is a similar thing with FLP that um, you know, some people very much embrace the uh, fact that it is on demand learning. It can be as bite size as you want it to be. That, you know, you could do five minutes or you could do a couple of hours, uh, in terms of the learning side of things. But yeah, some people definitely reach out to us and sort of say, what should I do? Or how should I go about it? But some people, as I say, just seize the moment and they just straight in there and they know what they want to do and when they want to do it. With the little bits of bite size learning and interactive content, um, uh, it's great. One of the things that some of my colleagues have talked about in terms of like the platforms that host uh, our learning, you know, I've referenced entertainment on this and um, they do look to things like Netflix and you know, iplayer and you know, these sorts of platforms. And one of the things that is fantastic about the FLP platform is that as with something like Netflix, that you can log into Netflix and you can be watching a program that you love within a couple of clicks. It's the same with the FLP platform that you can log onto the FLP platform and almost instantly you can be back on the page where you finished your learning previously. It gives you that option to dive straight back in without having to go through various different clicks to find the content that you want to study. This time that is a real benefit.

Speaker A: And gone are uh, the days for many of, you know, dog eared textbooks where you marked your last page with maybe some people used rulers or envelopes or. I think uh, the amount of objects that were found inside books were actually quite staggering to be honest. I remember the libraries in university, uh, when we used to use books, you would find the most unusual objects inside texts, many of which I will not mention. Or maybe I just went to the wrong university. I'm not quite sure.

Speaker B: I'm absolutely fascinated now Kevin, maybe this is another podcast that we could do, another conversation.

Speaker A: Yes, we'll take it off. Different audience. Yeah. So one of the things of the modern learner as well, uh, is this prevalence that we see for people using artificial intelligence. So like ChatGPT Copilot and using them to assist or complement study. And obviously with your vast experience, Richard, I think it's worth pointing out to people of how they should use these tools because they can be beneficial, but they're not always. Um, so a couple things. How to use these tools, when to use them and why not, and the risks of doing so, uh, which can affect how you study and how effective you are.

Speaker B: Again, it's one of those fascinating changes. And how is it best to use these new tools that are available to us and it's having an impact on all of us, not, not just education, but um, you know, the way that people are doing various different sides of things. Um, but you know, I definitely see AI as being a great tool for a learner. Uh, but it has to be used in the, in the correct way. It's almost like you're, it can be your personal assistant or your, your own personalized classroom m assistant. Um, but it's really, really important that we still engage with the content ourselves, you know, particularly, um, you know, if you're thinking about the exam side of things, you, you can't use AI in the exam, not yet. Anyway, I'm sure there's um, you know, potential down that route as well. But um, you know, you need to make sure that your, your brain is engaged in it and immersed in it. And um, I remember my, my children are at school at the moment and I remember um, my daughter was talking about using AI to help her with her maths. And I was, I was instantly a little bit suspicious around the fact that perhaps she couldn't do one of the questions. And she just asked um, one of the tools what the answer was. But I was really, really pleased that um, she'd asked the AI tool how to answer the question rather than what the answer was. And so she got back uh, a sort of like a methodology that. And there was an example given and then she could. Rather than having to wait for the teacher to come round, obviously they were doing something that was quite tricky and the teacher was ah, engaged with other learners, um, that um, they got a process and they were able to walk through that process and they then were doing the exercise themselves but they'd used it to help them. And I thought that was, I was really pleased and I thought that was really good way of doing things. The fear I think is that our brains are, you know, like any other tool muscle in our body, that if we don't use it then it starts to deteriorate. And we were chatting the other day, uh, Kevin, about, you know, you're, you're quite into your cycling. I do a little bit of running and you know, it's very easy that if you don't go out that suddenly, you know, the next time you do go out, you know, it's a bit of a difference and the brain's the same and so we've got to make sure that we're still challenging our brain and not just going, oh, here, do this, then you don't use it. And certainly one of my um, colleagues uses the term, um, that we've got to be very careful with AI because it can hallucinate, which I think is a fantastic phrase. And ultimately it's that whole AI can make mistakes too. It has its little moments. And I think that's really important that particularly again as you work towards the CGMA qualification, uh, something that's coming in in the syllabus updates next year is about the power skills and professional skepticism. And I think that that's uh, something that's important in terms of using AI, that we shouldn't just believe everything that we are told by an AI tool and that uh, sometimes we should seek to verify things or interrogate it about why something is the case.

