The Hidden Side of Remodeling with Rodger Enters

Hello and welcome to Designer Discussions with Jason and Miriam. Today we're joined by Roger Enters, and we're going to talk about the hidden side of remodeling, engineering, collaboration, and building better projects. Welcome to Designer Discussions Podcast with Miriam and Jason. Tune in each week where we discuss marketing, PR, and business advice for design professionals.

Awesome. Well, welcome, Roger, to our podcast. Um, and in the interest of full disclosure, um, Roger is my partner and we live together. So we are I was gonna ask that because we y'all are in the same place.

I was gonna say normally we don't have the other person that we're interviewing in the same. I was I was gonna go upstairs with and open up my computer just to make it look a little we figured we'd be completely um completely open. Yeah, just to let all the listeners know, we only have a small percent that actually watch the YouTube. So anybody listening, this is uh for you.

Yes, exactly. So uh yeah, no, we're excited to have you on because this is the first time we've never had a structural engineer on the program. And it it it'll be really interesting to kind of see how the different discipline disciplines interact. And Roger's also here to talk a little bit about the benefits of being part of um professional trade um organization.

So we'll get into all of that. But Roger, first tell us a little bit about your business and what epong engineering, which is the name of your company, actually does. So well, thank you for for having me on. This is this is gonna be a lot of fun.

Um, so um epong engineering is a structural engineering uh consulting firm. Uh we are just uh in our 10th year, so have just uh just hit our 10th anniversary uh a couple of weeks ago, so that's exciting. Um and we do uh in in this context, we do residential um structural engineering consulting. We do also some commercial and um industrial uh engineering consulting.

But um, so that is that's the kind of core of what we do. Yeah, so a lot of our listeners um definitely have worked with people in your capacity, and probably a lot of them would like to have somebody available. Yeah. Yes, like you because it's hard to find a structural engineer for residential projects.

I can second that. I can second that because in the Texas market, I get asked that all the time. Structural engineers for residential. I know a lot of them on the commercial side, but not a lot on the residential side.

So that is very true. Yeah, and and it's so rare actually. So I what we will be talking about um trade organizations like um we're a member of Neri, and I literally when I joined Neri, I had them actually create a new category. Like they have all the categories of the different, you know, like Masons, um, general contractors, plumbers.

I had them literally um create another category for structural engineers because I am literally the only one in the southeastern Wisconsin Nary. Um so we're a we're a rare breed. Yeah. So we're not gonna talk a lot about marketing because all Roger has to do to grow his business is answer his phone, you know, so that's really easy.

Please don't call. But so talking about Nari or Nari, however you want to say it, I understand both is legitimate. It just depends um where you're from. Yeah.

But so tell us a little bit about how you first got involved and and why you decided to join. Yeah. Well, so first I first got involved right from the very beginning when I when I um uh incorporated the the company, and I knew that I I I so started 10 years ago and knew that the the networking uh aspect of business is just really important. And so I was convinced of that.

And I, you know, in in joining, I just you know found out other benefits of being a part of the organization and and have I haven't been I've been off and on a member of Nary. It hasn't been continuous the last 10 years because sometimes I literally get so busy I just don't even have time to invest in in the organization. So um yeah, so that it's it's that's kind of where where I've I've always realized that being a part of these organizations are uh are the is very beneficial.

Yeah, because there's another one that you're a member of, right? I'm also a member of the Metropolitan Builders Association in Milwaukee. In Milwaukee, yeah. Yeah.

And that one you also like. I I like that one a lot. And um, yeah, so on in both of them I'm in I'm involved in some of the subcommittees, like I I do some arbitration in and mediation for both of those organizations. So you get involved in different things as you become more you know of a professional in this it's a way of giving back.

Yeah, yeah. Also, right, yeah. But so for those listeners who have not been involved in any trade organizations, like what would you say is the real value beyond networking that these organizations provide? Yeah.

Um, so there's several several things that come to mind with that. I'd say, well, networking is obviously huge. So you can't, I mean, that's that's why I first got involved, and as I get involved, you realize the um some it's uh it's an incredible way. I would say the next biggest benefit of being a a member of one of these organizations is that it's it it gives legitimacy to your business.

