What Losing Someone Taught Me About Living | Jill Halfpenny

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to our final episode of season six of our podcast, Fear Less. Do More. Today's guest doesn't really need much of an introduction and we're delighted to be joined by award winning actress Jill Halfpenny. Jill is from Gateshead and she's got a fantastic career that spans tv, theatre and audio. Needless to say, we're really looking forward to this one.

Speaker B: I auditioned, along with my friend for a production of Sweeney Todd was the first one we did, and that was being directed by a director called Ken Hill. Ken had said something very complimentary about me to my chaperone and she sort of like, said, Ken said, you know, he thinks you're really good, Ken. Ken thinks I'm good. Oh, my God. If Ken thinks I'm good, maybe I've got a shot at this. What is a more interesting question to ask kids these days? Say, what do you want to be an influencer? Why? I think I've got a really unique voice or point of view and. And I think I'm a really good salesperson. Then I'm like, oh, okay, you've got something in there that can tell me that if that was to stop, you could pivot and go somewhere else. The key to my business is how are you in the bits when you're not working? How are you when you've been rejected for the 10th time and you've also split up with your boyfriend? Or you've also had to move back in with your mum cause you haven't got any money? It's like, really like, what is in it? Can you dig any deeper? For me, even at my lowest, lowest moment, I've always thought, I just think I really want to do this still.

Speaker C: Jill, welcome. Um, it's lovely to have you on our podcast, Fearless. Do more today. Probably one of the guests that I've had who needs very little introduction. I mean, I feel like from a personal point of view, you're almost like a member of my family because every time I switch on the tv, um, you're there, your face is there and you're sort of part of our clan. So. Which is great, because, you know, I love it when we see a woman from this region who is doing well and isn't afraid to be a woman from this region. You've still got your Geordie accent. You haven't morphed into something different. So it's great to have you here. Everybody will have seen you in something over the years. You've been on stage, you've been, um, in theatre. You've done audio. Where did that all start? Did you always want to be that person?

Speaker B: So when I was really young, I did a lot of dancing, like went to a dance school. And I always remembered really enjoying the dancing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: But thinking, what else? What else is there? And then we started doing, you know, when you watch, I mean it's, it's a bit more professional kind of outfit now, but when you would watch pantomimes, especially up here years ago, you'd always see a little troupe of tiny little dancers come on and do a little dance behind, like Snow White. And then we're not, uh, our dancer was chosen to be, you know, the, the small dancers. So that was like the first time I walked on like a big stage at the time theater, Opera house and kind of felt that sort of buzz of an audience. And I just remember even then, I mean, you know, even then thinking, well, I mean this is fun, but I want to, like, have words to say I want to have a character. Uh, you know, I'd watch them in rehearsals, you know, having a bit of banter with each other and think, that's what I want to do. So it was always there in some way or other. And I think I was lucky enough to be put in a situation which was the dance school that made me see and believe that, uh. Oh, yeah, it's possible because look, I've gone from there and now I'm on the stage and now I'm talking to other people and now I'm going to audition for that production of Annie they're going to do. And oh, that person's introduced me to the person that works at the other theatre. It's really all about where you are. Because if no one tells you that these things are available to you, you don't know or you don't think it's accessible. It's a bit different now because of the Internet, but I was lucky enough to just be in the places where I could see while they're doing it. That's their job. Uh, I'm going to do that too.

Speaker C: So is there somebody in particular who sort of took you under their wing and said, I can see. I could see you in those roles. I could see you being the person who is the character with the voice.

Speaker B: Yeah. So there was, um, at the, ah, Newcastle Playhouse, as it was called at the time. It's now an open stage. I auditioned with, along with my friend for a production of, um, Sweeney Todd was the first one we did, and that was being directed by a director called Ken Hill, who is no longer with us, but was quite a big deal. You know, it was a. He was a really good director. And we went along and we auditioned, and we both got the part. And the role was. It was various different roles throughout the show. And we would appear in different scenes. And Ken, just being the way that he was, really treated us like part of the company, not like little kids. And we'd sit there for hours, like in the rehearsal room, watching the sort of show come together. And he'd direct me and he'd say, don't do that. Do this. Or when you walk into the room, think more about, like, where have you been? And how do you feel about that person? And he would give me notes. And notes are something that actors get. You know, at the end of a show, a director will come in and say, okay, right, okay. Act two, scene one. Um, I don't want you to look at that person in that way. I want you to do something else. So that would be, like, a note for an actor. And he would give us notes as kids. And I just thought it was brilliant. I said, come on. Because it just made me feel like he actually cared about what I was doing. Often, I think when you're a kid and you're doing ensemble work, you can just feel like part of a huge group. And the special thing about Ken was he directed us all individually, so my note would be different from my friend's note. I mean, how cool was that? You know, I was like, you know, 12 at the time or something. So that really solidified for me. I was like, I love this. I love it so much. And I'd heard that Ken had said something very complimentary about me to my chaperone. And she sort of, like, said, ken said, you know, he thinks you're really good. And that, to me, was like, ken? Ken thinks I'm good. Oh, my God. If Ken thinks I'm good, maybe I've got a shot at this. And then obviously after that came Biker Grove. And then everything just. Every time I did another job, another theater job, Biker Grove, anytime I did any appearances anyway, or performances, everything just solidified what I knew that I wanted, which was to go to drama school and to be an actor.

Speaker C: So where did you go to drama school?

Speaker B: So I went to Weber Douglas, which is in London. It's actually not there anymore. It's part of Central now. They emerged. But, um, yes, I trained for three years down there.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, that was. How old were you when you went?

Speaker B: 18.

Speaker C: So that must have Been quite a big. I mean, I know you were in that world up here, but sort of taking that step and what did that feel like at the age of 18?

Speaker B: So I just finished my A levels and it's funny because I. I think the way the world is now, it's slightly different and because of the economy and because it's so difficult for people to, um, live on their own, a lot of people live with their parents for a lot longer. So we talk about our children and they're like, 25.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yes.

Speaker B: And they're still. They're still asking, you know, for advice or to borrow money or whatever. But when I was younger, being 18, it was like, you're off. Yeah.

Speaker C: You're not going to get on with it.

