Why Your Next PM Job Depends More on Culture Than Compensation

Speaker A: All right, team, we are back in the Fireside PM podcast and I have a friend of mine, Albino Sanchez, on the show this, uh, this time. And uh, Albino and I met because we are both big supporters of uh, our local high school JV football team. And uh, Albino, you're very modest, but your son was an MVP on the, on the, the JV team and he's going to crush it in varsity next year. I'm sure of it. Um, but welcome to, to the pod. And, and how are you doing?

Speaker B: Great to be here, Tom. Thank you for inviting me and yes, it's great to be part of this, uh, cheering team, our sons and yeah, exciting, exciting times we're living and happy to chat with you and talk about what's happening in our business environment.

Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah, so when you and I were in the bleachers cheering on, uh, the Vikings, the Palo Alto Vikings, uh, JV team, uh, I had, I, I don't know, it had come up that you work on stuff that involves culture and that is a super interesting topic to me. I, uh, have a lot of kind of thoughts about it. Uh, but why don't you kind of start with an intro about yourself and then we'll get into what aha. Impact does.

Speaker B: Sure. Thank you. Well, uh, I was born and raised in Mexico City. I'm Mexican and I, uh, now I'm, I'm living. I moved four years ago to Palo Alto, California with my, with my family and regarding business, uh, and my, My career. I started, uh, in finance and then I started working for projects related to strategy, to company strategy. And then I became a, ah, strategy consultant. And so I did very interesting projects for large companies in Mexico where we helped them implement the different frameworks so they could measure, describe, measure and implement strategy like balance, scorecard, Balance Scorecard, okrs, and other frameworks. So I did that for several years. Then I became, uh, a strategy director, uh, at a large transportation company. And I realized that through all those years of consulting I was curious about what happened with those clients. So I was, I looked back and I saw that some still use those frameworks, others didn't. And I was trying. I was curious why this, um, these frameworks were really helpful for some companies and not for others. And what I noticed is that the main difference was the leader or the leadership style. So what I noticed is that those organizations that were really thriving with these frameworks and really growing, etcetera, they had a special type of leader. And that leader was usually, uh, people centered leader, uh, a Leader that was humble, that was servant leader, and that this leader cared about their people, listened to them, and really wanted collaboration. So, so I realized that what this leader was doing was really creating the atmosphere for people to thrive. And that atmosphere is called culture. Right. Uh, that's how we know organizational culture. And since I've worked with strategy, I realized that having the right culture is what's going to enable strategy execution. This is something that we have heard. We are not sure if it was Peter Drucker or someone else that said culture, uh, organizational culture, it's strategy for breakfast. And that's so true because we need to have the right environment so people can thrive and then implement and then be successful in business. And well, so that's a little bit about, of what I learned in, uh, those years. So I, then I, I was reflecting. How can I help, help organizations really shape, um, the right culture? And I realized that leadership is the key, is one of the key elements. Now how can I ask myself, how can I help leaders become better leaders? And I realized that one of the best tools is coaching, executive coaching. So I decided to become a coach. So I've been coaching for my fortune more than 15 years. And then I, I've been asking myself more questions. How, what else, what else can. Can we do? And then I realized that, um, you know, there are other things that we can do. How, how we bring people to the company, what, what type of people, how we describe the culture, and many other things. So I, I can talk a little bit more if you're interested. But, but culture is, um, a, it's a complex, uh, um, topic. And there are many ways to, to tackle this challenge. And that's something I, I decided to, to become. My, my mission. My mission is to help organizations, uh, achieve the right culture so they can thrive and their employees can thrive as well. Yeah.

Speaker A: Albino, you talked about some leaders, uh, succeeding more than others at implementing these strategic frameworks and, and getting good results from it. And I'm trying to reconcile that with the idea that many companies have different cultures and, uh, they can still be successful, you know, uh, even with variations in the culture. Um, when I hear you talk about it, it sounded like use. You might believe that there are some foundational things that are consistent across different companies. Or how do you, how do you think about like, variation in culture versus, like, you know, driving success? Do, do you think there's generally a, a set of principles or have you seen it done a lot of different ways?

