From DTC to B2B: How Moyu Scaled to €1.5M by Shifting Its Sales Strategy with Roel Schatorjé

Speaker A: When you start a business, a lot of things just in general go wrong, right? So by eliminating mistakes that are being made, I think that saves you about 50% of the time.

Speaker B: It's the E Commerce Master Plan podcast here to help you solve your marketing problems and grow your E commerce business. Cutting through the hype to bring you inspiration and advice from the E commerce sector and beyond. Here's your host, Chloe Thomas.

Speaker C: Hello and um, welcome. It's great to have you here. Thank you for hitting play and choosing to listen to one of our inspiring guests. I love to start the show occasionally with a little shout out to the listeners who are kind enough to take the time to post a review of the show. And I've got one of those for you today. Huge thanks to um, Drummer Boyd, whoever you may be for putting a lovely review of us on Apple Podcasts. And um, you said we are an insightful podcast. Great listen and always cover some super interesting topics. As a growth lead at a D2C brand, Chloe is a knowledgeable and friendly host. Thank you very much Drummer Boyd. Really appreciate it. Um, um, if you would like a shout out at the start of an episode, then head to ecmp.inforeview to find out how to leave us a review and maybe I'll be reading out your review next time. In this episode we're doing another past guest catch up as part of our 10 years of podcasting celebration. This one is from three years ago, fairly recent.

Speaker D: Um, and it's a company who make a stone paper reusable notepad who are on a very big old eco mission. We don't specifically talk about that because we spend a lot of time talking about the product and the mission in the first episode. Episode 450. In this episode we are talking about how the business has been, um, developing since that first um, chat over three years ago. Uh, we will be going into how they've gone big into B2B sales, both into physical retail and into the personalized swag and gifts market in the corporate space too. And I'll be pressing rule for some nitty gritty insights into how they're making that work, what impact it's had on the team, and also how they go about managing their overseas sales agents. Lots of detail coming up for you if you're in that arena.

Speaker C: Please listen to the end of the

Speaker D: show so you don't miss out on my guest top tips and my own take on this episode.

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Speaker D: And now to introduce our special guest, Rule Chitauje is the founder of Moyu, sellers of erasable stone paper notebooks designed to reduce single use paper and reforest the planet. Founded in 2019, they now sell via wholesale and their shopify store in total sales are around 1.5 million euros a year. Hello, Roel.

Speaker B: Hey.

Speaker A: Good to be back. Good to be back.

Speaker D: Very cool to have you back on the podcast. And I, anyone who's seen me at an event will have seen me diligently carrying one of your notepads, which is still getting cleaned and reused very happily. So it's very cool to have you back on the show. It's been three years. What have you been up to?

Speaker A: A lot. A lot, a lot. So, um, I think a few things. So we kind of noticed, uh, I think one big thing is that, um, from having the web shop and the E commerce sales, we noticed that we got more and more wholesale B2B deals. So our focus shifted there a bit. So we do much more business to business now than just e commerce. So that's nice. We rolled out in the Netherlands, uh, in a lot of retail stores. So we're in about 150 stores now. So that's also really cool. So people can actually physically buy us in stores. And we're currently working on two cool new things which is, uh, developing a product for primary school kids so that they can actually start their school with one notebook and leave it with the same. And lastly, um, we're working on reusable packaging. Um, there's new laws coming up. The PPWR and a lot of companies are looking into reusable packaging now and I think our materials really good for that. So, uh, with that we are, yeah, developing boxes that can be reused.

Speaker C: So I mean, we'll drill into some of those in a minute. But with so many things going on, how do you decide what to focus on and what to pursue? Because I'm guessing that you've had a Whole load of ideas other than those four. So how did you decide what to pursue? And then day to day, how do you decide what to focus on?