Speaker B: And I think that was actually brilliant. Obviously, you know, I could do that. I was given the opportunity to do that, but. So, yeah. So to answer your question, what did it feel like? It felt right. It felt like the right thing to do. I didn't think I'm so young. I just was like, um, I've got a place at drama school. Like, I'm going and I'll get there and I'll meet someone and we'll find a place to live, which we did, you know, staying at a sort of friend's house for the first few weeks. And you just sort of did it. You just, you know, I hear parents now and I will sure enough be that parent. Like, we found them their accommodation. We've gone to Dunelm, we've got all the bits and pieces. Got them a nice rug, got them a memo board. I'm like f. Cking out. Like, we were just like, say, yeah, bye.

Speaker C: But I couldn't wait for it either. When I was 18, I was like, oh, my God, I'm getting away from here. This is brilliant.

Speaker B: Really desperate. And you know what? I don't blame this generation at all. It's the way it's us, uh. It's us as parents and the way the world is now. But I really miss that sort of grit that.

Speaker C: The freedom, uh.

Speaker B: And the freedom that all my friends had, which was just a sort of like, wait and see. See what happens. Just doing it now, everything. There's a lot of fear involved in decisions all the time. Is it the right decision? Is it the wrong decision? What will happen? We'll have somewhere to live. It's like, that's life. You work it out. You work it out. That's what you have to do.

Speaker C: And I completely agree. I think we've knocked out Risk taking, yeah. And I think it's, you know, I didn't really see it as risk, the things that I did when I was 18 because I was just like, well, you know, you just look at consequences. I just thought, oh, well, I quite fancy doing that. I'll go and do that. Yeah. Um, but, you know, now I think we're sort of so risk aware all the time and it's built into everything we do in society. I question whether it is good for our young people. You know, from a business point of view. I go, well, who are the entrepreneurs of the future? Because we're training the risk out of them.

Speaker B: You know, like, I have friends who, you know, uh, employ people and they'll say, you know, I have like my young employees saying, um, my mom's going to come in tomorrow just to have a chat with you, with me, because I'm not really happy about something that's going on and I just want to. Can you imagine when we were 18 going, my mom's coming into work with me to have a word with my boss. You'd be mortified. So I think all of that again, it's like I really think we've gone too far the other way. I think there was a, uh, sort of a sense, and I'm not quite sure when it was maybe like the late 2000s or something where everyone was like, we need to be there for our children. You know, we haven't been, we haven't been attentive enough. It was all about being present and being attentive. And I think we've just gone so far the other way that we're still holding their hands when they're like young adults.

Speaker C: Do you not think though that sometimes that thing is around the parents serving their own interests because they, they like that. They like, you know, they like to feel wanted, they like to feel needed, they like to feel in the center of their children's lives, you know, So I think as parents we've probably perpetuated some of that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: But the knock on effect has been that, uh, our young people perhaps aren't as resilient as we were when we grew up because we, I definitely didn't have any of that.

Speaker B: And the thing is, because we didn't have that got us out sold because we didn't have mobile phones. Like when I was at drama school, I would speak to my mum once a week on a Sunday, uh, for about 20 minutes. Okay, something like that. And if I was out that Sunday, it would be the next Sunday. That would Speak. Or I'd have to go to a phone box up the road and be like, I, uh, got put 20 pence in. I'm all right, you know, whatever. So that level of connection was not there. And I'm not saying that being connected is a bad thing, of course, you know, uh, I'm all about connection, but it's about. I don't think the first thought you should have is, well, someone else can help me. It's like, but what can I do? What can I do for myself to get through this situation? If I need to reach out and speak to somebody, then I will.

Speaker C: But, I mean, I had a battery. I mean, I used to work. I worked at my first job as a top shop at the Metro Center.

Speaker B: Oh, amazing.

Speaker C: And, um, it was great, you know, because we had the DJ under the stairs and all of that sort of thing. So cool. But then, you know, the buses would go on strike or there would be a massive snowfall. And I lived in Wynlayton at the top of the hill, and I used to. I would walk back from the Metro center, uh, at night, you know, up the massive hill in the snow. You know, I didn't think twice about. It's doing that sort of thing. But I think that sort of. That's probably why I've ended up being a bit the way I am.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Because of that.

Speaker B: I think you do. I think we just. You just had to. If you wanted to keep your job.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You had to find a way. You couldn't say, I'm not coming in today because the buses are off.

Speaker C: They'd be like, snowing. It's.

Speaker B: Well, find another way to get there. Whereas now it's like, oh, we couldn't possibly think that people could come into work when it was snowing.

Speaker C: So we've put the world to rights on that. We know that our childhood obviously produced far better adults than anybody else's generation did. Kids of the 80s. Yeah, exactly. Um, you've talked there about, you know, sort of, um, how you just really wanted it. And there is this perception and there's a lot of people. You know, I think somebody was saying to me the other day, if you ask any, a lot of young people now, what they want to be when they grow up, they want to be influencers. And I think that's actually fine. If that's what they want to be, that's absolutely fine. We shouldn't be saying to them, that's not going to happen. But, you know, you will know from your experience, the entertainment industry is not the easiest of industries to get into, but also to then stay relevant and want people to People to see you in production after production after production. But you've managed to do that. What is real life like in the entertainment industry? But secondly, how have you managed to stay relevant?

