The Inside Podcast (Ep. 10) | Shaping behaviors inside organizations - the key to a healthy company culture with Magor Csibi @Trend Consult Group

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hi everyone. This is, uh, Georgiana, and you're listening to the Insight podcast where people from various tech companies share their insights into what it's like to be a tech talent manager, a recruiter, or an employer branding manager. Today I'm talking to someone who is someone somewhat at the confluence of all these, um, areas I was just mentioning. Magor. Welcome. Uh, on our podcast today, your role is head of leadership and Organizational Culture Practice, a trend consult group. What does your work entail exactly? On a daily basis?

Speaker A: Uh, it does a lot of things, but mostly what, uh, my role should mean is that we are working with boards and we are working with leaders in order to help them to transform their culture inside the organization. This means, like a very complicated, very fancy stuff to do. But if you are thinking, what we are doing is modeling behaviors inside organization or helping leaders to model, uh, somehow behaviors. And this is what I think is very important because as individuals and as organizations, we have a lot of automatizations. A lot of our behaviors are, uh, routines. A lot of our behaviors are not the result of critical thinking or not even a result of thinking. So this is why it's so important to make ourselves aware. What are the patterns inside the organization and what are the patterns inside our own minds? Because otherwise we can live quite different lives as we imagine and we can think about ourselves quite differently as we are actually behaving and representing ourselves in the world.

Speaker B: Mhm, mhm, that's true. And I remember discussing this topic with you at some point, um, on one of our meetups to which you were a guest. And at that point we discussed about the difference between company culture fit and company culture ad. And you know, I'm a marketer, so, um, I'm not a specialist in hr. Is there a real difference between all these terms or is it all just noise, so to say?

Speaker A: I do think that we have the tendency in general in corporations or corporations have the tendency to invent a lot of words, because this way it means that we are always creating and always, uh, coming up with new solutions and new ideas. But if you are looking really into what is happening inside organizations 2000 years ago and today, I do think that the behaviors and the patterns are always the same. We are just learning to play with words. And I do think that it's very important, you know, uh, besides playing with roles and besides coming up with acronyms which many people do not understand and making ourselves, you know, to look very clever when we are standing next to other persons who doesn't understand the acronyms yeah, very important. When we are talking about culture, when we are talking about leadership, we are talking about organizations to be as simple as possible. I do think that we know all these noise, all these words are creating somehow a natural pollution, which means that we are not thinking on the relevant issues, but we are thinking about concepts that are somehow mesmerizing, uh, our imagination. And I do think that in the end there are very simple things or very, very clear things and we should focus on actually what happens with people, what are people thinking, how people are behaving. And if you are not looking to all these acronyms, you will see that the variations are not as big as we would imagine.

Speaker B: Mhm. Okay, that's comforting for me. It means I'm not totally lost. Um, what would you say, or actually, who would you say should take care of company culture and the brand of the employer? Marketing, human resources, management, all three of them.

Speaker A: I do think if we are talking about culture, the owner of the culture is always the leader of the organization. So if I hear, for instance, if I'm meeting with, um, the head of HR or the HR director, if I'm meeting with somebody from marketing and saying to me, come on, let's talk about culture, the leadership of the company is behind us. I always say, yes, I understand, but culture is like a waterfall. It's coming from the top and it's cascading down. So it's very important that the leader to be the owner of the whole process. It cannot be in any other way. And when we are talking about, uh, organizational culture, the biggest issues usually are the leaders who are not living the values of the company, or they are not leaving the aspirational values they are planning for themselves. And this way, no matter how much we will be working with an organization, it's always the working with the leader, the one which comes. And it's very funny, you know, because when I was leading our organization, I met with Adi, the founder of the company, and he said to me that I have a few solutions for your organization. He said to me, I can work with everybody's organization. Second, I can work with everybody in the organization and you. And the third option is to work only with you. I was like, okay, cut the consultant crap. Please tell me straightforward which is the best solution for me. M And he said, if I'm working with you, I don't need to work with anybody else. So it was a very, very diplomatic way of saying that the leader is the one determining the behavior of the people. He's the one Shaping the company culture first and foremost and everything else is somehow already fine tuning. If the leader is not behaving and not representing the values that the company or the organization is declaring, it's very, very hard to make the people to behave in a different way. And what I see in the corporate world is that branding is usually with the marketing department, which I don't think that it's very, very wrong because most of the time marketing is coming up with ideas how we want to be perceived by others.

