From Data to Dollars: AI, Stablecoins, & Banking Innovation

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of Fintech Corner. Here we are at afp. We're live, we're with Matt Kelly, uh, with Fintop. Fintop is one of our investors. Full disclosure, everything he says is benefiting them directly or not indirectly directly. Uh, so excited to have him on the pod. Lots of stuff that we're excited to dig into and talk about. Of course as an investor you see it all. Everything's kind of coming in front of your desk. So maybe first of all, maybe just kind of introduce yourself.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Maybe what kind of areas like you like to invest in a little bit maybe at Fintop and then we can start to get into that.

Speaker B: Thanks for Brett. Great uh, to be here. So Fintop is a venture capital firm, uh, investing in the fintech space. Uh, we are currently deploying about 500 million in capital across a couple of different strategies. And a big part of what we do is work um, in the treasury and kind of bank technology space. Uh, we have about 100 LPs uh, that are depositories, US community and regional banks. It's a big part of what we do. And so having a front row seat uh, to what's happening in innovation in commercial banking, treasury, commercial lending, that's a huge area of focus for us and we are looking for the technology solutions that will help banks compete in versus megabanks versus fintechs startups and everything in between. And so um, that's a big part of why we're here. Love supporting Truvada. Thrilled ah with your success and uh, yeah, glad to be here. So my background just real quickly. I uh, spent most of my career as a bank analyst and so I was not a technologist by trade, uh, but we had a front row seat to some big trends that were starting to happen uh, in the bank investment universe. And we were seeing that banks that were starting to lean in on technology and were starting to be rewarded in a different way, uh, they were more profitable, they were growing faster, uh, and the public markets were treating them differently, better valuations. And so we wanted to lean into that. That was a big part of what we were doing. Um, and so now we're very fortunate to work with a fantastic group of bank LPs uh, that we represent in some ways we represent a little bit of the outsourced R and D for the long tail of the industry. I mean if you walk over to J.P. morgan or TD bank or BMO, you they have huge kind of innovation technology corp dev teams. And so think about um, a mid sized bank don't have quite the same number of resources. And in some ways we act as a little bit of that outsourced R and D for them to have a, ah, little bit of a process of bringing them some of the feedback, what we're seeing of the most innovative technologies that banks should be aware of. So that's real quick, kind of who we are.

Speaker A: Nice. Yeah, well, I was getting a little distracted because, you know, you're investor. So we're trying to spend every dollar, maximize uh, our capital efficiency there. But I love the sporty vest you got the fence. So I might, uh, I was going to say, uh, you know, when it comes to like our operational spend and like, we got to get one of these, uh, good swag is a key

Speaker B: part of what the Fintop team believes in. And so, uh, Fintop, for those that are not aware, it just stands for financial technology operating partners. And so, um, the leaders of our firm, the founders of our firm, they built, scaled and exited companies, um, in the banking technology space, in the capital market space, in the wealth tech space. And so that is Fintop.

Speaker A: Nice. It's great. Well, and also like, so your background, like, you know, from the bank.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, you, you know, you know how, how things work from the inside. I think that's a lot of us who you're working with banks, and it just, you can get really frustrated. It's sometimes I, I tell people, yeah, I've, you know, spend the last years kind of, you know, beating my head against the concrete, working through the slowness of working with the bank. It's, it's part of the, part of the game. Yeah, you got to be able to have, you know, that kind of patience and tolerance and working through that. But you've been on the inside, you know, but have an appreciation though, because it's not like they're just twiddling their thumbs waiting and making you, you know, deal with that agony. There's actually a lot of legacy systems, mainframes. There's a lot of stuff that also doesn't allow them to pivot or move as fast.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, understanding, you know, um, the tech stack of all the banks that working with and then starting to just listen to them. And so it's a big part of what we do is just constantly being engaged with our bank partners and listening to what's happening with their clients asking for. And the area that Truvada operates in, kind of commercial treasury payments and integration into the tech stacks of banks customers, um, is a huge area of Focus and is changing rapidly. And so I kind of like to bifurcate it a little bit because we have portfolio companies that are kind of seeing us on both ends of the market. And so if you think of all the companies that are assembled here in Boston, uh, mega banks, tier one banks, really trying to serve, you know, enterprise type clients, Fortune 1000 clients, you know, you guys are serving that clientele as well. Um, and banks need to deliver regulated services into the software, into the tech stack of their clients. And this is happening up and down every part of the value chain, every part of the payments ecosystem, the lending ecosystem. And then you go to the other end of the market and think about small businesses and what's happening there. You know, QuickBooks and FreshBooks and Xero and all the industry vertical software platforms that clients are using. Banks need to have all of that covered, uh, in terms of how they are going to serve their clientele. And across that spectrum are a whole host of technology solutions that we're investing in. Uh, among those being Truvada that we're kind of thrilled to be working with. But that area is moving incredibly fast. And you know, one theme that I think is key to this, uh, thinking about open banking. And so open banking is this uh, contentious thing in consumer banking world, uh, but in corporate banking land and business banking, it's just what the market demands, right? So these large corporates that you serve, they want to share their data. And so there's a much different construct. And so, um, you know, open banking is a key theme that we're focused on. All the technologies that will enable banks to serve their customers through open banking kind of protocols and platforms. Big part of what we're doing.