Speaker A: Absolutely. A lot of the AI tools essentially just farm the Internet for information.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's like large language models that they learn from things that they have read and they potentially will be reading from sometimes inaccurate sources. When we use search engines, we don't just click on the first website that we see. Um, we look at the different websites and we potentially choose a website that we trust or something like that. And I think it's really good that the AI tools now do allow you to see the sources. And so you can kind of go, ah, all uh, right. So that's why know it's told me that or you know that there, there can be bias in some of the answers that come through.

Speaker A: I grew up being largely skeptical as a personality traitor. I probably bad thing a lot of the time, but I always challenge. Everyone asks me why I ask so many questions. It's because I've grown up with that skeptical mindset of would challenge things because I don't quite trust the source, particularly with the Internet. And I think that's still a very important thing to do, no matter if it makes you look like somebody who wears a tinfoil hat at home. Yeah, sometimes it's necessary because there's just too many things people believe too easily now.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's really good to have a little bit of skepticism. Where did that come from and why has it said that? Just another thing I think you saw when to use it, when not to use it, as I say. So you know, use it to ask it questions and to help sort of like stimulate uh, your curiosity. But yeah, as I say, don't ask it to do everything for you. And as I say, remember, you can't use it, you can't use it in exams, particularly thinking about, um, the FLP side of things that obviously it would be a complete no to use it for the topic level assessments. That would be the same as using an external source in an exam, wouldn't it? And so you can, you can ask it to uh, help you help explain something to you, or you could potentially ask it to question you on a topic. Yeah, but yeah, you need to be answering the questions yourself.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Over the time I've asked this to many people who taught the CGMA syllabus, but different insights, always important on your own experience. Um, bring that to bear also Richard, but I mean the types of tools or techniques you see students using, particularly at strategic level, which I know you teach, is there Anything that you want to highlight or maybe elaborate on.

Speaker B: I think that it's important to sort like establish routines and habit marketers try and create um, habit forming uh, things to you know, to encourage us to, to go to their website or go, go to their, you know, buy from them, use their tools and things like that. And I think that routine and habit are something that are really important in uh, in terms of study techniques, whatever it is that you're studying towards, whether it's the strategic case study exam, operational case study or you know, whatever it may be that you know, getting into good learning habits so little and often is uh, is often things uh, something that's uh, important. Again um, thinking about how my children do things that they're very uh, they're very keen to extend their streets. And so I think that it's important to let people know that you're studying towards something as well. You know that it's almost like making a commitment. If you tell someone I'm working on this at the moment and ah, it's okay to tell them what your aspirations are in terms of when you want to have something completed. I hope to complete the uh, the competencies by this stage and I hope to be uh, taking the case study exam at this point and so you know, will help them understand there might be times where they want you to do something and you've got to say well no, I'm going to be doing that this point. But also again thinking about the bite size sorts of things that little and often little bite size, uh, chunks of learning. You could do 20 minutes of work, look at a topic, do a few knowledge checks, something like that, and still meet up with your friend or go to the cinema or whatever it may be.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've heard this from students that have particularly transferred to FLP that maybe were on a different pathway before that. They have now built this into their working day. So they do as you say, little and often. They either start the day with 30 minutes, 10 hours learning or they do it at lunchtime or at the end of the working day. And it doesn't seem such a chore to them anymore. Whereas a lot of them would have crammed maybe all day Saturday and Sunday. And there was always these phrases we heard, well, I'm not giving up my life to get qualified over three or four years because of other things. Now it's much more manageable. It's not easier or it's just more as you say, bite size a bit as you go and just don't notice that time ticking away in the same way when you give up your weekends,

Speaker B: for example, you know, again those little bite sized things and being aware of people's time and attention and things, we factor that into our teaching uh, methods, uh, as well that you know we, we very much look to you know, try and make sure that there's, there's something happening whether it's uh, you know, using some engagement tools or asking just a general question to the class. And I do, I do think that uh, um, I appreciate that uh, the FLP platform is an incredibly flexible um, tool but I do think that um, particularly as you working towards things that the opportunity to attend live and interact with the tutors and ask questions, uh, is something that's another really important aspect of study. So every so often make a little commitment to do a bigger chunk and potentially attending some of the live sessions that are available with the premium program.

Speaker A: It's logical to say that totally Richard, but it also actually it's 100% correct because we see better results on that pathway in terms of exam results. So it does pay dividends to attend the live classes or at least if you're unable to do so, to watch them in the recorded uh, fashion because there is little things you pick up and you know with collective learning and the, the sharing of ideas and um, views which is obviously very important to the case study exams.