Speaker B: So I think the nub of that whole question is, why do you want to do it? Because I think that's sometimes what is a more interesting question to ask kids these days. You say, what do you want to be? An influencer. Why? If they say, because I want to be famous and I want to get things for free, I'd probably say that's going to be a sort of fairly short career for you, not very fulfilling. If they say, I think I've got a really unique voice or point of view, and I think I'm a really good salesperson and I think I can make. Then I'm like, oh, okay, M. You've got something in there that can tell me that if that was to stop, you could pivot and go somewhere else. Or it's a point of view of like a business head on you. But my goal was never to be famous. Uh, I would be lying if I said it didn't feel nice, you know, when people recognize me from Biker Grove and things like that. And obviously it's funny with my industry, because one can think that the more famous you are, the more successful you are. And that isn't always the case, actually, that there are like a plethora of actors who you would not know if you saw them on the street, who never stop working, who do amazing stuff. In fact, some. Sometimes I think they have the most interesting careers because they're not personalities in any way. They're, uh, not what you would describe in any way, celebrity. So they just get put in many, many, many different projects because in some sense they have a more neutral kind of overtone to them. So, yeah, so the first thing for me was that I really wanted to act. I really, really wanted that lifestyle. And, And I knew that it was going to be difficult. I knew that it wouldn't be easy. But I also just had like a blind naivety as well. Because again, pre Internet, pre. Pre social media, uh, I didn't have like a huge amount of people in my face saying, it's terrible, it's too difficult, you know. You know, most people fail. I mean, they did tell us that at drama school, like, the top 1% will only ever kind of work. They sort of reminded you of that every day. And for me, that just felt like, why are you telling me that I'm here now anyway? Like, tell that to the people who are thinking about auditioning because if you want to put somebody off, put them off them. But I'm here now and I'm paying and now you're telling me. But. So I think your intention is really important what your intention behind what you want to do. M. So I think all I have done throughout my whole career is just try to stay as consistent as possible. So I think it's very easy when you haven't. You're having a few fallow years or things aren't going very well, or you're struggling to try and be seen in a different light. I think it's quite easy. And I understand when people say, I'm, um, out, I'm doing something else, I'm going to do a massive pivot and I'm going to go over there and, and I get that. Uh, that's not, it's not a criticism, but I've just sort of somehow always thought it is. I know it's a cliche, but it really is a marathon, it's not a sprint. So your peers that are, uh, doing amazingly well in their 20s, it's not to say they won't keep doing well. It just might be that your 40s are when you'll do well. Or, you know, think about it, uh, in like peaks and troughs. Because I don't think anybody's career in any business just does that. But certainly in mine, I think you can expect this all the time. You go in and out of fashion, in and out, uh, of favor, in and out of like, how your profile and things like that. So I think for me it's just honestly, like, just if you look, because I love it, I want to keep going. But it doesn't mean to say I haven't sat down sometimes and thought, I don't know if I've got like the strength to keep going. I don't know if financially I can keep going. I don't know if I've got any more no's or rejections left in me. Like, I don't know if I can take it. And that becomes especially hard if you're. If there's something happening in your personal life that is particularly challenging and let's face it, everyone's going to go through that. You know, that's life. Sometimes then the rejections, it's like they

Speaker C: just hurt you when you're down type.

Speaker B: They really. Yeah, they really, really sort of give. It's A sucker punch. And you're like. And then you have to some. I think, I think my industry, when people say to me, like, you know, what's the secret? Or whatever, I might. It's the successful bits. The bits when you're working, they're the easy bits. The key to my business is how are you in the bits when you're not working? How are you when you've been rejected for the 10th time and you've also split up with your boyfriend, or you've also had to move back in with your mom because you haven't got any money? It's like, really? Like, what, what is in. Can you dig any deeper? And, uh, like, again, no shame to people that go, no, I can't. I'm done. I'm out of here. Absolutely. Like, follow your heart. But for me, even at my lowest, lowest moments, I've always thought, I just think I really want to do this still. So I think I'm lucky because the choice is easy for me. I don't pull myself apart. Whether this is what I want to do. I know it is.

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Speaker C: You don't understand what real success feels like and how good it feels. If you've never had those down times, if you haven't had those times where things where you have had. The nose. Yeah, the nose. M. Make the yeses even better. Yeah, it would be, would be my sort of take on what, what you've just said. Um, but you have, I mean, you have dealt with some pretty tough stuff from a personal point of view. Yeah, I know. You know, one of the, one of the projects that you did was around grief. Um, um, because from a personal point of view. Yeah. Um, I don't want to cause you any further trauma by talking about it if you, if you don't want to. But can you just tell people what happened? Because people might not realize what, what happened to you.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I'm, I met someone and, you know, the usual kind of love story. You meet, you fall in love and, you know, it was all great. And this was Sort of after my divorce as well. So there'd been a bit of time after that. And, um, he. In a nutshell, he went to the gym and he died at the gym. He died in a spin class at the gym. So it was extremely sudden, extremely unexpected, and just inconceivable. Yeah, it was just an. It was just. I mean, you know, it was like something out of a TV show. It was. It was the knock on the door. It was the, you have to come with me now. And I'm like, come with you where? To the gym. Why? Just come. Like the guy, the person couldn't even tell me why. So I'm like running to the gym because it's like a, uh, sort of five minute jog away, let's say. And I'm just running behind this person going, what? I don't. Just. This must be. But this must be terrible. But again, like, it's amazing what happens in those situations because your brain will always try and work things out. And I'm like, he must have broken his back. What if he's paralyzed? What if he could never walk again? It's all right. We'll get him m. Rehabilitated. He's very strong like that. We'll do that. Uh, so you're working it out. You're working out. And then eventually I get there and the paramedic. Well, I actually said to the paramedic because I saw the look on his face. He said, you can't go in there. And that's where he was. And I was like, is he dead? And the paramedic was like, not yet. And that was when I was like, oh, my. Oh, my. Oh, my God. Like, it's happening. Like the thing. Like the thing that you can't believe would ever happen is happening. And then, you know, took to hospital and all of that and put on machines. And then, you know, I think, um, like a couple of days later, it was pronounced dead. Um, so. Yes. So from that point, like I was saying before, you, you. I'm at my lowest, my lowest, lowest, lowest ebb. And actually, for a while, if I'm honest with you, acting just seemed completely pointless. I was like, what. What is this? Like, it's pointless. This doesn't help anyone. This isn't. This isn't making a difference to the world. This isn't. Oh, my God. What, What. You know, what am I doing doing this? And then I started to get very. I've always been interested in psychology and therapy, but I, uh, started to get more interested in it and I went on this retreat and I met this lady and she said she would train me up to be sort of a grief therapist. And I got very interested in that, and I started kind of moving towards that. And then it's funny, as I started to heal and as my nervous system calmed down and as my perspective widened again, because obviously when you're in the beginnings of grief, it really is. It really is all you can think of. It's just an all consuming, overwhelming world that you live in. And you just think, this will never, ever change. I will always feel like this. And I think that's what takes you down the most, because you really believe it won't be any different ever. But things, you know, did start to change. It did become different. And then the therapy training that I was doing, uh, I remember going away one weekend to do a little bit more intense work. And it's so ridiculous because I'd gone from like, what does acting mean? What's the point? And then I just remember being on this weekend, this therapy thing, going, oh, uh, God, I have to listen to everybody else's problem. And I remember laughing at myself and thinking, that's a really good sign. That's a really good sign because I'm laughing at myself. But I'm also kind of saying to myself, storytelling is important. People actually, you know, for some people, therapy is not the answer for them. I personally love therapy. I love it. But for some people, watching a drama that gives them what they need, they're watching their story being told by someone else, and just that connection of somebody else knows how I feel, that gives them everything they need to know. So once I started to sort of pick myself back up again, I was like, you don't have to be down on what you do. It does provide comfort to some people, and it's also just fun as well. Um, and then, weirdly, it's really strange, actually. But since Matt died, my career has actually just got stronger and I get offered more things. And I don't know what that is. I don't know what it is. But funnily enough, I was just listening to, um, there's a really beautiful podcast that Anderson Cooper does called All. All There Is. And he was talking to Nick Cave. Yeah, um, I don't know if you know Nick Cave story, but yeah, he lost his. His son. We lost two sons, actually. But, um, he was just saying that there was something about when. When Arthur died, that he experienced life and the world differently, and it was like Arthur had given him some sort of gift. In a way to kind of move forward. And that for some people who are in the beginnings of grief, that can feel like, almost blasphemous to hear that. Like, how. How can you ever say that? If I'd heard that in the first couple of, you know, on the first year even, I might have sort of recoiled. But I understand what he means now. There's something about Matt dying where I feel like. I feel like he sort of lives in me. And he was an entrepreneur, Matt. And I feel like his sort of entrepreneurial spirit sometimes pushes me.

