Fireside with Founders & Leaders · 2026-06-24 · 1h 1m
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
39 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
David Burns discusses how his early foundation in game development and large-scale technology transformations - working on projects worth hundreds of millions to billions of dollars at CGI and Hewlett Packard - shaped his approach to operational excellence and process discipline. He emphasizes that understanding what constitutes "good" requires clear communication, especially across cultures and geographies where he has spent extended periods (2-3 years) in Austria, Germany, Malaysia, and India. This deep cultural immersion, rather than superficial business trips, enabled him to recognize that effective leadership involves supporting employee welfare holistically, not just professional capability. Burns applies these lessons in private equity and VC contexts, where he identifies best practices in sales pipeline generation, back-office transformation, and product development. His core insight: establishing formulaic structure, clear accountability, aligned behaviors, and genuine employee support creates the foundation for organizational success and differentiates portfolio companies for PE investors.
Spend extended periods (2-3 years minimum) actually living and working in those cultures rather than brief business trips, which allows you to experience day-to-day challenges, understand local nuances, and build genuine relationships that inform leadership decisions.
Begin with a formulaic structure that makes everyone's roles, responsibilities, and accountabilities very clear, then layer on behavior alignment and support mechanisms - this foundation makes expectations transparent and enables respectful, high-performance work environments.
Communicate the full journey required to reach each definition of good - including steps, challenges, and trade-offs - then work with the CEO, COO, CFO, and investors to find a compromised position that balances aspirations with realistic resource allocation and efficiency.
Large-scale transformations teach best practices and process rigor that, when applied to smaller companies, become differentiators for PE investors; these practices improve sales pipeline generation, back-office operations, and product development consistently.
People in less-developed regions face significant bureaucratic hurdles for simple tasks, and employees often come from organizations without support mechanisms - showing genuine care for employee welfare and day-to-day living challenges creates dramatic mindset shifts in team performance.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
There are a handful of genuinely useful practitioner observations - pilot purgatory, the baseline requirement for proving AI ROI, the need for daily token usage monitoring - but they are buried under extended filler about cultural immersion in Austria, repeated exhortations about 'process and structure,' and generic leadership platitudes that consume the majority of the runtime.
some have gone into what I would refer as pilot purgatory right where they've got 300 pilots of whatever it is that's running in the background burning a huge amount of tokens
if you're gonna restructure your way of working you actually have to have a baseline cause otherwise you're investing in AI but you're if you don't if you don't know where you're at as a baseline how can you ever prove the value of the investment
The episode recycles the standard 2024 CTO conference playbook - tech must align to business outcomes, generative AI is tactical while agentic is strategic, cloud adoption analogy - with only occasional fresh framing such as 'pilot purgatory' or the observation that AI consumer familiarity reduces internal resistance to agentic pitches.
the generative stuff is very reactive very tactical it's not gonna really be the thing which moves the needle in your business the agentic stuff potentially is
we used to have cloud first now we've got AI first
David Burns is a legitimate practitioner who has run large-scale technology transformations at HP and CGI and is now CTO of a real PE-backed business implementing agentic AI; however, TLC Worldwide is a mid-market loyalty-marketing company and he has not built or exited anything of notable scale, placing him solidly in the competent-operator tier rather than the exceptional one.
I've got that kind of grounding in real good solid processes and ways of working
a lot of recruitments of Ctos and also chief product officers and various other uh key staff is done post a deal yep because sometimes there is a need for a step change sometimes the CTO that got you to here is not the CTO which is gonna get you to there
The episode name-drops Anthropic, OpenAI, Langchain, MCP, and RAG and references a recommendation engine with roughly 90% accuracy, but almost no verified metrics, client names, dollar figures, or before/after comparisons are provided; most examples remain illustrative and vague.
around about 90% 8% accuracy
they're literally talking about a valuation which is just short of $1 trillion
The host occasionally lands a useful follow-up - pushing on the due-diligence versus post-deal distinction, asking whether a human could match AI prediction accuracy - but largely validates every claim, lets tangents about lederhosen and Austria run long, and never challenges a single assertion, resulting in a PR-adjacent chat rather than a probing interview.