Speaker B: Well, that's a good point. Um, an organization has several cultures. So we can have like uh, like an overarching or an umbrella culture that covers all the company. And those are like like big values, core values and uh, core behaviors that we can see throughout all the organization. But then if we start going deeper and we start seeing what's happening in each world, each department, in each uh, office, we, we nowadays we, we work a lot remotely and we have employees all over the world. So in each uh, location we may have different cultures because a different culture because you know just by being in a different country we we, we automatically have a different uh, ways of, of doing things, of different ways of communicating and all that affects the company culture. So y. In a uh, multicultural uh, environment. Right. And a global environment. And that's uh, an additional challenge nowadays in organizations because we need to be aware of that. Uh, and again what I found that is uh, the key element um, in shaping a culture is leadership. So we need as uh, organizations to be aware that our leaders are the ones that are shaping our culture. But uh, something important to take into consideration is that we need to be aware that we all have a culture or several cultures. But we need to define what's the culture we need to work towards. That's ah, an important element to take into consideration because um, if we want to continue growing we need to walk towards that ideal culture.

Speaker A: Let me give you an example that I'd love to get your thoughts on. Like uh, if you look at Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Meta, they all have pretty different cultures. Um, but they're all like really successful and impactful as companies. Yeah. Um, do you think that there are any common characteristics of winning cultures or do you see a lot of different paths to have maximum impact?

Speaker B: Well yes, I've seen several common characteristics that help organizations be successful. For example, innovation is one of them we need to have nowadays with so many changes with AI, technology, globalization, etc. Communications, we, we need to be innovative, we need to be uh, adaptive. Um, uh we need to embrace change as something that's part of our day to day. Uh so we need to be more adaptable, flexible. We need to embrace change and, and we need to be innovative. So in the past we, we could see like several archetypes of cultures. For example one archetype would be uh, a people center organization. Another one would be an um, innovative organization. Another one would be uh, a uh, process oriented and an um, efficiency oriented organization. Right. So those are just examples of um, clear orientation or clear culture. But now what we are seeing is that this successful Organization that you mentioned, they are, uh, innovative, they are adaptable, they are usually, you know, changing, constantly changing. So I think those are, uh, those are the traits or the characteristics that we can see in most of these, uh, successful organizations nowadays. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, let me uh, let's get into what Aha Impact does because how does your company work with companies or other, with clients around these, these challenges?

Speaker B: Sure. Well, um, Aha Impact is uh, a consulting, training and coaching firm. We're based in Palo Alto, California. And we help organizations, um, identify their current culture, identify their desired culture, and we walk with them from culture A to culture B. Okay, now how do we do that? Uh, we do that through different uh, steps and services that we provide. And let me give you a quick, uh, overview of those steps. So first of all, we need to describe the culture because we always talk about culture, but what is culture? What's our culture? So we need to describe it so everyone in the company can know exactly what's our culture. If you go to any company and ask different employees, hey, can you describe the culture of your company? You're going to get so many different answers. So that's one thing we need to solve first. Okay, let's get into an agreement. What's our desired culture? What's our current culture? So let's start with that so we can have a gap, A uh, clear gap that we need to close. Now once we have that, then we need to take a look into hiring, the hiring process, what type of people we are bringing into our company. So that's an important process we need to review and we need to bring in people that are aligned to the culture that we are working towards to. So hiring, then onboarding. It's very important to really help those people really adapt and really, um, really add value to our company and to our, and to the culture we are working towards to. And then we did, we develop leadership and we develop teams. So those, um, especially with those middle managers, we have um, seen that middle managers have a critical role in shaping the culture of a company. They are the ones that are, you know, they are receiving the orders or the, or the directives or the, of the strategy from the executives. But then they need to turn around and really coordinate efforts of their team, of the, of the employees. So they have a critical job there that they, and they receive so much pressure and they're so stressed out. And so we need to help them. We need to help them because they are the ones that really conduct those uh, strategies top down. And then, um, make sure that they implement um, and then they also need to uh, interact and negotiate with management as well. So that's a critical role. So what we do is we help those middle managers really develop their leadership skills, develop their managerial skills so we can strengthen their leadership as uh, a key uh, role in the organization. And then we also help with uh, change management. That's critical nowadays how to prepare for big transformations in the organization. And we work with people, we work with communication, internal communication and we prepare people for those changes. Uh, we also work with teams so they become high performing teams. And finally we also work with uh, strategy, we also review with the management team, uh what's the strategy, what's our focus? The important part of strategy is to really focus on a few things and say no to many other things so we can really uh, concentrate our efforts, our resources on those few things that will give us really the, the, the big growth that we're expecting. And, and also something that I, we're helping organizations is to really um, become an organization that really collaborates. Uh, and we have some frameworks for that where we are, we, we call it decentralization of management. So it's no long classical org chart that uh, it's a pyramid that, where everyone on top, at the top of the pyramid are the ones that give uh, all the orders and the people at the bottom are the ones that receive the orders. That's a command and control model. So we help organizations transition from that command and control model into a more uh, up to date model where we organize uh, through autonomous or independent uh small teams that act as mini business uh units. And now those uh, back office departments, um, they become enablers, they provide services so those small units can really um, be close to the market and really be innovative and really uh, implement all the strategy. So those are all the steps. Um, and the idea is to help organizations transition to that ideal culture.