Speaker C: But I think. I mean, I think it probably does because I think whenever you go through any sort of traumatic experience, it changes you. It has to, because you wouldn't be human if it didn't. Um, and there's an assumption always that that's always a negative. It's going to change you for the worse. Uh, but the power, if you can find something really positive in a trauma, that sort of multiplies the power in it more. And I think it gives you a purpose.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Behind it, which feels like you are doing that person. You know, it's a grief scenario. You're doing that person the best sort of tribute you possibly could because you are turning things around for. For them. I mean, it's a. It's an incredibly, um, sad story. But that message that there is hope after this, where you. You may be at, uh, rock bottom for whatever reason, uh, and you may feel you're never, ever going to come out of it, but I think you're a brilliant role model for those people who are in that position who can go. Actually, no, she. She went through that, and look where she. Where she's gone and she's able to find some positive in it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, I've not been in that position, and it must be incredibly difficult. I mean, I can sympathize, but I can't. I can't empathize because I don't understand what that feels like. But I would imagine that, um, you would feel pretty broken. So to come back from that is. Is, you know, it says a lot about your fearless character.

Speaker B: Well, actually, one of the things, you know, if anybody is listening or thinks that they don't feel like that or they can't feel like that. You know, one of the things that I've always talked about is, you know, my. My dad died in a very similar circumstances when I was very young, and that was never really dealt with because I was very young and it was a different time and blah, blah, blah. So when Matt died. It sounds strange, I know, but I sort of really made a conscious decision to go. I'm now gonna grieve my dad and Matt at the same time. I'm gonna do all of the things that I never was able to do as a four year old for my dad, and I'm gonna feel that as well. And a lot of people are like, oh my God, you're already in enough pain, like, why bother? But for me, I think the only way to access this feeling that I'm talking about of, uh, somehow being able to take that grief and turn it into something else. I think the only way you can do that is if you really allow yourself to feel the pain, feel the sadness. And I know for, for a lot of people, they're like, I, uh, just, I don't want to, I can't. But I, I just let myself. I, I did not shy away from, from the crying, from the grieving. I spent hours on my own in solitude. I wanted. I didn't try to distract myself with things. I didn't, I didn't try and run away from it. I was like the woman who, Donna Lancaster, who's an extraordinary woman, um, who talks about grief and loss. A lot of, you know, it was just always walk towards it, walk towards it, walk towards it, make friends with it, understand it. It's, it's going to teach you something and it's up to you what you want to take from it. And I'm not suggesting anybody should be happy for anything that's ever happened to them. Like everybody always said, yeah, I'm saying this like, oh, yeah, I've really learned stuff. But if you said to me, but, uh, if you could like click my fingers and have my dad and Matt back, yeah, in an instant, yes, I'd be a less evolved person because there is no way that something like that can happen to you and you don't become more empathetic, more softer to the world, um, more sort of willing or more keen to have moments like this where you go, really, what, what, what else is there? But so sort of connection and a feeling of togetherness because when you know life leaves you in an instant, you're like, this is, this is. These moments are really all we've got. It's all, it's what, it's, it's what makes up for the mundane and the hard work in between. It's this type of thing, you know,

Speaker C: the, the only sort of, um, parallel that I've got is that I've had cancer twice and um, well, that is huge. And face. It's when you're faced with, with death is when you really work out what's important in life. And when I've had friends and you know, as everybody has who have been in a similar situation when they've received a diagnosis. I've always said that you will, you will laugh again.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And you will find some joy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And probably some of it will be because of the thing that you're going through now. But you just can't see it yet and you've just got to sit with it. That's what I found as well. It sounds quite similar that if I sat with it and accepted while this is happening.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: It's shit. That's, you know, it's. Nobody can argue that this is a shit time. And like you say, given the choice, I would go back to that day when I sat in the doctor's office and you would go, it's all fine.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but from it, my attitude to life has completely changed. And I will not in some ways probably not great because I'm very intolerant of crap. People blow up into huge things when I'm like, that's just like minor. Just what do you know? There's, there's worse things to get your knickers in a twist about.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But there is some, there's some real positives that have come out of friendships that you make.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker C: Connections that you make through these traumatic things. You know, people that have seen you. Got you.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Stay with you.

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker C: And those are the real valuable things that can come m out of it.

Speaker B: I mean even know the way we met, you know, we were, we were at ah. Like a, um, uh. Like an opening, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we were just chatting. But I think sometimes when people have been through something like that, they know how to cut through the, the chitchat and the crap and just get straight to something. And like this is what I do. So I do what you find. There's something about, for me the directness of that that I really like that I've always been drawn to. Um. And like you say the, the, the laughing, there's sometimes, sometimes the laughs are ah, deeper and harder because of what it's like when people say gallows.

Speaker C: I mean the developer is back humor.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. I mean the amount that I laugh. Yeah. It's the ridiculousness of life and the fact that we still, and I still. Even after what I'm saying to you today, I still think I'm in control sometimes. And then I laugh and I'm in the car going, what am I talking about? Of course I'm not in control. Anything can happen at any moment. But I always say this to people, good or bad, though. Don't just. Don't just think, well, anything can happen at any moment. It could be really bad. It's like. But the most amazing thing could happen in the next five minutes. Like, if you believe one, you have to believe the other. You have to. So this whole, you know, this thing at the minute where everyone's so anxious all the time. I get it. But I also say. But if you. I say this to my therapist, if you really believe something terrible is going to happen, the other side of the coin has to be true as well then. Because what you're saying is, you know, anything could happen. Yeah, but it could be good.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, that's a really brilliant way of reframing it. And m. I'm sure there will be people listening who think, oh, actually, yeah, like a bit of a light bulb moment there around that.