that's so key that is so key
would you categorize those things under due diligence or would you separate those two things
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode of "Fireside with Founders & Leaders," host Rupert McSheehy sits down with David Burns, the CTO of TLC Worldwide. David shares his extensive journey through the technology landscape, from his early days as a developer on PlayStation games to advising private equity and venture capital firms on transformative technology strategies. With a rich background spanning Europe, the US, and Asia, David provides valuable insights into the challenges and nuances of leading tech transformations across diverse cultures. The conversation delves deep into key aspects of leadership in tech, particularly how effective communication and understanding of cultural differences shape successful organizational dynamics. David emphasizes the importance of aligning technology with business objectives and how a well-structured approach can elevate organizational performance. They also explore the current landscape of AI, discussing its potential to drive innovation and the importance of having a strategic roadmap to integrate AI technologies effectively into business processes.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
1 - > you're listening to the Far Side 2 - > with founders and Leaders Podcast 3 - > the podcast that gives you a behind the scenes 4 - > look of some of the world's most 5 - > amazing founders and leaders 6 - > looking at their journeys 7 - > and how they got to where they are today 8 - > David welcome to the podcast 9 - > thank you very much Rupert 10 - > so for people that don't know 11 - > give us a bit more in terms of your broader background 12 - > and a bit more about the business today 13 - > and what you guys do over at um 14 - > at TLC I don't know 15 - > well I'm just in from myself 16 - > from my own experience so I've 17 - > one of those kind of very fortuitous 18 - > career paths over the years 19 - > I actually started off as a developer many 20 - > many years ago on the initial PlayStation games 21 - > and I was doing that also whilst in university as well 22 - > and that was a real kind of hot bed of activity 23 - > and you were it was very much a focus on delivery 24 - > and getting things over the line 25 - > and you get a real insight as to how teams work 26 - > and how you need to collaborate 27 - > to be able to generate success 28 - > particularly in those types of environments later um 29 - > as I moved on in my career 30 - > I went into the more broader 31 - > technology transformations 32 - > and worked for some very large organizations 33 - > including the likes of CGI 34 - > and also Hula Packard as well 35 - > and we were dealing with global 36 - > technology transformations 37 - > these were transformations which are 38 - > in some cases 39 - > were in the hundreds of millions of dollars 40 - > if not the kind of billion dollar type of accounts um 41 - > those huge 42 - > monolithic accounts don't tend to exist these days yeah 43 - > but certainly that was kind of the background 44 - > on which I was brought up on um 45 - > through the industry and what that really 46 - > embedded into me is 47 - > a real strong sense of good practice 48 - > of having a process and a way of working 49 - > and I think that's 50 - > that's really served me well throughout my career 51 - > because you're always 52 - > you always step forward from that foundation 53 - > and an actual fact I was watching a 54 - > a podcast a few weeks ago and it was Jeff Bezos 55 - > and Bezos was saying 56 - > one of the things he would always advise founders to do 57 - > is actually have that 58 - > that kind of bedding in an organization 59 - > where you learn best practice 60 - > really well yeah 61 - > because then you can step forward from there 62 - > understanding what good should look like 63 - > and that served me really well throughout my career 64 - > so as I've moved into the more private equity VC space 65 - > and work with companies who are 66 - > clearly of a much smaller scale than the likes of HP 67 - > and some of the others I've worked with 68 - > I've been able to 69 - > identify the best practices and the ways of working 70 - > and how we can generally improve the business 71 - > whether that be from a point of view of sales activity 72 - > and pipeline generation 73 - > whether that's back office transformation 74 - > or whether that's actually core product development 75 - > because I've got that kind of grounding in real good 76 - > solid processes and ways of working 77 - > and all that training which is associated with that 78 - > yup and that really helps me get some quite valuable 79 - > or bring forward some very valuable insight 80 - > which I think 81 - > sits well with private equity organizations as well 82 - > because they're always constantly looking for that 83 - > kind of expertise that insight 84 - > which is going to be the differentiator 85 - > for them and their businesses 86 - > and how do you um 87 - > I suppose sort of put the value on on good right 88 - > because it can be quite subjective 89 - > like good to one person is 90 - > very different to good to another person 91 - > so what does good look like 92 - > oh that you 93 - > and again you're absolutely right 94 - > everyone has their own perspective on that 95 - > and I think that's really 96 - > that's one of the tricks in this whole process 97 - > you have to understand 98 - > what everyone's definition of good 99 - > really is yeah 100 - > um 101 - > and whether or not we think there's a way to actually 102 - > get to that position 103 - > and what are the compromises as well 104 - > that you might need to take on that journey 105 - > so to speak but having that ability to communicate 106 - > having that ability to uh 107 - > kind of articulate the journey 108 - > and work with business people 