Speaker A: That sounds like a lot of work.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. But you know, as many as any big project you need to stop, uh, you need to go step by step. But once you, you fix uh, the important things, which is how you hire, how you support uh, those middle managers and then you start really getting big shifts in your organization. That's, that's the idea.

Speaker A: Let's talk a little bit about the gap between uh, the stated culture and the actual culture. Uh, most companies have a value section on their website and they might even have posters inside the office about whatever, you know, collaboration and innovation and transparency. Um, and uh, but in reality like there's variations on how close they are to what their actual culture is like. Do you find that your clients are, are they usually surprised at the gaps or is maybe that's why they go to you when they know that there's like a big issue?

Speaker B: Well, that's a great question. I've seen uh, many different cases, different, different scenarios and that tells me a lot about, about the leadership. Um, so there are, there are leaders that they, they hire a uh, consultant, they, they go to the off site workshop and they define the mission, vision, values of the company and then they, they come back and they communicate those mission, vision and values to all the employees. Okay. So that's the traditional way of doing it, which is more like the command and control model I was telling you about. Okay, so that's one way of, to doing it, but it's more like a directive way of doing things. The other way is more, more collaborative is more working with the employees, asking questions, um, you know, measuring what's the, what's their sentiment, the pulse. So asking them frequently through surveys, through meetings, uh, how are you feeling here? Uh, what are your needs? So becoming servant leaders, becoming enablers. So that's as you can see, that's a completely different, different leadership style. So m. So in style A, they, they don't listen much. They, they think that okay, those that desire culture, that's the right one. And they, since they are communicating that that's the culture. We are, we are. They, they believe that they are already there and, but in reality everyone knows that they are not there yet. Okay, but it's like the elephant in the room, right? No one really talks about that gap. That happens a lot with those very uh, directive, autocratic uh, leaders that they don't really uh, are open to discussing, etc. So and in the other uh, scenario or the type B of companies, they, they are aware that there's a desired culture but they are not there yet. So they are going to build that culture with the employees. Okay. So uh, it's a collaborative work and so they start a big initiative where they listen to the employees, they work on training, on development, uh, they hire, you know, coaches, etc, so they can you know, bring you know, the level of uh, of leadership of their organization to what, what the uh, new culture needs. So, so yeah, that's what as I was telling you, I've seen different things and uh, but I think that it's very, very important to be really open to, to reality and to be honest and to be transparent. And uh, I think that's going to help you much, much more, uh, with, with your, with your management than trying to, you know, uh, just by saying this is the way it has to be. Just trying to, you know, simulate that things are already there. Yeah.

Speaker A: So, Albino, let me ask you this. Um, what would you say if a client, uh, heard this and said, well, number one, uh, there's a culture that I want for this company, and maybe the CEO says this, and I know that we're not there, but I, this is where I want us to go. This is what we need to do for us to be successful. So I don't want to have this listing tour with all the middle managers because they're gonna share the way it is or maybe the way it used to be. But I'm actually trying to lead us in a different direction. Um, how do you reconcile that argument with what you were, um, describing?