Speaker B: Uh, well, I hope so, because I think we just live with so much fear now.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think your story is about unlocking that fear. And. And before I had cancer, I was terrified of cancer. I was like, oh, my God, if I ever get diagnosed with cancer, oh, my God. But now that I've got it, I'm just like, well, that's. That's just a thing. It's just part of my life. And I think if you can accept something has shaped you into a particular way, takes the fear out of it altogether, when you face it, you've been there, you go, actually, I know what that feels like.

Speaker B: And people's biggest fear is death. So disease. You know, when people, people, I mean, remember, we don't do it as much now, but remember when people used to whisper the word cancer? Or people will say, like, um, I'm sorry that your partner isn't with us anymore. You go, yeah, he died, he died. He's dead. Like, I don't think those words are bad words. They're words that are natural. We're born and we die. We shouldn't be frightened of those words. Let's take the stigma out of them that they're not bad words. It's the circle of life. Like, we have to. We have to embrace that. I mean, that is the only way to unlock being present. If you really can believe that that's what's going to happen, then you go, wow, we are pretty blessed to be on this Planet every day. But you can't think like that. If you just. If you. If the dying bit is like, we don't talk about that. Put that bit in the cupboard. It's like, no, we have to talk about that bit. Otherwise you're just going to think your life's going to go on forever and you'll do everything tomorrow and you'll apply for that job.

Speaker C: I will say it's really ironic as well, and this conversation's going off in completely different direction. But, um, you know, we do so much planning around, um, birth.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: With so much, like, it's a good birth, have a birth plan. But then when we come to death, it's like, oh, just like, keep it away from people 100%. Don't let anybody see it. It's a. You know, it's a bad thing. Uh-huh.

Speaker B: Um, people say, I've, you know, mums or dads, I've done a funeral plan. Oh, don't talk. Don't talk about that. It's like, you know, how kind that is that somebody has taken the time to pay for or to set out what they would like. Do you know how stressful it is to think about what somebody might have wanted for their funeral? What music would they want? Oh, my God. What if we choose the wrong one? Oh, God, what? What this? And nowadays, I mean, it's like a comedy sketch. How many questions you get asked, like, what color do you want the coffin? Oh, my God, what are you talking about? Like, why was all these questions? But so for me, I think you're absolutely right. You know, people talk about having a doula and, I mean, you know, women talk, you know, forever about their birth plans. And we also know that those never really work out. But at least with your funeral plans, you can say, yeah, like, there it is to me. I'm gonna do that. I think that's such a lovely gift to give someone to just say. So you can just get on with feeling how you're feeling. You don't have to be on the phone to 50 different people making decisions that you don't know are the right or wrong ones. M. I think that's really beautiful.

Speaker C: My mother died this summer. And, um, we. M. I'm an only child. My dad's an only child. This is the two of us and my two kids. But we found my mum had planned it all. She was an organiser. She was. That was her thing. She was so super, super organized with everything and she had written everything out. And the joy that that gave My dad knowing that he was giving her exactly what she wanted with her send off.

Speaker B: Oh, that makes me cry. That's so lovely. That's what I mean, what a gift.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: To give to someone like, what a. The contentedness of knowing that, um, you're not making the wrong decision, you haven't chosen the wrong music, you're not doing the.

Speaker C: What would the.

Speaker B: I mean, it's really stressful that those conversations. And those are the type of conversations that can cause arguments between people.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, he used to like that. Well, no, no, no, he never said that to me. He's like, you're like, I'm in some sort of nightmare here.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, yeah, you're, you're say. What's your mum called?

Speaker C: Marion.

Speaker B: Marion. She did a great thing there.

Speaker C: She did, she did an absolutely great thing. And you know, unfortunately, I mean, she had, she had Alzheimer's. So she, she must have done that quite some time ago.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Where she thought, right, I'm gonna make sure, yeah, this is done properly. She probably just didn't trust me dad at all to do it properly.

Speaker B: Take me half to her. I think that's really incredible.

Speaker C: It was, it was, it was, it was lovely and it meant a lot to everybody that was there, that that was what she wanted. They were taking part in something she wanted. She didn't want black. Everybody had wear purple or pink. It was all of these sorts just. But, you know, really lovely things. That meant it was very personal. So I think I completely agree. We need to start talking about what a good death looks like.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Um, you know, obviously you can't plan for what happened. Mhm. To you. That was out of the blue. You can't plan for that. But you can plan for how you then deal with it as a family in a support group around it and honoring that person in a way that they would have really liked.

Speaker B: Have you heard of a woman called Catherine Mannix?

Speaker C: No.

Speaker B: She's from the northeast. She's written about three books now, but all on good death.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: She's incredible. It's so weird, right? So I was doing, um, you know, Sunday brunch, the TV show. So I was doing.

Speaker C: Always wanted to go on that ideal thing, that going on really eating.

Speaker B: So I think I was there, I was talking about my book and Tim Lovejoy was interviewing me and he was chatting away, chatting away. And he went, have you heard of Katherine Mannix? I said, oh no. He said, um, oh, she's got a few books out now, but I think it's called with the End in Mind. Um, I said, oh, I'll get it, definitely. Um, I've never heard of her. Three, four days later, something like that. I get on a train and my ticket's been pre booked and I look and it's like on, um, a table. And then I look over to the other side and there's like a single seat free. And I like, I'll take the single seat. So I take the single seat and I'm just sat there and this woman sits down. She kind of looks over two or three times. Join. Excuse me, you, Are you Jill, Half Penny? I said, oh, yeah. She said, ah, oh, I've noticed you've just like written a book. And, um, you know, it's really cool. My name's Catherine Mannix. I was like, no, no. What? And we just had the nicest conversation. And she was, I mean, she's just the person to talk about, just so articulate about the whole thing. And her experience of being with people at the end of their life is just, it's extraordinary. So, um, that was how weird. Like, up until, up until then, I'd never heard of her. And there she was and I was supposed to be sat opposite her. Uh, and thankfully she sort of, you know, called me out and said, you know, hello. It was lovely.

Speaker C: That's almost an incredible coincidence. It's funny how life sometimes isn't. It works out that, in that way, doesn't it?