109 - > who are not necessarily from a technical background 110 - > and don't 111 - > maybe understand the challenges of transformation 112 - > once you start to fill that in 113 - > the definition of good starts to become clear 114 - > not just for yourself mm hmm 115 - > but also maybe for the CEO of the business 116 - > maybe also for the COO or the CFO as well 117 - > and also for the investors yeah 118 - > because often where that 119 - > where you reach there is almost a compromised position 120 - > which is okay that's good 121 - > this may this view might be good 122 - > but to get to that 123 - > here's the steps that we've got to take at that point 124 - > the business might look at it again and say okay 125 - > maybe we can find a different way 126 - > a more of the kind of a way with less steps in this 127 - > or less challenge and 128 - > because you're always looking for the most efficient 129 - > the most productive 130 - > way to use the resources that you have at hand yeah 131 - > to gain the outcome that you need nice 132 - > and and in terms of we 133 - > we mentioned you've got experience working across 134 - > in different locations with companies across 135 - > across the world yeah 136 - > how do you think that shaped your leadership style 137 - > it makes you very attuned to the nuances of culture uh 138 - > and also the value of that 139 - > within various different work environments 140 - > as well and also 141 - > just more broadly that 142 - > I lived a long time in places like Austria and Germany 143 - > and and 144 - > you become more attuned to the language 145 - > barriers that exist yes 146 - > people all speak English um 147 - > and you know in some countries 148 - > some of the English is really excellent 149 - > but 150 - > there is nuances in the way that you use your language 151 - > and it it makes you understand that 152 - > you need to just step back 153 - > and make sure that communication is real clear 154 - > mm hmm and that then also drives again a 155 - > a kind of understanding of 156 - > having good documentation in place 157 - > having good control in place 158 - > making sure that everyone is crystal clear 159 - > on what is being asked to them 160 - > and what again 161 - > good looks like um 162 - > so that's that's 163 - > something which I've certainly learnt as I've worked 164 - > in places like Malaysia also in India as well um 165 - > and also not just kind of being there for a week 166 - > but actually being within those cultures 167 - > for elongated periods of time 168 - > sometimes a year two 169 - > 3 or 2 or three years 170 - > and that really serves you well because you can then uh 171 - > once you start to understand some of the challenges 172 - > of those cultures and those working environments 173 - > hmm it becomes easier for 174 - > to work with people in those areas as well yeah 175 - > I think that's so important because most 176 - > most leaders who work in international organizations 177 - > they tend to go on a business trip 178 - > and they'll go there for a week or two at a time 179 - > there's no way 180 - > you can get ingrained into the culture and 181 - > align yourself with okay 182 - > what are the challenges that these people are facing 183 - > comparatively to what we're facing 184 - > it's a completely different dynamic uh 185 - > being somewhere where you're staying in a hotel 186 - > and you're basically there for two weeks 187 - > is a completely different dynamic 188 - > to living and working in those environments 189 - > in those countries for two and three years 190 - > and you really 191 - > you really don't get a sense of the culture 192 - > if you're not there for a long period of time 193 - > because that's not that's not present 194 - > you know 195 - > the hotels that people stay in are very Westernized 196 - > yup and you're moving from a hotel to an office 197 - > which is also very Westernized in its structure 198 - > when you actually live in these locations 199 - > and you actually see what goes on day to day 200 - > and again the challenges that people have 201 - > that's when you start to understand the 202 - > the cultural nuances yeah 203 - > I particularly found this out um 204 - > it was quite interesting during my time in Austria 205 - > where um 206 - > where I it's one of those places that you can 207 - > you go skiing 208 - > go visit and it's beautiful and it's wonderful 209 - > love it um 210 - > but different when you're there yeah 211 - > yeah and not 212 - > not not that it's not good 213 - > but just different from maybe the kind of the 214 - > the Broken Mountains yeah 215 - > yeah so to speak 216 - > everyone's wearing their lederhosen with the yodel 217 - > and you also get you 218 - > you start to get an insight into the mindset 219 - > of the people who live in those countries 220 - > as well because 221 - > you know slightly different 222 - > we like to think that we all 223 - > and there are some common groundings 224 - > amongst people across the world always 225 - > but those cultural differences 226 - > are what makes it all unique 227 - > and really special as well 228 - > and it's embracing those 229 - > which is really key cause once you understand that 230 - > you can also then get the best out of the people 231 - > who are working with you as well yeah okay 232 - > and that's so key that is so key 233 - > what's the thing that surprised you the most about like 234 - > all your different sort of 235 - > your places that you've you've been in terms of the 236 - > that sort of cultural difference 237 - > and having to really understand it 238 - > where you went oh my God 239 - > I didn't expect that I think what I've seen is 240 - > some of the things that you take for granted 241 - > when you live in a country like the 242 - > the UK and you're brought up in the 243 - > in and in such a country 244 - > when you step out into certain