Speaker B: Here's what I was telling you about the change management, uh, framework. In this case, you have a challenge. You have, um, a clear, um, objective, which is, okay, we have a gap. We need to close that gap and we need to evolve our culture. Okay, that's perfect. Now we need what? Now they, they come to me, hey, how can I do it? Okay, how we're gonna do it is we're gonna prepare your, all your employees for this, for this, uh, journey. Okay, how are we gonna do it? So first of all, there's four steps that we're going to follow. And this is a framework called Do It Change. Um, this framework is about. The first one is Discover. It's doit. Those are the first letters, uh, of the framework. The first one is, uh, the D is Discover. We're gonna help our employees discover the need for, for this. Then why we need to evolve to that culture. Right. Uh, and how are we going to do that? We're going to do it through conversations. So it's not. No longer as I was telling you, hey, this is this. We're going to communicate what we're going to do, and we're expecting everyone to do it. No, we're going to get together and we're going to share the information that helped us with, realize the need of that change. And we're going to share that information with them so they can get to that conclusion in a similar way that we originally did. Okay, so, so that's the first step. Okay, then, then we need to observe once we, we had this, these conversations, uh, with them, we, uh, need to observe what's, what's their impression, what's where their position if they're uh, if they are you know, with, with us or we are, they are maybe fearful, hesitant. So now we need to get uh, and understand what's happening with them. So that's very, very important so that we ask questions and we let them express what's happening. Okay, so that's observe, that's the O. Then we go to the next step which is ideate. Okay. Once we have uh, asked them what's happening, we, we have addressed their fears, their concerns and now we are all in the same page. What's, what comes next is ideate. Ideate is we're gonna get together and we're going to start you know, bouncing ideas and trying to imagine uh, how are we going to get there to point B. Okay, how are you going to close that gap? But as I was telling you, we are not going to tell them. We're going to build that with them. So they are going to start you know, uh, giving us ideas and we're going to take those ideas into consideration and we are going to together uh, build this. So that's, that's really powerful. That's the way that they really uh, get committed and because they, they feel hurt and even if we don't use an employee's idea just by the fact that we listened, they're going to commit to the idea that we decide to follow that we all together decide. So that's idea. And the fourth and final step is transform. Transform is about okay, with the ideas that we selected, we are now going to implement those ideas and we're going to uh, distribute work, organize work and we're going to together really uh, make this happen. We're going to execute. So those are the steps that I usually use with my clients to help them uh, through transformation.

Speaker A: How do you see this differing if it's uh, a startup versus a mid sized company versus like a giant corporation?

Speaker B: M. Well these principles are uh, applied no matter the size of the company. Uh but you know it's easier at some point. When it's smaller, the company is smaller. Right. Because uh, they are more used to changes, uh to make changes to the way they work. They usually use several hats. Uh but when you go to a larger organization they are more specialized and they have processes and routines so they are a little more, less flexible. But uh, the key in both cases is that leadership, um, the CEO, the C suite, they are the ones that really are uh, in at the front of this change and they are really the sponsors. They're really the, the because they are the ones that can make this happen because they are, they are, they can move resources, they can reassign resources and uh, because if we, we try to do it from maybe from the middle to the top, maybe this is an initiative that comes from, I don't know, a middle manager. If the resistance comes from the top, that's almost impossible. But, but, but if it come, the initiative comes from top, bottom you can, if they are convinced that things need to change, things will change. So yeah, that's, that's, that's the idea to really uh, these transformations need to come from, from top management. Yeah.

Speaker A: You talked about the importance of hiring and how do you, how do you evaluate a job candidate if they are a fit for the culture that you're, you're striving for?