Speaker A: So all the things that you just heard are cool projects, right? So, but most of them are not really generating revenue yet, especially the last two. So my day to day is just 90% focused on running the business as is. So I really try to uh, have like focus hours every morning, uh, let's say from 8 to 1, where I just decide, okay, it's going to be like a sales hour, sales hours, or project X or project Y. And then the other projects kind of develop along the way by meeting new people, meeting interesting clients whatsoever. And then I just here and there bring these things up if I feel there's an interest, then I just keep on working on those things. Uh, and then especially for schools and boxes, we've been doing that for the last like one and a half, two years now. And we just got granted a subsidy to have a bit more focus on these projects so that we can actually invest in it and continue developing these.

Speaker C: Got it.

Speaker D: That makes so much sense. Thank you. So what does the team look like now in the business as you made these diversions away from more of the D2C sales into the B2B sales, did that make a lot of difference to the team?

Speaker A: I think last time we chatted we actually had 10. Uh, we were with 10 people, uh, we're with four now. So we scaled down the team and we focused a lot on um, optimizing and efficiency. So every time someone left, we kind of sat with the team and the management. Like, is this something that we can just pick up internally if we can do it more efficiently? So over the last three years we kind of did that. And then a part of our team were people that worked on internationalization, which we had in our own team, on our own loan list, on our own, uh, payroll. And we changed that into agents. So we still have five agents working abroad, but they work more on a commission base rather than, uh, being on our own payroll. So there's still, uh, in total about 10 people working for Mojo, but our core team is just four people and

Speaker C: has that driving of efficiency to lower the number of head office team. Has that involved any AI or has it more been clearer decisions and automations and relying more on tech?

Speaker A: Obviously we follow AI, but it's. That hasn't been the reason to be able to work with less people yet. It helps here and there. Right? So I mean, we've been doing stuff for the last three years with it. But it's not because that we have developed tool A with AI and therefore we could not kind of like not have less people. So it's mainly, I think when you start a business, you kind of, uh, a lot of things just in general go wrong. Right. So by eliminating mistakes that are being made, I think that saves you about 50% of the time. So for us, a big one was a business requests a quote and then they go into the whole quoting process, design process, production process towards our warehouse and shipping and uh, eliminating as many mistakes as possible there. I think that saved so much time because, uh, the mistakes just give a lot of double work. And also. So that's one part, and the other one is I think we were planting a lot of seeds everywhere, a lot of outreach everywhere. And then at one point we also looked a bit like we had a person that was doing just retail that was reaching out to a lot of store owners. And then at one point we got a contract with a big supplier in the Netherlands. And uh, they kind of hundred stores in the Netherlands. So then we thought, okay, well that's maybe like enough, let's say, uh, stores for that. Then we just kind of work with them and the rest is just inbound. So instead of going out to stores, we just work with this supplier and then any inbound. So these kind of things helped us to have less people in the team.

Speaker C: I love that. So like a mixture of strategic decisions, general business evolution, and then just, let's just stop making the mistake at the beginning of the process, which, you know, 30 seconds at the beginning of the process can save three hours at the end of it, can't it? So, um, I love that. And the B2B and the retail product, presumably the retail stores, to them you're selling the same product as you have on the website. What's the B2B side of it are you selling? Because I could see it could be kind of more of the retail element. They come on, they buy 20, 30 of whatever existing notebook. But is it more design and customization as you were just alluding to for that sector?

Speaker A: Exactly. So companies buy our product a lot for gifts, so on events for employees, for relations. Companies want to come across as they are caring for the planet and therefore they choose a gift that's also sustainable. Uh, so what we've done is we were already doing that when we spoke last time. What we've optimized that is we can now deliver your own notebook with your own cover within five working days. So then you have your fully customized own notebook within a few working days. So you just send us the design and we make it for you and then you can hand them out to whoever. Uh, companies love that. So to kind of have their branding on, um, a product that just lasts very long so then the brand is seen for a very long time and at the same time it's a sustainable product. So if you give it to someone then um, yeah, you come across as uh, a company that cares.