Speaker A: So do you think of like all the pent up demand? In a lot of ways, if there's digital transformation, digital, that means data. If everything's kind of moving to data and then everything's sort of accelerating too. You got from APIs to the cloud, cloud native technologies, now we call them hyperscalers. There's even a lot of commoditization on the cloud and web services. All that's been happening in tech for the last 10, 12, 15 years now. And now like you say on the corporate side, they want their data to use. I think a lot of that is because they know that if it gets out of the hand, in the hands of some of these other players, they can innovate in ways that maybe the banks aren't. Do you feel like all that demand is just, is it moving? Is it so Heavy and moving so fast that in some ways it's just outpacing the bank and maybe the bank was never really its DNA to kind of develop all these new services, but now it's hitting and accelerating.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I think the most innovative institutions, uh, that we work with on the banking side of our ecosystem, RLP's, they have been trying to harness that data that lives all across the organization from payments and transaction data to underwriting data, uh, to consumer banking data to everything on debit cards, everything that happens in the branch. And aggregating that has been a massive project for the banks that is um, a top tier issue of where they're investing. And so um, that's been a huge area of focus. Most of the banks have kind of migrated, um, you know, their data to the cloud. But managing it, harnessing it, figuring out what to do with it and figuring out how to monetize that, that's the next step that a lot of our banks are really trying to get their arms around.

Speaker A: Do banks even realize like how valuable the data is?

Speaker B: It's incredible. Now the answer is I think they realize it, but it's a, it's a challenge, it's a massive technology challenge for most community to mid sized institutions, regional banks, uh, to harness that through all of those different silos and put it in a place that's usable. Um, and now you kind of layer on AI, right? And if you don't have that data organized ahead of time, you don't have the ability to, to kind of point and position AI tools and LLMs on top of it to keep pace. And so I would say it's this two step process of banks kind of. I know we're going to talk about AI, but the first is getting your data organized. Right. And that's a huge, huge project for most of the banks that we work with.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I maybe tell the story too. I love the, I mean um, I'm from a small town, uh, I've been in Stardust most of my career. So it's always like a David and Glass story. I mean you're always trying to, to build and I think this aspect of big bank, small bank, you know, how do you, you always look at, are the big banks just going to keep getting stronger, the smaller banks going to suffer? And I think there's been a little bit. But I love to tell the story of this, this network of smaller community banks that, I mean being this in some ways like this R and D bringing all this technology helping to kind of bring that to the banks. Yeah, I mean that's like, it's a great underdog story.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's fantastic. I mean as I mentioned, um, the banks that we work with, it's a real cross section of the US community banking landscape. It's about 100 institutions coast to coast. Uh, ranges from banks with assets of 3 or 400 million all the way up to 100 billion and beyond in total assets. Um, and you know, when you look at what these banks are building, um, bigger is not always better. I mean there's a lot of institutions that are leveraging their charter, um, in unique ways. Embedded banking, for example, you know, thinking about serving a new end customer set, thinking about delivering a lending product through a software channel instead of a traditional underwriting process. Thinking about uh, providing access to the Fed payments network and what kind of fintech needs access to that. Thinking about um, the advantages of a lending product that's originated on a bank charter. That's embedded banking. And we have a lot of banks that are kind of leaning in, uh, to that particular area and many of them are smaller institutions that are producing really outsized gains and profitability profiles. And so, um, look, the industry is consolidating at a rapid rate. Um, and what we're seeing is that there are absolutely some scale advantages at the high end of the market. And that's where you're seeing, you know, M and A being announced every Monday morning that is picking up. And uh, at the other end of the market we're seeing these innovative banks that are producing, uh, very healthy returns on capital. They are earning their independence.