Speaker B: Yep, I see.

Speaker A: If we are declaring values, how do we want to be perceived by others? We are not living or we are not expressing our values. And I think that the corporate branding, it's about what uh, do people in the organization say about our organization? No matter what you are saying in a fancy magazine or in a TV ad or whatever, on the walls of the company, people immediately say to anyone that this is not the value of our company. The value of our company is our day to day experience. This is why it's much more important to look at your people, ask your people how do they feel and then come up with values, not to come up with values which are totally non connected with the daily life of people in the company.

Speaker B: Do you believe in the power of survey or should you ask people just on a one to one basis what's, what's better?

Speaker A: I do think that culture is not something mythical. It's not something, you know, you feel it in the air, you step in into organization like you love and you feel it when it's there. Corporate culture can be measured. Corporate culture can be broken down to interns, to behaviors and we can say, you know, which are the most frequent behaviors of the people. And we can also improve those behaviors towards what are the desires of the company or what are the goals of the company. So I do think that it's somehow not an emotional thing, it's a very measurable thing. But also if the culture is right, then the emotions in the company are right. So I do think that emotions are somehow a very welcome benefit of harmony or of constructive culture. But again, um, it can be measured at any time. So I do believe that measuring is important, not necessarily by surveys. Surveys are one of the ways of measuring, but there are many ways of measuring this. And I do think that from time to time every company should check how the culture is or what are the behaviors or how people uh, feel in the company. You are creating scenarios in your head and you are searching for the clues to validate what you are thinking. Every Day.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So I always encourage leaders to find scientific ways somehow m to to substantiate their decisions when it comes, uh, to

Speaker B: people or their hunches, so to say, their feelings sometimes maybe can be, um, confirmed or denied.

Speaker A: There are always feelings. But feelings cause behaviors.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: If you find what are the behaviors, desired behaviors. Because if you know, what do you want from your organization, you know, what are the behaviors which, which put you closer to the, to the goals? You know, also what are the toxic behaviors which are making m, uh, your, your goal achievement a bit harder.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And if you real definitions of what are the desired behaviors and what are the toxic behaviors, from there it's very easy to see how am I causing the emotions? How am I causing those, those behaviors? What are the main drivers of the behaviors? And this way you can intervene in a very calculated way into the decisions. But you know, human beings are emotional beings and always when we are saying to ourselves that we are taking rational decisions, this is a narrative that we are telling to ourselves. We are always making up our mind based on our emotions, based on what we are feeling. And then we create a rationale narrative around. So this is why everything is about emotions. But again, emotions can be measured and can be enabled.

Speaker B: Okay. People don't change jobs, they change managers and leaders. Three things leadership can do in order to facilitate company culture Adding