Speaker B: And I always think if you're really, you know, sometimes when I get really busy or I get uptight or bothered about things like you said, that shouldn't really bother me. I think I really close myself off to those, um, situations. I think there's something about when you're really, when you've experienced something quite traumatic or quite painful, your heart in effect feels like it's kind of open and quite. To me, it does anyway. And I always feel that those encounters and those things happen when you're like, you're open to them. And lately I've been really, really busy and I can feel myself feeling quite closed. So, so I'm kind of working at the minute on just like, come on, like, open up, like, look around, like, remember, like feel close to those, the people and, and, and sometimes the pain as well. Because I think that if you don't, you harden a little bit.

Speaker C: Yeah. So how do you, how do you do that? So how do you keep yourself open? Do you have techniques that you use?

Speaker B: Yeah, I would. So literally something like the podcast I listen to, um, I Know I'm going to be listening to somebody talking about something that's probably going to move me. I know that I'm probably going to gain a lot of wisdom from what they're saying as well. So something as easy as that, listening to a podcast that you, you know, will touch you. Because again, some people avoid anything that they know might sort of get to them. I would actively think about the person or the pain, again, something that people are like, why would I do that? And it's like, because I want to be in touch with. There's something about, I think, being in touch with something like that and something like what you went through, that even though I'm not a religious person, I think it brings you closer to whatever that thing is, that higher power, if you believe in any of that, that entity. There's something about a sort of meeting of like, I, I, uh, need you. Like I, I, I, I. You know, like, you see people who, they've never gone to church in their lives, they don't believe in God and something terrible happens and they'll get on their knees and they'll go, please, God, like, make this be okay. Um, you can. I, I feel like there's something in all of us that just at those moments they open themselves up to a possibility of there might be something else and I might need that something else's help. And that's what I've been feeling less close to lately and like, opening myself up to that and I want, I want to allow other things in.

Speaker C: I mean, it's an incredibly incredible, um, story. In your work though, you have done so many different roles. Are there roles that you've said yes to or no to because of what you've been through and thought either, no, I'm not going there, or yes, I'm going to walk into that one, even though I think it might be hard.

Speaker B: Nah, there's nothing that I've shied away from because I've been sort of scared about the emotional side of it. When I say no to roles, it's always about, um, does it excite me? Where is it happening? Like from a logistical point of view, can I make it work with my son and my ex husband? Like, is that going to be okay if I'm away? How much money have I got in the bank right now and how much do I need to be working or not be working? So there's, there's like lots of different decisions, but I'm never really afraid of the emotional content of something, even though I know it Comes at a cost. I don't go to work and have to. You know, like, I did a show called the Long Shadow. That's not a pleasant thing to do. That's not a pleasant thing to have to go to work and to think about losing your daughter and spend four hours crying while you've got a camera in your face. That is not enjoyable. But what's enjoyable is the bit afterwards where you feel like you may have served a purpose in some way. And actually, after that job, the. The mother who I was portraying, Doreen M. Her daughter, wrote me a letter and said that her mother was so happy with what she saw and she felt like it was, um, a truer portrayal of. Of her that she'd sort of seen in the way that we'd approached it. And to me, that's it. It's like, oh, I told a story and the person whose story it was felt like I'd honored them. So then that. It's like afterwards, it makes it worthwhile. But the doing of that. No, I don't know. I don't look forward to it at all. But it's part of my job. It's like, there must be part of your job that you go, I hate this bit. But you know that it's really important to get it right. It was just the same thing, really.

Speaker C: I mean, I've seen you in loads of things. One of the ones that I really liked was Cuckoo.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker C: Which I thought was just like. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. So that was. You were played a real Machiavellian character in that one. What's your sort of happy place? Do you like being a bad guy or do you like being there?

Speaker B: So that was interesting. So when they sort of first came to me with the idea, the producer, um, Mike Benson, who I've worked with quite a few times now, who's gorgeous, he was chatting away to me and he said, so this is the story. And. And we want you to be like the woman in the house. And she has this kind of person come in, this intruder, and blah, blah, blah. He's telling me the story. And I was like, well, I'm the woman in the house. And he's like, yeah. And I went, but I want to be the other woman. And he's like, do you? Because I suppose again, people have an idea of kind of who you are or what you can do or. Or what you're most like. And I was like, no, the other woman sounds really fun. And I was like, I'd like, to be the one causing trouble. Great. Yeah. Great. Let's do that then. So I think, yeah, to answer that question, I. I really enjoy more so than. Than ever just doing things that are a bit more unexpected. It's so hard in my business, unless you're a superstar, to get to play the parts that when you were at drama school, you always thought you wanted to play. You know, like, when you're at drama school, you're like, maybe I'll play like, a Russian princess. Maybe like, you know, a soldier. And it's like, you get out there and they're like, yeah, can you play Kelly? She works in the doctor's surgery. And you're like, yeah, I'll be Kelly. Um, so you. You find that.

Speaker C: And then

Speaker B: sometimes in acting, you become, like, a slight victim of your success. So you have success and people like you, but then people want you to do the same thing all the time. Yeah. Um, and, you know, I have to pay my bills, so I'm gonna say yes to things. But sometimes you're like, oh, by just, can we move the needle a bit?

Speaker C: Can we move.

Speaker B: So I've. I've enjoyed in the past couple of years being able to just move the needle slightly. And I. I really hope going forward, I want to continue to do that, because that was what, you know, when I was 18 and I went to drama school, that was totally my dream. My dream was to have a career that just felt completely varied. And, you know, the reality is, like I said, unless you're Scarlett Johansson, you're probably not going to be able to just sit down. Some people say, like, people think you sit next to, like, a pile of scripts, like, which one will I do today?

Speaker C: Do you think being a sort of a Geordie Girl has, uh, has helped or hindered your career?