countries 245 - > around the world 246 - > which are maybe less developed in certain areas um 247 - > you see the challenges of them 248 - > of people just getting things done 249 - > in those environments 250 - > uh so it becomes very bureaucratic in certain 251 - > in certain countries to just get rather 252 - > simple things done mm hmm 253 - > um now fortunately 254 - > I've always had 255 - > support mechanisms around me to help employees 256 - > kind of overcome some of those hurdles 257 - > but these might be in some cases some private things 258 - > yeah OK 259 - > that employees have some 260 - > just general day to day living challenges 261 - > uh and that's 262 - > that's where that's where getting involved 263 - > and really caring for the employees welfare 264 - > really helping and supporting people in the right way 265 - > and again that's what really makes the difference get 266 - > that's that's where 267 - > where 268 - > you start to see the change in the mindset of the team 269 - > that you're there to actually really support them 270 - > and help them 271 - > not just from a point of view of their professional 272 - > capability 273 - > but also as well you're looking out for their welfare 274 - > you're looking out for their lives more broadly 275 - > and how you can make sure that the 276 - > the work life balance 277 - > and how work operates around their lives as well 278 - > is structured in the right way 279 - > unfortunately 280 - > it is sometimes the case that when you go into uh 281 - > when I've gone into certain countries in the past 282 - > some of the employees have come through from 283 - > other organizations 284 - > who have not really tried to build that type 285 - > type of support capability 286 - > mm hmm in place 287 - > so when they always 288 - > when I've brought people into work for me 289 - > they often have seen that step change of 290 - > you know 291 - > I'm genuinely interested in the people who work with me 292 - > and work as part of the team 293 - > yeah because I'm 294 - > I really want to see people succeed and drive 295 - > their career forward that's really 296 - > you know that 297 - > that 298 - > for me is the thing which really drives me in terms of 299 - > yeah people's performance 300 - > yeah nice 301 - > and it might sound like a silly question because it 302 - > again may seem simple to you 303 - > but to other people out there 304 - > because as you mentioned there's lots of businesses 305 - > that don't have these mechanisms in place 306 - > and I can't believe 307 - > it's because they're all narcissists 308 - > and they don't want to help people right they 309 - > they just don't know how to do it or there's blockers 310 - > like how do you put these processes in place 311 - > is it just putting in like SOS structure 312 - > the beginning of this is having a 313 - > a form a very formulaic structure 314 - > yeah yeah 315 - > so that everyone knows where they stand 316 - > everyone knows what they're doing um 317 - > and everyone knows their responsibilities 318 - > and their accountabilities 319 - > that's the starting point 320 - > because that makes it very clear 321 - > to everyone about what what the expectations are 322 - > and how to work with colleagues 323 - > and so on and so forth 324 - > and then you can start to also as well um 325 - > align behaviours as well 326 - > and make sure that we were all working in the right way 327 - > in a very respectful way which really kind of heightens 328 - > or gets the best behavior out of people yep 329 - > uh so the yeah 330 - > the again the 331 - > the this always challenges throughout that because 332 - > and it's 333 - > it's never one unique way of addressing the problem 334 - > but getting that kind of structure in place 335 - > from the very outset really helps people 336 - > and again going back to the early stages in my career 337 - > the need for good process 338 - > there really helps people as well 339 - > yeah because again 340 - > people sometimes have come from organizations 341 - > where there is less focus on structure and process 342 - > and that doesn't really give people 343 - > always the foundation that is needed to be successful 344 - > yeah so putting that in place often really 345 - > and I've seen it myself 346 - > I've seen people who come in and they start off 347 - > and they're kind of you know 348 - > they're not a great performer 349 - > they're fairly solid 350 - > but you put that structure in place 351 - > you put that foundation in place 352 - > you invest in them and you work with them 353 - > and you be honest 354 - > and truthful and transparent with them 355 - > you can change people into real star performers 356 - > yep really get the best from them 357 - > and that's a reciprocal thing as well 358 - > because then they see the growth and the capability 359 - > yep that and what they could do 360 - > and that sometimes is eye opening for the individuals 361 - > as well which is a fascinating journey to be on 362 - > with those people it's great 363 - > isn't it yeah 364 - > to see how people develop is really insightful 365 - > it tends to be the enjoyable part of the job 366 - > once you get into leadership for 367 - > for most not some 368 - > but for most is seeing people develop and come 369 - > through and being able to help them to 370 - > to sometimes even light a bit of a fire to go right 371 - > this is exciting it is and 372 - > and you can you can see as you say the 373 - > the the 374 - > the the fire is kind of on the 375 - > the shine in their eyes so to speak 376 - > yep um 377 - > because they're doing the thing that they love 378 - > hmm 379 - > and this is also another thing which I think I've uh 380 - > Learned throughout my career 381 - > is give people the opportunity 382 - > to do the thing that they love 383 - > really and to that extent 384 - > give them the right support and