Speaker A: So, and I think that's where this technology intersection is really interesting because is that like bigger is not. Like you say, bigger is not necessarily better. In some ways it could be a liability if you've got all this old technology that you're uh, you're comfortable with.

Speaker B: Tech debt is everywhere.

Speaker A: This light load that they might carry, like are they being able to adopt stuff and are you seeing that start to level the playing field a little bit and a little bit. Yeah. Ah, it hasn't quite hit but yet. Is that going to be the big equalizer?

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean the tech stacks that some of the more innovative banks are building on are more composable. Um, they are easier to kind of work with with other technology solutions. I think banks are trying to diversify away from some of the, the oligopoly players that have kind of had a stranglehold on, on some of the, the um, the institutions. And so banks are looking to work with, um, increasingly looking to work with just more innovative vendors and partners that help them move faster. And we're looking to invest in those companies. I mean that is the, the North Star of what we're trying to do is make sure that we are identifying those companies, um, that can be a part of a bank's tech stack, that can help them establish and launch new products and services, that can find new pockets of growth, serve new customers in new ways. Um, and that's a big part of what we're doing.

Speaker A: Are you seeing that also? Kind of, you know, on one hand it's like the banks investing, it's like you're. And they're hoping they're going to bring really cool, innovative things to them. It helps, you know, they might not be discerning on what. On the, on the flip side of course, and the investing side, like when you do that you're also seeing what resonates. Like how often do you see something really take hold or catch or like. I wouldn't even expect that. I wasn't expecting that. But that's like 10 times better than I thought it was. Right.

Speaker B: Stuff like that.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean um, we definitely want to kind of make sure that we're bringing together the portfolio companies we're investing in on behalf of these banks, bringing them together with the right people inside of these banks who are building products and services that are relevant to that Fintech, uh, at the end of the day, Travada and all of our portfolio companies, you guys win these deals on your own. I mean you have to go through these complex kind of vetting processes and RFPs and kind um, of vendor selection process. A little painful. Yeah, painful. It's much different. Is it heavy?

Speaker A: Yeah, is a heavy word.

Speaker B: That cycle of selling into a bank looks very different than the corporates, you know, that you kind of partner with. And so we're very mindful of that. But um, yeah, we're trying to get the flywheel going and make sure that the banks that have entrusted us with their capital, um, are aware of all these solutions that could be a good fit. And then each of those Portco's have to kind of go out and win it on their own and get, execute those deals.

Speaker A: And so let's talk maybe double click on, you know, what are the, what are the cool things? What are some of the, you know, latest. I'm sure you, you just. All these newer kinds of technologies you look at like you mentioned open banking, so APIs. But APIs have been around now for eight years we got to start kind of pioneering a lot of these, but now it's like, it's quickly moving. AI is just accelerating massively. So yeah, what do you like, what do you see and what's, what's really the hot, you know, cool things that you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean you mentioned, you know, AI and so we have a couple of portfolio companies that are helping banks on the AI journey. I'd say that one of the pathway that we're seeing here is that banks typically start out test driving these technologies inside, you know, kind of employee facing types of deployments of AI tools, um, knowledge and data, access of existing documents, policies, procedures. We uh, have companies that are helping there. Um, and I think the big opportunity in AI is going to be a cost savings opportunity. And that's what we're really excited about. I mean when you look at most community and regional banks, um, a big part of their expense base lives around the commercial lending ecosystem. Think about all the people, all the process, all the paper, um, and you know, there are agentic workflows, there are AI tools that are going to bring material cost savings to that, uh, automation, um, increase in throughput of collecting those documents and kind of getting things up to snuff for an underwriting, a renewal, uh, credit monitoring, like that's a big area that we're pretty excited about. I think we'll see some um, investments out of our, from our investment team kind of centered in that area in the coming months and uh, in the coming year and so, and that's going to bring substantial cost savings opportunities as I mentioned. I mean when you look at the typical US community regional bank, that represents a large slug of the operating expense base. And so that's where if they're innovating

Speaker A: there, I mean you could argue that they might have, if they're building like credit and risk models with AI doing stuff, you know, I mean they're punching well above their, their weight class. They're starting to do things that are more advanced than some of the largest banks. Right?