Speaker B: Well, we, we've been developing uh, a tool for that uh, because we found that that's one of the weakest links in the hiring process in many organizations. Uh, they, you know, companies are really good at uh, hiring for skills, for experience but when it comes to, to culture they, they usually come up with a list of questions and maybe the HR team is, is more you know, used to, to, to interviewing and they have uh, that sensitivity that they can, they have this gut feeling more uh, fine tuned. But, but in the end the hiring manager is the one that's going to decide most, most of the times and they, they are not experts at interviewing for culture fit. So they end up relying on their gut feeling and that gut feeling is full of bias because they, they like the candidate that is similar to them or they feel more comfortable with and that's not necessarily the one that's aligned to the culture. So to solve that problem, uh, we've been developing an AI tool for the last six months and this AI tool is going to help them. First of all we're going to describe the culture of the company because we're going to upload all the information that's relevant so AI can learn about the company. And we are, we're going to have different inputs. We are going to have uh, all the employees to interact with the tool with a chatbot. Um, so we're going to be gathering all the, what's their experience of working there? Uh, we can also analyze the internal communications. So there are many ways of gathering that information. And finally we have a report on the current culture and the uh, desired culture. So that's the first thing that this tool helps us do. And then uh, once the tool really understands the company we're going to also uh, input to the tool, upload to the tool the information about the candidate so we can upload, uh, the interviews, the transcripts, the resume, the maybe there's an assessment. And with that, the tool also has several frameworks embedded. Uh, and with those frameworks, the tool is going to organize the information, is going to present us a report, and finally, the hiring manager is going to prepare for that culture fit interview by interacting with the tool. Now imagine that the tool is going to recommend the hiring manager, hey, what to look for in this particular specific candidate. Uh, because the tool already knows a lot about the company and about the candidate and also knows about a lot about how to ask maybe, uh, behavioral questions, for example. Uh, so the tool can really see things that we humans cannot see. And by analyzing all those interviews, the tool can tell the hiring manager what to look for and what to ask for. So it's a very tailored experience for, for the hiring manager. And with this, the hiring manager is really empowered to, to really see what needs to be seen and not rely on gut feeling. Yeah.

Speaker A: So can the tool conduct the culture interview of the candidate?

Speaker B: It doesn't conduct it, but it, it's a big support for the person that's going to conduct it. So, uh, the tool helps the interviewer prepare for the interview.

Speaker A: Got it. Yeah. You know, it's super cool because, um, for many years when I was doing interviews at Google, sometimes I would get assigned the culture slot and I felt like, okay, well I've been at this company forever, so I kind of feel like I understand the culture. But at the same time I would often refer to like the official guide on like, okay, this is what we mean, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh, and I think your tool sounds intriguing because it sounds like it's looking across, uh, multiple data points, both from defining the culture, but also evaluating the candidate, like the transcripts, the resume, blah, blah, blah. And so I'm guessing it might have a higher accuracy rate on assessing culture fit than any one person that on the loop that was assigned this duty. Because like for an engineering interview or a product interview, like you, you know, if they can do the competency or not. But culture is like a delicate one. Like, how do you really ascertain it necessarily? Um, that's exciting. Yeah. So is it out there or is it still in development or.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, we, we recently finished the development and we, we have the first, uh, version, the first version of the software and we are, we've been talking to several organizations to uh, try this to as a beta, uh, testing and we already have a few that are interested and we're going to start with this testing in January. And so I'm looking for a few more. So few are more organizations that would like to test this and they're going to have the benefit of having a really low price and a, uh, discount for life because they are going to be the first ones. And this is going to be helpful so we can, uh, adjust whatever needs to be adjusted and then launch it to the market. Market. So that's the idea. That's where we are right now.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's super, that's super exciting because I think a lot of companies now, they don't have any problem getting hundreds or thousands of applicants, but picking the one to make the offer to, uh, is super crucial. Um, so, yeah, that'll be, that'll be exciting. How can people reach out to you and volunteer their company to participate? Uh, as a beta tester?

Speaker B: Sure. My website is ahaimpact.com and uh, they can also reach, reach out to me through LinkedIn. On LinkedIn, you can find me by Albino Sanchez. And, uh, and my email is albino. Albinohaimpact.com all right, I, uh, will share

Speaker A: my screen so people can see your cool website.

Speaker B: That's the one.

Speaker A: Yeah, this is the one. All right, last, um, question before, uh, we wrap up. What advice do you have for candidates who are evaluating different companies? And I mean, ideally the company would be using your tool and then they would only get an offer if there was a good match. But, you know, uh, not every company is using the tool. Uh, and often, like what the candidate can see on the HR website or the recruiting website, like, it all looks pretty similar. Like, oh, you know, agile, innovative, you know, integrity, customer driven, blah, blah, blah. Um, what advice do you have for candidates that are trying to assess a potential employer for Culture Fit?