guidance and to 385 - > to a degree get out of their way 386 - > mm hmm as well yeah 387 - > because if people love what they're doing 388 - > they will invest the time 389 - > they will kind of coach themselves as well they 390 - > they you know 391 - > they will do a lot of that themselves 392 - > yep um 393 - > and they will go out and try to learn more 394 - > around the subject 395 - > and I see that a lot with the team which I've got now 396 - > and teams which I've had previously as well 397 - > nice and and you've done 398 - > you know lots of advisory workers you said for P firms 399 - > vcs on strategy yes 400 - > solving some of their problems 401 - > like what are the typical 402 - > things that they're asking you to solve 403 - > like what are the 404 - > the problems that they're tending to have 405 - > from a tech perspective I mean 406 - > to it general themes which come across 407 - > because every every business is different 408 - > and every private equity has somewhat different focus 409 - > but generally it is 410 - > it is a real need for clarity around vision 411 - > strategy and the 412 - > the plan that we're gonna execute which supports that 413 - > and ultimately 414 - > the organization that you need to achieve those 415 - > that vision and strategy and that sounds kind of very 416 - > kind of like obvious to say 417 - > but it's when you start to get into the detail of that 418 - > having a strategy that you know 419 - > is actually gonna work and actually deliver and the 420 - > the plan which supports that 421 - > mm hmm 422 - > that is not as as easy to execute through yep uh 423 - > so it's that so generally what 424 - > what I see when I'm speaking with peas 425 - > is that need for clarity around that okay 426 - > so that they know okay what's coming when it's coming 427 - > how does that address on 428 - > how does that help enterprise value 429 - > how does that grow the value of the business 430 - > mm hmm how does that grows from a revenue perspective 431 - > how does that grows from an EBITDA perspective 432 - > um and how does that 433 - > maybe differentiate us away from others in the market 434 - > gives us something unique cause again 435 - > all these things contribute to enterprise value 436 - > which is really helpful for ultimately 437 - > an exit for a PA 438 - > and but having that 439 - > that plan and aligning that to the strategy 440 - > and the broader strategy of the business as well yeah 441 - > and being able to articulate that on terms 442 - > which everyone understands 443 - > gets and sees clearly where the value is being created 444 - > that is is generally the 445 - > the the points which come across yep 446 - > um of course as you go through that journey 447 - > certain things change 448 - > people get more into a little bit more into the detail 449 - > yeah um 450 - > but you have to build that solid foundation 451 - > of a clear picture 452 - > and a clear way forward from the outset 453 - > and 454 - > would you categorize those things under due diligence 455 - > or would you separate those two things 456 - > so some of it so at 457 - > at diligence you can kind of get a view of that 458 - > mm hmm but a lot of this comes post the 459 - > the deal okay 460 - > okay so this is post deal 461 - > so rather than yeah 462 - > okay post deal 463 - > and you will see and you will be familiar with this 464 - > a lot of recruitments of Ctos 465 - > and also chief product officers and various other uh 466 - > key staff is done post a deal 467 - > yep because sometimes there is a need for a step change 468 - > sometimes the CTO that got you to here is not the CTO 469 - > which is gonna get you to there fact 470 - > very often that's the case yeah 471 - > we know this right 472 - > so we know this cause a CTO is not a CTO 473 - > so to speak there's different flavours 474 - > yeah there is 475 - > and they don't want to do that next job 476 - > they often go this isn't for me yeah 477 - > there there are those 478 - > you know the 479 - > the the typical founder CEOs 480 - > more of of more of that engineering background 481 - > hmm as where the 482 - > the PE CEOs the more 483 - > the more kind of main stage 484 - > uh PE CEOs 485 - > or 486 - > people who've been through that transformation journey 487 - > yeah and have the ability and 488 - > and can intuitively talk about value 489 - > that they're generating and not technology 490 - > that they're kind of bringing into the business 491 - > because at the end of the day 492 - > the technology is always a means to an end yeah 493 - > should be and that's 494 - > I think always the 495 - > one of the challenges which I've always seen 496 - > is making sure that if we're gonna do anything 497 - > from a technology point of view 498 - > if the technology strategy is gonna drive an outcome 499 - > that has to be aligned to the business metrics 500 - > to the to the 501 - > the value of the business 502 - > to the revenue to the EBITDA that we're gonna drive 503 - > do you think that's an area that 504 - > sometimes you've seen people get wrong 505 - > I've frequently seen unfortunately 506 - > situations where it becomes a 507 - > far too technical conversation 508 - > or the clarity is not there okay 509 - > the and this is where 510 - > you know this this 511 - > this is where the experience comes into play 512 - > you've got to be able to articulate this in terms 513 - > which everyone can follow 514 - > in terms which everyone can kind of get 515 - > because everyone these days 516 - > particularly exact teams have a limited um 517 - > ability to actually absorb huge amounts of information 518 - > they're dealing with so many things yeah 519 - > the world moves so fast 520 - > they what you need 521 - > to do is the CTO 522 - > is increasingly take very complex challenges 523 - > and crystallize them into 524 - > this is what that means and ultimately 525 - > that's the outcome that we reach for the business yeah 526 - > if you can do that 527 - > then you'll find a far easier conversation 528 - > always with other exes with peers 529 - > but certainly with investors as well yeah 530 - > it's about those business outcomes 531 - > as you say it's taking it away from everything else is 532 - > is ultimately to those people as investors and exes is 533 - > is noise I don't really care 534 - > they wanna know 535 - > what's the return on the investment that I'm making 536 - > yeah and and you do uh 537 - > from time to time you come across uh 538 - > various different investors who are very technically 539 - > savvy and they really want to understand the 540 - > the the challenges and again 541 - > the 542 - > a good thing with my experience is I'm able to kind of 543 - > if you wanna go into the the the detail 544 - > we'll go into the detail yeah 545 - > um but generally the conversation is 546 - > is much more about what we're trying to achieve 547 - > by when that's gonna be achieved 548 - > and what the best benefits are for the business 549 - > the important thing is alignment yeah OK 550 - > everyone has to believe that 551 - > everyone has to be assured that that's the right thing 552 - > and I spend a lot of time 553 - > making sure that we're constantly keeping alignment 554 - > on a day to day basis 555 - > because it's easy to get for misunderstandings to 556 - > to arise it's easy for for transformation 557 - > activities to start to not deliver in the right way 558 - > yeah so keeping that alignment um 559 - > with your peers is so critical these days 560 - > because at the end of the day 561 - > it's a team effort and it's the team 562 - > which achieves the outcome with the business uh 563 - > and that that's one of the things which I think 564 - > I think it's the biggest transformation for Ctos 565 - > yep over the last few years 566 - > and particularly over the last 20 years 567 - > I've seen a lot of CTOs were the technical gurus 568 - > but they almost sat separate outside of the business 569 - > yep 570 - > now CTOs are an integral part of the team 571 - > they have to be 572 - > and the technology is an integral part of the business 573 - > yeah I 574 - > during previous years gone by 575 - > I used to rail against this concept of the business 576 - > and tech yep 577 - > the business is tech tech is part of the business 578 - > yep it's all one and the same thing 579 - > and they used to often you'd hear this in conversation 580 - > which was the kind of like 581 - > the tech team 582 - > perceived as some sort of addition or some 583 - > they just siloed by themselves 584 - > renegades doing what they want 585 - > exactly yeah 586 - > some strange organization which is not 587 - > we don't talk to them yeah 588 - > yeah don't and 589 - > and there wasn't that line 590 - > so I always pushed back against that and yeah 591 - > I always worked with CEOs and with investors to say 592 - > we're core we're absolutely core to the 593 - > and let's not talk in those terms 594 - > hmm because by talking in those terms 595 - > it's 596 - > almost becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy 597 - > if you talk like that 598 - > then you're instantly gonna start to behave like that 599 - > yep and it's also not good for the technology 600 - > and the product people on the ground as well 601 - > they need to know that what they're doing is core 602 - > and really drives the value 603 - > and that comes back to you know 604 - > people at an individual level 605 - > want to know that 606 - > the things that they're doing as part of a business 607 - > really have an impact yeah 608 - > and have you seen um 609 - > investment firms and companies 610 - > miss out on technology opportunities 611 - > because they've not been so aligned with the tech 612 - > and the the business 613 - > they're not as one yeah 614 - > absolutely um 615 - > and unfortunately I've seen it um quite often yeah 616 - > where there isn't an alignment around the 617 - > the kind of business strategy and the technology 618 - > and often they're 619 - > the points that 620 - > someone like me is often brought into the whole 621 - > conversation but I've frequently 622 - > frequently seen it where 623 - > the reason that alignment 624 - > or the business has this mindset of 625 - > tech is something else hmm 626 - > and date and to an extent 627 - > and to an extent 628 - > that's also happened with data and data science 629 - > because a very complex 630 - > very difficult challenging subject okay 631 - > let's keep it at an arms length right 632 - > not really engage it 633 - > or we need that in far more simplistic terms 634 - > and I particularly through 635 - > I think there was a period between 636 - > I would say 2,010 to 2000 637 - > well just pre covid 638 - > so that kind of decade 639 - > where I was consistently seeing that disconnect 640 - > between what tech organizations can achieve 641 - > within a broader business 642 - > um and also as well 643 - > what data organizations can achieve as an outcome 644 - > and businesses 645 - > weren't leveraging that in the right way 646 - > mm hmm uh 647 - > the businesses for me 648 - > who are really gonna be successful 649 - > who are 650 - > those who really integrate that 651 - > as part of the soul and core of what they're doing 652 - > yep if you get that right 653 - > then all of a sudden you have products and capabilities 654 - > which are differentiating 655 - > you have people who are far more actively engaged 656 - > and it becomes quite an exciting atmosphere 657 - > and that's you know 658 - > that's something which I've always pushed for 659 - > to achieve within the working environment 660 - > people then come along the journey with you 661 - > they're as you say 662 - > more engaged right 663 - > they want to do the work it's 664 - > it's a wonderful thing