Speaker A: I do think that one of the first things is to make it very, very clear to yourself as a leader, what is the mission and what is the vision of the company? It's very, very important because many times I see small companies and big companies as well. Many times I see leaders which do not have their own story. Right. They do not know what exactly is the story of the company. Why are we doing what we are doing every day? This is very important because if you do not know your own story, it's very hard to motivate people, especially younger people, because younger people are not driven by financial gains or bonuses. They are mainly driven by mission that are mainly driven by things they believe in. If you do not offer to people something to believe in, it's very hard to create a culture, first of all. Second, you need to determine what kind of culture do you want? What is the culture of your organization which are enabling the behaviors which takes your organization closer to your goals? Many times we imagine how do we want people to be in the company. But it's not based on what we want to achieve. It's based on our own comfort zones as leaders. And this is why it's very important, you know, to make a clear distinction. Sometimes a leader can be very uncomfortable with some m behaviors and still build a very successful organization. For a big part of my life, I was very uncomfortable giving straightforward anonymous feedback and receiving straightforward anonymous feedback. I was really comfortable of giving and receiving a difficult feedback or difficult conversation. I was avoiding difficult conversations. For you as a leader, it might be very uncomfortable to have culture based on difficult conversations, but also for the organization and for the culture can be very beneficial. So this is why you need to clarify very, very clearly what are or how my culture needs to look like in order to achieve the results. And then what are my values? Are my values in line with the corporation or with the organization? Many, many times we are sitting in the wrong and telling to ourselves that I should enjoy what am I doing, but I'm not. If you are not enjoying yourself in a position or in the job, most probably you have a value disalignment. The things that you really believe inside you are not the things the company believes in. And this is why you have a cultural attention every day. There is a difference between aspirational values and the real values. And then it's very hard for you to motivate yourself. And when it's very hard for you to motivate yourself, you cannot motivate people. The most important thing for a leader, the absolute most important, is walking the talk. Nobody. Nobody. There is no leader in the world who can bullshit everybody.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we take.

Speaker B: I agree.

Speaker A: We are somehow displaying some behaviors and everybody believes that we are in a certain way. But everybody knows when somebody is pretending. Nobody says it, but, uh, everybody knows,

Speaker B: but they know it.

Speaker A: You are pretending. And you build your life and your career around pretending who you are. You will be unhappy, the organization will be unhappy, and in the end, nobody will learn what are the behaviors that we actually want to have together. Because somehow the basic human instinct is to fit in.

Speaker B: I agree.

Speaker A: Don't search for fitting in, search for belonging. Search for an organization, for a place for a leader or for people who doesn't need to behave, doesn't, uh, need to force themselves into patterns in order to be able to be part of the organization. If you find a place of belonging, stay there.

Speaker B: Yep, that's true. I totally agree. Um, in your role as a consultant, I think you've probably come across various company cultures and management styles, management mistakes. What is the one thing you'll never forget that you would list as a definitive no when it comes to company culture?

Speaker A: I think one of the most toxic things What I have experienced, and I'm talking right now as a human, you know, to have managers or leaders who are pretending to care about you, but in fact they are not. Because it creates such a confusing mess in your head. And you are always wondering, am I doing something wrong? Am I enough? Am I good? And, ah, you never know because somehow the behavior, the displays of behavior are always somehow positive and friendly. But you feel that something is not right. You feel that there is no real interest. I do think that every human being, regardless if we are in our personal lives or in organizations, we want to be noticed. We want to be acknowledged, want to

Speaker B: be, in a way, loved, appreciated.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, appreciate it. And when this is missing, you know, when you have a manager or a leader who is pretending to doing all these things, but he knows, and I know that, uh, it's just pretending and there is no real care. It's very, very disturbing. And I have seen it in different aspects. Like, I can say I had leaders or I have seen leaders. I worked with leaders who were really psychopathic. So I knew that they do not have any kind of understanding of basic emotions. And it was easier for me to work with them than with the people who are pretending that they have the emotions that they were pretending they do care, but in fact they were not caring because they were doing only what they thought that it's expected of them.

Speaker B: Mm.

Speaker A: So. So all these things, I do think that pretending in general is destroying many, many relationships. It's, it's, it's making harder for organizations to achieve the goals. So when we talk about authenticity, authenticity is not something, you know, fluffy or something, uh, you know, which, which you write, read in the books about. Yeah, it's the real thing.