Speaker D: And it's still got the novelty factor, hasn't it? I mean I've been ever since our last call, our ah, last recording for the, for the podcast, I've been keeping my eye out for Moyu notebooks in the wild, you know, and I'd go to some of the, some of the big trade shows in the UK and I haven't yet seen one. So there's, but there's, but there's, you know, the standard notebook everywhere and there's, the water bottles are everywhere, you know, and it's like there's still definitely a novelty to your product within that gift giving and that swag world.

Speaker C: I think definitely.

Speaker A: We actually uh, started with one agent a year ago in the UK and another one, uh, two months ago. So hopefully in the coming years there will be much uh, more uh, visibility of our product.

Speaker D: Undoubtedly. But anyone listening who's plotting their next customer giveaway, you know, uh, where the uh, innovative product is, get in contact with Raul.

Speaker C: Do that.

Speaker A: Do that, yeah.

Speaker D: So that B2B personalized notebook piece, are you doing that purely offline with the human relationship or is it via a B2B website?

Speaker A: We actually launched last week a new B2B website. I think what we try to do is be super open and transparent and have everything as much as possible on the website so that whoever wants to have their own notebooks, they should be able to find everything from prices, delivery times, how to make the design. So that part is online. I do see that a lot of sales. Well, we say we have a B2C2B business model. So we sell first to a consumer. A lot of them fall in love with the product and then they bring it to their office. Then someone, either them or someone sees it and then they say, oh, this should be great for our colleagues. And then through that they order. And because we knew that, uh, we noticed that the moment people have the notebook in their hand, they actually understand how cool it is. We also start doing more fairs. So like events where you in the end then physically meet people and have A chat and can tell your story. Or we've scaled up outbound email campaigns which we're testing, so I'm not sure how successful they are. But the only goal with that, uh, is that we are kind of like very generous with sampling because we just want to have the notebook in the hands of the persons that could potentially buy it. So by that we're sampling a lot. So it is online. But I think in the end it's nice that it's a physical product so offline can work as well.

Speaker C: Got you. So it is possible to buy a B2B order via the website, but you're not forcing people to take that route because there's still a lot of opportunity in the personal relationship and the physical product sampling.

Speaker A: Definitely. Yeah. And I honestly prefer to also build a little relationship with someone. Not everyone is interested in it, but I like the human aspect of doing business as well.

Speaker D: Yeah. And it's often so important in building those relationships, those bigger bulk orders and everything as well. So it totally makes sense. Um, you also mentioned that you are working on uh, some reusable packaging. So is that reusable packaging to send out your products or is this another use for the stone paper product?

Speaker A: It is stone paper but we make a corrugated material out of it. And it's not like our uh, notebook erasable. But the advantage of the material is that it is water resistant and tear resistant. So you kind of get a corrugated box. But it's much stronger than a regular box and therefore ideal to be used in a reusable system. So it can be either a warehouse supplying their store, like a movement that goes from A to B, from M B to A, uh, and using a box that can be reusable there or as we do it now we are mainly focusing on uh, creating e commerce packaging. So our notebook can now be bought in the checkout. You can click on uh, uh, reusable packaging if you're in the right zip code. So in the UK probably not, but in the Netherlands if you're in the right zip code, choose reusable packaging. You pay a deposit and once you receive the packaging you hand it back in your closest bookstore. They will pull them and whenever they have like 10 they come back to us. That's the system.

Speaker C: Oh wow. So it's even on the um, direct to consumer side it can become reusable because you've got these hubs for collecting it set up.

Speaker A: Exactly, yeah. So we do both for businesses. We try to co create the packaging that they need and for Consumers, we use our own packaging. And there's a system that's been built in the Netherlands, it's called Boxo. And they laid the whole logistics whatsoever for any reusable packaging.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: So you haven't had to set up the bringback piece that you're uh, piggybacking on the system set up box. Is it Boxo?