Speaker B: People kind of label me as a Geordie actress, which is quite interesting because you don't really. You don't really see many articles. Mancunian actress.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or Brighton Girl. But Geordie actress somehow seems to be the thing. So people like it. People love the accent. The people find it very, um, warm and accessible, but then they have an idea of what that type of person could be. So it's like, are you going to cast me as a lawyer? Are you going to cast me as a surgeon? Are you going to cast me as a CEO? Probably not, because what you. What you also associate with my accent is working class. And you now have put me in a category which you don't really have in America, where it's like, oh, you talk like that. Oh, well, you must be from a certain type of band of, you know, financial situation. So I found a bit of both. But interestingly, you know, I did a job that hasn't come out yet on ITV and it was for Key Street Productions, which Nicola Schindler runs Key Street Productions now. She is like, in my opinion, like someone who you look at in your school, right? Fearless, career wise. Like you have just done, um, you've just done it. Like, she's so impressive. So anyway, I was chatting to her and you know, the show was. I think it's set in Leeds. I think I said, so what do you want me to do with Leeds accent? Well, no, not really. And there was a little part of me that was like, oh, here we go, here we go. She just wants me to do the thing that I always do. And she said, but the thing is, she said, there's not actually that many Geordie accents on television, so why shouldn't you be using that accent and being a detective and doing what you. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you're right, because it's mine. I presume it's everywhere. But when I really thought about it, I was like, apart from sort of northeast specific programs, you don't actually hear our accent that often. And I was like, yeah, like. And it's always been a passion of mine and I've talked about this loads in the past about what I've just said. Like, I have met so many different people from so many different walks of life in the Northeast who, yes, have a varying sort of different tone of a M. Geordie accent. But just because they're a surgeon, it doesn't mean that they don't have a Geordie accent. Just because, you know, they're a CEO or what. Uh, it's like, I think we really need to expand our, uh, ideas of what people with accents, what kind of jobs they do. Because when I first started out, you had to be RP if you were going to play, you know, the boss. Unless you were the boss of a garage.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? It was like, it was really, really, um, small minded. I was listening to an interview, uh, Desert Island Discs actually, with, um, Lorraine Kelly, and she was saying that, you know, one of her first jobs was at the BBC and she was super keen, like, so keen, wanted to do everything and she was doing everything. And then she got pulled in by the boss and she'd applied for this certain, uh, job which was to be like, you Know, a sort of like on screen presenter and, and he was like, it's never gonna, it's never gonna happen. Not unless you have elocution lessons. She was like, what? And he was like, we can't possibly have that accent like you know, representing us now. I'm probably only, I'm probably only like 8 or 10 years younger than Lorraine. So you gotta like remember that. That was the attitude. We have moved on, but still not nearly as much as I think we should. There are still, if people really, really admit it, there are still so much prejudice around anything that isn't what you would call a neutral accent, an RP accent.

Speaker C: Oh, there's definitely, I mean accent bias is definitely. I mean I found that when I was, you know, going into the corporate world and into law with a, uh, I had a very broad Geordie accent and mine's mellowed over time, but going in, you know, I didn't realize that my accent was that different. You know, I went to Blade and comp. It was rough for sale and then I was knocked down. So, you know, everybody around me had a, had the same sort of accent. And I went into it and people were going to me, I need a word, need a word. There's no such word as tret. There's no sepast. Not. That's not a word. And there's not you, it's you. You know, it was all of that sort of stuff and, and I was like, oh, oh God. You know, and, and you start to go, right, oh well I have to be this person. Mhm. If I'm going to get on, I have to be this. So you start to moderate. And there's a woman called, um, the Scouse scientist. I don't know whether you've seen her. I've watched her. She did a TED Talk at Teesside just recently and um, she's got a very broad scous accent. She is an amazing scientist, like top of her game and people just. And she's also, she doesn't look like,

Speaker B: you know, like a scientist.

Speaker C: She looks, she's, she's, she's very, you know, she's a young woman with long blonde hair, she wears very feminine clothes, all this sort of stuff. And she has huge accent bias against her people. You know, m presume that she must be the lab technician, not the, it's not the chief scientist, that sort of thing. And it's all about her accent.

Speaker B: It is. And I'm glad you said that because sometimes when you're an actor and you Talk about it. People can think, like, a bit bitter, uh, you know, like, oh, you. It's like, no, no, this really exists. Like, it really exists. So, like, it's nice to hear of another example. And like you said. But it's funny what you said, what you said about Tret, because when I was in EastEnders, I remember there was one point where my character was, like, in a nail bar. And I remember, like, I was doing someone's nails. I can't remember the other character. And I said something like, um, it's nice that you've tracked yourself to this, or something like that. And, um, there's a. There's a position on set, like, sort of like, continuity, where there'll be a woman or a man, and they'll be checking that you're saying the right lines, or they'll be checking that, you know, you touched your hair at the same time on each take. So it's their job to kind of make sure all the takes match. Remember coming over, going, just. Just that line there. Just that line there. I was like, look. And I said that. Say, oh, it's really good that you've traced out.

Speaker A: Cut.

Speaker B: She'd come over, just. Just that line there. And I was thinking, what.

Speaker C: What have I done wrong?

Speaker B: And then we go again, it's really good that you tret. Right, Cut. And I was like, what?

Speaker A: What is it?

Speaker B: And she went, you're saying tret. And I went, yeah, tret yourself. She went, there's no such word. And I went, wow. I was like, how can I be 29 and just learning that now? I was really. I was like, I can't believe that I did. I can't believe that I've got this far and still thought that that, uh, was, like, grammatically correct. No one's, like, corrected me, you know, until then. But there you go.

Speaker C: It is a real word. I refuse to believe that. It's not a real bird.

Speaker B: It's like, uh, voicemail. I love it because she goes, hiya. I cannot come to phone right now. I love that.

Speaker C: So are you all. Out of. All of. You know, you mentioned EastEnders there, and you also. Corey for a bit. All of those things, you know. Can you pick a sort of favorite role out of all of the things that you've done?

Speaker B: Well, like I said before, after Matt died, for some reason, and I don't know what that is, I started getting offered what I would call, um, more interesting roles and bigger roles. So one of my favorite experiences was a show that I did that not many people have Seen actually called Dark Money and it was about, um, a couple whose son had, um, ah, a huge role in an American movie and went over to film. And then when he came back home, he admitted to me, his mum, that he'd been sexually abused by the producer. So me as his mum and dad, we went to the lawyers and we're like, this is what's happened. We're going to sort of sue, we're going to take this to court. And then they said to us, well, you could do that or you could take this check. And they gave us £3 million. And we were sort of, you know, supposedly sort of like, you know, struggling. So we did. And the whole show is about, can you ever be happy when you've done that, when you've made the deal with the devil? Um, you know, what, what was the right thing to do? Should we have. Anyway, so that experience was particularly wonderful for me because I loved the director, Lewis Arnold, I loved my co star, Babu Sisi. And we collectively talked about how we were going to shoot something, um, how that would feel, what we sort of, um, we allowed ourselves, like, the creative time to discuss things. Lewis would always ask our opinion. Obviously, he's the boss, he's going to do what he wants to do. But he was like, I'm thinking about shooting it like this. How do you feel about that? And to me, that's my happiest moments, when I feel like as a team, yeah, we're creatively making something, as with any industry, you know, and I'm sure it's the same with yours. Sometimes time is of the essence and it's just bam, bam, bam. You just have to do it and you go and you sort of come home and you feel a bit empty.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So whatever job I'm doing, it doesn't matter about the part. It's more about how did it feel creatively? Like when I'm there on the floor, what, what were the kind of discussions that were being had? Because that's where I'm at my happiest with a group of people. Like, that's why I like doing theater. When you're talking about it and you're like, let's try that and let's get it up on its feet and, oh, maybe that could work. Oh, I've got an idea that to me is really fun. That's when I feel really alive.