Speaker B: You know, sometimes, I agree,

Speaker A: sometimes authenticity, sometimes people can be awkward. Sometimes people can be a little bit weird. Sometimes people can be a little bit perceived as aggressive or inadequate or so on. But this is the whole idea, you know, when you learn to see the full dimension of a human being, then you start to create real relationships. And we live organizations. We are saying to ourselves that we are in organizations because we need to leave and we need that paycheck and so on and so on. We are always part of different organizations because we want to have our own tribe. And your own tribe is not accepting you. If your own tribe is not giving you the feeling of comfort, then you will have a hard day. And, you know, a good part of my life, I was totally convinced that there is no such thing as ideal workplace. I shouldn't be Happy because working is working and living is not too much. And this is the narrative that you are telling yourselves or yourself when you haven't seen a better way of doing it. When you see for the first time a culture which works, then you are sitting down and saying, whoa, and I was wasting my whole time. I was wasting my life pretending, when the real deal is always somewhere out, that more and more organizations are getting tired of pretending and starting to encourage authenticity, especially the newer, smaller, and more agile organizations who are growing faster every day.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. To change the direction a little bit, what has been a very influential movie for you?

Speaker A: Uh, one of my favorite movies is Any Given Sunday. I have seen it, like, I think 15, 20 times. I just love the whole idea. I always. I never understood why, but I loved the thing when the leader is always telling himself that he knows it better. And you see a whole transformation during the movie when, at the very end, he changed his ways. So he realizes that he needs to grow. He realizes that he cannot know everything. He realizes that his ways are not necessarily always the best, and he makes a radical change in his life. And I do think that this should be the key, uh, of life and the key of any kind of career to realize you never have the right answer. You should always be, uh, open to search and to learn new things. Because the moment you think that you have the answer, that's the definite moment that you really don't have the answer. So when you start to think about yourself that you hold the answer in your hand, it means that we stopped believing in the learning process. You start growing. And then you should put some real uncomfortable questions to yourself. Uh, and this is what the movie shows us, you know, refusing all the way to change, always saying that, I know it better, I want more. I already displayed all my qualities, so I should receive credit for my past. Many people are saying around us that I do so many things in my life that nobody should question me. And we are forgetting that our behaviors at any moment are shaping how people feel and think towards ourselves. It's not enough that you were a very nice guy for five years and now for one year, you can be a journey, huh? In life. It's not like that. If you really want to be a nice guy, you always have to be a nice guy, and you always have to behave in a certain way. And this is the continuous process. But you don't have to be a nice guy. So it's not a request or an expectation that you always need to be a nice guy. You just Be yourself if possible. And if you don't know, and many people I see do not know how they are, then you should search. And you should search. The sooner it means you go to therapy. I'm going to therapy and I'm proud of it. And I, I learn a lot, uh, in therapy sessions. I also do coaching, I do reading, I do all the things in order to find more about myself. Because sometimes we are so focused on the world around us that actually we forget to spend time with ourselves. Look a bit. What do we like? What do we don't like? And I do think that it can be very traumatic when you are 60 or 70 to put yourself the question, who am I? What do I like? For sure you don't have the answers because you know, when you have little time left, it's very hard, uh, to say, okay, from now on, I will start living, I will start to explore myself.

Speaker B: True. Okay, um, that brings me to my last question actually. Um, and here goes. Everything is cultural. So then company culture is probably as well. What do you think is the one constant element that each company, regardless of where they are located, could take into consideration for a harmonious corporate climate? Really curious about that.

Speaker A: I do think that harmony is not necessarily part of every culture. Culture means. So if anybody, if an organization defines the culture, it means the set of behavior which will help the company to achieve the results, uh, which they desire. Sometimes this can be an uncomfortable setting. So for instance, in a company when everybody expects from you to learn all the time, it's not all the time harmonious, it's not all the time. Sometimes you want to do other things or sometimes it can be uncomfortable. But why that climate is the one which can be harmonious. Culture can be healthy. And the healthy culture means that the behaviors of the people in the company which help the company to achieve the results. And I do think that what everybody, every organization, every leader needs to understand. Even if you are totally not interested, even if you are not investing, culture is always there. If you are ignoring it, then the culture of your company, the behaviors in your company will be shapen by random forces.