Speaker A: It's called Poxo. So it's the other way around. So we are kind of like introducing this packaging that we have in their system for any web shop to use. So it's not only our webshop, but any webshop can say like, we'd like to have 50 of your stone packaging in stock. And then whenever they use them, they just pay us a pay per use.

Speaker C: Oh, uh, got you. Very clever. I can imagine a lot of the, you know, starting with the eco brands, that's going to very quickly gain some traction for you.

Speaker A: Definitely, definitely. And the cool thing is, or cool. The interesting about the packaging is that no one wants their packaging. Right. So as an E Commerce owner, the last thing you think about is like, uh, uh, uh, now I need to ship it. Okay. I need to buy some boxes. And then you buy them and then it's literally on there for a few hours and then it arrives at a customer and they also don't want the box so they unpack it and throw it away again. So this very short lifetime actually. So it's super cool. It's a system M that we set up to rethink to make it reusable.

Speaker C: And if I think about most of the boxes I get goods in at home, they're cardboard, but most of them would be completely reusable. So they haven't had the rain impact. And of course your product is rainproof or water resistant as well. So it's going to have a longer longevity. Uh, it's a huge opportunity there.

Speaker A: It's both. So it's both. So one of them is, I think a cardboard box could also be used two or three times, but ours I think like 15 times. So that's one. But for the cardboard box, there's also not really a system in place. So theoretically it could be used, but it's perceived as single use. So people always throw it away.

Speaker C: And you've got the sizing complexity with cardboard boxes seem to come in all the sizes under the sun, whereas you're in more control of what sizes get produced. So it becomes easier, I would suspect, on that side.

Speaker D: So, um, last time the global expansion that you mentioned was Very high on your agenda. And you were doing that all in house. As you've just mentioned, you're now doing it um, externally with an agent system who are commission based. Is that because you're less interested in

Speaker C: global expansion or just because it's a

Speaker D: better way to do it?

Speaker A: It's a more sustainable way to do it. So we are as interested as we were. However, the burn rate was so high and I think getting initial traction in a new country just takes several years for a brand to get some recognition and people to know the product. And uh, we were just spending so much money on it that we kind of took a step back and we said what are actually the things that really are adding a lot of value to the international expansion and which don't. And let me give you an example. For instance, we had a full German website, a full French website, so we needed translators for that. But a website is not a landing page. We had I think 150 pages or something, so those need all be translated and then you update something here and everything needs to be translated. So just such a simple thing already costs so much money and time. So we now said let's just build super nice landing pages per country in their native tongue. So we have a German landing page that's much longer than uh, our normal homepage that has much more information but it kind of gives the whole story about the product and the personalization and the Christmas gifts and these kind of things. And now we only have that website in German. So whoever only speaks German can still get the whole story of this. But whenever you want to buy something then you just click on buy and then you come in the web shop. And that's just English, right? We kind of made the assumption that people can buy a product in English. And then we had um, a German guy working in the Netherlands and we had a German agent, uh, that got a retainer fee as well. Quite a high one uh, because we want him fully involved in the team. And now we just have an agent in Germany that kind of works on his own terms and gets a big commission on the sales that he does. So it doesn't, let's say we're not spending money before we get also deals in. That's what we're trying now. And we did the same for Sweden, the same for uk. I'm very much open to find more agents in different countries that uh, would love to sell us. So I can't say it's more effective but I uh, do think it's more. We can keep this space for years with looking at cash flow and then I hope to at one point see a bit more traction in a country and then we can reinvest that money in that country and kind of build it from there. That would be the model, um, that we're trying now.

Speaker C: Yes. It's kind of like having a number of irons in the fire, if that phrase makes sense to you. You've got all these countries that just kind of ticking along, not causing you

Speaker D: too many cash flow issues.

Speaker C: But there's nice business there, and if one of them takes off, you'll know where to go and invest the extra overhead. You were talking there about agents being on commission and then some of them having retainers as well. You know, there's two different models that, that you can undertake. Do you think the. Because I always think, uh, employing an agent in another country is, is a bit chicken and egg. I seem to be analogy central today.