Speaker C: You're making an impact and a contribution rather than just being. It's not transactional. It's not just, we're paying you to deliver this role, it's more collaborative.

Speaker B: Yeah. And when a director, uh, you know, I'm. I love talking technical. So when a director tells me why shooting something the way he is, or why she's shooting something the way she is, why she's chosen that angle, or why we're putting the camera up there, why it's going to take two hours to set up, I really enjoy that because I want to know from their point of view why they want to do this. Everybody's got their own thoughts and feelings about why something should happen and I just find that exciting.

Speaker C: We work quite, um, a lot with North East Green.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Up here, Alison Gwyn and the team there.

Speaker B: Yeah, she's great.

Speaker C: Transformed, um, the potential of Northeast screen in this region. What's your sort of view on things? Where do you think this could go for the region?

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, I love Alison and I love all the girls there as well. They're great. So what I would like to see is, I would like the Northeast to just be a destination for filming full stop. I think for me, sometimes where it gets a little bit stuck is where people say, you know, we want to tell stories that are from the Northeast and we want to tell. We want to. We want to film people, like, from here and what it's like. Yeah, that as well. But if you want to make money, if you want to have an industry, if you want to generate tourism, if you want to bring money back into the city, it has to be like the way Dublin is now. Uh, it's just a filming destination. It has studios, it has locations, it has catering, it has transport. And at the minute, that's what North East Green are really trying to do. They're trying to make sure that if somebody rings up and says, we want to shoot an 8, 1 hour, 8 part, 1 hour drama up in the Northeast, have you got everything we need? They can go? Yep, absolutely. When do you want to start? Whereas at the minute, it's a bit of a chicken and an egg thing because a lot of people have had to leave the region because the work isn't here. And it's like, do you want to come back? Well, um, where's the guaranteed work?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So my dream, my dream for the Northeast would be for it to be just like Manchester. It's just a place where things are filmed all the time. You walk around Manchester now, you can't move for seeing something being filmed. Their studios constantly full. If we could have something like a Game of Thrones to start us off in the way that it started off for Dublin because we have the mountains, we have the beaches, we have, like an epic landscape up here. So if we could have one of those, that would set us off really fast because that would be generating so much work so quickly that people would come. What we're doing now is better than how it was a few years ago, but a drama and then six months gap or a film and then that is better than it was. But we need sort of continuity in

Speaker C: the ecosystem to support it.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And then for people to go, well, I'm on this at the minute, but once this is finished, I'm off to do that one.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker B: And then the next February, they're doing that. And that's what you want. I would love for people to be able to, you know, like, work in sound and just live up here and be like, I can guarantee that I could work up here. That would be so nice. But I don't know how far off we are the same.

Speaker C: I mean, it's the same from a. From, you know, sort of legal point of view. People think if you want, if they want to do entertainment, uh, law or media law, huh. You've got to move to London or Manchester maybe.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so is it the same situation where if we had more things happening here that required media law, then we'd be like, well, we're here, we've got you, but chicken and egg.

Speaker C: Thing is, people assume that the people who need that advice presume that they'll only be able to get it in London. And it's quite often, you know, we'll talk to somebody, they'll say, oh, yeah, well, obviously I use a London lawyer for this work. And you're like, obviously. Well, you know, there are people up here who have equal, uh, brain power to that which we will find in London. But, um, as you say, you know, for firms, for legal firms to invest in creating media units that are more visible. Uh-huh. Needs that, uh, that work to be coming in. Because you certainly. It's going to be a really hard ask for any professional services firm to go and build that based on getting work out of London.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Although, because of the cost thing, you know, if you buy, if you, if you hire a London media lawyer, you're going to be paying a huge hourly rate.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, you could get the same quality of advice in the region for a lot cheaper. But it's the marketing effort to get

Speaker B: people to understand and convincing people that you go, but they're, I don't know, 800 quid an hour, they're 400 quid an hour. Oh, they must be better than the 800. It's like. Well, no, they just don't have their overheads. The ridiculousness of what's happening there. So I think that's a sort of a similar thing with, with my industry as well, which is. Yes, at the minute, without doubt, nearly all of the training facilities are in London. There are some more in Manchester now, there's some in Leeds, there's some, uh, I think there's. There's a really good school in Wales. But I'm talking like one there, one there, one there. Whereas in London there's a cluster. So of course, if you're a, uh, casting director or a director, of course, you're just going to be like, well, I could just visit one place and I could get like all of those done in one go. And it's, it's trying to find a way, like you say, to just, uh, you know that word London centric, but just trying to find a way to just bring everything and just stretch it out and say, look, we've all got stuff to offer. And I think even when I first started out, if you were an actor and you didn't live in London, it was a bit like. And m. I do think that's changed now. Yeah, I think people are just a lot less bothered about that. And I think as much as I hate zoom, auditions and self tapes can be tricky as well. That has been brilliant for people who don't live in London and who can't just jump on a tube and get to an audition. Like, that is a lifesaver. So I'm all for that because it's helped, um, other people.

Speaker C: For me, you know, you talked, you said, you know, unless you're a superstar, I think for a lot of people listening will be going, what's she talking about? She's a superstar. And there's this real sort of pride in the Northeast for, uh, folk who've done good but still have a. Have a. Have a, you know, an affinity to the region, I think, really, all our diabetes. Thank you, Jo, for being such a honest, authentic leader in your industry and being fearless in the way that you've approached the whole subjective grief and the way that you've talked today from a very, you know, a vulnerable position and a position of honesty. Um, I've really enjoyed our chat and I hope we'll have lots more of them in the future.

Speaker B: Me too. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you for asking me. It's, uh, it's been a pleasure. And it's. It's nice to, like I say, have those just conversations that mean something. That will stay with you. It'll certainly stay with me.

Speaker C: So thank you. Ditto. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to this episode of Fear Less, Do More, brought to you by Square One Law. If you found today's conversation inspiring or interesting, we've added a recommendation for what to listen to next that's either on the screen now or in the show notes. Take care and we'll see you next time.