Speaker B: I agree.

Speaker A: But if you are accepting that you actually have an influence, or you can have an influence over your culture, then you can measure it, you can define it how I would want to have a culture, and then you can strive for it. And this is the most frequent thing what I see, because we do not like our, uh, culture and we do not like our climate, which are two different things, but they can connect it. We tend to not to look there because it's uncomfortable. You know, as a leader, you see that you do not have a good culture, you see that you do not have a good climate. And you choose to look in different in other ways. You look at the results, you look at angles, you look at charts, you look at Excel tables. But in the end, behaviors will determine the results of an organization. It's not the chance how people will behave will decide if the company is successful or not.

Speaker B: Or not.

Speaker A: And the longer you don't pay attention to the behavior of the people, uh, the longer you will wait for the results. And actually if I look at the numbers, modern day leaders and managers do not have the time to look at the behaviors. They are burying themselves in strategic overviews, they bury themselves in mails, in interactions, in outside representation, and so on and so on. So the big problem with this is if you do not know how the people are really behaving in your company, you will make plans not for the behaviors, but, but for the imagined behaviors.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And if you imagine what people are doing around you and you will make plans for that imagined behavior from the beginning, it will be wrong.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you know, if you, if your plan from the beginning is wrong, then the achievement will be even less. And this means until you do understand what people are doing in your organization, this should be your focus. What are my people doing every day? And you know, I had a really long period in my life as a top manager when I was wondering every day what are my people doing? But I didn't have the courage, I didn't have the maturity to actually go and ask. Involved, you know, be part of the, of the, of the, of the. Of the, uh, um, um, Citadel, or be. Be part of my tribe. And I was always imagining, okay, my marketing manager did this because she does. Doesn't like me or, or whatever. All kind of narratives and always the narrative in your hand. It's always more negative than the most negative scenario. What can happen in real life? Uh, so our brain is always very capable of coming up with drama.

Speaker B: Totally agree.

Speaker A: The drama in your head is go there and ask, make a conversation, be interested, be open. And that's simple from my point of view. After you decide that this is what you want to do.

Speaker B: Mhm. Which is good advice to apply in every relationship, right?

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Just go ask.

Speaker A: I read a lot of books about relationships and most of the books are saying you just need to sit there and listen. And I never understood, I said this is stupid advice. I'm just sitting there and Listening and not saying anything. There is no value in it until you start to practice it. And then you realize that most of the people do not want your solution. Most of the people want your interest.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: If they see that you are, you have a genuine interest, you are looking, you are acknowledging them, you are seeing them. You don't need to solve everybody else's problems.

Speaker B: You cannot do it anyway.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And this is why many people are avoiding real conversations. Because in the rest they are imagining if, if, if somebody will tell me the problems that they are confronting with, I will need to carry that problem. That's not the case. That's not the case. Most of the people are independent. They are able to figure out their own problems, but they still need someone to listen to them.

Speaker B: I agree. Well, yes, I think there's a lot that can be said about it, but, um, unfortunately our podcast has reached an end. Thank you very much, Magor, for, uh, your input, everyone. I strongly suggest that you follow him on LinkedIn. There's a lot of useful information that he shares on his profile. Congratulations for that. I really think that you have a way of stating things and of, um, providing information that's really to everyone's understanding. And I think you're doing a lot and, um, in shaping, um, people's minds in a way, so to say, when it comes to company culture. I know I'm learning a lot from you. So, uh, I'm definitely a true fan. Once again, thank you for joining me and, uh, everyone, you can find us on Spotify and on Apple Podcasts. Until next time. Talk to you soon. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Inside podcast. You can find our podcast on Spotify and on Apple Music. And if you want to read more on employer branding or digital marketing content in general, go to beaglecat.com or employerbranding tech. See you next time. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Inside podcast. You can find our podcast on Spotify and on Apple Music. And if you want to read more on employer branding or digital marketing content in general, go to beaglecat.com or employerbranding tech. See you next time. Bye.