Speaker B: Absolutely. We're just discovering, you know, the more and more you talk to banks, the more you discover these little pockets of the bank where you have two or three people in the back office. That's all they do is review this one particular form and that can be automated. And so we're looking for the tech solutions that can go after those very specific areas and also kind of the broader kind of, um, you know, problems that the banks are facing.

Speaker A: So what? Yeah, so stable coins.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: How you know, what's, uh, how do you guys view that? I know that's. And it's also moving so fast. You look at the circle IPO that kind of, you know, hit the biggest ipo, I think, training gain in, you know, one day, then day one of when they went public in like 20, 25 years. A real catalyst. I think that a lot of people got excited about it. A lot of people though, maybe caught a little bit by surprise on how that market reaction went. It seems like it's only more and more headlines ever since. Yeah. So like, what's, uh, what's your view of that? How is that kind of impact, you know, maybe from an investor's lens and then also from a banking, you know, the bank community? Uh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, just from the banking perspective, starting there, I think this, um, caught a lot of the banking industry off guard and it moves so quickly, you know, through Congress on the Genius Act. And um, and behind that will be more clarity, um, and kind of what's happening in capital markets and other use cases of tokenized assets. And so, um, I think there's some risks, you know, to the banking sector, uh, to be perfectly frank. And so there's a lot of concern that there'll be some deposit flight. I think banks really need to kind of take a front row seat and understand, you know, what, what are the use cases, where is the utility, like where can they utilize either tokenized deposits or stablecoin, um, or some type of a digital representation of an asset that trades in some market to find a demonstrable cost savings or something faster or something that frees up capital. And so that's where I think is going to be um, some of the more, uh, interesting developments in the banking market in the coming months. You're seeing that already in effects and international money movement. I mean, think about remittance, think about countries that don't have developed banking markets. That's where you're seeing a lot of stable coins that are being held by consumers. Now you're in B2B payments. I think you're seeing, um, a lot

Speaker A: of concentration in US Treasuries.

Speaker B: A lot of concentration in US Treasuries. By design, right? That's by design with the Genius Act. And so, um, yeah, I mean it is the number one issue. We had our conference recently, uh, in Nashville where we bring together all of our banks, all of our portfolio companies and there was insatiable demand, uh, for banks just to understand what's happening.

Speaker A: This was a nice deposits, right, Like Five weeks ago.

Speaker B: I think it speaks to how much the industry off guard a little bit.

Speaker A: Here we are at the AFP conference, the annual treasury show and it's more bigger banks, you got, you know, folks selling into the ecosystem, uh, maybe the big regionals as well. Um, and I don't know, I don't, I haven't really heard much about anything about stablecoins here.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a little surprising. A little surprising.

Speaker A: Uh, so is this another also maybe a little bit about, you know, you got a lot of technology that is being fostered that can be picked up by the smaller banks again in a way that they can move a little bit faster with it, more nimbly with it. And then the bigger banks are just having a deal maybe a little bit in denial of kind of what that is, how fast it's moving.

Speaker B: Uh, I'll flip it back to you. I think with JP Morgan they had an announcement out a couple of weeks ago and what they're doing, I think it was FedEx was the client that they were talking about and how jpm, Coin and the Connexus kind of ecosystem that they have built, um, is going to help their large corporate banking customers. And you can start to think about, okay, you know, FedEx is moving um, from bank accounts in the US to South America, Asia, all around the globe. Probably have tens of thousands of bank accounts. Um, they probably want to move intra company, uh, on Sunday night and off hours between jurisdictions. Stablecoin could help that. Um, that could have real utility to someone, a large corporate like that. Yeah, you think about the uh, kind of the vendor ecosystem, um, and kind of the partners that they work with in the manufacturing kind of trade, finance workflow, um, if you can bring real cost savings and settlement that's faster and you're freeing liquidity. Those are the types of use cases I think we're going to see a lot more of, you know. But what's your view?