Speaker D: Cliche central. Sorry, everybody.

Speaker C: But it is a little bit because it kind of like you're putting them on commission, but they won't know how well it's going to work until they test the market. But they're not yet incentivized to you,

Speaker D: you know, to promote you ahead of

Speaker C: anyone else they're representing because they haven't

Speaker D: yet seen how well it converts or

Speaker C: what size cash it can bring into them. So therefore the retainer seems good in

Speaker D: the early days, but then if it

Speaker C: gets better, then do you want, if it's really driving, do you want to incentivize them to spend all their time on you? So for you is like the retainer plus commission versus the commission only model. Is that about life cycle time in the marketplace, stage of life cycle in the marketplace, or is it more of a, uh, strategic business or does it just depend on the individual agent? There you go. 20 questions in about one there for you all.

Speaker A: Good luck. Well, so some of the agents that we have, they kind of have, um, they work, let's say four days a week somewhere, right. So then they have an extra day and that they want to do something else and want to develop something for themselves. That's in Sweden and one in the uk and that's quite ideal for us because they're not investing too much time, but they're testing the waters. And then if traction comes, they could at one point decide, okay, um, I'm going to do this full time. And then the agent that we had in Germany and uk, both of them were like senior, and both of them also brought a Big network. And they kind of said like, well if I'm going to open my network, I would want a retainer, retainer fee. So uh, for both of them, we agreed to start with a retainer fee and then um, revisit the contract once in a while because preferably you get to the point where we give them a bit higher commission and no retainer and then that would be higher than uh, just a retainer. But yeah, I also understand that people have been working in the business for 20 years that they're not going to do outreach for you for a year or without anything in return because they would.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So it depends a bit on the person. Uh, depends a bit on the person. And sometimes for us it's also hard to pay retainer fees because we're kind of, we're not really controlling what the agent does because they kind of work for themselves. So if we pay the higher the retainer fee is, the more we demand from the person. So if we pay 3 uh, 4k per month then we also demand that we want you 40 hours per week. We expect this outreach, we expect XYZ. Uh, so that's sometimes agents also don't like that and they also rather have a bit lower retainer fee and a bit more flexibility.

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Speaker B: It's time for the top tips round.

Speaker C: Okay, I love this section because it gives me and our listeners some really quick ideas for taking our businesses to the next level rule. Are you ready for the top tips?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: Okay. The book Top Tip.

Speaker C: If everyone listening to this podcast agreed

Speaker D: to take Friday off and read a book to make their business better, which book would you recommend?

Speaker A: I read this summer the book Designing Regenerative Cultures. It was an amazing book. I don't know if you know it. It's about. Not about designing a sustainable product, but it's about designing a sustainable company. So it's like system thinking. Sustainability is not enough. We should build companies that are making the planet better and not less worse. That's what the book is about. Super inspiring.

Speaker C: Oh, it sounds great. I love sustainability and I love systems. So, um, sounds perfect. I'll just have to go and have a at this one. That one after this. The traffic Top tip. Which marketing method do you either prize above all others or think doesn't get

Speaker D: the press it deserves?

Speaker A: I wrote down that I was searching, so I really see traffic changing. Back in the days, we could do like, advertisement. That was like, just put in money and let's go. We're doing a lot of, uh, outreach through LinkedIn and mail campaigns at this point already for like a year. And that was a bit successful, but. But now I also see my. If I look at my own mailbox and LinkedIn, I'm just being overloaded with these messages. So I feel everyone is doing it and it's also becoming a bit annoying. So more and more I have the feeling that real human sales, physical traffic, whatsoever could become more important over the coming years. That's my assumption.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's an interesting time to be trying to work out the perfect traffic option. And yeah, um, I totally get where you're coming from with that. Okay. Tool Top tip. Maybe a collaboration tool, a social media plugin, a phone app, or just a way of working. Is there a cool little tool you use that makes you and your team more efficient from day to day?