Speaker B: Yeah, totally. You know that again that collective learning side of things and that you know, being, being with a group of people that sometimes you think that it's just you that's struggling with something. But you know if you, if you're involved with a group then you find out that uh, you know, someone else asked the question that was on your mind and you're a bit like oh it's not just me and you know, it's okay to find that difficult and, and then the tutor themselves might go oh yeah, an area that people do fear and this is how you can manage that.

Speaker A: And yeah, so I've mentioned before that you teach the strategic level, that's your area of focus and we've had some fantastic results. Uh, particularly the last setting that we had back uh, which was mid May August exams. So we have some great results on,

Speaker B: on, on that level.

Speaker A: Management, um, also and operational has, has improved again exam technique, good preparation and all those things. You'll have your own views, tell me things that you've seen or experienced. You know, the good things to do, the bad things to do and the totally unthinkable things to do is that I could describe them just any insight you have.

Speaker B: So you know, obviously my area of sort of expertise is the strategic level. But it's true throughout the levels that one of the most important things to do with the case study exams is that the topic level assessments can show whether you understand um, the basics of a topic. But the case study exams are very much focused on trying to create real world situations. And so it's application to the scenario is absolutely vital. It's business acumen, you know, how would it work for this particular organization? And you know um, one of the things that I do talk to the strategic case study classes about is that um, yes, you know the underlying content is important. Um, but uh, you know sometimes it really is immersing yourself in the scenario and being aware of what's going on, what is the mission, vision, the values of the uh, organization in pre scene and make sure that you know those things drive the answers that you get. And if that's their priority, how will that influence the way that they are doing things? So yeah, so good things to do. Completely immerse yourself in the situation, relate your answer, think about how it specifically applies to that organization. And again it's across all the levels, something to watch out for is time management. Um, so all the levels there are a series of challenges. At uh, strategic it's generally um, one hour per task but at OCS and MCS it's 45 minutes. But usually it isn't just one thing that you're asked to do. And so it's really important to manage your time in those little pockets because if there's a couple of parts then there will be marks available for both parts and one part will be capped at a certain uh, point. So for example one part might be capped at 40% and if you spend 60 or 70% of your time on that then you potentially wasting some of your time. So uh, exam technique and time management is still incredibly important and making sure that you have a good go at all of the different things that you're being asked. Don't just stick to one just because it's something that you like. And then you said unthinkable. Um, I think unthinkable would be uh, particularly at strategic level to think that if you repeat textbook knowledge that you'll get to uh, the top kind of level. The knowledge helps to order your thoughts and to help you to generate ideas. Say going back to that first point, it's got to be applied to the scenario.

Speaker A: Yeah, the old classic don't write everything you know about a subject but make it relevant to the situation.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's amazing how many times I've heard people talk about that and, um, how many scripts we still see that people

Speaker B: think that that's sufficient and, and that sometimes you don't realize that you're doing it. And so one of the things that's so important to do is that when you've got the opportunity to have a go at a mock and submit it for marking, take that opportunity. Because some people have kind of gone, oh, I've heard you, and I've seen that, and I've heard you say that. But it wasn't until I submitted and got my feedback back and I looked at it and I read the feedback and I thought about. I was like, oh, I'd fallen into that trap of reverting to that underlying knowledge that I had rather than going, well, you know, this is what matters to this organization, and this is why it matters to this organization. So, yeah, so, uh, getting feedback and sometimes it feels a little bit uncomfortable, but, you know, we've got to put ourselves out there into uncomfortable situations sometime. Have a go, get some feedback, take it on board and, and improve. It's the way to go.

Speaker A: Great. Great. Thank you, Richard. That's, uh, very useful.

Speaker B: All right.

Speaker A: I think there's been some good insight there and some nuggets of information that our next cohort of exam sitters, which is early 2026 in February, can take on board. And for anyone taking an exam, um, listening. All the best of luck for February. Thank you very much for taking the time and joining us. There's plenty more to explore on this topic via the Show Notes. We'll have links to anything that's relevant. To view them, just click on the episode's info icon in the podcast app on your smartphone or tablet, or open the episode in your computer's web browser. For more information on FLP, go to enrol.uhctma.org or aacpa.com if you know a friend or colleague you could use this information. Feel free to share it with your networks. You'll see the sharing buttons on the podcast app. That's it for now. We'll have an hour episode soon. Thank you and goodbye.

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