Speaker A: No, you're right. I think right away people talk about like cross border payments. Yeah. And I think people hear that it's obvious if you can kind of cut down or make that process because anybody who's dealing with that deals with it can be expensive. You get several days of delay in working through those and then it's just sometimes you're dealing with different banks. Uh, uh, is part of that. So it's not as transparent. So yeah, there are a lot of issues with that. But then just um, there still when you look at kind of end to end all of the ecosystem Kind of go from being able to the on ramp and the off ramp and everything around that is just. It's one thing if you're moving, if like I'm just moving $100 to you in Brazil, uh, but if all of a sudden it's two or three million dollar payment, right, you're probably going to scrutinize that chain for sure a lot more. And I think that corporate is going to look at that. They see that they have to do that. It has to be all in the, you know, context matters, right? It has to be in the context of their, you know, treasury and Risk, uh, policies that are approved by the board. They want to have that in context of their, you know, uh, their own system. Has to be in a system, you know, in the context of all their cash flow, intelligence and liquidity platform and how they're managing that, the various banks, how does that fit into the context of all those pieces? So it's not like you got all that, which they do and then, and even, even those that might not have, you know, and we're dealing in a transitionary uh, period where you have legacy workstations that around for 30, 40 years and then they're having all these workarounds and spreadsheets still and they're still managing that. So you, I think you, um, what's, what's super interesting and I think that's what JP Morgan is kind of seizing on is that intercompany. And if you're a really big company and you're, when you're dealing with all, uh, lots of different entities, especially around the world you're dealing with um, the entities are set up that have to have their own statutory sets of books. Uh, they have to operate an arm's length uh, between different intercompany entities. So there's rules and how they can actually do business. There's certain reasons of what they're doing business with one another for, for those reasons they're splitting different business uh, uh, segments like into different companies and things like that or concentrations. So if treasury always kind of executes on that playbook that maybe business or tax is setting up, accounting is having to, you know, monitor and all that and account for it with you know, all your journal entries and stuff, consolidation and all that. But treasury has to execute the money movement and settlement of that intercompany. And they're always having to make sure that they can't, if they send a payment from one entity to another, it can't like pierce the veil. And if you if you make a payment for something in the wrong way, it can potentially invalidate for tax purposes why they exist. The stakes are high, you can't mess it. So I think when you look at now uh, if you're involving treasury and banks to be able to transact or settle that, oftentimes you're doing it in batch at the end of the month because you're like anything, everything is all kind of batch based or has been for the last 30 years. Well now when you can could use a stablecoin and you could um, you could actually just make it like a ledger transfer and you could actually manage all of that. I mean it starts to get in another, yet another sort of killer use case that starts to get developed. And if you could do that in a way that, So I think JP Morgan's smart because they're saying um, if we have that way to extend our ledger to manage all that and you're using different banks, uh, to do all that, you might bring more business in House to J.P. morgan because now you're going to really truly leverage it as a global bank. And now you can kind of manage that a lot of that internal banking function a lot more efficiently with these, you know that more of a cost efficient ledger mechanism. So I think what happens now when you look at stable coins, um, it's interesting JP Morgan kind of went early on that with JPM coin and the other banks really don't have something like that. So now that that's moving really fast, what's going to level the playing field? Are they gonna, Jake Morgan, to continue to kind of drive that forward? Are the stable coins going to give a version of that, that's bank agnostic and then that's going to quickly level the playing field maybe in a way that's sort of, you know, uh, then you start to see how does that start to interact with the bank? Is it part of the bank, is it with the bank, is it even separate from the bank? And all of those things in terms of how they unfold is going to be super interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think right now there's a lot of conversations taking place across the banking industry of how we're going to tackle this, how are we going to respond as an industry? Are the big banks going to do thing together? Uh, will there be regional consortiums or anchored around certain industries? Um, you know there was uh, some context for who we are and where we've been on this journey of kind of tokenized deposits. We were one of the founding members of something called The USDF consortium. And that was an effort, um, um, with a group of banks who wanted to be at the forefront of thinking about blockchain thinking about tokenized asset flows, thinking about how that intersected with the regulated banking industry. Um, it was a little bit ahead of its time and the prior administration, um, became kind of gummed up with some of the concerns at that time around, um, Bitcoin, you know, blockchain, all things blockchain. There were a lot of high profile challenges and so um, that effort, you know, ended up kind of, you know, not going anywhere. But at the time, you know, we were thinking about all the things we're talking about right now. How are banks going to lean in here? How are they going to be prepared, how are they going to compete, heat, what are they going to use these blockchain enabled um, kind of networks for, to provide real utility to their, their customers. And that is something that we're still continuing to kind of really lean in on, look for the new technologies that banks should be utilizing. So still, uh, remains very front and center, very top of mind for what we're focused on, for new investments and what we're talking to our banks about.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, super cool. So how do you, I mean, how do you think. Then again, maybe when you look at some of the smaller banks, how they will, they. Do you think there's a play to kind of interact with those in a way that could once again kind of level the playing field a little bit?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean there are some of the large kind of uh, vendors who kind of work, you know, deep inside the bank technology ecosystem. The fiservs, the fis, the Jack Henry's, I think that they'll have some kind of stablecoin partnerships. You're already seeing some of that. Um, Paxos announced a partnership with Fiserv, so you're seeing some of these early kind of partnerships be established. Um, I think banks will be thinking long and hard about is this a tokenized deposit, you know, where those funds are actually sitting on our balance sheet. It's not, you know, funds flowing out of the industry or is it a stablecoin construct where you're growing, you know, treasury backed, you know, type of stablecoin assets. That's a big kind of debate right now. I think it's very uncertain in terms of, you know, which one is going to have, uh, more success in the coming years. Right now it's all things stablecoin. Um, but yeah, banks are really uh, need to kind of understand kind of how this could Affect their payments business, their treasury business, their business. And then in consumer banking, you know I think there's, there's three big things that are kind of factors uh, that are at play that, that kind of converge here. Um, you think about AI, ah, you think about faster payments, um and you think about open banking.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And so you put those together and what they really go after is a lot of the banking revenue streams are built around some lazy customer behavior.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Where we have these kind of low yielding kind of deposits. And I think that I can really kind of attack that you think about the large corporate treasury managers here. I listened to a presentation earlier was a woman from uh, Bed Bath and Beyond, she was the head of treasury there and like is to make sure that there is no idle cash any day inside of the Bed Bath and Beyond ecosystem and AI and automation is going to bring that um, to a much more efficient place which will probably put some spread pressure for the traditional bank net interest income type of revenue stream. So thinking about that, where is the puck headed there in terms of how banks are making money? Uh both in consumer banking all the way up through large corporate banking probably have some secular pressure on margin and net interest income over time as automation a uh, faster payments and it kind of attacking the inherent opacity and kind of laziness of some customer behavior to maximize yield. Uh, that's going to change quick.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so that money in motion and that uh, self driving money concept.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Is one that we think is very real and we're looking for the tech solutions like Truvada that can kind of