to see when you've got CFO's 665 - > CEO's 666 - > COO's actively engaged in the conversations around data 667 - > yeah and it's 668 - > it's actually and I'm not 669 - > I'm not saying that the the 670 - > it's always completely aligned right right 671 - > at least they're talking about it though 672 - > but the fact is that they're talking yeah 673 - > yeah and that's 674 - > that's an exciting thing because then 675 - > you start to talk about the art of the possible 676 - > and where you can take this 677 - > and what new things can be achieved 678 - > and that's really you know 679 - > that for me 680 - > that's the bit which always gets me out of bed 681 - > so to speak yeah 682 - > um is that level of excitement 683 - > is that level of enthusiasm of 684 - > what can we achieve today 685 - > yeah 686 - > it takes it beyond the the baseline 687 - > right that everyone's doing 688 - > it's great when you get when you're not 689 - > and I think that's one of the things which 690 - > which I I personally Mark myself um 691 - > in terms of my own measurements of success 692 - > if I get a business 693 - > everyone in the business talking in those terms 694 - > I know I'm doing a good job 695 - > yeah at that point 696 - > yeah because they must have 697 - > at some point listened to what I was saying 698 - > ha ha ha um 699 - > and the fact that they're kind of 700 - > relaying things in that way 701 - > and understanding not just that this is kind of 702 - > magic and smoke and mirrors 703 - > and we can all achieve everything 704 - > but understanding the practicalities 705 - > and the steps that we need to take yeah 706 - > if businesses are talking in those terms 707 - > then certainly I've had some success as a CEO 708 - > yeah good 709 - > and we talked a bit about AI 710 - > and we can not talk about AI 711 - > I'm sorry I have to bring it up again um 712 - > but when we previously spoke 713 - > you mentioned 714 - > you've sort of moved beyond not just building like 715 - > predictive models you're looking at like 716 - > true agentic AI systems 717 - > and some of the work that you're doing 718 - > yeah um'cause there's a lot 719 - > there's a lot of noise around AI right 720 - > everyone's doing something with AI again 721 - > we spoke about 722 - > I've been to some events recently and there 723 - > everyone's talking about AI 724 - > which is great I'm very happy to talk about it yeah 725 - > now now 726 - > 95% of any conference that you go to 727 - > at this moment in time is AI 728 - > and then there's usually a stall somewhere 729 - > so where someone's not talking about AI yeah 730 - > no one's standing there 731 - > no one is so everyone's talking about it right 732 - > so it it is and unfortunately we 733 - > we do as an industry 734 - > we do have this if we do we do it to ourselves um 735 - > we are constantly 736 - > always kind of bringing forward the next great thing 737 - > and so on so yeah 738 - > and you could 739 - > if you looked over the technology industry 740 - > over the last 30 years 741 - > you could be critical and say every five 742 - > every seven years we're always doing this right 743 - > it's something new there's something yeah 744 - > something game changing something evolutionary um 745 - > but in actual fact this I think is 746 - > is different yeah 747 - > and it's different because there is firstly 748 - > and let's not talk about the levels of investment 749 - > which you've gone into it 750 - > but the the volume of incredibly bright people 751 - > and the structure and the organisations 752 - > which should be put around 753 - > trying to get more value out of this techno 754 - > technological capability is really 755 - > really uh 756 - > that's really exciting mmm hmm 757 - > cause if you start to have organizations like anthropic 758 - > like uh 759 - > open AI with the resources that they've got 760 - > and again I don't just mean the financial resources 761 - > but the people the knowledge 762 - > the insight 763 - > then you're inevitably gonna generate something 764 - > which is which is really quite game changing 765 - > I think the for businesses 766 - > and that that's kind of one end of the scale 767 - > because these 768 - > kind of trillion dollar valuation businesses 769 - > which I'm as I understand 770 - > that's where anthropic is gonna be when it uh 771 - > floats on the on the stock exchange on the um 772 - > it's mad in itself right 773 - > yeah exactly 774 - > you know they're literally talking about a valuation 775 - > which is just short of $1 trillion 776 - > so but that is one end of the scale 777 - > and the problem is that we can get 778 - > quickly absorbed into that type of bubble 779 - > the reality for most businesses who are kind of 3 780 - > 400 people on a certain level of revenue is 781 - > how do we get that into our business 782 - > how do we adopt that where do we utilize it 783 - > what does it mean for us yep 784 - > right and are you 785 - > when you actually start to have honest conversations 786 - > with many other CTOs and CIOs 787 - > which I've done 788 - > quite frequently over the last two years or so 789 - > in actual fact 790 - > they're all struggling with the same questions 791 - > yeah 792 - > some have gone into 793 - > what I would refer as pilot purgatory right 794 - > where they've got 300 pilots of whatever it is 795 - > that's running in the background 796 - > burning a huge amount of tokens 797 - > yep to um 798 - > but these are very disjointed activities 799 - > and they're not kind of looking at how you redesign 800 - > the ways of working they're just kind of very isolated 801 - > very uh reactive 802 - > yeah and very tactical actions 803 - > which in some ways 804 - > do inform a broader knowledge base of what can be done 805 - > but you've got to join the pitch together 806 - > mm hmm this is a transformation journey 807 - > yeah and it's something