Speaker A: I could plug my own product. Right. Honestly, I think it's super valuable to once in a while take a notebook and just write. Our notebook has a to do list and a planner, these kind of things in them. So to fill, to write down the things that you want to do, erase them once you're done, or if you want to be creative, then take a piece of paper and write in it. So I think instead of tech tools, get, uh, a reusable notebook or a notebook in general, just write sometimes.

Speaker C: Yeah. So good to get away from the screens and actually physically interact with your thinking. Yeah, love that, um, idea. Carbon top tip. Your favorite way to reduce the carbon footprint of an E commerce store, please.

Speaker A: Reusable packaging. I think that's going to be an amazing solution and honestly, I think there's a lot to win for E, uh, commerce businesses. Right. So if we get to the point where every repackaging that will be shipped is going to be reusable, that's going to be amazing. So I think the product that we launched, the Stonepacker, that would be a great solution to, uh, reduce the carbon footprint.

Speaker D: Yes. Such a cool, um, system. Not one I've seen all the tech and the infrastructure that you were talking about. Not one I've seen yet in the uk, but it can only be. We've got a few companies who do it themselves, uh, veg box deliveries and that who are coming around every week anyway. But I've not yet seen anyone doing it on a larger scale in the uk. If I've got that wrong, anyone listening, let me know. I'd love to know who is doing it. Um, but yes, it's definitely got to be where we're heading, I suspect in our world. Um, Rule, we say goodbye. Could you please let the listeners know where they can find you, your notebooks, your packaging, your personalized notebooks, um, on the web and social media, please.

Speaker A: This is www.moju and moju is m m o y u dot roxfromstone. So mojo rocks. Uh, that's our website. And then there like in the header, there's like business and personalized. These kind of things should be easy to find. The stonepackers or the packaging solution is also on that landing page, on that page somewhere. So it can be found there or just reach out to me and I'm happy to chat about it. Uh, and then all the socials. Right. So you can find us on LinkedIn and Instagram and these kind of things.

Speaker D: Awesome. Well, it's been lovely getting to catch up with you again and very exciting to hear how your business is developing. So thanks so much for being on the show.

Speaker A: Same, same. Let's do this again in three years and see how the packaging is developing.

Speaker C: Yes, let's.

Speaker D: Great plan. Thank you, Roel.

Speaker A: Cool.

Speaker C: Great to get to catch up with Rule there and find out what they're up to now at Moyu and how the business is developing. And absolutely fascinating to see how they are still doing the D2C but now also selling into retail, physical retail chains, and then also doing great with their, uh, personalized bulk sales to businesses for client gifts, staff gifts, and so on and so forth. Fascinating stuff. Hopefully lots of practical tips there for those of you on the similar journey. You can get your hands on the notes from this episode, including the top tips and links to what we talked about by heading over to ecommercemasterplan.com you can also use our direct to episode short links. Just put ecmp um.info the number of this episode into the URL bar and you'll be redirected straight to the right page when you get to the website. You can also add uh yourself to my email list and then you won't miss out on any of the things I share to help you improve your business. If you like this episode, then find out more about where Moyu came from in my first chat with Rule, which is episode 450. And if you want more about great people doing awesome things in the sustainability space, then ECMP um.infob corp will take you to the page on the website

Speaker D: where we list all our B Corp people.

Speaker C: Um, thank you for tuning into this and every episode that you do of the Ecommerce Master Plan Podcast. I bring you a new interview every week because I want to inspire and help you to succeed and thrive with your business, including encouraging businesses and consumers alike to make more sustainable buying decisions. So if you know someone this show can help, please tell them to listen to the Ecommerce Master Plan Podcast.

Speaker D: I hope you have a brilliant week and don't forget to keep optimizing.

Speaker B: Thank you for listening to the E Commerce Master Plan Podcast. Find out more@ecommercemasterplan.com podcast.

Speaker E: Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, dog hvac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and uh, 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-granger click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.