Speaker A: help it seems like you know, whether it's APIs, cloud, AI and now stablecoin and as you go through these it's like okay, this is interesting. It's getting more interesting, it's getting even more interesting. But all of a sudden now if stablecoins in the context of all of them together. Right. I think you kind of lose that then it's like yeah, now you're starting to get all the pieces together. That's starting to.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. Don't forget like one of the things that the genius act allowed is for brands, non bank brands to issue their own stable coins. And so I have to believe that somewhere inside of Walmart and Amazon they are going to be coming out with something powerful for a consumer value prop.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, where there is a stablecoin and they're also trying to attack the interchange which we know they hate going after that. And so they're going to create some interesting value props and new products and services like that's, that's coming. And so banks thinking about building something comparable, um, where you're getting a yield component and you're providing real utility for the customer base, I think that's going to be something that banks have to be laser focused on. That, that is the real risk that I think the genius act left the door open to, um, is large brands like that, uh, rolling out new products and services that have a yield component accomplishes what they want in terms of reducing one of their costs, which is interchangeable. And the genius act is allowing them to do that. So there's a lot more interesting things to come here in the coming months.

Speaker A: Can't wait. No. See, it feels like. Is it all going to stick?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because that's the framework.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So now it's like it's, it's going to be a nail biter for all that until how that all. All turns into law. Right? No doubt.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Very cool. Well, hey, thanks for joining us. Yeah, obviously.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Love all the insights.

Speaker B: Thrilled to work with you guys.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Great team and tons of momentum and look forward to the next couple chapters.

Speaker A: Appreciate all you guys. Yeah, thank you. Thanks.

Speaker B: All right.