that we Learned particularly um 808 - > 18 months ago when we started to really introduce some 809 - > really good AI capabilities 810 - > into TLC we learn very quickly 811 - > that this was about transformation 812 - > this was about taking people on the journey 813 - > you can't redesign the way that people work 814 - > if you haven't included people in that conversation 815 - > yeah it's a fundamental part of it right 816 - > I I 817 - > you know at 818 - > at best you're gonna be disjointed 819 - > at worst you're gonna get a complete push back yeah 820 - > you need uh 821 - > people to be part of that conversation 822 - > and again it comes back to a little bit of having 823 - > process and structure in place 824 - > uh because your 825 - > if you're gonna restructure your way of working 826 - > you actually have to have a baseline 827 - > cause otherwise you're investing in AI 828 - > but you're if you don't 829 - > if you don't know where you're at as a baseline 830 - > how can you ever prove the value of the investment 831 - > yeah exactly 832 - > you'll never know you go 833 - > we're not sure if it worked 834 - > yeah exactly 835 - > maybe it did maybe it didn't 836 - > we think it's better you're yeah 837 - > it'll be 838 - > it becomes a very subjective judgement based call 839 - > which was we were there 840 - > we're now there and there is better we think yeah yeah 841 - > most people will say there is better 842 - > because they just will yeah 843 - > exactly they won't even say we think you're 844 - > you're never gonna say well 845 - > we spent six months to trying to do this 846 - > and a load of cash and actually millions of dollars 847 - > yeah we just kind of gone somewhere else yeah 848 - > it has to be you're always gonna stand by the notion 849 - > that it's better 850 - > so you have to then take a step back and say okay look 851 - > what's the transformation that we're on here 852 - > what's that 853 - > broader processes that we're trying to enable again 854 - > align what you're trying to achieve 855 - > to the objectives of the business 856 - > hmm you know 857 - > there's no point in going off and investing 858 - > not just again not just financially investing 859 - > but people's time and training and insights 860 - > into AI capabilities without 861 - > really understanding 862 - > where you're gonna take the business 863 - > with that yeah uh 864 - > and that has to be clear again 865 - > because I would never step into those journeys 866 - > unless my my peers are clear where we're going 867 - > cause you know they 868 - > I have an obligation to them 869 - > to make sure that what I'm suggesting is 870 - > what they're aligned with is yeah 871 - > and equally with our investors as well yeah 872 - > you know going off on random tangents with 873 - > just because AI is the kind of flavour of the month 874 - > it's not really good but the and again 875 - > it's not 876 - > it's the whole challenge with AI is not a kind of one 877 - > one size fits all type of thing cause of course 878 - > you got the and I again 879 - > everyone's initial focus was the generative stuff great 880 - > but the generative stuff is very reactive 881 - > very tactical it's not 882 - > gonna really be the thing which moves the needle 883 - > in your business the agentic stuff potentially is yup 884 - > uh because then you're joining 885 - > multiple activities together yep 886 - > there's pitfalls in the agentic approach as well 887 - > where you've got to really step back and think 888 - > about how you're implementing this 889 - > mm hmm you know 890 - > we were having a debate some time ago about this 891 - > and the structure of the agents 892 - > and what you want agents to do yeah 893 - > and do you want one monolithic agent 894 - > yeah or do you want to actually take kind of a 895 - > a microservices approach yeah 896 - > and have smaller agents with discreet function 897 - > yeah okay 898 - > and then join these things together well 899 - > again horses for courses 900 - > it depends right 901 - > yeah some people might say actually look 902 - > I know this and end to end 903 - > and I wanted to do all these steps equally 904 - > some other businesses might say 905 - > you know what I really want that flexibility 906 - > that actually these discreet agents give me 907 - > mm hmm so again 908 - > you need to look at that overall architecture 909 - > of your agentic AI 910 - > and what you're trying to achieve as a 911 - > business objectives 912 - > and make sure that all that's aligned 913 - > it's not and that's the bit where 914 - > CTOs need to step into that mindset 915 - > mm hmm and some are yeah 916 - > some are a little bit behind the curve on that yeah 917 - > um but you have to absorb this 918 - > you have to take it on board and you have to learn it 919 - > you have to understand the nuances of things like MCP 920 - > you have to understand Langchain 921 - > and these types of technologies these days yeah 922 - > because they are 923 - > in the same way that we used to talk client server 924 - > in many many years ago ha ha ha pre cloud doctor yeah 925 - > um 926 - > you have to have these frames 927 - > these terms of reference yeah 928 - > and you have to be able to understand 929 - > how you can leverage these 930 - > and what is appropriate and what is not yeah 931 - > that's the role of the CTO 932 - > it's just it's just a I was gonna say simple 933 - > that's the wrong word'cause nothing's simple 934 - > necessarily but it's a transformation in its 935 - > in its true core right 936 - > so we've had the age of digital transformation 937 - > which there are also plenty of organisations 938 - > still going through 939 - > a traditional digital transformation 940 - > by the way as you know um 941 - > but now it's looking at OK 942 - > well 943 - > digital transformation 2.
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