Um I will often even I will if I don't have so oftentimes homeowners I uh they they contract me to do some work and or do the consulting and said, well, who do you have anybody you recommend to do this this project? And I've worked with several um um remodelers, and I have a sense for what kind of projects eat the remodelers that that I work with, um, where they where they specialize. Some like the smaller projects, some just can't be bothered with them, they'd rather do the bigger project.

So it's like I try to match the project with with them. So if I don't have a specific remodeler that I know would would be good for the project, I will often just say, go to the Nary website. Remodelers on the Nary website are gonna be a higher standard than just doing a Google search. You know, a Google search, you don't know who you're gonna get.

But remodelers who are a part of Nary or MBA or in any other trade organization, they're already invested in, you know, the so they have the continuing education program, which is great, but it just kind of sets you out, uh, sets you apart as being you're serious about this. You're more credible, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

And um, that leads us to the next question. Like, how can designers and remodelers actually get value out of their local Mary chapter or any chapter of a professional organization that they're part of? Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, you know, it's not it's not rocket science, you know, is it is it you you get out what you put in.

And the I mean a I would say a bare minimum is each one of these do have like a monthly meetup and get involved with that. You'll you'll you'll meet the core people of of that chapter of that organization, and you continue to talk to them over the months. You get involved, you um you really do, you have to put time in. You have to set time aside.

This is this is not after hours, don't think of it as that. Don't think of this as extra, think of this as business development. And if you're serious about developing your business, you have to do things like this. It's just there's just I mean, we're humans and humans thrive on connection.

And I will call you because we had that conversation last night about something that is a it's it's really kind of uncanny how often that happens. It's like, oh yeah, here's my card. You know, we just you know spend an spend a couple of spend an hour talking and getting to know each other. Here, take my card, I'm an engineer, and you get that phone call the next day.

It's like you wouldn't believe it. It's like, well, yeah, I actually do believe it. I have a project that I need you on. Or this literally happened.

It's like, oh, oh, you can't go home from this meeting. We have to drive to a job site now because I need you right now. It's like that that actually does happen, but it you know, and this is in the context of okay, so this that may be unique to an engineer being in a residential. It's like that that really is a rare, you don't find a lot of engineers who are frankly who are willing to do the residential um remodeled stuff because that's just it's the commercial is a lot easier, you know.

You get a big big commercial project, you know what you're gonna be doing for the next month, you know. So that's that's really easy. But this is I find it really challenging because every project is new. It's you gotta be creative, and and I I've really just enjoyed that part of it.

That's really why I'm I'm a part of this. Yeah. To me, it feels like it's a really good niche to be in because like you have like no competition. Yeah, I mean it's like crazy.

Yeah, no, it's yeah. I'm like, there's like you're pretty true. Yeah, you could crow this as big as you want. And you if you could clone yourself a few times, there would still be enough work, right?

Yeah. And if you ever hit out Texas, let me know because we need it I would I was just about to put that caveat. I'm only licensed in Wisconsin and and so this is my kingdom. When when he thinks about franchising, we'll yeah, franchise.

I I could go through the process of getting getting licensed in any state, but that's just I'm I'm already I mean, I'm I'm busy and I can't I can't learn other markets. That's another thing. You know, is it's you you learn your your particular market. It's it is very unique.

Like in Wisconsin, other other parts of the the nation have just other um um have uh different code requirements and like for example, okay, so just across the border in northern particular in northern Illinois, every residential needs to be designed by it needs to have a professional uh stamp on it. So it's like so basically in northern Illinois it's almost like commercial work. You have to have the it's gotta be up to commercial code. Every every residence is like that.

And I I don't know where the line is, but I know in southern Illinois is it's it's not like that, but in the at least in the Chicago metro area. So every every market is different, and uh so I had I don't know that market, I don't have the brain capacity to learn new markets. Yeah, I'm already busy, so so it's really specialized. It is, it is, yeah.