Speaker B: Great, great question. So what I would like to recommend to those, uh, job candidates that are, you know, looking for their next job is regarding culture. Culture Fit. So first of all, it's important that they are as authentic as possible. So it's, it's better. Maybe they want to work for that company. But, but you know, what if there's not a good fit between your values, your, your way of working and the company's values and way of working, if there's not a good fit, you're not, you're gonna be, you're not gonna have a good time there. You're gonna be, you're, you're not gonna be there for, for too Long or probably you're gonna be really stressed out or uncomfortable. So it's very, very important that you, um, you are authentic your, yourself. Don't try to uh, make an act there that we, it's very common to do that, uh, just to cover the expectations of the potential, uh, employer. But you know what, try to get rid of that fear and try to be yourself and, and, and assess the company the way they are assessing you. So this is a two way assessment. So you are also interviewing them. Uh, you know, it's easy to say than to do it, but you know what, it's your life. You need to really look for a company where they respect you, where they uh, you know, the way they manage their people is a way that you are comfortable with. So ask the questions you need to ask. Hey, are you open to hybrid work? Hey, how do you uh, if, if my, if I get pregnant? What, how do you manage that? Whatever, I don't know, uh, whatever you, you need that's important for you in your work life. Ask for, ask for that in, in the. How do they do that? And also something that's very common in the interviews nowadays is, is the behavioral, behavioral questions. So they asked you, hey, tell me about a time where you had a conflict, uh, with a, with a boss or a colleague and how did you solve that? Okay, so maybe you can ask questions like that to the company. Yeah, hey, tell me about, about a time where you had a situation, this and that and how do you solve that situation, etc. So that's a good way so you can understand how they usually meet or their employees, how they make decisions, how they communicate, how they, the level of collaboration, the, the, the leadership style. You, you want to try, uh, test all those things. And especially what's really important is to get to, to talk to, to the hiring manager, with the higher manager. Okay. Usually if you get to the final stages, you get to talk. But uh, but if, if they are not planning on doing that, that's critical because people join organizations because of the company and they leave the organization most, uh, likely because of the boss. Okay. That's usually why people quit because of the boss. So you need to be comfortable with the boss, with the potential boss. Okay, so those will be my M recommendations.

Speaker A: I love it. Yeah. I often tell clients, uh, that I, I do some career coaching for M. Your objective is not necessarily to get as many offers as possible. Your objective is to get offers from the places where you're going to thrive.

Speaker B: That's correct.

Speaker A: And if you don't get an offer from a place where you wouldn't thrive. Like, that is a very good outcome.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, but it's, it's a little counterintuitive for folks because they're like, oh, there's a thousand applicants, like I need to get, you know, get the win. And it's like, well, yeah, it's competitive but um, you don't want to end up in a situation where you know, you're not going to bring the best version of yourself.

Speaker B: Totally, totally agree. And when they are searching for a job, it's not, it's not, you know, we usually uh, look for, for vacancies or we look for open positions in the market, in the job market and then apply. Right. But uh, what I would recommend is to really make a list of those companies that, that you, you have learned about a little bit about their culture. Maybe you have a friend that worked at ah, ah, at a company and they, and that friend told you that it was an amazing place to work. Huh. So that would be, and that amazing. That is when they describe it, it's something that you would like to, to, you would like to have. So make a list of those companies and, and ask people how about their, their companies they work for. And, and because you need to be intentional, you need to be really clear on what you want in your next, uh, job and not just, you know, go for the brand, not just go for the open position. No, look for the environment, the leadership and ask people that have worked there. Uh, or you can even, you know, uh, use LinkedIn and try to see uh, what people are working there and try to see connections. Look for introductions. But, but ask those questions. What is it like working there? Uh, and that's the most important part I think, uh, when looking for a job and then aim for those companies with that intention. Okay. That's a totally different approach than the traditional one.

Speaker A: Albino, A.H. sanchez, founder and CEO of AHA. Uh, impact. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. I think you've shared a lot of great advice both for company leaders and uh, professionals. And if anybody's watching this and you're interested in being a beta tester and using uh, Albino's tool to help you ensure that your next hire is as aligned with the culture that you want as possible. Uh, reach out to him and uh, hopefully he still has some spots available for uh, that opportunity. Well, thanks again, Albino. Appreciate you man.

Speaker B: Likewise Tom. Thank you for having me. Uh, it was a pleasure being here and I hope it's helpful for all your audience, uh, and happy to help, and so feel free to reach out. Thank you, Tom.

Speaker A: Yeah, you bet.