That let's talk a little bit more about um like engineering and where you come in. And actually before we met, I had very little understanding of how structural engineering fits into design. And I remember you'd always say, I designed this project, and I'm like, What? But you're an engineer.

You're not designer. I get it now. I get it. Um, but so from your perspective as an engineer, what are the biggest mistakes homeowners or professional remodelers make before they bring in an engineer?

Um it kind of it gets it gets down to planning. Um the more that you plan, the more that you can communicate, the better a project a project goes. And you almost I will often come into a project where things have gone bad. Like I've opened up something and you know something has gone wrong.

Okay, so like just as an example, there's a couple of weeks ago, got a got a phone call from a contractor that had done an addition, like a sunroom on a uh sunroom addition onto uh an existing house. And the building inspector called it out because the roof, they had they had just put in like a a okay, I'm gonna get a little technical, but they put a ridge beam instead or a ridge board instead of a ridge beam. So it's not really designed to s to support the entire ridge of the of the addition.

And they're like, well, we just this is how we always have done it. It's like, well, you didn't realize that you had a vaulted ceiling, and that kind of negates the the assumption that you can just do color ties, you could do ridge board and colour ties without a without a flat ceiling. You you can't. It's not is that the the assumption of just using a ridge board it is premised on you have a flat ceiling that goes with it.

And the the building inspector called it out, and it almost went to litigation because the homeowner was very upset, you know, that the changes that we're gonna have to do was gonna significantly change the look of the of the sun room, and and I so I kind of came in there, was able to settle. I mean, I was almost like a counselor at that I I I put on my uh my arbitrator's hat at that point and said, Okay, I understand you're you know it and it it really again it came down to miscommunication.

Yeah, it's like at that point things were heated, people stopped listening to each other, and I was able to come in as a you know a you know non-biased third party and say, well, what is it going to take to fix this? And we actually we I used my my um 3D anal uh analysis software to say, okay, typically, you know, the code doesn't allow this, uh except for unless I've a structural engineer analyzes this, and we were able to just make a couple of modifications and maintain the look of the place and and and I when I put my stamp on it, then everybody get was happy.

The the the building inspector was happy, the homeowners are happy, and it didn't go to litigation. So it all worked out. That worked out really well. Yeah.

But so basically it's it's you usually are called in when it's too late. Yeah, I mean, okay, so then then that person learn that that that um remodeler learn is uh okay, so now he has me come in to to look at other projects. You just realize, oh, I can't make these assumptions, and it's worth it's worth maybe having it sometimes it is it's as simple as they they send me over the plans saying this is what we're intending to to to build. Do you see a problem with that?

Um another thing I thought of too is um you know it's like okay, the the whole an easy example is is uh you know removing a wall. And is the the big question is is this a load-bearing wall? Because that that that's a problem. And yeah, we can definitely, you know, size a beam that will fit in the ceiling.

Like if you want a flat ceiling across, completely remove it and no no beam exposed. We can you know that it's a little it's a little more restrictive, but we can design something that gives you a flat ceiling. But also just uh another maybe thing to be aware of is um just because it's you you realize it's not a it's a not a load-bearing wall, it might still be structural because it might actually be a lateral bracing, a wind brace wall. It might be be being used as that.

So just because it's not load-bearing, it still might be structural. So it's yeah, yeah. So you just send over the plans and look at it, look uh send the plans to an engineer, and they can look at it for a couple hundred dollars. They can look at it and say, okay, what you're what you're intending to do is it'll work, or you know, we suggest making these modifications.

Instead of having to fix it after the fact, which is uh obviously a lot more expensive. Yeah. And oftentimes, I mean, this this is kind of my my secret goal on on all projects is I try to save the builder or the homeowner at least my fees in the project. It's like if I can do a thing smarter for them, they can save a lot of money.

And they can even save multiple, many times it's multiples of of what my fee would have uh is, you know. So it you know, I think, oh, I don't I can't afford to have an engineer. Actually, sometimes you can't afford not to have an engineer look at it. Yeah.

Yeah. Jason's nodding. Yeah. Also, another thing, too.

Okay, so this is also my my my uh tongue-in-cheek definition of what an engineer does. So between engineers and architects, is architects, um they want, you know, they come up with a design of what what it what is what they want it to look like, and engineers uh come behind them and say, no, this is what it actually takes to to to make the physics work. That's true. I've taught a lot of students that would design things that practically can't be built.

But yeah, it's good. Um so I think that's really helpful, and I'm sure all of our listeners understand way better all the things we just talked about. I'm like the only um I'm the only person that's not really working in this trade. But it does make good sense to me from uh an overall perspective.

But so what in your uh mind separates the remodeling companies that run great projects from the ones that actually struggle? The okay way above everything else is communication. I mean, almost every bad project you boil it down to there was a breakdown of communication at some point. Um smaller projects you can get away with, just kind of like, well, let's just open up walls and see what see what we find.

But you know, beyond that, it's like the more that you can communicate and and uh let people know what to expect before things happen, before you know, before their expectations don't meet what your expectations were, the better the product is gonna go. So communicate, communicate, communicate. That really is is such a I mean, and it's it's like you know, you nobody ever does it right because we just sometimes we make these assumptions like this this is so obvious, I don't even think to talk about this, you know.

So, but you know, you you it's when something goes wrong that you realize, okay, I did I I didn't when you do the postmortem on on a project and it's like, oh yeah, this is where we could have done better, and it's almost always that's what it comes down to. So true for a lot of things and a lot of businesses in life. So that being said, I mean engineers are not generally well known for being excellent communicators. Um I I would say um there's a so there's a joke.

So I think that that can that can be Misconception, but what are some of the misconceptions that people have about structural engineers and what they are and what they're not, or what they can help with and what they can't help with? Well, I mean, again, I think that the the biggest thing is that you think it's you can't afford to have an engineer look at it. Um I think because we can come up with solutions that that I'm I'm actually surprised sometimes when it's like uh when I start talking about so when I go to a job site, I'll I'll try to come up with two, three, you know, different possible ways that that something can be constructed.

And it's just and it's really surprising to me sometimes. That can be done? You know, it's like they is things that they just haven't even considered, I I'll just offer as oh yeah, that's we if we do if we do if we change this, this, this, whatever it is, you know, on the plan, we can we can make we can remove that column that is really just kind of right in front of the doorway that that you really want to get rid of. But it's like we can get rid of that, for example.

You know, it's like and you know, sometimes so um it just you know, so that adds a lot of value to the final product. We can all uh like I said before, it can oftentimes save save money on the project by just doing things smarter rather than you know changing if you can just change something, you know, and and allow us to use this as a load-bearing wall or move this two feet or whatever. Something that's in the end, it might be inconsequential to the to the final um final home, but for an engineer, it's like well this will open up a possibility that that we can then remove that wall or you know, that kind of thing.

It's like it's it's you just never really know the things that are possible. Yeah. I have a great example for this. Is actually when we remodeled our basement, and a good friend of mine who's an interior designer was here, and she had ideas of how to do things.

And then when you and her talked together, um like we moved one door and we ended up with a much bigger, like a real huge bedroom. And yeah, I don't know, they the entire design completely changed, and I would have never been able to come up with that. But we eliminated the hallway, which uh I think hallways are just huge, that was such a waste of time. All that room went into the bedroom.

So so having that communication between the designer and the engineer architect, if you have one, I can totally see how that's huge. It was very beneficial in our case, think. Yeah. No, I think this is really good information.

Jason, do you have any questions? Yeah, I have one. So as an architect, I actually hear about contractors and engineers, and they have misconceptions about who they are, what they do. So, what are some misconceptions you hear about engineers and what you do?

Well, I think one thing that I hear consistently, and and again, I think it's kind of a it's kind of a running joke, but you know, there's uh there's always a little barb behind a joke, is like, oh, engineers just all they do is they stamp, they stamp plans. You know, they look at them, stamp plans, and then move on. And it's like, no, there's a lot of there's a you have to be able to see a project in in three dimensions in your mind and understand the load paths and how things are coming down to ground and and if I think that that that can add so much value um to a project when once once you understand that okay you're all on the same team trying to get trying to get the best product out there and and you know so I think yeah, a lot of I think also another another thing that I kind of come up with is come up against is that um well this is the way we've always done it.

I think it was like you know, or even like okay, another one is just kind of a a subset of that is well this building is 70 years old, so it's gotta be okay. I was like, uh no. They do actually have a life site life cycle and they need need renovation. One question I ask all guests where we're on, the younger you, if you were standing or sitting next to him right now, what would you say to him about either getting into the profession that you're in or heading in a different direction?

Yeah. Yeah, I would say um there was a lot of fear in in starting and on starting my own business. And I kind of I kind of in the back of my mind, I just I knew that this is a good business model. I just was very convinced of that.

Uh, but I had a young family, and you know, you're leaving a good corporate job and heading out into the into the unknown, you know, and so that that can be fearful. But I just I was convinced that it's a good business model, it can really do a lot of good things, you know, and um and it could make financial sense. So I would just say uh a lie I was telling myself back then is I'm not ready. You know, younger me, you're not ready for this to start out on your own.

And you think I just need to do need a another year or two or three or ten of experience, you know. And the truth is you you're kind of never ready, fully ready. You know, there's never a good time to do it, just do it. Um you know, believe in yourself.

You know, I think that there's a yeah so many things. And also learn learn your limitations. Don't try to don't jump into that multi-million dollar project as your first project. You know, it's like learn, learn things, make those, make those connections.

Those are so critical. Join those, bringing it back to you know, join Neri, join a Metropolitan Builders Association, whatever you whatever is vibe, you know, vibrant in your in your area. Just you know, go and talk to people. Actually, I'm actually just uh just recently I joined the AIA, the architect.

What's what does AIA stand for? American Institute of Architects. That's it. And I want to do the the meet and greet uh with them.

I just I haven't I haven't had the time. I mean those those monthly meetups come and they go, and there's always something that just prevents me from doing that. But I'm I'm committed to doing that, you know, and it's just yeah, it's a it's it's good because I know architects, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but architects would love to talk to engineers. Like, I you know, I we have these projects, you know, that kind of thing.

Think outside the box. Don't think of the you know, you know, Nary isn't the only option. There are there are just just there are those opportunities. Let people know what you're what you're passionate about.

You know, get get those opportunities to talk about your passion. If you're a a passionate builder, you know, that that's contagious. Let people know you're you know what what you're all about and and you will develop really good relationships very quickly, I believe. That ties into marketing, making sure everybody knows what you do.

Because I can't tell you how many times I talk to people that say, oh, my XYZ didn't even know I did this. Why not? You know, because they can meet someone that may be able to hand you a job, but yeah, you need to market, you need to get out there. Yeah.

I know you don't want to be contacted, but we also ask at the end at the end if any of our listeners are want to reach out to you, how do they do so? So probably um you could probably by email. Um, so it's Roger R O D G E R at uh epong engineering.com.

Or um that e-p-a-n-g-en-g-r dot com is the website. Um probably is that's that's the best way to to get and yeah, if you have any questions, absolutely, I would love to talk with you and and um and see you um explore your journey too. Yeah, that's always exciting. That's that's kind of a flip side of of these of these uh organizations.

When you when you've been in them for a while, it's like you you start taking on more of that mentoring role. And I love that. I I I love the mentoring aspect of it. So please do contact and and uh I'm be excited to see see hear your about your journey.

See how we turn that around at the beginning of the episode. He did want you to contact now. You can reach out. So like magic.

It's like it's all you, Jason. Roger, we appreciate your time. And for anybody listening, if you want to reach out to him, please do so. So we hope to hear and see you all in two weeks on design discussions.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Designer Discussions and all of the helpful information. Subscribe to our podcast, leave us a review, and share it with your friends. We look forward to having you back next week for more information on the podcast and the marketing studio. Visit designer discussions.

com and follow us on social media.